Commercial training in Scotland

[gordonquinn]

Hi guys,

First time post, please be gentle, and I have done my research so I hope I am not reposting like a n0ob.

I am 22 and from just outside Glasgow, I am a IT Engineer and have a Bsc in Computer Networking and Systems Support. My plan since 16 was go to uni as early as possible, get a job, earn money and pay for my training. This way I always had a fallback, and it is much less risky.

I have now built up a sound career foundation in IT, so now proceesing to stage 2. I am looking to form a 5 year plan to become a commercial pilot, going the modular route, from 0 to hero (or licensed pilot, I'm not sure what my next evolution is).

I have had a few hours flying to try different schools, and done my research into what the schools offer.
The first school I have found is Leading Edge in Cumbernauld, a small school that offers PPL, CPL, I/R and MEP, ATPL theory I plan to do distance learning.
The second is a bit further away, but seems to be a much better school, it is Tayside Aviation in Dundee, again offering the same as above.

Has anyone trained in either of these schools? How do they stand up against other schools?

These are my local options, however another option would be to take leave from work and do the training abroad, or even just down South in England. Has anyone done this kind of thing before?

Finally, the big cost question, my calculations have been broken down as below, could I ask for some feedback on this? Are my costs realistic? Or naive? Also is there anything I have missed out?

PPL + night: £9000
ATPL Theory: £999
Hour building: £5000
I/R: £13000
CPL: £5000
MEP rating: £2500

Total: £40499 + about £5000 buffer.

Paying for this, I am planning to save £15000 over the next 3 years, then loan the remaining £30000.

As for when training is complete, I have a few ideas for building the hours or progressing to a standard where I might just be employable by an airline. Some ideas are working in Africa, or here as a FI.

Thank you for reading, and for any feedback.

Feel free to tear me to shreds!

[ABZ777]

Hello! I am in a similar position to you, I have completed my PPL and have now moved to the ATPL distance learning phase. I have little experience with your cost estimations for the CPL/ME/IR, as I am yet to consider myself what to do once I have finished the ATPLs and gained the required number of hours. The CAA exam fees mount to approx £800 on their own, and as far as I am aware you need to be part of an approved modular distance learning course (eg Bristol, ProPilot, CATS, Oxford etc), which are in the region of £999-£2500 for notes and classroom based sessions. All the best - by your post you clearly have a well thought out plan and are entering the industry with your eyes open! :ok:

With regards to Tayside at Dundee, I did my PPL in Sherburn, and now living back home, I drive 60 miles in order to fly there - they are a great setup and the airfield has an appropriately good mix of commercial/GA aircraft in uncontrolled airspace to be busy but not as busy as Glasgow/Edinburgh/Aberdeen. As far as I am aware Loganair are closely affiliated with the instructors at Tayside, a lot of them head off to F/O positions - lucky guys!

Also - I notice that you haven't factored in the costs for an MCC or for additional CAA fees (of which there are many), those expensive ones being the class 1 medical, licence issuance, exam fees, etc. etc.

[4redsyourdead]

Hi there

I completed all my flight training from PPL to CPL and MEIR at Leading Edge at Cumbernauld and Perth.I highly recommend them and would not hesitate to recommend friends and family.They offered a good price, good location and above all a personal experience that made me feel like a very valued customer something I felt was lacking at certain other facilities.There instructors are highly experienced and I felt I was very well taught. Proof is in the pudding and they got me first time passes in everything including IR and CPL and I have now been heard back from Ryanair asking for my CV.

Go for a visit I'm sure Allan or Liz will be glad to show you their facilities.

[tiger88]

Have a look at the below thread, if you havent already, for more info of the commercial training at Perth. I would highly recommend them, excellent first time pass rates and competitive prices to name a couple reasons.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/476671-air-service-training-path.html

[Luke SkyToddler]

I was a senior-ish instructor at Tayside back in the day and I do recommend them, they are a good honest outfit with a really good standard of training and Dundee is a cracking airfield to train at.

They've also got the agreement with Loganair to supply F/O's, which more or less guarantees you an airline job once you've completed your training and instructed there yourself for a couple of seasons.

[gordonquinn]

Folks, appreciate all your replies, very much appreciated.

From what you guys have said, I'm glad to see I've got some good choices around me, although I will probably need to add a bit to my budget plans to cover other fees as ABZ777 has pointed out. Out of interest, do you think an extra £5000 would cover these? Totaling to £50k, is this a reasonable budget?

On another financial note, do you think the chances of getting an unsecured loan for about £30k, about 3/4 years from now (making me 25/26) is possible?
My credit history is very good, in my student days I had quite a chunk of debt, but it worked out better as I paid it all off, and never missed any payments.

With regards to the Longair agreement, Tayside would be out of my way, but at the end of the day, if the extra commute increases my chances of a job at the end, it is worth it, but how reliable do you think it is? Do you think it is worth the 2 hour commute?

Thanks again folks

[RTN11]

Your budget is too low, it will be much closer to £60k

PPL + night: £9000 This is realistic if all goes to plan

ATPL Theory: £999 Nowhere will do it for this little, try more than double plus exam fees and accomodation

Hour building: £5000 Try doubling it

I/R: £13000 more like £19k

CPL: £5000 More like £9k

MEP rating: £2500 realistic

+£2k exam fees at least (PPL, IR and ME tests plus £65? per written exam x14)

If you do choose Dundee you may be able to find a cheap B&B, possibly £15-£20 per night which may be cheaper than the 4 hour round trip to your home. I know a fair number of people who operated this way.

The max unsecured loan you are likely to get is around £25k. To get more you would have to get more than one loan and then the rate will go up significantly. I know people who have done this, and it has worked, but if it doesn't work out you could find yourself in trouble.

[BAe 146-100]

The above poster is quite correct, also unless you can afford it without getting loads of unsecured loans at terrible interest rates I wouldn't personally bother at present. The best case scenario, you manage to get a job then have to fork out another 30K for a type rating, the worst case you can't and then you’re sitting on 60Ks worth of debt.

Flying has been and always will be a money game, unless you are one of the very few lucky to get a sponsorship (even then you’re still paying it back one way or another) you have to be in the position (especially in the present climate) where money really isn't a worry. If you are going into it with the pressure of money I'm not sure that really is worth it.

Best of luck.

[Luke SkyToddler]

From a financial point of view, if you do go down the Tayside route and try to join the ranks of their instructors and onwards & upwards to Loganair, you won't need a multi-engine rating or IR for the first year or so anyway. You'll be flat out logging maximum hours instructing RAF cadets in the season - it's even possible to save some money during the summer months.

Yes you'll ultimately end up spending the money on the IR but it might ease the pain by staggering it a year or two.

[skyhigher]

Some great advice for you to consider but I would be careful in basing any part of your decision on the possibility of a job with an airline. Nothing is guaranteed within aviation. While is it is good to hear that tayside have an agreement in place with Logan air I would not for a second factor that in to the decision making process. NOT FOR A SECOND! Indeed LE recently provided some new FOs to Logan from there instructors.

Both tayside and LE are good providers. The fact that both will most likely use the same examiner for your commercial exams means both will have to train you to a high standard, that much is assured. You will find that people who used to work at tayside now work at LE, and possibly vice versa.

Best of luck.

[gordonquinn]

Guys,

Thanks for all the advice, very useful, and very much appreciated.

I think one of the main points for me there was whether to chase a potential job and base a decision on it, for example going to a school because of their links to an airline. Probs a risky move, and not worth basing a decision on unless it is not going to be significantly inconvenient.

RTN11, I hate to be cheeky here, but could you please elaborate on your comments on cost? I trust you know what you are talking about, but could you please explain why you feel £5000 isn't enough for hour building and why the CPL and I/R would cost so much more than I thought.

[4redsyourdead]

Hi Gordonquii,

I agree with above poster regarding costs.Here's my break down of costs whilst Training in Scotland.

PPL around £7000 Cumbernauld ( 2007 - 2010 )
Night Rating £900 Prestwick (2011)
Hour Building ( 100 hours @ £85 average per hour ) £8500 Cumbernauld ( 2010- 2011)
ATPLs Bristol 2500 + exams fees = £3500 (2010)
CPL MEIR 23000 exams fees and aircraft hire 3000= £26000 Perth ( 2012)
MCC/JOC Dublin around £3800 (2012)

This is around what I spent not including landing fees, hotels , flights Ect

[PPRuNeUser0178]

And if you want to instruct you need to factor in an Instructor rating, when I did mine at Tayside this cost approx £5000, and that was about 14 years ago!

What job are you targeting as an Airline pilot?

Starting in Turbo props is great experience and Tayside do have a tie in with Loganair.

The reason I ask this is the Elephant in the room these days: The Type Rating,

After paying 50-60K for your CPL IR ME fATPL and MCC you will not be qualified to fly any commercial type.

In my world that is what the cancer of cadet schemes and flexi crew is all about, further down the food chain ay places like Loganair I am not sure what the arrangements are for a Saab340 type rating but it cannot be as financially crippling as the stories I hear from FOs in my flight deck.

The other thing to consider if you do go Turbo prop route is where next after that? Due to people like EasyJet and Ryanair killing the career with CTC, Oxford and Parc, the old traditional career ladder is log jammed, no one is really moving. Occasionally BA take a few, Monarch are trying a little expansion and taking pilots in an honorable fashion once more, but it is no where near the numbers required to see proper career progress in the UK again, it is very very bleak.

I have two young boys who love everything to do with planes, airports and flying. I pray every week that they do not want to be pilots.

Be very aware that you could end up with a shiny fATPL, :mad: loads of debt and no job. And while you are in that situation you will have to keep your IR current every year too! £££

The only way into an airliners cockpit in any large scale these days seems to be CTC for newbies. But the reality of the "employment" when you get there will be far removed from the glossy brochure selling the dream they will send you now if you ask them.

You mention commute, Our FO's get told there base changes all the time, Germany France UK shuffle goes on a bit for a host of reasons, you move at your own cost and time for a job that is not permanent as 46 of our FO's are finding out this winter.

By all means be positive, but have a target in mind and make sure those eyes are FULLY open. For young newbie pilots at the moment, and considerable foreseeable future, the UK is NOT a nice place to be.

[RTN11]

RTN11, I hate to be cheeky here, but could you please elaborate on your comments on cost? I trust you know what you are talking about, but could you please explain why you feel £5000 isn't enough for hour building and why the CPL and I/R would cost so much more than I thought.

You need to build at least 100 hours. If you can find someone who will rent you an airworthy aircraft for £50 an hour all in then fair enough, a far more realistic figure is £120+

The way a school sets out it's prices in their brochure is advantageous to them. It takes into account only the bare minimum.

I forget the exact figures, but a CPL is 25 hours, around 10-15 of which can be done in a simple aircraft which is how their price is set. In reality you will want to do far more time in the more complex Arrow or whatever, and this will ultimately cost more.

For the IR the same applies. I believe up to 10 hours can be done in an FNTP1, which may be what their "from" price includes at around £110 an hour. This is rubbish, and no more than 7 hours will be of any use, so you will move straight onto the more expensive FNPT2 (£160/hr+), and when you're ahead of the ability of that you will want to move onto the far more expensive aircraft at £400+ per hour. This will all add to the bare minimum price quoted.

One last thing, a lot of schools I have seen simply offer the aircraft price x the number of hours needed for IR. The CAA have been very clear that taxi time will no longer count as IR time, so you need to add 10 mins to each flight, at the full cost of the aircraft in a Seneca will be around £80 per flight.

There are many ways a school will entice you to part with money that you may not realise until you are fully committed, then it's either pay the balance or leave with nothing. I'm not putting either of these schools down, just saying that in general you have to be careful and fully research things before parting with the cash.

[flystrathclyde]

Firstly, I need to state I have a vested interest as I run ACS Aviation and Leading Edge which is now part of ACS.

We do not openly promote ties with airlines as it is unfair to create a 'promise' unless it can be solidly backed up.

Some facts we can clarify:-

We are Air Service Trainings (Perth College) selected partner to provide PPL and Commercial training as part of their PATH program.

Our sister company is Air Charter Scotland who have a worldwide AOC. While we do not heavily promote he link they have already taken several of our students/instructors, and provide direct support of our FTO.

Loganair regularly recruit students/instructors from us as they do with our competitors. Several of their staff including Training Captains are active members with us.

With Leading Edge becoming part of ACS Aviation and our recent addition of a well known AOC we have a great depth on knowledge and support.

HOWEVER, there are no promises in aviation when it comes to a students future. I would suggest you visit where you are considering and talk to the people there including students, past and present. Make your judgement on what is REALLY available to you now, not on potential promises for the future.

[Piloto2011]

gordonquinn,

I like your style! :ok:

You do sound pretty levelheaded for a 22-year-old.

Here's my two cents worth:

I have done it for the budget you suggested. But prices have gone up so maybe a little too optimistic I'm afraid. Then again, there's ways to get your training done cheaper.

Train abroad. Or upgrade from gliding to powered flight, etc.

There's talk about building hours. Ever thought about buying a share? That can help you halve the cost.

By spending only the bare minimum on your training you might have to accept the fact that your training may be to a lower standard, i.e. training in southern Europe. In hindsight mine wasn't quite to a high standard except for my CPL training, which was received at a UK FTO. School and instructor were par excellence. But all was part of my game plan: train cheap, start at the bottom of the latter and progress. I might have gotten simply extremely lucky with all but you know what, for me it's worked out rather well so far.

Don't forget to budget for three to five years after training to help you with your living expenses, stay current, etc., if you want to be in a position to accept ANY flying job. That said attending interviews is also rather costly, i.e. there's travel and accom expenses, sim prep sessions to be paid for, etc. It does sum up.

There's other ways of saving money. For example, having flown 500 hours multi crew with one of the UK air taxi operators and the CAA will grant you a MCC, at no charge.

There's a free FI scholarship available in the UK. Maybe not easy to come by but it's free. All you'll have to do is come up with a great motivation letter and interview well. I have met people who have done it. Seven grand course all paid for.

If you decide to take the progressive career path: try to get as much PIC time as possible right from square one so you will get used to making decisions. This can be learned in no bigger than a glider.

NEVER EVER pay up front for training. I have met people having lost all their money when their FTO went bust. Worst of all, no license. It is not uncommon. Certainly not in Europe in the current climate.

Should you ever opt to go for a jet SSTR make sure you will get hired on that type as it will most likely disqualify you for any TP job. Better, just don't bother doing it. Earn your place.

Be 100% flexible. Be prepared to go wherever the job is. No married man's life for the first few years.

Network, network, network.

My last tip for you and others looking to train: there's a company in the Far East that has been, and to my knowledge still is, hiring low-timers. All you'll need to have is a CPL IR. No ME required, no ATPLs required. In the U.S., you can get the whole thing for about $30,000. Maybe worth a shot.

Good luck!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Oh really piloto and pray tell what far east company might that be, that hires people without even an ME rating?

(I've got no vested interest in stealing your job - I've got a very nice job and 8000 hours - but I have lived in the far east for a few years now, and I haven't heard of such a thing :E )

[Piloto2011]

Really. SET aircraft.