Incoming - H4H etc, coming under fire.

[Al R]

I know that it isn't always possible, and that sometimes, a charity providing agile and flexible solutions helps where a G'ment Ministry can't. But a disproportionate amount of help does seem to be coming from the private sector these days - we don't seem to have any proper diversification.

Lots of care too, is going on a particular segment of injured servicemen and women. However worthy (as are they all) and however large that single sector is, I hope the rifleman who got PTSD in Northen Ireland in 1976 doesn't fall between the cracks. I wonder if the report will also lay down fire on the RBL.

Former Royal Marine Ben McBean, a double amputee and one of Help for Heroes' patrons, said that Help For Heroes and other military charities have been "getting cosy with the MoD".

BBC News - Help for Heroes and MoD criticised by injured troops (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19112550)

[Wander00]

I applaud all that RBL, single service charities and Regimental charities do, and H4H clearly caught the public imagination. However, we as a nation should be ashamed that even basic care of injured servicemen and women should rely on charity, not the Goverment, which decides to go to war, picking up the fiancial tab. I feel the same about UK air ambulance being largely charity funded.

[November4]

This reports is similar to the treatment recorded in SNCO needs help (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/492314-snco-needs-help.html) it does seem that once you are out that's it join the queue and wait for help from the NHS. The MoD don't want to know you if you need ongoing treatment.

Harris Tatakis, a former corporal in the Royal Marines, received multiple injuries in an IED blast. He was discharged just over a year ago and tried to get back into his recovery centre in Plymouth after months without treatment, but says he was turned away by the MoD.

Help for Heroes is currently funding a £22m building project on the site.

He said: "I'm on the doorstep of the recovery centre and it's a shut door. Once you're discharged, they're not there for you anymore they're there for the next injured serviceman coming in."

Mr Tatakis ended up having to pay for his own twice-weekly physiotherapy sessions, but said that after a year he could no longer afford it.

Even with with Priority treatment for veterans, this is based on clinical need. So if there is someone with the same clinical need as the veteran, the veteran should get treated first.

Any Government should hang it's head in shame when it has to use charity to build facilities that are required to treat current servicemen. To use H4H to build rehabilitation centres on Military bases is an amazing abdication of Government responsibility IMHO.

[Blacksheep]

I hope the rifleman who got PTSD in Northen Ireland in 1976 doesn't fall between the cracks. He already did. At least the former Para that did some odd jobs round our house did. He was blown up by the second bomb at Warrenpoint in 1979 and when we met him in 1995 his partner told my wife that he still woke up screaming at night and he was still urine-incontinent. He was medically discharged after his relatively minor physical injuries healed but his mind never will recover from the sights and sounds of that day. The only help he gets is from 2 Para itself - that's how he finds most of his odd jobs.

Note: Brendan Burns was killed in 1988 when a bomb he was transporting exploded prematurely. He was one of two men arrested after the bombing, who were later released due to lack of evidence.

[Shack37]

Heads-up

The report mentioned in the link is part of tonight's Newsnight program on BBC2 starting 2240.


I think there's a danger of one common subject being diluted by too many threads here.
See SNCO needs help thread.

[Al R]

:cool:

Pop, could you merge if you think it is appropriate. Thanks.

[Pontius Navigator]

with Priority treatment for veterans, this is based on clinical need. So if there is someone with the same clinical need as the veteran, the veteran should get treated first. .

But who knows? Who decides?

Given medical confidentiality the veteran will not have the information to challenge the priority.

That said, I have been treated sufficiently quickly that I do not doubt I have been seen expeditiously. Even outside my particular issue I was seen and treated within minutes by a senior registrar assisted by a houseman rather than he houseman alone.

[foldingwings]

This just received personally from H4H:

Help for Heroes
Dear H4H Supporter,

You may have seen the recent BBC news story about ‘Help for Heroes and MoD criticised by injured troops’, which includes a series of interviews with former Servicemen who suggest that Help for Heroes has been misled by the MOD into funding building projects that that are not available to veterans, rather than providing money for individual support.

As you can imagine, we are deeply saddened by the accusations and the misleading nature of the report and are concerned the negative press may escalate into long term damage, preventing us from providing the care we know is so desperately needed for our boys and girls.

We are constantly amazed and humbled by the overwhelming generosity and passion shown by our supporters who want to do their bit to support our wounded. Already today we have been overwhelmed by the messages of support that we have received from many of you and from boys and girls themselves. We understand that some of our supporters may be concerned by what they see in this report and want to reassure you all that we are committed to providing the very best support to the individuals who have given up so much. We will continue to ensure they get this support, not just today but for life.

Although is the responsibility of Government to provide prosthetics, H4H has been a key driver behind the scenes to ensure that the MOD and NHS deliver the best to both the serving injured and to veterans. In certain cases where we feel that support is not fast enough or the requirement is specialist we reserve the right to fund prosthetics.

H4H, together with BLESMA and COBSEO, has led in the area of prosthetics support and was behind the Murrison report. We are now confident that the provision of prosthetics is being correctly supported by Government.

In 2008, H4H identified a need for a national network of Recovery Centres to support both those who are serving and those who subsequently become veterans. We work tirelessly to ensure that this is delivered with speed, to the highest standard and at a competitive price. We believe that the four centres that H4H is creating, together with the three where the Royal British Legion are the principle operators, will give us a world-class support network for our wounded heroes, for life.

We work closely in partnership with the MOD but continue to drive the agenda and challenge the status quo. We are fiercely independent and far from getting our orders from the senior officers, we listen to the wounded themselves and then see how best we can support them. Our relationship with the MOD and Government has at times been lively, but has been instrumental in improving the provision of the support we are able to give now and in future.

The individuals who have chosen to speak out against H4H today state that they have not received the support they required from us. In each of these cases we have provided significant support, some as recently as within the last 9 months. We can only assume that, as the funding is sometimes administered by a third party, these individuals are unaware that the support they have received has come from Help for Heroes.

We are immensely proud of what we are doing at H4H, and are grateful to the generosity of the Great British public who have shown their support and helped us to change the lives of so many incredible individuals. We have committed over £121m worth of support, the largest single contribution in British military history, both directly to individuals and to provide world class facilities that would not otherwise have existed. We have championed the cause for the wounded injured and sick and we will continue to do so.

Thank you for your continued support.

That's good enough for me!

Don't believe everything you read and hear in the media!

Foldie;)

[Courtney Mil]

...and for me, Foldie. But I do still agree with earlier posters that the Government and the MoD appear to be doing way too little to live up to their moral commitment to wounded vets and active service people. It's easy for the media to be critical of H4H and to overlook all the excellent work they have done and continue to do.

Courtney

[Heathrow Harry]

there is a bit of generic problem with a lot of charities that hey tend to spend money on buildings rather than people - look at the RNLI College for example

The RNLI College - home of RNLI training (http://rnli.org/aboutus/aboutthernli/Pages/RNLI-College.aspx?link=mainNavigation)

I 'm sure something a bit smaller would have done just as well

[BEagle]

foldie & Courtney, I agree. A well-balanced response which has gone to all H4H supporters.

HeathrowHarry, actually I think the RNLI college is actually a smart piece of marketing. Its size and location mean that room occupancy rates are high, RNLI volunteers are allowed a discount and an element of the profits go to RNLI funds. There is room for both RNLI training and other activites, such as conferences etc. Plus it must be a fast-appreciating asset to have on the books!

[airborne_artist]

Plus it must be a fast-appreciating asset to have on the books!

The reason RBS is techically bust is because its commercial loan book is totally under water. The property markets both domestic and commercial are on their posteriors.

[Wander00]

The RNLI College was necessary to enable the Institution to train adequately their crews to operate in an increasingly technical environment. Letting out rooms when not used by trainees is what universities due in vacation time and makes commercial sense, and is also very good marketing.

[L J R]

None of the Charities appear to assist those retired veterans who now reside overseas (Non EU countries), nor does NHS. I know that this is a small group, but ZERO assistance to this small group is poor all the same.

[Icare9]

FACILITIES for the troops is the issue here.
Buildings and medical etc personnel to staff them were previously provided by Military Hospitals until they were done away with (Politicians).
There is a Military Covenant that every service person ought to expect to provide a safety net should something horrible happen, be it appendicitis or IED.

The RBL and H4H are competing and that's silly, why have two sets of admin costs to provide essentially identical provisions? Somewhere a session of head knocking together needs to happen.

H4H are media savvy; the RBL are acting like dinosaurs. FFS can't you guys sort it out and merge the best of each and dump the rest?

I'm an RBL supporter but I have to admit we're having rings run round by H4H. That's the management we need, with the RBL core behind, our boys and girls should get the treatment they deserve.

The RBL seems to be regarded as an organisation helping WW2 veterans, and H4H the guys hurt now.... That is so wrong, so please let's get it sorted.

IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE, just dump the egos and help the poor sods.

[NutLoose]

I still cannot fathom why we do not at least have one military hospital that serves veterans too, it would make a lot of sense to have a specialist centre for the types of trauma that military casualties tend to have and could always take on NHS patients to take up any slack.. When you think what we Have squandered in the last coupe of decades for the short term savings.. Wegberg.. Aldershot... Wroughton etc.

I must admit if I was still in the Services and was wounded, the first thing I would ask for as I was been shipped home would be transfer papers to the US military.. At least they still have those facilities.

[Out Of Trim]

The problem seems to be, more succinctly; that serving personnel are still being cared for. However, once dismissed from the service and still needing specialist care; veterans are being denied care from the military establishment as if they have never served!

H4H seem to accept this also, leaving the veterans in limbo, with poor, indeed inadaquate NHS cover. I'm sure that those giving to Help for heroes intended that they should be helped whether still serving or not! Also large sums of charity money is being spent on building infrastucture that should have been paid for by MOD. Leaving H4H to pay for extraneous costs such as specialist prosthesis etc.

This is the crux of the matter that needs sorting out. :\

[airborne_artist]

As I drove home from work at 5.30 I listed to an R4 news piece duscussing how S Devon's NHS trust had saved money and reduced hospital admissions by centreing the care round the patient, not round the system. NHS and social services budgets are now spent together.

The only difference between a wounded service person and a wounded veteran is the name of their employer. The care needs to be patient-centred, not system-driven.

Time for some heads to be banged together. It's not hard.

[downsizer]

Does H4H help NI, Kosovo, Bosnia, Sierra Leone, and FI veterans? Or for brevity anybody other than Iraq/Afghan vets?

[hval]

I believe that H4H is suffering a grave injustice here.

H4H is a charity. As a charity H4H are allowed to do what they wish to, within reason of course.

If someone feels that they are not receiving the necessary medical treatment then they can not go and blame H4H. They may apportion blame to their local NHS trust or to the government, but most definitely not to a charity.

H4H does an absolutlely, bloody, wonderful job, along with all those volunteers who assist. For H4H to be able to assist as many persons as possible an infrastructure needs to be in place; an infrastructure that is going to be required for many years in to the future. This is important, as both this government, and the last government abrogated their responsibilities to the armed forces.

H4H is also a relatively young charity. Where are the criticisms of the RBL or SSAFFA or the armed forces.

To tell you the truth I am outraged and livid at such criticisms levied against H4H. In my opinion the persons doing so are scum (perhaps a bit harsh, as they will be desperate for treatment). The BBC are even worse.

[Blacksheep]

I still cannot fathom why we do not at least have one military hospital that serves veterans too,A colleague who was a Royal Navy veteran suffering from the effects of asbestos, used to receive regular in-patient treatment at the Royal Navy Hospital at Haslar. That's gone now of course, like all the other superb naval and military hospitals we used to have. :ugh:

[downsizer]

And TPMH in Aki is closing shortly.

[Al R]

Bryn Parry has done a great job with helping the troops injured, I take my hat off to him and I am staggered by the energy and enthusiasm and commitment he has bought to this. It must have been his worse nightmare, after firing himself up all those years ago, now having to defend himself on national TV against an enthusiastic, personable and articulate former Marine. But I cannot see why H4H would need to spend £20 millions on a grade 2 listed building when there are so many veterans out there in need of limbs, ongoing training, home services etc. The defence put forward that it showed the parents that only the very best was on offer was frankly, nuts (Grays Lane anyone? I don’t recall that being criticised as ‘unfit’ and it cost a fraction of that amount). Also, there must be dozens of NHS facilities being closed down that are far more suitable for clinical needs, and far cheaper. I have chipped in, like millions of others, and I did so in the hope that I wouldn't be providing a corporate Grade 2 bauble that the state couldn’t be bothered to keep in good order anyway.

The follow up help to ALL veterans and the resources available to them shouldn’t be carved up and segmented as it seems to be doing. The State has a duty of care that should transcend anything that individual charities achieve for those who are harmed in its (and our) name. Farming it out to a charity, however well meaning and efficient, in such a hands off way isn't acceptable. There are not charities supporting gay and lesbian servicemen, ethnic servicemen – those are causes that the MoD now holds dear itself – so why not also, injured servicemen? This should be about veterans getting help, not one charity being better or more relevant than another. Its not a very edifying sight, the idea that veteran ‘A’ is better than Veteran ‘B’ because he was injured in Conflict ‘A’, ‘B’ or ‘C’ and its not a nice thought that it is only until he or she is discharged anyway.

For its part of course, the state prefers the public to engage in supporting charitable work for the troops because that’s got to be better than the public spending time complaining. The brutal truth is people like to help, they like to feel they’re doing something useful and the state would rather dish out MBE and platitudes about ‘sterling work’ etc than always be on the back foot and defending itself (idle minds, devils work). And the public too, wants an individual charity that it can identify with, and rightly so. H4H has captured the mood of the moment and it has filled a gap that RBL could never have done with such skill, empathy, agility, acumen and spirit. The people have made it their own. But there is becoming a sense of dislocation about it all. I hope it remains the people's choice, the slightly oddball but brilliantly in tune, left field choice and does not take on the state committee room whiff that many accuse the RBL of having, unfairly I think.

I am by instinct, an RBL supporter, I never used to be, but I know now what good it also does over the long term, quietly in the background and for lots more. Sure, it is now in some ways a job club. H4H in contrast, is the shiny speedboat, darting here and there, reacting with lightning speed to fast changing needs. RBL is the ageing cruise liner, ploughing the seas with momentum and energy and doing what it knows is best and with seeming unaccountability. There is a place for both, but they need to work together for the troops and not for themselves. And the final responsibility has to lie with the State. For it to be able to walk away and point to any charity as being the panacea OR the fault in the aftermath of its decision making process is probably the real story here.

[hval]

Al R,

You make some good points there.

What I can not abide is that a charity, who are helping people, are being criticised in such a negative fashion. If H4H were being corrupt, or totally incompetent, then I could understand criticisms. H4H are not incompetent. H4H were cretaed to aid those injured in Iraq & Afghanistan. As far as I am aware H4H work with other charities, including the RBL, to provide assistance elsewhere - where possible.

Each and every person has their own beliefs as to where money should be targeted. It is totally unfair to criticise people who have assisted so many. H4H do not have unlimited funds, so are able to assist only so many persons.

As for the £20 million spent on a Grade 2 listed building at Tedworth. Any idea why? H4H got into the fund raising business in the first place to allow the building of specialist facilities which MoD said it could not afford. Then the MOD decide to shut all the hospitals (well, they already had closed a number). Two things about the buildings at Tidworth are firstly the surroundings which are perfect for the need. Secondly are the facilities, which include the proximity to other charities at the Hub.

I actually believe that all of us should really be asking whether the MOD and Government have been using H4H funds to provide infrastructure that they shoudl be providing. By doing this the MOD and Government are depriving the injured of funds.

Perhaps one could argue that H4H have been over reliant on the MOD for advice. The MOD will obviously use H4H to their own ends. I would have done exactly the same as the H4H team; after all I am not an expert in what is required. The bloody MOD should be. It is a national disgrace that the Government that wilfully gives money to other nations is unwilling to take responsibility for the military who have fought for their own country.

[Shack37]

To tell you the truth I am outraged and livid at such criticisms levied against H4H. In my opinion the persons doing so are scum (perhaps a bit harsh, as they will be desperate for treatment).


Not "perhaps a bit harsh" but very harsh, callous and unjustified. However, it is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I truly and sincerely hope that you are never unfortunate enough to become one of those "scum" desperate for treatment.

[hval]

Shack37,

Looking back at your comment to my comment I suspect you are correct.

Did you read the letter from H4H above?

The individuals who have chosen to speak out against H4H today state that they have not received the support they required from us. In each of these cases we have provided significant support, some as recently as within the last 9 months. We can only assume that, as the funding is sometimes administered by a third party, these individuals are unaware that the support they have received has come from Help for Heroes.

I really do feel that people, particularly the media (BBC, Daily Outrage, et al) are doing H4H an injustice. How many fewer persons would be receiving treatment without them? The Government and MOD certainly aren't going to step in and take over if H4H stop existing.

[glad rag]

It is a national disgrace that the Government that wilfully gives money to other nations is unwilling to take responsibility for the military who have fought for their own country. Spot bloody on.

:D

[Shack37]

hval

I really do feel that people, particularly the media (BBC, Daily Outrage, et al) are doing H4H an injustice. How many fewer persons would be receiving treatment without them? The Government and MOD certainly aren't going to step in and take over if H4H stop existing.

I do agree with the points you're making re Government and MOD sloping shoulders and being content to let H4H etc take the weight. Nobody can deny that H4H are doing a tremendous job.

In this case the BBC and "some investigative journalists" got wind of comments made by some vets and their families. I believe the vets genuinely thought they were being unfairly treated (no pun intended) after discharge from their service.

To be fair to the BBC, in this case they did provide Bryn Perry with a platform to answer the complaints which he did very well.

[hval]

Shack37,

I totally agree that those who are injured should not suffer. I have never said that they shouldn't get the treatment they need.

I believe that H4H are getting somewhat harsh treatment for something they are not responsible for, and for which they are doing their best to help with. Why pick on H4H in the first place? Who sent these people to war? Who is responsible for them? What about the Military Covenant that this government and the past one promised to uphold? it sure as heck was not H4H. H4H have gone out their way to help as many persons as is possible. They aren't perfect, but they do a very good job.

H4H have limited funds. H4H are trying to lay down roots for the future, when they may longer exist. After all, H4H came in to existance for Iraq & for Afghanistan only. H4H already provide funding to other charities & organisations. H4H have insufficient funds to help everyone, however much they might wish to help everyone.

[WPH]

Having watched Newsnight I came away with the following views:

1. Government aren't doing enough and probably would have done even less without H4H taking the lead.
2. H4H have done an excellent publicity job and have had to make tough calls on prioritising spending which inevitably, will not satisfy everybody.
3. Philip Hammond came across poorly, didn't answer the questions and lacked sincerity. Any surprises?
4. My own research indicates that RBL has continued to raise more money year on year (in the region of 100m a year), H4H has raised 120m over 4 or 5 years. Conclusion: H4H has raised the profile of the issues, which has had a net benefit for all service charities.

In my opinion, charity is letting the Government off the hook however, my only interest is in the effective treatment of our injured. Without H4H, the Government would never have got anything done in time, then would have cancelled the project because we're leaving Afgan. For me, however uncomfortable to watch, this publicity will hopefully help H4H reassess their spending priorities and will not dampen their enthusiasm to continue their excellent work.

[air pig]

The issue of military hospitals has been discussed before, my suggestion is to have one attached to the QE, in that, they would have access to all the facilities of a major hospital such as multi disciplinary patient care, which the critically injured require, but be in a military environment. The flip side of this is, is that, non military people can see the effect that war, entered into by politicans, has on people of there own ages or of their children.

The argument against dedicated military hospitals are that they are too small, will NOT be able to provide ALL the services required by the poly trauma patient requires. In this I do exclude e team at Bastion, but they are providing resuscitive damage control/limitation surgery before CCAST bring he patients home to the UK.

Charities should also be looked at in the terms of administration costs, in the how much is actually reaching the people they are meant to help, how much are executives paid. H4H and the RBL plus all the other service charities need to get together behind closed doors and have someone bang their heads together until a common focus is produced for ill and injured people and their families. This is not, and should never should be a 'willey waving' contest as people and famillies futures are at risk.

The NHS should be told, not requested, that veterans have priority in the line for care. Even such simple things as adding them onto a clinic appointments list, so what the clinic is open longer. An easy way to identify a veteran is to add a letter to their NHS number, which at present is all numerical, which would instantly identify them as requiring priority care. No doubt there would be some who would say that's unfair, to them I say, pick up a soldier sailors or airmans kit, walk across a field in a combat zone, won't do it, then tough, get behind the serviceman/woman.

Regards

Air pig

[hval]

Air Pig,

H4H admin costs were 2% for 2011. That is 2 pence in the pound. To me that is a remarkably low figure.

[hval]

Help 4 Heroes has leased Tedworth House for £1 a year for the next 99 years. A £20m renovation project is being carried out not just to renovate the property, but to bring it up to required standards.

At full capacity Tedworth House will be able to accommodate 54 residents and 30 day visitors.

[air pig]

hval, that's a brilliant figure for admin as I suspect it is run by a very small tight knit group, who are dedicated to their cause unlike some other charities who spend vast amounts on admin and senior staff renumeration.

Bryn Parry, comes over as a straightforward task orientated guy, dedicated to his charities aim of providing some respite for people injured in war. Philip Hammond, typical politician and bean counter by trade. All the NHS care system for veterans requires is a one line Act of Parliament stating that those who have served Will have priority access to care, as I said before, identification just requires is an adjustment to their NHS number either on atestation or 12 months prior to discharge date, could be done as a present for prescription charge exemptions via the unit medical officer, who signs the form. Simple easy system.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

H4H is admirably run and would be a very good model for other charities to emulate.

They cannot be perfect or above criticism. Therefore a sense of proportion is important. Personally I back all their major decisions completely. Tedworth House is definitely worth the money and wholly appropriate. A failed plastics factory in Telford might well be cheaper pet sq/ft. Cheaper is not better.

Help for Heroes - Tedworth House Team Tedworth (http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/tedworth-house-team-tedworth.html)


WWW

[Wholigan]

Help for Heroes - Help for Heroes Statement (http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/h4h_statement.html)

[hval]

Cheers Wholigan.

[Al R]

Lets not forget Stanford Hall, a remarkable gift from the Duke of Westminster, and an incredible undertaking too.

The Stanford Hall Estate - Echelon Wealthcare (http://www.echelonwealthcare.co.uk/stanford-hall-estate/)

[SCAFITE]

The real test of H4H will only come once we are out of operations in Afghanistan and it is possible over a period the UK Military will end up back to a tempo of operation as it was before 2001. RBL and SSAFA have been going for many years and there have been quite a few operations such as the Falklands that you will be surprised how quick the public will forget and move on, and the Military will move out of the public eye. Even now less and less news reports are covering what is going on in Afghanistan and slowly but surely the Military is moving out of the public gaze. I am sure we all admire the great work by H4H and other service charities, but I think some senior folk within RBL and SSAFA have had their nose’s put out of joint, due to the fact H4H have only done what RBL and SSAFA should have done in the first place. The ordinary RBL and SSAFA workers will not care as long as money is been raised for the overall worthy cause.

In 10 or 15 years’ time RBL and SSAFA will still be going and hopefully H4H, but once all the bandwagons and Celebrities have gone and they will go, it will be left to the ordinary fund raisers, grass route charity workers and supporters who have always been there and always will. After 2020 the military will be so small it is simply not going to feature in Joe public’s mind, and all the casualties both physical and mental will still be there and still need treatment. So the bottom line while the sun shines all service charities will need to make hay, and investment like the new H4H Centre will be a good long term investment, but it will be in the future a service given and funded behind the limelight and only then will we see the real work of our service charities.

To all the folk who contribute to the work above I take my hat off to you.