CTC icp

[pdn83]

I have been offered a place to train with CTC on their icp contract. I am fully aware of the process and how it differs from the wings scheme, just want to see if there is anybody else out there who went this route too? Thanks.

[FANS]

Why are you not doing the Wings Route....?

[nabanoba]

I've just had my application passed for the iCP route as well. Waiting on an interview date now.

I didn't get accepted for a Wings interview, although I'm tempted to go study for a year and give it another shot. Hopefully by then my CV will be stronger, I'll have more money saved and there will be a clearer picture of what's happening in the Euro zone.

[FANS]

Does not being accepted for the Wings route suggest that you're even less likely to get an airline role in this recession?

Unless you can afford to gamble with this money, you should not be going this route if you have not demonstrated the aptitude/experience etc. for CTC's initial assessment.

[PURPLE PITOT]

FANS, they will not listen. Heads firmly in the sand, arses in the air waiting for the inevitable!

[Fostex]

Indeed, before dropping £100k on a career follow the best advice of all...

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/487076-do-ppl-first.html

[jalcp104]

Hi pdn83,

I applied for the CTC Wings Cadet scheme a while ago now, passed everything with flying colours (That being; Group interview, PILAPT, Maths exam) except from the "personal interview" at the end. Following feedback from the recruitment team, they said I couldn't provide enough detailed evidence of working under pressure, achieving goals...etc.
After challenging them on the fact that I'm only 20 years old, and haven't accumulated a massive amount of life experience to backup the questions they asked, they still weren't budging, however from the start they were very happy to offer me the iCP, which I have taken.
As a result of not getting through the final interview stage, the ONLY reason they can't offer you Wings Cadet status is because you are a 'risk' to their company and therefore they are not in a position to offer you the £40,000 bond protection seen on the Cadet course.

Following a lot of discussion with CTC, and personal research, CTC clarified to me that the only difference between the Cadet course and iCP is the bond protection and included AQC course at the end of the Intermediate stage.
From my point of view, If you've gotten through CTC's extremely tough selection and are truly passionate about achieving your dream, then I see no reason why the iCP course is being scrutinized.

If you complete the iCP to CTC's satisfactory standards then you are eligible to apply for the ATP course, where by on acceptance you are in the EXACT same boat as the cadet's, with the exact same chance of employment through their partner airlines.

Regards

[PURPLE PITOT]

There seems to be a growth in this sector at the moment. The want it now wannabes, who do no research, throw large sums of other peoples money at ctc etc, and refuse to listen to anyone with experience outside of the flight school they have just signed up to.

We can call them ostriches. Head firmly in the sand with their arses in the air waiting for the inevitable to happen!

[nabanoba]

FANS you have absolutely no idea of my background, my qualifications or the reason I wasn't accepted. I think I do have the aptitude for this route (as does everyone else!) and my experience can be worked on. I am doing all I possibly can to minimise my gamble, but a gamble must still be taken at some point if I want to become a pilot.

The iCP route has a decent placement record. Much better than most other FTO's. This in itself is a good reason to do it.

Also people like you and PURPLE PITOT have been offering the same advice as others on the CTC Wings thread for years. Telling anyone who thinks about going for it that they should run away from aviation and that they're wasting their money. But the people who started the Wings course 2 or 3 years ago in the depth of the recession are currently employed as pilots. All of them.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Did it occur to any of you that the likes of FANS and myself might be training captains with a bit of commercial savvy. No one is saying stay away from aviation. There are smarter ways of doing things.

[FANS]

I think I do have the aptitude for this route (as does everyone else!)

CTC Wings don't appear to agree. Who is everyone else - BA FPP? GAPAN? Flybe MPL?

Everyone seems to think they have the aptitude but many people are confusing this with their ability to access £100k.


my experience can be worked on

It would be prudent to work on that experience before spending £100k.

a gamble must still be taken at some point if I want to become a pilot.

It isn't a risk free game, but in today's market and given you couldn't make wings or have a tagged scheme, what you're doing is not a balanced decision.


The iCP route has a decent placement record. Much better than most other FTO's. This in itself is a good reason to do it

Wings has a better placement record than iCP as does all of the tagged schemes - why don't you go for one of those! Is it because you will not be capable of getting on one of those schemes?

the people who started the Wings course 2 or 3 years ago in the depth of the recession are currently employed as pilots. All of them.

Many of them are contractors, some won't be working this winter.

Is there any fact that would make you not sign up?
If you've got the aptitude, why are you not joining a tagged scheme?

Lastly, I do not wish to come across as being unduly harsh but I really think you need to think this through more, and take independent tests to confirm that you absolutely do have the aptitude and appropriate skillsets to get employed after £100k.

[nabanoba]

I think we seem to agree FANS but you've misinterpreted me a little. When I said:

'I think I do have the aptitude for this route (as does everyone else!)'

I meant that every other candidate will think that she/he has the required aptitude. Not that everyone thinks I have. I have indeed applied for a GAPAN test. Also I have already stated that I am willing to wait to improve my experience and get on the Wings course.

I won't go on a tagged scheme as I won't get in. I didn't study science in school and had a poor attitude towards study when I was young. This doesn't mean that I don't have the aptitude, simply that I was immature and have matured since. I am thinking of going back to school for a year to prove that.

I would take the iCP route ahead of the Wings route because their isn't too much difference in the two. You need to pass an interview to get on the AQC which the majority of iCP candidates pass. The two courses are very similar hence why I'm considering the iCP route.

[Big Pistons Forever]

As someone involved in flight training in Canada I try to keep an eye on what is going on in other parts of the world.

My 02 cents as a totally disinterested outsider.

CTC has a problem. They have these exclusive provider contracts with airlines which is great except the airlines understandably want a quality product. This forces CTC to have a fairly rigorous selection process. Problem is the number of applicant who are both above the quality line and have the big bucks is declining as the word about the job uncertainties and crap working conditions is getting out.

So what to do with those punters walking in that don't have the aptitude but do have the money ? Well CTC sure doesn't want them to spend the 100 grand elsewhere so they just redirect them to a new scheme that involves taking all their money but without having to take responsibility for the product.

[nabanoba]

Hit the nail on the head I'd say Big Pistons!

I would add though that the iCP has the caveat of having a chance to be placed with the Wings cadets if you prove yourself during training and pass an interview.

[doz111]

Correct me if I'm wrong by my understanding was that you have a clear disadvantage if you have to go down the icp route rather than wings route.

The disadvantage being that after completing the basic training on icp you would have to apply to go down the ATP route, which would mean having to be successful on a selection day, paying more money and being put in the ATP hold pool.

As far as I'm aware the ATP hold pool is only utilised once the wings hold pool is empty, therefore every time a wings course finished you'd be put behind the 25 or so wings cadets that would get priority over you (and that's assuming there are not more wings cadets already in the hold pool).

[jalcp104]

I would add though that the iCP has the caveat of having a chance to be placed with the Wings cadets if you prove yourself during training and pass an interview.

Essentially, yes;

CTC's structure goes as follow:

If you wish to apply to ANY of there courses, you HAVE to pass there Group Interview, Maths Exam and PILAPT test, which is there standard selection day.
By doing this, you have proved the aptitude they require, and therefore are then eligible to the iCP course. In order to be approved for the Cadet course (i.e, the £40,000 security bond) you then have to sit a one to one interview.

I wish the likes of 'Big Pistons Forever' would refrain from using 'punters walking in without the aptitude' as without the aptitude you wouldn't even make it past CTC's selection.

As nabanoba rightly said however, after the iCP intermediate training we have the chance to apply for the ATP, which consists of an interview, almost exactly the same as the during selection, which I mentioned before, lands you in exactly the same position as the Cadets.

In terms of 'Airline' perspectives, I almost see the iCP route more beneficial as you have to work hard to retain first time pass rates, then apply and be accepted for the ATP course to then potentially land a TR.

Regards

[PURPLE PITOT]

The "aptitude" BPF is referring to is your (parents) cheque book.

CTC is not the RAF, it is a profit generating business. Any spare places on courses, or empty sim slots, represent a loss to the company.

[nabanoba]

That's not the case though PP. It would be if CTC didn't have enough people applying to fill there courses. But they do. They have thousands each year. So you have to have a better 'aptitude' than other candidates.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Exactly, of those that can afford to pay, they select those most likely to pass.

You can teach almost anyone to fly. I have.

[FANS]

CTC is a profit making business, which has recently undergone a change in ownership. The latter point is likely to lead to changes going forwards.

In simple terms, you don't have the aptitude for the Wings programme (for whatever reason), but you do have some aptitude but much more importantly access to £100k.

we have the chance to apply for the ATP, which consists of an interview, almost exactly the same as the during selection, which I mentioned before, lands you in exactly the same position as the Cadets.

If on that interview (after having spent £100k), CTC has very few airline placements to offer and a lot of Wings cadets coming through, what chance do you think you have of passing it??

The answer is nil, even if you've suddenly become the best pilot in the world. Therein lies the problem, your entire career and £100k relies on a subjective interview - the success of which will be dictated almost entirely by how many placements there are to fill for CTC versus Wings cadets coming through.


I almost see the iCP route more beneficial .

You're joking. It's more beneficial to CTC.

[giggitygiggity]

I would add though that the iCP has the caveat of having a chance to be placed with the Wings cadets if you prove yourself during training and pass an interview.

This is correct, after the equivalent to your PPL test you are eligible to request transfer to the wings course (as far as I'm aware). This would be based on satisfactory performance and other non-technical skills.

Correct me if I'm wrong by my understanding was that you have a clear disadvantage if you have to go down the icp route rather than wings route.

This is true, the bond protection is probably the smallest problem as the success rate is pretty high, if you put in the proper effort, you will pass the course. Really the issue is not going into the hold pool and being put forward for a job.

If you complete the iCP to CTC's satisfactory standards then you are eligible to apply for the ATP course, where by on acceptance you are in the EXACT same boat as the cadet's, with the exact same chance of employment through their partner airlines.

It would be prudent to get onto the wings course if you can as then you would be in the primary hold pool rather than waiting to graduate, applying for the ATP course and entering the supplementary hold pool.

Finally one important advantage of the wings scheme is that it seems to cover any additional remedial training required after completion of the pseudo PPL examination (except for exam and skills test resits and any additional accommodation costs incurred). On the ICP course, all of these costs must be covered by the trainee which could easily amount to thousands of pounds if the student has difficulty in just one area of training.

[jalcp104]

I'm quite intrigued to know how you got into flying, because I can't see how you can be stood tall slaughtering guys who are willing to invest in CTC's training to eventually land a job.
Furthermore, who's to say I don't want to go into a Flight Instructor role rather than the Airline business..? If that's the case then the Cadet course would be of little use.

Just because your where you want to be, it doesn't call for the attitude.

I'm pretty sure somewhere along the line you've had you parents cheque book help you out. :ok:

[nabanoba]

Your post is pretty spot on giggidy. Upon passing the ATP course though iCP cadets are placed in the same pool as Wings cadets.

To me the drawbacks of the iCP are that you don't get the 40,000 bond protection so the risk is solely on you rather than shared between the candidate and CTC as it is on the Wings course.

Secondly, with the iCP you don't automatically have a place on the AQC and ATP courses, you have to pass an interview to get on. I have been told the 'majority' of iCP candidates get onto these courses. But you are still essentially gambling your money on your ability to impress and pass this interview.

Thirdly, I would imagine that if CTC starts to have problems placing candidates the iCP cadets will be the first to suffer. They will simply not be accepted onto the AQC course at the end of their studies so as to keep the hold pool as small as possible.

[Big Pistons Forever]

jalcp104

You presumably posted to ask for advice so lets take the emotion out of it and sticks to the facts

1) The highest probability of getting a job is for those who are in the "wings" course as they are the first in line for an interview.

2) You failed to meet the entry requirements of the wings course

You now have a choice:

A) Make an assessment of why you were not successful in the interview and work on improving your competencies over the next year or so and then reapply.

B) Immediately enroll in the ICP course with gamble that you will in the future be able to transfer to the wings course, understanding that failure to do so and only having ICP completion on your record, will greatly diminish your chance of post course employment as by definition you will have twice failed the Wings interview (the initial one and the mid course one)

To me the choice A is the most logical but like every other bit of advice on an anonymous bulletin board it is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Good luck on whatever you choose.

[cessna310]

Hi there,

Just read about this programme. Has anyone been to this programme?