Any Phantom stories out there?

[54Phan]

Does anyone have any Phantom stories to share?

[Wensleydale]

There was a pub landlord who had an old Labrador but one day, as he was putting the dog out for the night, the door blew shut in the wind and cut off its tail. The injury did not heal and the dog died of gangrene. A year later, at midnight, the landlord was wakened by a rattling of chains and the ghostly form of his dog appeared:

"I cannot go to doggie heaven until I am made whole again" said the ghost of the dog.

"Sorry" said the landlord. "I am not allowed to re-tail spirits after 11 o'clock".

Any more phantom stories anyone....?

[pohm1]

I saw Michael Crawford sing in a mask, he was awful.

P1

[blaireau]

This link is popular with ex-F4 folk.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/158670667500538/

[54Phan]

Oops, hoist with my own pendant, err petard. Thanks for the dog story, my cat will really like that one. That link you provided, Blaireau, looks most interesting.

Anyone else care to share any memories of the McDonnell Douglas model 98?

[Indelible Spirit]

Some best F4 stories are in the book Fighter Pilot, by Robin Olds. Most memorable is the story about when he was prepaired to stuff the whole F4 down a target factory chimney. Another when he ordered the in-flight fueling plane to wait for him, "If you leave us I will shoot you down myself!" The whole book is a great read!

[Finnpog]

I remember an excellent lecture at the Southampton UAS in about 1988 from a man from the AAIB who told stories of how a number of F-4s were catapulted off carriers in the 1970s with their wings still folded. I think he said something like 12 were launched of which 6 crashed straight away with the loss of the crews and of the other 6, 4 of them had the crews bang out and the other two landed them.

My memory might be fading, but I think that that was right.
There were also some incidents over here with RAF owned ones - something like the wings being down but not locked and the locking indicators being missed on 2 x walkrounds and not seen by the lineys either.

The SUU always looked like one hell of a bling-bling accessory.

[Low Flier]

Pardo's Push (http://www.historynet.com/pardos-push-an-incredible-feat-of-airmanship.htm) is a good yarn.

[BEagle]

The SUU always looked like one hell of a bling-bling accessory.

Certainly was! After the 1982 South Atlantic War, strafe was reinvented for non-mud moving AD folk. What fun that was - visiting places like Cowden and Donna Nook and loosing off at the mud. Much easier than killing Canberra-towed canvas.

After my pre-VC10K F-4 time, I was lucky enough to be sent over to San Diego to trail HM's F-4Js back to the UK during my VC10K course. OP. TIGER TRAIL was the name of the operation and it was brilliant fun. Brize to Wright-Patt, nightstop, then Wright-Patt to Miramar. Rent a car, then Sea World on Friday, Laguna Beach, Universal Studios and Hollywood on Saturday, brunch and Pacific Beach on Sunday, then off to W-P on Monday. Blew an engine...ching! North Island to W-P in the back of the route support Albert on Tuesday, another day off on Wednesday, a weather cancellation on Thursday, then Dayton to Goose trailing the F-4Js from W-P on Friday - which was also my IRT. Then home on Saturday with very nasty severe turbulence on the climb out, which lost most of the radios and nav boxes until the groundcrew were able to re-rack it...

****ing SDO on Sunday though...:(

10 days away in nice Ascot-friendly hotels for most of the time, plus an excellent night at Goose. Just one of those typical trips back then....:ok:

And now you envious wanquerres who posted earlier can get back to your silly inuendos....

[A2QFI]

I don't think anyone is dim enough to launch an aircraft from a carrier with the wings still folded! SFAIK the RN Phantoms (FG1s) had hydraulic wing fold so if they were down they were locked

RAF Phantoms were mostly manual wing fold so the outer panels were lowered manually and then mechanically locked by groundcrew turning a locking device. There was "Tell-Tale" button a bit bigger than a cotton reel which protruded from the top surface of the wing and could be seen on the walk round and from the cockpit, unless it was dark. Certainly one launched from Bruggen, and crashed, due to the wings being down but not locked.

[WE992]

14 Squadron Jag GR.1 XX963/AL shot down 35 miles north-east of Bruggen by 92 Squadron Phantom FGR.2 XV422. Pilot ejected safely. Definitely a Sidewinder, presumably an AIM-9L.

[A2QFI]

Are you reading this Roy?

[lightningmate]

Correct, the RAF F4s outer wings were mechanically lowered and locked. However, this did not stop the creeping fatigue that continuously travelled back and forth through the F4 wing from letting the odd outer wing depart leaving the crew badly placed in terms of roll control. Recovery was gained by resort to Martin-Baker.

It the final days of the UK F4, the amount of extra metal on the wing under surface was a sight to behold.

lm

[glad rag]

^^^^^THIS^^^^^ is correct and across the butt splice from memory.:zzz:

[OutlawPete]

the RAF F4s outer wings were mechanically lowered and locked

RAF Phantom FG1 outer wings had a hydraulic mechanism for raising, lowering and locking the outer wings. They had additional mechanical locks that were screwed in or out as required from underneath the wing using a speed brace and bit.

In the unlocked position, the mechanical lock raised a tell tale cylinder on the upper surface of the wing that was marked with dayglow and about 1 inch tall. This was checked on every walk round and every see off I ever saw. Apart from Q launches maybe...

There was an out of phase servicing that called for the wings to be functioned 6 times to recirculate the hydraulic fluid retained in the components to prevant stagnation due to lack of use.

I know this cos I've Phixed a few of em! Happy days! :ok:

[Finnpog]

Just been wracking my memory. I think that the USN / USMC had reported 12 launches or aborts whilst on the cat due to wings being folded. It might have been 6 aborts, and then 2 launches with crashes and loss of crew, 2 launches with crashes and crew saved and then the two which landed back.

Crikey. That was a 24 year old trip into my memories. The lecturer was very specifc about the locking tell-tale standing proud of the wing surface.

[Plastic Bonsai]

At least one US F-4 was successfully landed after taking off with outer wing panels unlocked. The UK F-4s had a more aft cg making it very unstable when the outer wing panels folded up making abandonment the only option.

Some blocked off the rear fuselage fuel cell (tank 7?) or flew it particularly gingerly until it was empty. Take off with partially full Sargent Fletcher wing tanks was not recommended for similar reasons.

I always thought the longitudinal control system - particularly the Q-feel system was an overly complicated device and the error modes filled a very big data manual from MacDonnells. I think there were many incidents of sudden pitch downs occurring at high and low level.

On paper the low level ride of the F4 and the Bucc should have been similar when comparing wing loading and lift curves but apparently you didn't stay low for long in the F-4. Perhaps the Bucc's robust construction and better handling at low level made the ride more comfortable.

Not that it didn't deter everyone. We had one F-4 back in for repair due to a bird strike - it was still in it's nest.

[Willard Whyte]

"I cannot go to doggie heaven until I am made whole again" said the ghost of the dog.

"Sorry" said the landlord. "I am not allowed to re-tail spirits after 11 o'clock".

Now see a cat would then have asked for a lock-in.

[sandozer]

Wish someone had taken pictures of the 6 Squadron FGR2 which limped into Leuchars after trimming some fir trees up by Montrose. The underside of the aircraft was riddled with tears and even the stabilator had holes in it. The ERTT probe along with most of the lower antennas had beem wiped clean off the airframe.
This particular aircraft sat in what was called the "mod" hangar at Leuchars for quite some time. I was working on F6 Lightnings then, a nav insty. Just prior to joining glorious 43 Squadron. Eventually temporary repairs done and the aircraft limped back to base. I seem to also remember it flew with ground locks fitted to the U/C. (back to Conningsby ?) This happened sometime around `68 or 1969.

[Krystal n chips]

XV431's short flight to Hill 60 resulted in a witchhunt of epic proportions I believe given that I witnessed the event and also knew several people involved. I understand that, with the passage of time, the fabled "holes in the cheese" subsequently became a Flight Safety film and rightly so.

The uncontained engine failure that resulted in a short trip to Holland was another matter. The sight of the nose leg embedded in the farmers outbuilding roof was surreal at times.

The engines arrived in a small copse. The nice man from the Dutch interior classed this copse as prime timber....whereas primeval would have been more accurate. We recovered both engines, but felt it prudent to stop when we also found .303 ammunition, clothing and webbing.

There were two other highlights to this recovery. One was a horse ( deceased) which our boss ( the cleverest man on Bruggen, a rather singular view as he was known collectively by all including the grown ups after his nickname which reflected the habits of a small caged bird..."all twxxter and s$%t ) decided the deceased was prime evidence...and thus there the deceased lay, decomposing gently for several aromatic days....then, it rained,,,, and the deceased started to float until logic finally intervened.

We also found that the RAF and the local Dutch police had a mutual understanding and natural empathy for what some misguided souls would call "corruption", in contrast to the more polite term of "working in harmony" shall we say.

Finally, whatever the merits / demerits of the type, the outstanding feature has to be the most :yuk::yuk::yuk: promotional film of all time. Only those who were compelled to watch it will understand this sentiment

[Waddo Plumber]

In mid summer 85 or 86 (not sure which) a USAF F4 Maydayed into Coningsby, frantically dumping fuel with the starboard leading edge slat wrapped around the Sargent Fletcher pylon. The crew stopped halfway down the runway,shut down and got out asap, leaving the dump valve open. When the RAF crash rescue team got out there, they had to send back for a power set to enable the dump valve to be shut. The armourer then found that the crew had got out without making any attempt to make the seats safe before they stood on them.

By now, the huge pool of fuel had damaged the recently laid friction course surface of the runway, almost plumb in the middle, so frantic repairs had to be made over the next couple of days.

All in all, the Station Commander wasn't best pleased, and made his feelings known to the crew's Base Commander.

The most memorable thing to me was watching the crew's faces as a BBMF aircraft (the Mk XIX Spitfire, I think) landed over their heads.

[India Four Two]

http://mofak.com/F-8wingsfolded67.jpg


Story here: Night Infamy and Folded Wings (http://mofak.com/Night_Infamy.htm)

[Dan Winterland]

An A7 got airborne off a carrier during the Vietnam war with the wings folded. The pilot managed to land it back on. Amazingly, the deck crew launched him in this configuration without noticing!

[SOSL]

SAC Propulsion Mechanic posted to 43 Sqn at RAF Leuchars, in 1977. On day one his Cpl tells him to go to the Eng Wg Engine Bay and ask to see Sgt Fletcher.

SAC does what he's told and the Engine Bay Chief tells him to go outside to the North side of the Engine Bay.

There are 4 Sargent Fletcher drop tanks on a rack.

SAC waits for an hour then goes back to the Sqn, slightly puzzled.

Rgds SOS

[typerated]

When 74 reformed on the Phantom they put out a call that a CAP would be run near the wash.

Sure enough every one and his brother rocked up to tested out the new unit with the funny F4s.

The story goes that a BBMF pilot on a local test flight also heard there was fun to be had.

"Boss," says a poor Phantom backseater "there's a Spitfire diving into our six"!!

Nice work!

[Senior Pilot]

I remember an excellent lecture at the Southampton UAS in about 1988 from a man from the AAIB who told stories of how a number of F-4s were catapulted off carriers in the 1970s with their wings still folded. I think he said something like 12 were launched of which 6 crashed straight away with the loss of the crews and of the other 6, 4 of them had the crews bang out and the other two landed them.

My memory might be fading, but I think that that was right.
There were also some incidents over here with RAF owned ones - something like the wings being down but not locked and the locking indicators being missed on 2 x walkrounds and not seen by the lineys either.

Ark planeguard would check all aircraft on the cat for wing fold locks, flap settings, etc, as part of the job hovering off the port side during the launch cycle. Nothing went off with unlocked wings, F4K's, Buccs or Gannets :ok:

[27mm]

Stand by for the Cranwell Flypast story....:cool:

[shedhead]

http://www.ukserials.com/pdflosses/maas_19820414_xt912.pdf
I remember this one quite well. lots of us looking at 903 as it came in the hangar and shaking our heads in disbelief at the damage. the crew were very lucky that day.

[fantom]

XV431's short flight to Hill 60

431? I've got a story...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/bentphantom.jpg

[diginagain]

Do tell...

[Scruffy Fanny]

On the net somewhere is a picture of a Keflavik F4 E airborne with both wings folded - it landed safely . RAF Phantoms that lost outer wings as far as I know - 29 Sqn lost one with an ejection doing air combat against F104 s and then one lost part of the honeycomb outer Wong but landed safely. RAF F4 s I think had new outer wings made by BAE in the late 1980s they certainly had lots of mods done to make them stronger they always had the paint removed and primer where patches were.
There are a million F4 stories ( you can read a few in my Haynes manual in the F4 !!! Plug) but I would love to re see the film of "Dead Dog" departing an F4 in the Falklands and mushing down a Valley whilst the GCI controllers looked on !!!
Interesting story and pictures of XV431 as that was the aircraft the later crashed on take off with a wing fold. I recall part of the line up checks the back seater did was " wings spread and locked" the pins were originally painted green but later day glow or red

[PICKS135]

From a McAir book

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v379/f4phixeruk/F4Bwingfolded.jpg

[Ant T]

Wasn't there a "I Learnt About Flying" report once about an F4 in the Falklands that landed with aerial wire caught on the fin, shortly followed shortly by a call from an irate farmer who'd had his aerial ripped out by a low flying aircraft?


True story, but there was no "call from an irate farmer". The farmers were my father-in-law and brother-in-law, my wife took a photo of the rear half of the Phantom as it disappeared behind the house, taking out the ham radio aerial - so 30 ft is about right!! When the investigating team arrived, asking questions about when the wire had been broken, they all denied any knowledge of the flyby. Flybys were definitely encouraged and that farm would never complain. Used to get some pretty spectacular Herc flybys there too, up the valley behind the shearing shed, sadly times have changed, and lucky to get the occasional 250' pass now............

[Lyneham Lad]

I seem to remember that the first F4M's we received at Coningsby had hydraulic wingfold whilst later ones had purely mechanical (literally manual). Folding the outer wing involved (obviously) pushing up from underneath until a couple of guys on top could grab hold. The more vertical the wing became, the less mechanical-advantage the guys underneath had, whilst those on top were limited in what they could grab as their toes were hard up against the hinge and increasingly vertical outer.

Just before lunch one Friday, I was working away under one aircraft when, from across the other side of the hangar there was a loud yell, an equally loud thump, followed by a brief but deadly hush. The (almost) inevitable had happened and a young fresh from training school J/T had not realised the implications of the yell from on-top and failed to dive out of the way. The poor chap was spread-eagled on the concrete, unconscious. It took SSQ an absolute age to send an ambulance, by which time the J/T was begining to show some slight signs of life. We all assumed he would be whisked to Nocton Hall to have his bonce X-rayed etc and were amazed when SSQ sent him to his billet after giving him a cuppa and a couple of aspirin.

XV431 - was that the one that tangled with an over-exuberant Harrier in Germany (or was it the other way round?).

[reynoldsno1]

Are you reading this Roy?

... he was my instructor at BFTS .... before his first kill ...

[KG86]

In the late 1980s, I was flying a Chinook towards Hopsten Airbase in Germany to pop in for a refuel. We had not been there before, so there was a deal of map/ground and ground/map going on as we approached its IP South. As I reached it at 120 kts and 500 ft agl, most eyes were looking ahead for the airfield and, as I checked in with Tower, they said "Are you visual with the F4 in your 3 o'clock?"

Four sets of eyes swivelled to the right, to see an F4G, about 50 metres away, level, very slowly passing us, flaps and slats down, blown air going ten to the dozen, and two German aviators grinning at us and waving.

Most impressive.

[blaireau]

Is that phot taken at Hopsten?

[BEagle]

I see that the 'RAF Timeline 1980-1989' at RAF - RAF Timeline 1980 -1989 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/rafhistorytimeline198089.cfm) states that the jets operated by 74 Sqn in 1984 were termed the 'Phantom F3':

November 1984 - No 74 Squadron reforms at Wattisham with the delivery of the first of the F4J Phantoms, given the RAF designation Phantom F3. The new fighter Phantoms are ex-US Navy aircraft de singed to fill the gap in the UK Air Defence capability, created by the need to provide full time cover on the Falklands, until the full deployment of the Tornado F3

Surely that's bolleaux? I thought that only spotters and spotter comics used that rather than the correct term 'Phantom F4J(UK)'?

[Scruffy Fanny]

Beagle
Your absolutely correct - I think the RAF Spin has caused this confusion - they are quoted as saying 74 Sqn operated the Phantom F3 which is utter Bollouex
I have the Swanton Morely op order sating that the RAF would call them F4 J UK
The RAF in 1984-1986 had the Lightning F3 the Tornado F2 / F3 so operating the Phantom F3 was stupid - they were all ex Navy / Marines F4 Js so we had the F4 K M and J UKs - I think a japanese model company made a kit of the RAF Phantom F3 so all the spotters assumed mr Hiroshimo was correct.
Beagle see private MSG

[fantom]

Diginagain. Official Secrets Act.

Lad. Other way round but he did reverse into us.

Blaireau. Yes, Hopstein. That's Wg Cdr *****, OC the certain Harrier Sqn who has just arrived from the scene of the alleged attack by chopper ten minutes after the main event.

[Red Line Entry]

Amazing how effective the wing fold was in reducing the area you needed to store the aircraft. When 43 Sqn stopped operating them in 1989, many of the jets had to be kept on the HAS site for several months. With dexterous use of a tractor and by folding the wings and swinging the radomes, we managed to fit 4 Phantoms in a Mk3 HAS. Not a lot of room for anything else!

[Rhino power]

I thought that only spotters and spotter comics used that rather than the correct term 'Phantom F4J(UK)'?

Beagle, no spotter i ever met or (good quality) 'spotters comic' i ever read ever called it the Phantom F.3, it was always the F-4J or, F-4J(UK) if you were being a pedant...
Most of us are a lot more savvy than you (don't) give us credit for;)

-RP

[Ant T]

KG86 As I reached it at 120 kts and 500 ft agl, most eyes were looking ahead for the airfield and, as I checked in with Tower, they said "Are you visual with the F4 in your 3 o'clock?"

Four sets of eyes swivelled to the right, to see an F4G, about 50 metres away, level, very slowly passing us, flaps and slats down, blown air going ten to the dozen, and two German aviators grinning at us and waving.


Had a very similar "overtake" by Cliff Spink in an F4, passing us in an S61, up by Saunders Island (Falklands) at about 500ft. His wings wobbled a bit and the afterburners came on as he passed - afterwards he told us he had got a bit too slow.............

[Scruffy Fanny]

I never knew if this were true but I heard the US Marines or Navy had a game of writing on the outside of the canopy whilst in flight. If I remember you could open the canopy below 60 kts. The Trick was allegedly to taxi out canopies shut and no writing on the outside once airborne you had to open the canopy below 60 kts and write your name on the outside- when you landed you had to Taxy back to the ramp with the evidence on the outside- always sounded a bit far fetched to me ....

[Rhino power]

...once airborne you had to open the canopy below 60 kts

How on earth could you remain airborne BELOW 60 kts?!!

-RP

[Fareastdriver]

There is a picture in the Puma scrap book in Aldergrove, (if it is still there) that was taken of the last FAA F4 with two Pumas on it wings. The Tomb was flown by the unit test pilot before it was going to be modified for RAF service and it was the only time when a F4s minimum speed was the same as a Puma could manage with a bit in hand for formation keeping.

[Exmil]

Hi Ant T. I brought that photo back to the UK (thanks for the hospitality; a great couple of days). The crew, I am led to believe, were distracted ;) and ended up a little lower than optimal. The incident was discovered as one of the engines was running a bit hot - the boroscope revealed copper (remains of aerial wire) splattered on the blades. My favourite part of this story is the arrival of the investigators on Saunders Island demanding to have the low flying incident prosecuted with something along the lines of: "I think you'll find we have the law on our side". The answer was allegedly: "I think you'll find you're on my land; *!*$ off".

[Dave Fry]

Hi Ant T
That wouldn't be the lovely P___-E____ of Saunders would it ? Have some great copies of pics of theirs of Saunders shenanigans plus some we took whilst visiting. Very happy memories of our time with them.
Cheers
DF

[Exmil]

RP
The same way you ended up with afterburner coming out of the intakes...

[BSweeper]

I once had the "pleasure" of watching the F4's groundspeed go to zero shortly followed by the airspeed likewise. We were in the vertical, 90 deg nose up, at 24k over Wideawake Airfield, Ascension at the time. The next couple of minutes were interesting!

[BEagle]

BSweeper, been there, seen that! Only in my case it was during aggressor training with the guys from Alconbury. Having gone vertical, whilst looking back over my shoulder for the F-5 I inadvertently relaxed the back pressure, so instead of looping over we went straight up...:=

Next thing was more AoA than IAS, pedal shakers, rude remarks from the back seat and "I guess you'll be coming down?" from the F-5..... But the advertised recovery procedure worked just fine and the jet gently pitched forward into a dive with no wing rock or other nasties......

[Scruffy Fanny]

Ive seen the speed below 60 kts a few times- luckily never in an F4- once on my IRT part 2 in a Lightning- IRE says close your eyes pulls into the pure vertical and then announced "recover" with 0 on the clock the MRG pointing upwards the recovery from the tail slide was to say the least careful- I also put a Mirage2000 into the vertical and looked over my shoulder to watch the F15 trying to gun me - As I departed controlled flight and ended up pointing down vertically the aircraft doing some wing rocking Mr F15 came filled my HUD - selected guns I called Fox3 knock it off- Mr F15 was most impressed - from my side I almost had to visit clothing stores for new underwear- never did tell the Eagle driver

[LTCTerry]

My dad flew USN/USMC Phantoms in the 60s and early 70s.

He walked out on the flight line for his first flight. Normally there would have been an instructor pilot to ride in the back seat for an initial flight (no flight controls in the back of USN F-4s). There was just an NFO there who said he was on the schedule. They climbed in, and my dad flew. Nothing ever came of it.

The F-4 could reach a rather high altitude if you were "creative." It was possible to fly a specific speed/altitude/power profile and pitch up steeply and climb, climb, climb, flame out, coast, coast coast up over the top of a ~70,000' ballistic arc. My dad says he always got restarts by 10,000'

If you over rotated the Phantom on take off, it was possible for the wing to blank out air flow over the horizonatl stabilizer. My dad watched a Phantom rocking left/right as it blasted down the runway over-rotated riding on its exhaust. The visiting Royal Navy officer punched out of the backseat but the pilot died after the a/c fell off on one side.

Mig v F-4. USN/USAF pilots were unable to turn with the North Vietnamese MiGs due to differences in wing loading (It's my understanding the Phantom was the densest airplane ever made). The MiG would break, and the Phantom pilot would go into full burner (reaheat for my British friends), pitch vertical, and bring the nose down while inverted and follow the target...

A Phantom with full tanks can make 2/3 of the trip from San Diego to Hawaii. Fly 1/3 of the way and fail to link up with the tanker and you had just enough fuel to make it back. Plug into the tanker and you had just enough fuel to make Hawaii if tanker number 2 failed to show.

My dad made many trips between California and Viet Nam. We would fly (supposedly) overhauled aircraft back to the war zone and bring damaged a/c back. Interestingly, based on his stories, the "repaired" aircraft seemed to cause more problems than the damaged ones.

Once coming back from Viet Nam my dad's wing man had to punch out. The Phantom's centerline fuel tank didn't have a pump; it used bleed air to force fuel out. This pilot failed to follow his checklist and didn't use the centerline fuel first. The line froze blocking fuel flow. The pilot ejected when he was unable to reach a tanker or reach land. Fuel, fuel everywhere, and not a drop...

My dad's last flight in a tactical aircraft was ~1973 and his last flight at the controls of a jet in 1975. A few years ago he was travelling through southern Alabama when he saw a sign for an airplane museum. He commented to my step-mother as he walked up to the Phantom that he had "forgotten how big it was."

Has there ever been another airplane that looked as "fighterish" just sitting looking at you? :)

Terry

Somewhere I have my dad's 2,000h Phantom II patch.

[Dominator2]

It was a sunny day during the balmy summer of 1976 at an airfield in Suffolk. All summer we had endured the pilots from the other squadron, who were flying the vertical twin jet, showing us how great their jet was. As the JP and only FO pilot on the Squadron it was my place to show them better. I had tried a few times to do an impressive take-off but couldn’t quite get it right. The idea was to turn through 180 degrees after take-off inside the concrete revetments, where there is now a HAS site. On this particular day I was flying with the loudest navigator in the RAF and I had a great idea. After airborne, as soon as the gear was travelling, as I rolled right and pulled back hard, I also applied a boot full of right rudder. The next thing I noticed was the ground rushing past very close. I had the stick a long way back and the speed stagnated at 180 kts. As we hadn’t yet crashed, for a second I did nothing. Then very slowly, over what seemed like an eternity, I eased off the control inputs. Throughout, my earphones were filled with a very loud “fantastic, great, that showed those firebird bas***ds”, and other expletives. Eventually, having turned through 180 degrees, the sick and rudder were central so I eased off on the units. The speed shot through 200 kts we climbed out to the NE almost as though nothing had happened. I never have been sure whether my nav knows how close we were that day!

[Exmil]

I'm sure more than a few people have tried this.

In the late 80s a Royal Air Force F4 OCU crew followed a profile similar to Terry's dad, managing to exceed FL660. They proudly called Victor Mike on top at which point the Fighter Controller declared them clear of controlled airspace, radar service terminated. Following the double flame out they asked to re-enter controlled airspace. The FC refused (knowing what was happening) and asked if they had a problem staying clear of controlled airspace. They had to declare an emergency at which point entry to controlled airspace was permitted.

Somewhere I have my 1000 hours Phantom patch.

[Canadian Break]

That'll be TH then!:ok:

[sycamore]

C-B,I thought that was P*^e L*n$%n...!

[9arrow]

Aware as I am that I am a mere worm in such regal company as this site I am always interested,as a mere enthusiast, n the tales of such winged gentlemen as aircrew. Living at Combs, a mere 3 miles from Wattisham as the Phantom flies, I well remember a January morning many years back when the distant roar of of many jet-turbines was heard. A quick scramble in the trusty Vauxhall saw me at crash-gate 2 where I learnt that the noise was a mass take-off of 74's F-4J's to mark the end of this model and the transition to the FGR.2. Shortly a diamond-9 plus a couple of spares did a few fly-bys over the field before landing on 05.

Landing from this direction meant that all the jets had to taxi back on the peri-track past CG.2. As they left the runway all the jets folded their wings in navy Aircraft Carrier fashion.

I was told by a trusted expert that the F.4J was the only model of Phantom that could carry this procedure out while taxying in - due to its ex-US Navy history.

Was this not right? I included this tale in my "RAF Wattisham - A pictorial history" which Ad Hoc published in 2008 which is the reason for my concern. Best to all.

Dave Eade

[Geehovah]

Plenty as of 13 Nov 12

My proceeds to RAF charities so be gentle with me!

The Phantom in Focus: A Navigator's Eye on Britain's Cold War Warrior: Amazon.co.uk: David Gledhill: Books

[sandozer]

Dave,

The FG1 Phantom could fold its wings while moving, it of course was a carrier based airframe similar in many ways to the F-4J.

[Fareastdriver]

Did it fold it's wings or just turn the tips up.

[BSweeper]

Dave

Lovely to know you are still about. Have ordered book in advance. Well done and am looking forward to the read.

CP

[BSweeper]

Loudest Navigator on the Phantom Force? Surely a new thread.

And stop calling me Shirley!

[Scruffy Fanny]

Dave - please don't consider that as you didn't actually fly the F4s out of Wattisham you are not part of the story - you are driving your vauxhall to watch the F4J s last flight is all part of the nostalgia !
I don't have my notes with me but in the front of the RAF FGR2 manual is a list of aircraft that had hydraulic wing folding - roughly it was XT891-XT914 and then XV393- XV400 approx no idea why the RAF stopped then

[tartare]

Courtney would have a few toom stories I'd imagine?
Courtney - are you there?

[Courtney Mil]

Tartare, I'm back. Some great dits here, Guys.

The F4 at very high level does bring a similar event to mind. I was flying FGR2s on 29 and we were getting ready for an MPC. One of our firings was to be a Sparrow/Skyflash against a very high altitude STILETTO target. My nav and I were sent out over the North Sea to try out the acceleration and climb profile that had been devised by our QWI.

We carried out the prescribed series of stepped climbs which put us up around 45,000 and at maximum mach for our final pitch up (to lead the dot) and simulated firing. My youthful enthusiasm took us to about 75 degrees nose up in full blower, rapidly climbing through FL660

The response to my attempt to roll inverted and pull resulted in lots of buffet and pedal shaker, but very little change in attitude. Everything then went very quiet as the donks stopped, followed by a cockpit full of fog and the onset of pressure breathing. I decided to hold everything central and enjoy the ride. Actually, there was very little else I could do.

The F4 was as good as gold, as LTCT said, and flew a lovely ballistic arc and ended up in denser air, nose down and accellerating. The engines relit without a glitch and we went home to explain to the assembled team in Friday ground training how not to fly the new Stiletto profile.

More to come...:cool:

[Courtney Mil]

Sorry, I know a lot of you have seen this before, but most of my F4 stories are in My Journal
(http://www.projectoceanvision.com/vox-05.htm) Chapters 5, 6 and 7.

[Madbob]

CM - I'd like to hear your backseater's view of the ballistic experience you had together!

MB

[Courtney Mil]

He loved it!!! ;)

[blaireau]

In 1976, I attempted a M2.0+ flight in an F4M.

On the Auth sheets, it said IREX 10 with an experienced RAFG pilot undergoing his IRE training. For this flight he was flying from the rear seat, and unusually, the aircraft was “clean wing” since we were also conducting the ACT phase on one of the courses. Since the student was doing very well on his course, and since we had a clean a/c, I suggested the high speed thing to him. He readily agreed.

Out we went to the area off the North Norfolk coast and in the generally recommended manner, we went up and down several times in max power to achieve ever increasing speed, but slowly. Some thousands of pounds of Avtur later, we had about M1.85 on the clock and all was progressing well, when a very loud bang occurred associated with some airframe vibration. From my perspective in the front seat, there was a singular lack of Telelight captions, or indeed anything else. Some relief to be gained there, but no explanation of the aforesaid events. No great thrills, so no drills required, so out of burner, left hand down a bit, back towards Coningsby, and slow decelerating descent.
Conspiring not to mention speed to anyone we handled the aircraft at slow speed without event and entered the Coningsby circuit for a couple of touch-and-goes flown from the rear. Not a particularly easy exercise, but it was going well until the fullstop version which was smoothly and fairly accurately flown to a position quite close to the runway. A fast taxi, and we were all the way onto 08.
In dispersal, the groundcrew showed a fair amount of interest in the mud spattered Phantom with the missing panels. For that was what had occasioned the big bang and airframe vibration. Two large underside engine panels were gone. Missing. Never to be seen again.
I bought the beers since I allowed the student to err. He became known as “Threshhold” since this was not dissimilar to his real name, which, of course, remains anonymous. As does mine.

[BEagle]

Mentions of zoom climbs always put me in mind of the NF-104 AeroSpace Trainer. Basically a modified F-104A with an additional rocket motor, reaction control system for exo-atmospheric flight and aircraft system mods to cope with the profile....

The initial climb was at 450KIAS/M0.86 to FL310, then a climbing turn was flown onto the zoom heading, before accelerating at FL350 to M1.9 in full A/B, whereupon the rocket motor was ignited. On reaching M2.15, a +3.5G pull up was flown to 70° n-u, holding the attitude until 16° AoA was reached with minimum pitch rates. At some stage in the climb, the J-79 was throttled back to stay within limits, then shut down at around 85000ft. Zero roll and yaw was essential, initially with aerodynamic control, converting to reaction control somewhere above 110000ft. As the top of the zoom was reached, the tail trim was reset and the aircraft was pitched over to 140° n-d, the speedbrakes were extended and the IAS allowed to build until a re-light could be attempted....:eek:

Pilots reached around 120000ft flying this hugely demanding profile - until big head Yeager tried it, screwed up and eventually had to punch out. He tried blaming everyone except himself, but it was clear that he never managed to achieve the +3.5G pull to 70° n-u correctly and failed to reset the tail trim....:\

[sandozer]

I can remember a similar incident on 43 regarding "missing doors". Aircraft landed and the underside starter door was missing. It turned out that not all the fasteners to secure the door had been fitted. Not an isolated incident, after that all fasteners were always done up :ok:

[Phalconphixer]

43(F) Sqdn 1974 - 1976... J/T / Cpl...L Fitt AC

Mixed feelings about my time at Leuchars,

4th July Barbies on the beach by the Eden estuary in the company of the crews and engineers of a 4 aircraft det from Bitburg (I think)... their aircraft fitted with Sargeant Fletcher tanks especially modified to carry Golf Clubs and mucho Budweiser... Watched in amazement when said USAF engineers completed an engine change on of their mounts in about two hours... Changing a Spey took two days as I recall...

A detachment to Leeuwarden sponsored by 323Sqdn KLu.with a side trip to Amsterdam the high point of which had to be one of our number (a member of Leuchars MRT) shinning up a very tall flag pole outside the Royal Palace, intent on having a flag away as a souvenir and having to be coaxed down by the Amsterdam Police; full marks to our JEngO for convincing the police that no further action was required and that the RAF would show him the error of his ways...

Tacevals and Minivals and all sorts of other -vals that invariably were called at 3am... the cascade phone system that was used to bring me and other groundcrew in from Glenrothes... why the hell the airforce put Squadron personnel 25 miles from base Lord knows...

Of me feigning death from radiation poisoning when during one such exercise we were all kitted out in NBC kit doing Op Turn rounds. Exposure time 12 minutes laddie... after 30 minutes with no sign of a replacement, I 'retired and sat under the wing and stripped off gas mask and gloves totally pissed off with the whole stupid game.
Dutch Major as referee came rushing over shouting at me to put my mask and gloves back on... "I'm dead" I said... "Exposure time is 12 minutes I've been out here for half an hour... By your rules I'm dead..." Dutch major looked at me then said totally deadpan ... "you are your replacement and your replacement's replacement... You still have six minutes...."

The line and hangar on our shift was run by a very capable Flight Sergeant and a Chief Tech both of whom like me were fairies. The Flight Sergeant was probably the best and quickest aircraft parker I have ever met, spinning our aircraft into 43's hangar as if they were toys, absolute genius. He could clear the line of 8 aircraft in a matter of minutes... This was in the days before HASes came into existence.

QRA... oh what fun... my favourite time... good company, good food, and lots of it. One particular session coincided with the station's AOCs parade and Q was a good way to avoid the nause but on this particular occasion Ivan decided to have a real probe at the UK defences *must have known it was AOC;s!) First launch came at about 3am with our second aircraft being launched about 30 minutes later. We dragged another a/c out of the hangar and got it armed up then it too was launched... By 7am we had every available aircraft either in the air or recovering, Our brothers on 23 with Lightnings were on standby and had their available aircraft armed and hot to trot... Victor tankers by the dozen or so it seemed.
Needless to say the AOC's parade was a joke; all of the two squadrons eng personnel were far too busy to participate...

Lots of gotchas with the FG1... the LOX bottle door for instance... In 1993 I was put on a course of chemotherapy (Non Hodgkins Lymphoma) which meant I lost all my hair and the damage to my skull was exposed for the first time; multiple gouges in my scalp incurred during Before or After flight inspections when I would inadvertently collide with a semi dropped LOX door panel *(A semi dropped door was an indication to other groundcrew that a replacement LOX bottle was required,)

The dreaded PTR374A V/UHF radio... what a stupid place to put it... floor level left hand side Nav's compartment... Seat pan out for every radio change and that involved just about every aircraft trade... 2 hours plus to do a radio change... or hanging upside down, suspended by the ankles, with a mirror and a torch while trying to repair the soldered connections on the radio mounting tray...
Or down on hands and knees trying to repair Rad Alt cables in the pouring rain or sleet...
Or exploding GTS starters...spitting out bits from Door 19...
Of spectacular wet starts... not so much a problem on The FG1 because we always needed ground power for starts but an FGR2 with a dodgy battery was always good show of pyrotechnics!

Does anyone remember a certain Nav who managed to unlock his canopy at 400Knots... nature took its course of course and whisked it away, leaving one very draughty and nigh-on frozen to death Nav... if memory serves correctly it couldn't have happened to a more deserving chap... Full marks to the QRA team back at Leuchars who had the ice skating Score Cards out waiting for his return... perfect 6's all round...

By the way and in possible answer to a point raised earlier about the non use of the No.7 tank... isn't that where the FGR2's HF Radio was installed; our FG1's weren't fitted with HF.

Lots of memories...

[Bevo]

I was right out of pilot training, F-4 training, and then off to Korat RTAFB for my combat tour in 1971. I started with missions in Laos dropping where the FAC told us to. Not very rewarding (mainly turning trees into toothpicks. However in the last half of my tour during the dry season I flew 91 night missions flack suppression escorting AC-130 gunships along the Ho Chi Min trail which was a lot better mission. We would be a flight of two but would takeoff independently with on plane heading for the AC-130 and the other going to the tanker. We would rotate between the tanker and AC-130 over about a four hour time frame.

The mission consisted of flying at about 12,000’ with the AC-130 at about 10,000’. We would fly pretty slowly at about 300 kts. in an orbit outside the gunship’s orbit. The way we tracked the AC-130 was by three small lights on the top of its wing put there for that purpose. Everything else was blacked out and of course we flew lights out in the target area. It was interesting keeping track of the gunship as its turn rate in the orbit was higher than ours and we would occasionally loose the tracking lights and would have to guess where it was in its orbit.

We were usually armed with two M36E2 weapons and six CBU-58s. The M36E2 was an old weapon that resembled a 50 gal. drum (with a drag index to match) weighing about 750 lbs. It was filled with 136 thermite bomblets that would burn for a long time. In addition to trying to hit the target with them, they also provided a much needed ground reference. We tried to drop one of the M36E2 during each escort period so that we could have that ground reference for the other aircraft to find us during our rotation to the tanker. The CBU-58 contained a grapefruit sized bomblet and the canister was fused with an FMU-56 radar fuse set to open the canister at 1,500 ft. which provide a good coverage.

When the guns fired at the AC-130 we would track the tracers (could usually tell the caliber of the gun by the number of rounds it fired) and estimate about 100’ down the trajectory to allow for the tracer ignition time. We would call “bulls-eye” so the AC-130 would stop shooting since we would be inside its target area. Then roll in and I would try to keep the approximate target point as I put the pipper on the target. Then as we pulled off the target we had to estimate the AC-130’s position to avoid a mid-air. Fortunately the F-4E had an early version of an automatic release using the radar to input range and a computer calculating the release point based on our trajectory. It wasn’t quite as accurate as the current systems but it was a lot better than a manual release, since it was a dark as being in a cave with no ground references most of the time.

As I mentioned we had to estimate the position of the gunship during our pull-out. One night I had just lost the AC-130 in its orbit when a gun came up. I rolled in on the gun and then I estimated where the gunship was and eased off on my pull-out to miss it. Well I estimated badly and as I came off target this really large black aircraft filled my wind screen; I must have missed the gunship by about 50’. The AC-130s flew with the ramp down and a guy hanging out the back to spot for AAA fire and when I finally got back into my orbit the gunship copilot called me to say I scared the sh*t out of the scanner during the pull-out (I didn’t tell him I had scared the sh*t out of myself).

The other issue was keeping track of the terrain as the AC-130 traveled down the trail as the elevations changed a lot and the karst outcroppings could be pretty steep and the trail generally followed the valleys. I had a good friend that flew into the ground on one of his night missions, probably because he and the WSO lost track of the terrain.

[shedhead]

phalconphixer. Oh yes the joys of the PTR change and even better trying to replace the PTT foot switch in the rear cockpit. as for the HF that was fitted behind door 61L above the Stabilator PFCU. 99 screws in door 61L and they had to be removed every 30 days to check the pressurisation of the T/R and antenna coupler. The Rad Alt T/R was another bloody nightmare to replace as well, the panel was too high for you to sit under to remove it and too low to stand under meaning you had to remove it in a painful half crouch and almost invariably you would find something nice and sharp to dig into your back as you moved about under the aircraft. Oh the Joys of being a Phantom Phixer!

[typerated]

I think we should have followed the German lead -updated our F4s with a digital cockpit, new radar etc and nursed them along until Typhoon arrived into service in the mid/late 90s

[JimNtexas]

I had the happiness of being a USAF F-4 WSO/EWO in the late 70s and early 80s. I flew the F-4Cww, F-4D (one sortie, but who's counting), F-4E, and F-4G.

In terms of human factors there are better places to work than the apply named 'pit' of the F-4.

The F-4G was about 35 years ahead of its time. I'd be surprised if the F-22 or F-35 could locate radars in three dimensions as well the F-4G.

Since there is interest in the wing fold systems, the USAF birds I flew all had wingtips that were locked down mechanically. They could and were folded by maintenance at times, folding was a purely manual process. If the wing was unlocked a small red tab popped out of the top of the wing.

One day during my F-4G schooling at George AFB I was standing in my flight commander's office getting an ass chewing for something or other. I don't recall what, but I'm sure I deserved it. Suddenly a hysterical voice came over the PA system yelling for everyone to evacuate the building. So we run out the back door on to the flight line to see two guys gathering up their parachutes.

A minute or so earlier my wife was driving onto the base when she saw an F-4 take off, and then fly a graceful parabolic arc as it rolled to one side. She saw the crew punch out and the airplane crash and blow up in the desert just outside the fence.

She wasn't sure what to do, so she stopped at the gate and told the Sky Cop that an airplane had just crashed, and pointed to the column of black smoke rising into the sky. The Sky Cop told her 'don't worry ma'am, that's just the fire department practicing."

It turns out the crew (student pilot, IWSO) had taken off with one wing unlocked. A few years latter I ran into the IWSO. He was blamed for the crash.

The F-4 could fly fine with both wings unlocked, but not with one locked and one unlocked.

[Geehovah]

Just airborne from 23 at Wattisham, gear up flaps up and round the corner on departure. Next minute as we hit about 300 knots there was a LOUD knocking from outside the canopy on the left hand side. I nearly died from shock before visions of the old Kenneth Williams sketch came to mind.

Turned out that the heavy rubber seal that was normally fixed to the lower sill of the canopy had come loose and was hanging outside and banging around in the airflow. I must have been looking at something else when the canopy came down. Certainly no drill for that in the FRCs and it really sounded as if it was going to make a hole in the cockpit side. After burning off we put it back down. Of course, none of my mates mentioned it again.........................

Another time during an airtest. As the negative G came on during the inverted flight check, the INAS came out of its housing on the console and drifted towards the canopy closely followed by a cheese sandwich. It was tricky to phrase the write up for the post flight snag

[Pontius Navigator]

At least one US F-4 was successfully landed after taking off with outer wing panels unlocked.

The approach speed in this configuration was above 250kts.

[Pontius Navigator]

The F4 was as good as gold, as LTCT said, and flew a lovely ballistic arc and ended up in denser air, nose down and accellerating. The engines relit without a glitch and

Early on, before the RAF had learnt from its own mistakes we were briefed on the mistakes the cousins had already made.

One I recall was a film of an F4 doing a zoom climb. The rocket duly departed mother earth, the sky became increasingly deeper blue and the contrails brilliant white.

Then the jet started a tail slide down through its contrail, the nose dropped, and it entered an upright spin. Round and down, round and down, the sky became a lighter blue and still the F4 span. Then the canopy went, the GiB ejected followed by the driver. The F4 then ceased rotation and made a smooth wheels up landing on the salt lake.

[Plastic Bonsai]

I can only remember a couple of aerodynamic related developments on the F4K/M at Brough in the early 80's.

One was a high speed towed target from a supplier, fitted in a small rectangular box with the front tapered as a gesture towards making it look like it could go on an aircraft. The flight trials seem to go on for months as the number of ways the target would fail to deploy was incrementally increased with every flight until finally we got a call that they were coming back with a one working. We rushed outside to see the Phantom fly over trailing a tiny little flag. Felt like a bit of let down.

I don't know if it ever went into service.

Another was a proposal to fit strakes to the wing leading edge to increase instantaneous turn rate. Unfortunately not all disciplines got to hear of this idea until a Computational Fluid Dynamicist innocently asked the Stability and Control Section if an 8% forward shift in the aerodynamic centre was a problem.

Oh how we laughed!... OK so we didn't get out much..(the F4K/M was barely stable at full fuel load with anything that stuck forward of the wings - remember those stability indices for the various stores?). Anyway a lot of money had been spent running CFD calculations on the strake proposal and funding had been received on the strength of the performance claims so we had to try to make it work.

A lot of wind tunnel testing later we couldn't find any strake (and we tried some really weird ones) that would not result in a significant forward shift in aerodynamic centre or neutral point so that all came to nought.

Never mind there were still the beat ups - mostly our own test pilots seeing if we were awake but I do remember an all grey 56 sqn did an approach and near touch down on 090 and then cam back up the runway very low - I was looking down on him from the second floor of our offices - a few minutes later.

We thought it was one of our test pilots but apparently our Chief Test Pilot was furious and tried to find out who it was.

Well who ever you were....nice!

[Tashengurt]

Heard tale of a certain loud blond, possibly Welsh Nav who dropped the tomato out of his sandwich. Motored the seat down to get it but couldn't reach. Motored the seat fully up to get a better angle but in doing so burnt the motor out. He spent told me he spent the rest of the flight with his head jammed against the canopy, neck bent hoping that he wouldn't need to bang out. Don't recall if he got the tomato.

[STANDTO]

RAF St Athan, some time in the eighties. The industrious hum of the BoB At Home Day office being disturbed by a Phantom departing on a zoom climb.

The Steps of College Hall, again some time in the eighties. On a restrictions parade for not having dusted my U bend or something in No.2 Mess. A clear moonlit night, and a Phantom enters stage right and switches on the reheat.
First time I realised that those little ellipses in the reheat flame weren't a trick of a photograph.

little things, nice though :)

[Courtney Mil]

Ah, the oldseat motor. As a very young, trusting pilot doing my CONVEX on my first F4 Sqn, I was lucky enough to be crewed with a navigator (PG) who didn't care much for night flying. My enthusiasm for any flying (day or night) wasn't fully appreciated in the back.

During recovery to a secret base in Lincs one night, he was very bored and, when I declared my intention to do a couple of GCAs for practice, he decided to challenge me to a race.

PG "We motor our seats fully down and then I'll race you to the top."

Me "OK"

When we were both ready, he shouted "GO!"

My seat didn't move. Chuckles from the rear.

PG "So many circuit breakers in the back, Courtney."

Me "Ah!" (or words to that effect.)

My protestations didn't convince him to reset the CB. He didn't even agree to restore power when I pointed out that we would crash if I tried to land whilst sitting on the floor. He only relented when I promised to land off the first approach.

Now, here's a thing. Although the CBs where all a bit of a mystery to me, I have never thought that the seat pan motor CB was in the back. So how did he do that? I cannot recall if a load of other services were isolated by his clever rouse. Any navs care to comment?

[Pontius Navigator]

CM, no idea, but I dimly remember that it was one use of a nav rule in the back - reaching the CBs.

PS

I think that before flying clothing made the picker that there was a little mod to the nav rule.

[Courtney Mil]

...or the circuit breaker picker made by flying clothing from a peice of aluminium tubing. I wonder if I've still got one.

[ORAC]

F4 on CAP getting bored so old nag starts explaining how they'd carried nucs when he flew them in RAFG and how the nav had to enable the CB in the rear to allow bomb release. Explains to pilot how to set the weapons switches.

Both follow the routine through, pilot follows through and pulls trigger - and centeline tank departs aircraft with a thud followed by hysterical scream from JP.

Aircraft calls RTB as C440 which is duly relayed to Ops who say fit is D440. It is explained that it might have departed as D440, but is now C440. 3 minutes later Sqn calls and same discussion takes place.

Investigation shows that bomb release mechanism was disabled in all aircraft during role change to AD - except in one.......

-----------------------

CY F4 loses outer wing during ACT under NT control and flies around doing low speed handling checks whilst working out what to do. Call from Duty Pilot in tower suggests they try with flaps down. Pilot selects flaps down which opens hyd valves in wing shortly followed by double hyd failure and double ejection.

Pilot subsequently CM for losing aircraft by selecting flaps down - he being the aircraft captain and following stupid DP suggestion....

[blaireau]

I believe this was a variation on the "Canadian Break". Was not the P on exchange?

[ORAC]

LU F4 during exercise (as opposed to Coffee C), intercepts a 360 Canberra IMC at night. Performs a late break when X shows and feels a thud which they think is Canberra's wake turbulence.

Canberra, under Border Radar control reports mid-air collision and declares Mayday and diverts to nearest airbase (LM).

F4 controller is to told to tell F4 that Canberra has reported a mid-air (by me as FA) and ask his intentions. Controller Hugh F....... only tells F4 that Canberra has "a problem" and is diverting, and are they OK (I am on landline and unaware of changed message.

F4 believes that their wake turbulence has thrown Canberra around and ask controller to pass on their apologies and that they are going back to CAP. Controller tells me that F4 apologies and is returning to CAP.

I am mystified that an aircraft that has had a midair is not recovering, but GCI, cannot order recovery. I call LU on telebrief and explain circumstances and ask if F4 should RTB, to which Sqn replies in affirmative!!!!

F4 is informed that he is to RTB immediately, pissed off crew, who think they are in trouble for getting so close to Canberra, acknowledge and transit home and are handed off to approach. On checking-in with ATC Duty Pilot asks if they have done a low speed handling check. Mystified crew ask why, and are for first time informed they have had a mid-air.

F4 performs check and lands normally. Inspection of aircraft after landing shows witness marks on underside of wing between tank and sidewinder pylons and also on underside of the horizontal stabiliser. Sidewinder pylon is also deformed rearward by a couple of inches.

Research shows that F4 passed the Canberra pulling high G with the Canberra wingtip tanking passing between the two pylons and scoring the underside of the wing and then the horizontal stabiliser and rupturing in process. Difference between safe recovery and loss of both aircraft about a 1/4".

[BEagle]

OC Eng at Suffolk's phinest Phantom base was perhaps not the most popular chap amongst the aircrew. But then he never really got to grips with the playful villainy of chaps like Eric H**p or Jerry U**n...

One happy hour, it is v.hot in the bar. 56(F) suggest breaking the window to let some more air in. OC Eng, being PMC, is not terribly happy at this idea and announces that anyone throwing anything will be expected to pay for it. The 2 Fg Offs are only just persuaded by the boss not to throw OC Eng through the window.... Meanwhile, someone does a runner and hops out of the bog window, before carefully removing the putty and window from behind the curtains which have carefully been pulled on the inside. Winks and nods are exchanged, Eric (I think it was) announces he's had enough, picks up a bar stool and hurls it through the curtains - whereupon mate on the other side drops several milk bottles onto the concrete which make a pleasing noise...

PMC goes ballistic, boss wonders how to calm him down. Fg Offs then reveal their jolly jape, boss breathes a sigh of relief but OC Eng still doesn't see the funny side....:uhoh: Unfortunately a tiny corner of the bar window is damaged, so PSA charge £100 to fix it......:(

On another occasion, one of the jets is due to go to St Athan for a major. it has been suffering several utility hyd failures, so at Met Brief, OC Eng suggests it goes there flapless. Much muttering from the assembled throng, to which OC Eng responds "I'll go in the back seat, if you like".

To which a voice responds "You can go in the f*****g front seat, mate!"

Much laughter ensues, including from the Stn Cdr who then suggests that perhaps it might be better to get it fixed first, before attempting to land on such a short runway.....

[ORAC]

LU QRA during tension in Central Region (CR) when WP is thought to be about to intervene in Poland. Keflavik E3A have deployed to CR and USN E2C are filling role.

LU F4 is happily chasing Bear Fs south of iceland without keeping a close eye on position and E2C does not provide regular updates without being asked. F4 pilot has look at fuel gauge and has prickle of back of neck and asks for pigeons to tanker and to base. Reaction to the response is an immediate Mayday call and a turn east towards UK with wing tanks, mx and pylons being jettisoned and a request for the tanker to be vectored towards F4 at max possible speed.

Tanker heads west and is turned in front of F4 as soon as possible. F4 plugs in and starts to take fuel. Subsequent report indicates that less than 2 minutes usable fuel remaining as fuel flow started.

[Pontius Navigator]

Call from Duty Pilot in tower suggests they try with flaps down. Pilot selects flaps down which opens hyd valves in wing shortly followed by double hyd failure and double ejection.

Pilot subsequently CM for losing aircraft by selecting flaps down - he being the aircraft captain and following stupid DP suggestion....

Brains Trust strikes again.

[blaireau]

More on tanking.

I was No2 in a pair of F4's flying from Dubai to Tengah. The leader's Nav was not considered the sharpest knife in the box. (His nickname was "Pathfinder". Some of you may remember him.) Luckily, mine was very sharp. After an hour or so, my Nav reckons we are way north of track for the next tanker bracket and so we get wider and wider in our line abreast formation.

"Close it up" cries the leader.
"Keep on this heading" says my Nav.

Eventually, we are many miles apart.
Up comes the Air to Air Tacan and we find the tanker no problem.

"OK Lead, we have the tanker, suggest you come starboard to join us"
"Roger" from the Leader. After some considerable time, and after we have finished our plug, he comes into view and to his great credit, he gets in first go. He took on 20,000lbs of fuel. Even allowing for the fact that he was burning as well as taking on fuel, we reckoned they must have been sphincter tighteningly short.

Cold beers on arrival at Tengah, and no further mention of my crap formation positioning.

[lsh]

Would one of you gents like to tell the tale about the Phantom in reheat, dragging the RHAG behind it in the circuit!

Thanks
lsh
:E

[BEagle]

Battle of Britain day 1982 and I'm on QRA. In the previous 6 months, I've seen a tanker perhaps twice, as most of them have been at Ascension.

In the afternoon, a live scramble is ordered. As I'm noting down the details, I ask about the tanker call-sign, as I don't recognise it....

"It's a KC-135 from Mildenhall", I'm told. Even I know that it doesn't have any wing pods, so query what to do - but time is ticking by and I have to get airborne.

"Well, there's an adaptor on the boom with a drogue on the end", is the sum total of the brief.....:(

We crank up and launch off, then find the tanker and note the ridiculous donkey dick hanging off the end of the boom. So now it's a case of teach yourself BDA prodding with a heavy 3-tank, 8 missile jet. Every time I miss, the damn woman in the 135 moves the thing, destroying any mental picture I've managed to work out. But eventually I make contact and push until fuel flows - which it does rather more quickly than the usual Victor flow rate.

A couple more jousts as we head north, then we are told that the Russians have turned back. So home we go.....

Later, I'm given a hard time for having taken so long to prod. Without the benefit of any brief, let alone dual training, of course..... "It's just another tanker", is his summary.

A year later, I'm twiddling my thumbs in Wg Ops when I happen to see a signal from the same tosser of a Flt Cdr who had criticised me. The squadron has just had a couple of days 135 jousting - in Charlie fit, not Delta 440, I would add - and have lost a couple of probe tips in the process. So he's sent a signal to Starfleet saying how essential it is for dual training to continue against the 135, due to the difficulty of prodding the BDA....

With nothing to lose, I ring him. "I thought you said the 135 was just another tanker.........".

Two faced bar steward......:mad:

[ZeBedie]

How about a dog fight over France, which resulted in the loss of a cow and an F4?

[Courtney Mil]

...OK, how about it?

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, digressing, if it is any consolation that kit was 17 years old when you used it.

When the Valiant force folded the cousins kindly provided KC135 for QRA.

[Courtney Mil]

BEagle. I'm with you. The Iron Lady was (still is) a bitch. It works, but it's never pretty. Even once you're in (so to speak) there's so much that can go wrong.

Your point about the fuel flowing much faster than a UK tanker is spot on. We used to have to ask them to turn off one of the fuel pumps to prevent the 135 from rupturing the F3 fuel tanks; air couldn't get out fast enough.

The F4 could take it, though.

:cool:

[Pontius Navigator]

The KC135 was of course intended to refuel the B52 so needed a high transfer rate. The F4 had been designed for refuelling from the KC135 (with receptical).

[Courtney Mil]

Of course. Good point, well made.

[Tashengurt]

Ish, I don't know about the RHAG but I remember seeing brake chutes being dragged around the circuit a couple of times. Got sent to Kinshaldy beach to collect one once. They weren't good for much after the reheat had done with them.

[ORAC]

There was a LU jet engaged the approach end RHAG and dragged it out of the ground and sped down the runway with the cables spinning around the tail and cutting it off. Ended up ner the end with the tail on the ground and the engines dangling down.

The airframe sat in a hanger till an airframe was found that had suffered severe front end damage and a cut and shut job united the front of the first with the rear of the second and it returned to service.

[wiggy]

But then he never really got to grips with the playful villainy of chaps like Eric H**p

There's a name....

Anyhow there's the one about the F-4 that got a bent intake ramp from refueling off the "hard hose" of a KC-135 - incredible how quickly the kink in that hose could get unkinked :sad:

Oh, and there's the tale of the last flight of XV414..............but if you want that story it will cost beers......

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

I think we should have followed the German lead -updated our F4s with a digital cockpit, new radar etc and nursed them along until Typhoon arrived into service in the mid/late 90s

Typhoon arrived into service in the mid/late 90s? :suspect:

[typerated]

My point was that if Typhoon had been on time F4s would not have needed to soldier on too long - no need for the F3!

You can apply similar logic to a updated Buccaneer (and skipping Tornado GR1/4) - although they would be getting a little ruff around the edges by the time JSF came in!

[Busta]

My first OCU flight, Lord Lucan in the back.

I found it all a bit pedestrian, then we got around to "show me your aero sequence"... "I haven't got one, but I'll string a few together". LL demo's a slow roll, half way round during the push hard bit, an almighty bang and lots of lights forward of my right knee. "You have control" from LL.

The indications suggest some sort of bleed problem. RTB in progress.

LL "you do the approach and landing, its easier from the front"
Moi "You're sure about this?"
LL "Yup"

Landed, parked, groundcrew looked puzzled. Right LE flap had become unhinged and was stuck between the wing and fletcher.

LL "Don't worry, this doesn't happen all the time.

During the inevitable debriefing I was asked to comment on a/c handing during the approach in this configuration, I had to say, based on a very small sample of approaches that it seemed perfectly normal!

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.

[NutherA2]

Well, there's an adaptor on the boom with a drogue on the end", is the sum total of the brief...Back in the 70s I refuelled off a KC135 only once Beags but my briefing wasn't as comprehensive as yours; I was just told to got to the towline & do it. On lining up with the mini-hose there didn't seem to be much to use as a visual reference, but even so I was a bit miffed to miss on the first couple of stabs, particularly as my backseat colleague was sniggering a bit.

I then noticed that someone was waving at me through the tanker's back window; subsequent R/T conversation was roughly:

Self..." What is the guy at the back of your aircraft doing?"

KC135..." That, sir, is the boom operator and he is trying to help you make contact".

Self..."Could you please aks him to stop".

Thereafter the boom/hose/drogue assembly stopped its ducking & diving routine and all went well. My looker even stopped sniggering!

[Exmil]

In the late 80s I was on a practice parade at RAF Leuchars which was taking place outside the old Ark Royal hangar, about 100 yards from runway 09 piano keys. Whilst the SWO and parade commander were having a discussion with the standard party I was watching an OCU F4 doing a sporty overshoot. Except the overshoot didn't quite happen. The jet (charlie fit) touched down on the wing tanks which ignited the gas left in them; both nozzles and the starboard stabilator scraped the runway as the jet staggered airborne, now in full blower with one tank bent up over the leading edge. Five flaming streams set fire to the airfield grass. After dropping the gear, flaps and hook the jet engaged the cable on runway 22 (short runway with PUAG - similar to landing on a carrier). For some people a good landing is one you can walk away from. Excellent example from the qwi(p) I thought.

[Ali Qadoo]

I've never had to eject - came close a couple of times - and the general consensus amongst the C Flight junta was that when it came to yellow and black time, it would be better to be faced with a snap decision with all the captions on, donks not working and controls ditto, rather than having to do a premeditated ejection. A bit like ripping off a plaster rather than removing it slowly, leg hair by leg hair.

So, as you can imagine, the prospect of jumping out and parking a perfectly serviceable F-4 in the warm blue waters off Stanley in the dark wasn't that appealing. The sequence of events that put us in this unpleasant predicament reads a bit like one of those "I learnt about flying from that" articles, except there was no one really to blame, just plain old bad luck.

As for night flying (sooner be in the bar), just like a seagull, you had to throw rocks to get me airborne in the dark. Rocks duly thrown, the Oreillyman and I got airborne for a fairly standard 1v1 night PIs trip against the Shetland Pilot and Big Al, accompanied by a Fat Albert tanker. Night tanking stats duly gathered, the Albert crew headed for home, leaving us to do our last few splits before heading down the slope ourselves. As things turned out we were slightly fatter for fuel than the other F-4 so, as per SOPs, they landed first.

Now, to this day, I don't know how the Shetland Pilot managed it, but his aircraft ended up tangled with the cable on rwy 27 (the strip at Stanley, for those not familiar with it, was short and made of slippery metal planking so we always took the approach end wire) and so we were told to hold off. So far, so undramatic, but after five minutes the runway was still black, and then another five became another ten, and to make matters worse the weather started doing the usual Falklands blue TAFing yellow routine. In daylight there'd have been no problem, we'd have diverted to Mount Pleasant, but in those days it wasn't open at night and to prevent the Argies paying an uninvited nocturnal visit, the runway was always covered with parked vehicles. So to resume our predicament: runway black, low fuel caption on, no scope for getting the Albert airborne again to keep us topped up, nearest div in Chile. Bugger!

The fuel situation began to get critical - the F-4 uses about 700 lbs to do a visual circuit - and we were now down to about 1,000 lbs and orbiting at 600 ft just to stay in sight of the ground. We'd already declared an emergency (PAN at this stage I think) and had requested an approach into the downwind wire, but air traffic kept saying no, vehicles etc on the runway, keep orbiting. Upgrading to a mayday didn't seem to impress them either, so with about 800lbs remaining I decided that given the choice between a warm, comfy cockpit and ejecting into a rough sea at night, we'd have to chance our arm. With the tower controller yelling at us to go around and treating us to a firework display of red flares, we took the 09 approach end wire with about 500 lbs indicated - just enough to bolt if we'd missed the cable.

The first pint in the coastel bar didn't touch the sides that night.

[Courtney Mil]

Blimey, Ali. Nice one. We've all had hairy moments with weather/fuel at Stanley, but one can't have been nice. Good decision to do your own thing, I think. :ok:

[BEagle]

Night tanking stats duly gathered, the Albert crew headed for home, leaving us to do our last few splits before heading down the slope ourselves.

With no real diversions on the islands, why on earth wasn't the SOP for the C-130 tanker to stay airborne, with sufficient fuel for F-4s to divert to Punta Arenas, until all F-4s were safely on deck?

It seems crazy that the tanker would land first.

But well done, Ali - I hope you gave the ATCO a good debriefing once the first couple of ales had done their thing?

[Just This Once...]

Not usual for the tanker to stay up BEags. No requirement to launch the tanker on any sortie and no requirement for the tanker to be serviceable or on state to launch for trg either.

Has it ever been different for routine FI ops?

[Courtney Mil]

Not really, no. It was available a lot of the time, but with one airframe and few crew, plus other tasks, it couldn't do everything.

[BEagle]

Nowadays, unless someone manages to black the RW intersection, the fast jets at least have some diversion capability. Whereas when only the strip at Stanley was available....

Yes, there was a perceived operational imperative back then. But when there was a serviceable tanker available and airborne, why was it planned to land first? Surely it could have stayed up with fuel available for AAR until the F-4s were safely on deck?

[Ali Qadoo]

I hope you gave the ATCO a good debriefing once the first couple of ales had done their thing?


Flippin' right. I'm normally a fairly easy-going chap, but after I'd signed in I was still fizzing with so much adrenalin that OC 23 had to order me not to go anywhere near ATC on the grounds that my committing acts of violence on the controller would cause him (OC 23 that is) too much paperwork. Instead, he phoned the SATCO who readily agreed that the controller was in for a "your hat, my office" conversation. After a couple of beers I'd stopped shaking and I don't recall the matter ever being mentioned again.

In hindsight, I think BEagle has a valid point that keeping the tanker airborne until the last F-4 was down would've made more sense, particularly at night with MPA unavailable. At the time, we didn't really think about it and it was a generally accepted way of operating, as JTO and Courtney rightly point out. I'd be interested to know how the RN handled the risk of a foul deck (apologies to our dark blue chums if that's not the right term) during night ops in the middle of the oggin. And while we're on the topic, huge respect to anyone who operated an F-4 from a carrier - hats off to you, gentlemen.

[Heathrow Harry]

"I'd be interested to know how the RN handled the risk of a foul deck (apologies to our dark blue chums if that's not the right term) during night ops in the middle of the oggin"

traditionally anything blocking the deck that can't be fixed in time to recover the boys above gets shoved over the side be it ever so expensive

[Courtney Mil]

In hindsight, I think BEagle has a valid point that keeping the tanker airborne until the last F-4 was down would've made more sense, particularly at night with MPA unavailable.

They would only stay until the pies were ready in the Sqn. Actually we did discuss it when we first moved down there in '82. One of the arguments was (probably quite rightly) that the fast jets were far more likely to foul the runway and the big boys didn't have the option of diverting into the other end cable or ejecting safely in the balmy, smooth sea.

Also, of course, we were such gentlemen that we always insisted, "After you."

Courtney

[Exmil]

I'm not sure if there is anywhere else Brit F4s routinely operated that had 4 seasons in a day. The TAFs that read blue tempo yellow were frequent and I enjoyed a similar experience to Ali's at MPA when the cables had been removed at Stanley.

After herding some sheep on west island we pulled up to check in and could see it was cloudy over MPA. The suggestion that we might want to conserve fuel as a blizzard was over the airfield, which was now red, was a little concerning. We ambled back and held off whilst the cumulo bumbly, now stationary over the airfield, continued to dump. When the game over light came on we asked if the tanker could be scrambled. The answer came back no - it has about a foot of snow covering it and even if it could be cleared would take a while to de-ice. We too went through the options list - leaving with the furniture was clearly the last choice. We did the first approach to 200 ft and saw nothing. Second approach was a short pattern to 100 ft - still nothing. Estimated fuel 500 lbs, third approach was IAA up the valley from the west at 50 ft radalt with the deal that either of us would shout if we saw a light - which we did as it flashed by the wing tip. Chopping the throttles we ended up somewhere on the runway and asked for assistance to taxi in. The call came back that the viz was so poor the land rover couldn't see where to go and was having difficulty finding us. The answer was for someone to get out and follow the sound.

[Ali Qadoo]

third approach was IAA up the valley from the west at 50 ft radalt

Wow, talk about unfeasibly large ones! :ok: Well done to front and back seat.

After all that snow the whole braking, keeping in a straight line thing must've been a tad gamey or did you take the wire at MPA?

[BEagle]

One of the arguments was (probably quite rightly) that the fast jets were far more likely to foul the runway and the big boys didn't have the option of diverting into the other end cable or ejecting safely in the balmy, smooth sea.

Surely they flew with Punta Arenas fuel available? The VC10K certainly did.

[Exmil]

Funnily, I don't think we took the cable.

On the same det we hit an albatross at 480 kts over Queen Charlotte Bay. It punctured the radome and took out the radar and ute hyd, damaged the LH aux air intake and we shut down the L engine as it was hot and grumbling. This of course resulted in a cable engagement.

[FAStoat]

Late Summer Julilee Year ,as I recall,I had been tasked with returning a "loaned"Shotgun back to the Armoury,which was Southside.A nice roar overhead and a three out of four followed by a typical flat break,a line astern pair,from 892, broke into the circuit from the Bonnie North!As I was speaking to the Chief,an incredible noise of a Toom in Reheat followed by the ground vibrating caused us both to look back towards the active,09.There was a F4 Vertical about 25 feet in the air held as in suspension.The almighty roar continued,but the Toom then lept upwards as though shot out of a cannon,accompanied by a dust storm and a whooshing sound that I had never heard before.We ducked out of a natural instinct for self preservation,and hit the deck!The Whooshing continued,it seemed for ages,together with its accompanied whirling dervish of a dust storm.The F4 having done a bolter,had left its hook down and picked a wire!The wire held sufficiently long to appear to hold the aircraft for a millisecond,until it failed and then coiled itself into whirling mass of cable that flayed all around the Airfield.Not one single casualty,except the roof of a Tilly ripped off,and some ground radar aerials.I believe the F4 only suffered a knackered hook from being dragged along on its final recovery.On returning to the Wardroom,as it was lunchtime,I saw the intrepid Dave the Brave together with his white faced "Looker"(Bones ,I think),with attending debriefers,supping large Horses Necks,still in their smellies,explaining all.Having seen an Hunter blown apart at its transport joint when nitrogen and oxygen were confused by the Eng when topping up the oxygen,it was amazing the Phantom was not more serverely damaged.Others might know whether it was??I never saw it in repair,so assumed it was signed off and returned north with its pair,having just had its hydraulics sorted.

[wiggy]

But well done, Ali yep, seconded :ok:.

FWIW I recall similar happening to somebody else (?N.S./M.M.) very late 82/early 83.

Stanley, daytime, single F-4 gets airborne (possibly a QRA scramble), the supporting C-130 then enters , backtracks, but goes U/S and so taxis back to the ramp ( near the tower)....unfortunately as it starts the turn off the runway into the pan the nose gear collapses, leaving most of Albert's not insignificant bulk neatly blocking the runway :sad: .........

We now have our heroic single F-4 airborne with no tanker support, no alternates and the runway blocked roughly at the midpoint.....There was no prospect of getting the runway cleared quickly so as far as I recall it some brave soul (Sqn Ldr M.N? and crew) managed to get another C-130 airborne despite the reduced runway length, top up the F-4 and then foxtrot oscar off to somewhere friendly on the mainland. Eventually the F-4 takes the approach end cable - due to the position of the Herc the only "missed trap" option was Martin Baker for the crew, so with that in mind we were told to bravely run away from Phandet and take up crash positions well back from the runway...

Anyone else remember this event / names of those involved?

[BSweeper]

Night tanking stats duly gathered, the Albert crew headed for home, leaving
us to do our last few splits before heading down the slope ourselves.


Don't quite understand. When I was there in October 1982, the whole point of having the C130K airborne was to ensure that there was enough airborne fuel to divert to Chile. Perhaps things and SOPs changed as crews came and went but we were always wary of the weather and lack of divs. We aso never had 2 F4s airborne at the same time to guard against a black airfield.

As for RHAG engagements, there are many tales to be told, however landing on a radalt at 50' in the clag on the short runway at Stanley takes some guts (and skill, and trust, and nerve) so hats off to you.

[tartare]

Said it before - but am still amazed at just how big the F4 is when you see it in the flesh - one huge piece of aluminium.
As a kid, used to get frustrated that the pilots were so small in the kitset, in proportion to jet.
Then many years later, I walked up to the real thing and suddenly understood.
Seem to remember a quote from one driver that you hit MIL power - it was like a locomotive until it reached rotate speed, and then at 180 knots the train turned into a swallow.
Nice.

[burnden]

I have a memory that was me and a (now) Professor, who teaches CRM amongst other things. He uses the tale that we discussed the implications of being very high, after being very fast, and that we were both happy with our mission. When we got up there - fringe of space - it was very dark in the sunshine, and the RH GEN OUT caption came on. Yes, the starboard engine had flamed out and we were ready for reentry.
On the way down, the said engine went to 0% rpm, and the PC2 light illuminated ! We were doing >250kts indicated by then, and we were unhappy. As we got into the stiffer air the rpm recovered quickly to about 15% and we relit it fine. Later on recovery to an RAF base in Scotland the PC1 caption came on and pressure went to zero, due to a big leak. We landed uneventfully into the wire on 09 I think.
My Professor friend later pointed out that if the engine which had kept going had failed when the other one did we would have lost pressurisation >660. As we were sitting there in our grow bags only, this could have been embarassing, as we suffered a painful depressurisation. It also makes me wonder if that starboard engine had stayed at 0%, and then the PC1 had also failed, we would have had to jettison the jet.
Now that would have been an expensive last F4 flight!

[BEagle]

With a double PC failure above FL660, you would have had a really interesting ejection......:(

Hopefully you would have woken up when the barostat did its thing though.

Courtney, I can't remember, but surely a single engine failure didn't lead to an immediate PC failure unless the engine seized? Was there an hydraulic accumulator in the PC system?

The Bucc had a way of integrating FlyCon hyd from the GS hyd system, if I recall correctly, but I don't recall any such reversion for powering PC from Utility hyd in the F-4?

[Alan Africa]

Been there too. It is remakable to see how many of us achieved rather too high in the F4 world. Without looking at my logbook it would be a Friday morning in either 1981 or 82 at a Scottish airfield. Briefed as a 4 ship, walked as a 2 ship, launched as a singleton for what was supposed to be a 2v2 with AAR. The thing that makes this different, and I can not recall why, is that we were totally clean, no tanks no pylons. No one else airborne so we do some PIs on the tanker and then refuel to full. Tanker then goes home. F4 full of fuel with no one else to play with. Pilot asks what shall we do so we decide to go as fast as we can. Rushing down the North Sea and eventually make M 2.0 . Now what, pull nose up and see how it climbs. Passing FL 500 still doing M 1.6 in 30 degree climb. Roll inverted and pull but sky gets dark and we top at FL 650 with engines and pressurisation both running and the recovery no particular issue. We certainly learned about how an aircraft can run away with you and would appear we got away more lightly than others.

[Rocket2]

Sorry for an off topic tale as such but I still smile when I recall being on an RAFGSA exped to Aboyne in 1986(?). Sat on the ground a blind call went out from a Booker glider to warn all pilots "that there was another RAF jet flying down the valley alongside the airfield with his head stuffed inside the cockpit!"
Immediately the stiff British accent of IMcF retorted that he was not another RAF aircraft & had indeed got his head out of the cockpit & was the President of the RAFGSA, by this time he was to the south of the airfield & in clear view & as he uttered his last word, lit the burners & sat the mighty Toom on its tail - much laughter & admiration from those of us with a sense of humour!
Hope your keeping well Sir :ok:

[DeepestSouth]

Some of those directly involved may be able to correct some of the detail of my recollections (it is nearly 40 years ago!) but here goes:

The scene - early (I think) 1974, 71 MU RAF Bicester. We received a report that a USAF F4 on approach to Upper Heyford had crashed quite close to us. It was alleged that there was a back seat/front seat disagreement about altitude which was only resolved when the aircraft touched the ground, wheels up, in a very flat attitude in a field some miles short of Heyford, at which point both crew ejected safely. The unmanned aircraft continued across the field, through a hedge, across a minor road (scaring the sh** out of a removal van crew heading towards it) and through another hedge before coming to rest in field, smoking a bit but looking remarkably unharmed.

In due course, as the UK (and probably Europe and the World's!) 'smash and crash' experts 71MU was tasked with recovering the almost completely intact jet and my Engineer Flt Lt mate was in charge. It was decided to recover it to Bicester 'cross country' using track crawlers.

There was much fun clearing the route, diverting phone and HT lines etc, and even more fun trying to raise the (well-embedded) beast on to the crawlers. They couldn't get airbags underneath it to lift it and so employed a large crane. Unfortunately, with much of Oxfordshire in the intakes, wheel wells and every other orifice, it was too heavy and the crane tipped. One bigger crane later it was up and away, cross country which took, I think, a day or two to cover the few miles - hitting one HT line on the way and blacking out a couple of villages. Finally, it arrived - a very mud-splattered beast indeed and sat for a week or so whilst the decison was made to dismantle it on site. That proved easier said than done for, as my engineer mates pointed out, it was of largely 'agricultural' construction with many bits milled out of solid metal ... and they'd never had to deal wuth a whole one before! The upshot was that the lads 'had at it' with the legendary Husq**** cutters, equipped with diamond-edged discs which I seem to recall were extremely (OK, VERY, VERY extremely!) expensive. After day 1, one disc was worn out, and so to on subsequent days as it required, I think, 3 or 4 discs before it was finally cut into movable bits.

There are pictures of the whole operation out there somewhere or buried in the 71MU records (there were lots taken at the time). It showed, beyond doubt, that the F4 was indeed a very rugged aircraft indeed.

The final irony was a few months later at a party in a Bicester MQ. Self and Engineer mate enjoying ourselves when in walks a USAF officer who turns out to be ... the nav concerned. Polite chit chat followed, but no comments were made!

[Pontius Navigator]

A growbag descent from above 50,000 ft would probably have been fatal for many reasons. The time of useful consciousness is in the order of 10-15 seconds. With an inadequate supply of oxygen oxygen you not would have been receiving enough until below 50,000 ft.

Then there is the little matter of temperature. The time in free-fall with sub-zero would have been quite enough to make reliance on the automatics essential.

If the parachute desent had terminated with a water entry, even with water above 10 degrees and no immersion suit, survival time in water would be minimal especially if you were deep frozen and unconscious.

[Tupperware Pilot]

The scene - early (I think) 1974, 71 MU RAF Bicester
A quick google has found these details...
f4 phantom* 1970 - 1974 (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/F-4_PHANTOM_USA/f4_phantom_US_1970.htm)

28th January 1974http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/WEB-GIFs/flags/usa,0.gif
USAFRF‑4C65‑0919 AR10th TRW
RAF Upper Heyfordon approach to airbase Stoke Lyne, Oxon, UK Martin-BakerMAJ D. M. Stewart
ejectedCapt. L. B. Speckman
ejectedMartin-Baker

Shame they did not fix it and fly it out of Bicester....;)

BTW Great thread....

[ORAC]

Back in 76-78 I was a controller at 280SU in Cyprus. many interesting stories to tell, but with concerning this thread the one of interest is the interception of the first Israeli F15s....

The Israeli Air Force received it's first F15s in Dec 1976. They obviously wanted to do some high speed long range trials/training and got into the routine of flying a apir due west out into the Med about equidistant from Cyprus and Egypt for about 300nm before do a high speed run back to the east.

To provide controller training there was a regular detachment of a 1/2 tankers and 2/4 F4s to AKR for a couple of weeks. The tanker would get airborne and refuel the F4s and then head out of radar cover while they'd do a few mutual PIs, the tanker would then be detected and intercepted and the exercise repeated till time/fuel ran out.

During one such exercise a pair of F15s were detected outbound. At this stage the cunning thought occured that it would be a good wheeze to intercept them. The Duty Controllers at EPI were all maritime/bomber crew and it did not prove difficult to convince them that a pair of "unknown" aircraft inside the Nicosia FIR in a position to intercept the U2 should be intercepted and identified. Permission granted an elegant stern intercept was performed.

The F4s closed from astern and called visual on a pair of F15s with a full load of Mx (they always flew live armed). At which point the F15s turned and engaged.

Being sensible F4 crew, carrying only captive sidewinder training rounds, the F4s rolled inverted and pulled for the sea accelerating to VNe. They levelled out at sea level at M1.4+ heading back for AKR. Thankfully the F15s did not chase.

The next day the Israeli ambassador to Queen Anne's Court reportedly had a nice chat with the Foreign Office and pointed out the risks involved in such an intercept and the consequences if it should happen again.

The DC at EPI received a one sided interview with the CinC Cyprus, as did the 280SU controller (Don A....... if I recall correctly) who had a special Wessex laid on to pick him up from the mountain for special delivery.

[RHINO]

Coming off Southern Q in the late 80's the changeover had just occured when the hooter went. Wattisham this is Neetishead.....scramble one F4 head 090 degrees climb angels 150 Scramble x 3.

Mass panic as one F4 launched in all it's war glory. A little thinks bubble started to occur as to what's with the 090 degrees heading. Unbeknown to all a Polish Mig had got airborne only for the reheats to fail and the chap had punched out. The aircraft merrily continued on it's way.....towards you guessed it, blighty!

The general consensus was this will be a fair fight!:ok:

Sadly for the crew concerned the Mig crashed in Belgium with I believe the whole of 2ATAF following it.

[500N]

Rhino

That would have been a nice air to air kill for someone
if it had kept going.

[Pontius Navigator]

Early 80s, one dark night, singleton F4 against the Shack. We had a suspected engine oil leak on No 2. We asked the F4 if they had a torch - one used for night VID would have been perfect.

Instead they flew between Nos 1 and 2 while the nav used his tenny weeny aircrew torch with the red filter.

Now smart money would have been to say "Suspect oil leak" at which pont we might have done a precuationary shut down and just might have RTBd.

Smarter money would have been to say "No" with the same and safer result.

In fact the said "No leak visible" so we carried on :oh:

I got £50 for that story. Anyone here care from the Leuchars wing care to own up?

[ORAC]

PN,

That brings to mind the classic RT exchange one dark night.

"Lead, 2, are you in burner?"

"Negative"

"In that case you're on fire..."

[Geehovah]

Has to be the classic quote ORAC:ok:

[grizz]

PN,
in the words of John Elias "it's only an oil leak if the oil reaches the tail"

[Geehovah]

The Mig 23 incident was covered by QRA but no clearance to engage!

[Pontius Navigator]

grizz, JE was the only pilot I knew who unashamably claimed PIC hours while sitting on the lawn outside the hangar at Bitteswell supping coffee and listening to the sound of summer and of Griffons cooling with what was left of his hearing.

The FE for the incident I related was, IIRC, Mick D*****

[RHINO]

Deci, well muscled RAF navigator briefing assembled 2v2v2. Us, 2 F15's and 2 F16 all USAF.

At the conclusion of his brief he announced in a loud voice..

'if you are going fast enough you haven't got a six o'clock':ugh:

[Exmil]

RAF Wattisham, early 90s.
I am duty adult up the tower, looking towards the runway after a pair of 56 Sqn F4s have landed and are taxying behind us when I am asked a strange question.
Air tragic: "Why is D***** taxying in afterburner?"
My response: hit red button and transmit "Fire, fire, fire..."

[Schiller]

Just going back briefly to the blocked deck scenario mentioned earlier...we never pushed dead aircraft over the side. In such cases, the flight deck crane, known as Jumbo, would move ponderously forward, pick up the offending article (most usually a Vixen with a collapsed nosewheel), and park it in a convenient spot, after which the land-on proceeded normally. It would take about ten minutes. Anyhow, we very, very rarely flew at night without a shore diversion available, and by day we'd have a tanker at standby if there wasn't one.

[Ali Qadoo]

ORAC, your tale of the F-4s and the Israeli F-15s reminds me of something similar that happened in 83/84 ish. I should point out before I go any further that, with age, I remember things perfectly clearly, but quite often remember them entirely incorrectly, so please forgive me if I've got the wrong squadron or the wrong dates.

During Op Pulsator (protecting UN forces in Beirut) a four ship from Tremblers (I think it was Tremblers, anyway) set off towards Beirut for a practice sweep in support of the Bucc det. Now, once out of TACAN range and without INAS (the FG1, had a hamster-driven air position indicator, which on a good day would tell you which hemisphere you were in with a 50% chance of being right) our heroes relied on using the radar to pick up the distinctive peninsula that Beirut sits on.

All went well until the final leg. Bang on time, the coast came up on the radar, but the lead nav couldn't work out how they'd got so far north of track because the peninsula was thirty-odd degrees right of where it should've been. Undaunted, they turned right to put it on the nose. Trouble was, it wasn't the right peninsula - it was the one with Haifa on the end of it. I don't remember the exact details of how they were alerted to their mistake, but they ended up beating a hasty retreat stage left with a formation of IDF F-15s not far behind them.

A year or so later during an APC, 56 Sqn was involved with what became known unofficially as Operation Secret Squirrel - I've no idea if the details are in the public domain, so will say no more - but once again, it ended up with our F-4s bravely running away from the Israelis.

[FAStoat]

Regarding IMcF,I remember him being the(43) Solo Display Pilot in late 70s.He got a well deserved" Gong",by recovering with one dead Donk and a very poor other Donk and very limited hydraulics,from a North Sea Singleton Night Intercept.He recovered to Lossie,I believe, and his report ,so he told us,was the prime mover in Pairs being used in future.A favourite cost cutting expedience of not shrouding the hot ends,by our illustrious budget controllers,caused many illfated incidents,also in the V Force.

[Courtney Mil]

Courtney, I can't remember, but surely a single engine failure didn't lead to an immediate PC failure unless the engine seized? Was there an hydraulic accumulator in the PC system?

Utility system was pressurized by a pump on each engine and each PC pump would produce pressure well below idle. Yes, each PC had a big (50 cubic inch) accumulator, but that wouldn't run the system for long with no pump pressure.

As you say, unless the engine had siezed or was just at very low rpm after a flame out at high altitude/low airspeed, the windmilling engine could power the system.

Of course, each flight control surface was powered by more than one hyd system anyway. So the loss of one PC circuit still left the stabs powered by the other one and the spoilers and ailerons powered by the utility system, so ne real snag.

[BEagle]

Hi Courtney! Yes, that's what I thought.

The problem with double PC failure, if I recall correctly, was that the stabilator would move to an extreme position and abandonment could be severely hampered.

Double utilities / single PC failure was something we practised during OCU training and in the simulator - but double PC failure meant saying good-bye to the simulator exercise.

I recall trailing an F-4 north to ASI, which suffered a double utilities failure. The captain's plan was to start a descent, settle him down at around 20 miles, then land before the RW was blacked with a RHAG engagement, clear off into the high speed exit and wait for him to land. No point in staying airborne to give him any gas as he would have needed an emergency probe extension - and extra fuel was of no use at ASI.

My captain wouldn't listen to my brief about calling the descent, slowly reducing thrust and checking the descent rate was OK for the F-4 mate (no speedbrakes!). So when I called 'descending', I was given an earful from the irritable sod in the LHS...Then came an anguished yelp for 'more power' from the F-4 to ease the descent, so I gave the captain a "Well, there you go - told you so!" expression.

As we approached ASI, he couldn't even navigate himself to 'COLTS' (as it then was) without being spoon-fed by 'Uncle Chuckles', his equally grumpy ex-Victor navigator. We landed, the F-4 took the wire and was towed in, before we all stacked.

Later in the bar, the captain acted as though he'd somehow saved the F-4 mates' day (or rather, very dark night)....:bored:

So I went and had a beer with the F-4 crew instead.

"Let me guess - I'll bet he's a Wing Commander", said the F-4 nav....:hmm:

Correctamundo!

[Courtney Mil]

Well done, you, Beags. There have been a number of times when I've been very grateful to have a friend in athe tanker that clearly knew something about my jet - not always with your knowledge of the F4. QRA tanker story to follow when I have more time in the morning.

:ok:

[BEagle]

Cheers, Courtney!

In the early days on the VC10K, many of us co-piglets had come from various FJ backgrounds. This helped more than a few times - for example, a mate of mine was able to suggest a course of action to a Jag pilot whose jet was venting from the fin. Synergy!

On an epic Sverdlov wake-up mission with a bunch of Buccs, knowing the capability of their UHF 'ADF' mode helped expedite the home bound RV after they'd wired Ivan, so that after AAR and firing them off towards Lossie, we then had just enough gas to get home after a climb to FL420 ('due regard'). But it helped having a very old, hugely experienced and highly skilled nav whose rapid, accurate calcualtions were invaluable.

Looking forward to your Q-tanker saga, mate!

[WhatsaLizad?]

Thanks fellas.

Of all the inane threads and overblown experiences on PPRune, you guys saddle up to the bar, which would hardly be noticed except for that clanking sound from the high strength stainless steel in your trousers. :D

[London Eye]

The double PC was always the moment when you realised that the sim was now over and you were obviously meant to eject; I am not sure I would have looked quite so pleased seeing it when airborne:eek:. Isn't there a story of somebody managing to get an F4 with a double PC out of enemy territory in Vietnam? On a similar note, for a ripping F4 read the account of Pardo's Push here:

Pardo's Push - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardo's_Push)

takes some beating....

[Wrathmonk]

But it helped having a very old, hugely experienced and highly skilled nav whose rapid, accurate calcualtions were invaluable

Now that's a phrase I thought I would never see typed by BEagle (albeit with my bold) - someone must have hacked his login!;)

[Courtney Mil]

Nothing astonishing here, but the tale of a fun night’s work. Southern QRA, secret base in Lincolnshire, world’s phinest phighter. Around supper time there was a lot of activity on telebrief with the Neat Allocator clearly quite phired up, but no mention of a P time. However, the Tanker at Marham was brought to a higher state of readiness and eventually launched. We assumed that Northern Q would get the trade and we’d get the middle of the night no-notice scramble to go and replace them. But the whole of the north was heading towards Red making us the better option.

Q2 Nav was a phounder member of the Slug Club (his previous tour on a secret phighter base in Scotland) and, as such refused to leave his arm chair unless absolutely compelled to when the call of nature was so urgent that he has no choice. We even had to bring his meal to him. That meant that when we were brought to cockpit ready, he had a seriously bright PHULL caption on. I think his words to me as we ran to the jets were something along the lines of, “If you go u/s I’m going to explode and make life very unpleasant for you when you get back.”

Both jets were held at cockpit for a good 30 minutes with a phairly confused picture coming from Neat. Eventually, my very old, hugely experienced and highly skilled nav and I were launched, but Q2 held at cockpit as a ready back up – obviously something big going on. Before we chopped to Tower, we asked Q2N how he was doing.
“Too late.” He replied.

Anyway. Transited to the secret play area many north of the maximum range of the radios, Tacan, etc, and joined up with the Tanker (who, you will recall has been way ahead of us through all this) and philled to phull. (I need to drop the ph thing now, it’s too hard to type). We set about building a picture with the aid of Pole Star and it appeared that we had not one, but two Zombies, fairly well split in range. At this point the Tanker mate declared that he’s ex F4 and adopted the callsign ‘02’.

“I’ll take the eastern one, you take the other, then we’ll swap and transfer some fuel when we meet in the middle.”

Seemed like a good plan to us. He took vectors from Pole Star, and closed on the eastern Zombie in his Victor “KF1”. We reported two Bear F in the west and ‘02’ reported two Bear F in the east. So my second live intercept is FOUR Foxtrots! Outstanding!

Our plan of swapping targets and fuel worked well through most of the night, thanks to the help and supplies of the world’s biggest interceptor and a fighter-minded Tanker mate, who also kept our INAS in the correct hemisphere. The Q2 crew who had finally been stood down to RS10 were slightly perplexed to hear on Telebrief that Q1 had idented 2 Foxtrots and so had Q2????

Any ex-F4 Tanker guys care to ‘fess up?

:cool:

[Courtney Mil]

WhatsaLizad?, glad you're enjoying it, Buddy. :ok:

[Xercules]

March 1986, 1312 Flight RAF Stanley – I was flying the Herctanker when a F4 spoked our basket. That night we had a party on 1312 and I was talking to OC23 when one of mygroundcrew who had repaired said basket mentioned the incident and the old tradition that a spoked basket equalled slab of beer for the groundcrew who had to do the rebuild. This tradition had sadly been abandoned by the previous OC23 (after his own personal incident). On hearing this, current OC 23 demanded to know the culprit F4 crew, called them over and very succinctly said “slab of beer go, deliver to 1312 go” – tradition resumed.

He then turned to me to say “But the other half is that if you ever fail to pass fuel that means a slab of beer for the F4 crew” – fair enough.

A few days later out at play with 2 F4s our hose would not trail. Try as we might we could only get it out in jerks and never to full trail. Loadie and Ground Eng down the back were slaving away, hitting the HDU with hammers and tensioners and doing other engineering things. Meanwhile we had a F4 sitting on each wing with all 4 crew members grinning and making jubilant drinking signs. Just before they had to depart we finally succeeded with the hose and all was well with us but less so with the F4s although they did get their fuel.

Tanking in the Herc the Loadie was our eyes and would provide a commentary on the F4s, their positions relative to us approaching and in formation and then progress on the refuel. The commentary normally went something like – “he’s in the stabilised, moving forward, 5 feet, 4 feet,…. in contact, pushing in, holding stable…..”

One day, by now we were all at MPA, out playing with the F4s and we reached the refuel. All was well until “he’s in the stabilised, moving f*** me that was fast.” It turned out that that F4 had a loose reheat gate (apologies for truckie description) and nobody had told OC23.

[ORAC]

Restrictions were subsequently placed on how near the tankers could close after a formal complaint by the Russians.

The tankers, ever helpful, were closing below the Bears to get the door numbers by use of the obliquitous aircrew torch and camera. Subsequent calculation indicating the top of the T tail being located with a few feet of the bottom of the Bear.....

[Courtney Mil]

Spot on, ORAC. I got the impression that he wasn't supposed to be anywhere near the Bears on that occasion. Operational imperative. ;)

[BEagle]

But it helped having a very old, hugely experienced and highly skilled nav whose rapid, accurate calcualtions were invaluable.

Back then, we had no indication of position up front in the VC10K outside TACAN, VOR or NDB range and all the nav had was a single Carousel INS, plus Omega...and a sun-gun. Being an experienced old hand, the nav (L***y R*****n) kept an eye on the kit to make sure he knew exactly where we were at any time, plus somehow kept a mental plot on the Buccs' whereabouts. A top chap!

The tankers, ever helpful, were closing below the Bears to get the door numbers by use of the obliquitous aircrew torch and camera.

When we first had the VC10K, we didn't have any 'Q' cameras, but our 'clients along the A40' were very glad of the odd 'private' reel of film we sent them:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/D.jpg

(The original was much sharper - this is just a photo of a print which appeared later in Air Clues, to give an idea.)

After a few such shots, we soon found ourselves receiving 4 swish new Canon cameras, 300mm telephoto lenses and UV filters. Some crews brought back excellent photos; for many years the 'official' shots of the Bear G were those which had been taken by a VC10K pilot.

Whereas the scabby old cassette recorder we used to plug in to the 5th seat intercom to record Boris-to-Boris chat was hardly cutting edge. We did once hear that the analysts had been in stitches listening to one Bear crews' raunchy comments about the night they'd just had in Cuba....:hmm:

Squadron rules for 'claiming' Bears were simple. By day, no film = no kill. By night, independent confirmation of type. But we weren't daft enough to try for door numbers.

Mostly.

Apart from the Foxtrot crews, all other Bear mates were quite sociable. Particularly when we held the Sun calendar up in the cockpit window. Little did Sam Fox ever know how much her parts played their part in bringing down the Iron Curtain. She does now though as I managed to persuade a hack to let her know - she found it most amusing, I'm told!

[Courtney Mil]

Nice picture, BEags. And in colour too. Not like proper Q photos of the time. The Victor fighter at post 159 didn't try to bring back snaps or door numbers, I'm pleased to say.

Courtney

[Ali Qadoo]

...except for that clanking sound from the high strength stainless steel in your trousers.



Courtney, I told you that piercing wasn't a good idea :)

[Courtney Mil]

The piercing wasn't the problem; it when it clanks against the albert.

[BEagle]

Perhaps just a little too much information there, Courtney old chap?

[Courtney Mil]

It would be, wouldn't it? Pleased to report being unpunctured. Relax now.

[Scruffy Fanny]

CAVOK sat along side a Bear F - think it was my 2nd I was doing my best David Bailey taking pictures whilst flying left hand when to my surprise the Bear Bomb Doors opened. I said to my back seater - quick get a shot inside the Intel boys will love us- I banked a bit and closed up right underneath MR Bear- I must have been about 6 feet away to get that really close look- I then almost soiled myself as Ivan decided now was the time to drop Sona Bouys. How they didn't hit us I don't know- never did know if they knew where we were and probably all pissed themeselves all the way back to Katanga

[Pontius Navigator]

SF, bet that learnt you to learn all the rules.

We probably knew but didn't think to apply the interception rules - interceptor on port. On the Mighty Hunter the SOP was for the camera op in the port beam so we duly arrived on the starboard side of the May. After one lot of shots we moved out, changed camera lenses, and moved back in.

Boris presumably knew we had moved out and possibly assumed we would move to his port. He rolled starboard hard in to us. Fortunately he pushed and we pulled. As we were at 400 feet it was lucky we each chose a different escape pass. The loadie in the port beam just kept clicking away.

[ORAC]

I then almost soiled myself as Ivan decided now was the time to drop Sona Bouys. How they didn't hit us I personally had one occasion where a sonar buoy hit and cracked the canopy of an F4 during a VID, whether intentional or not. recovery was uneventful.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Late to this thread, dunno why, but have to pitch in on posts #120 and #128….
#120; do you REALLY think that the Tower Controller would have been making those calls to the distressed Phantomoff his own bat? I suspect that you’ll find that the old adage of ‘shoot the messenger’ is entirely appropriate here!!!

First, there would have been a DOF in the Tower – if not there already, then within nanoseconds of any ‘situation’ developing – and he would have been joined in microseconds by (not necessarily in order): the Flt Cdr, Sqn Cdr, OC Ops Wg, Staish, Padre, NAAFI Manager and dog, not to mention J Eng O, S Eng O, any other Eng O and any poor bl00dy erk who had worked on the jet in the last 3½ months!

Secondly, after testing the bearing strength of the floor in the VCR, each of the above worthies would immediately be issuing long, convoluted and usually contradictory orders/comments/advice/idiocy in steadily raising volumes while standing in front of the benighted ATCO blocking his view of the OTHER things that tend be happening at the same time (Crash Vehicles deploying, Police vehicles entering the runways unannounced, “Medic” getting lost on the Apron, etc) and that have to be monitored/supervised.

Finally, all of our Heroes would immediately assume the role of fully trained, endorsed, checked, standardised and examined ATCOs…….right up until the moment they were invited to Take Over Watch in the logbook!

#128; Wiggy, I WAS the Tower controller on that occasion! One of the funniest Phantom related incidents that I ever was involved in. Funny because the Phantom's C130 tanker wasn’t the only thing going Pete Tongue: at the same time there was the Chinook with the stuck transmit switch trying to get into ‘Replen’ and regaling the world on his views on life in the FIs in general and ATC units who wouldn’t answer his calls in particular. (Never thought to look at the cab for the green light that a) would have given him permission to cross the RW and land-on at Replen and b) given him the hint that all might not be well with the world RT-wise.) Allied to HM’s warship ECM operator who decided to listen-in to the excitement on the Twr frequency but had patently set his gear to broadcast barrage noise (DF literally pointed to the Grey Funnel Line boat in the outer harbour!) on whatever frequency he was monitoring, communication capacity was – at best - limited. As we played ‘chase me around the frequencies’ so followed the noise jamming a few seconds later. All this chaos was accompanied by the inevitable scenario described above that resulted in OC Air Wing announcing words to the effect that the Herc was to continue to refuel the Phantom until dry tanks and then throw himself bravely into the South Atlantic while the Phantom landed or diverted. The Herc captain’s response was to the effect “I’m not doing that for anyone, least of all HIM”! and promptly Foxtrot Oscared to Montevideo, leaving the Phantom to take the No 1 RHAG cable (with the No 2 BAK-13 as 'Alternate' diversion) at PLE.

All this time 4 x Harriers (having STOL’ed off downwind in the meantime) were providing the CAP that the original Phantom had been sent to pick-up at the end of a ‘Presence Sortie’. They had scrambled and recovered on the 3,000 ft of available RW outside of Hardet. Yes, the Herc was RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of the 6,100 ft RW, almost to the inch. The reason for the CAP? It was the time of Mrs T’s visit and an overly enthusiastic FIADGE scopie had plotted an incoming ‘high speed’ track from the west heading for Stanley (and presumably Maggie) and scrambled Phandet and the Tanker to intercept; the ‘High Speed’ track turned out to be a Wessex Mk 3 Humphrey doing his ship/shore routine transit and probably going flat out at 90 kts. I needed a change of trousers as I thought my kex would never dry after pi$$ing myself laughing so much! Fred Karno’s Air Force wasn’t in it! Smudger Smith was my AATC and we both had tears of laughter rolling down our faces at one point.
But I loved it!

[Ali Qadoo]

Interesting post, DM-L, with some very valid points. We had an OC Flying Wing at Chiv who would immediately appear in the tower at the merest sniff of an aircraft with a problem, boot the Duty Aircrew Officer out of his seat and take over the reins. As soon as the jet was safely on the ground he'd pat himself on the back for a job well done and thin out back to his office - bloody annoying! On one occasion, the DAO got so hacked off that he went back to the sqn and left him to it - cue instant 50Hz smile from OCFW and a bollocking for the DAO. As you rightly said, if it was a particularly juicy emergency, then every man and his dog would appear out of the woodwork.

However, coming back to the blocked runway incident, when I first posted, I was racking my brains to recall any involvement from the DOF. Bearing in mind this was sometime between Sep 85 and Jan 86 (log books are in storage while we're renovating Château Qadoo) my memory of the finer details has faded, but I seem to recall thinking at the time that it was one of those incidents where the DOF couldn't really help: we were the only fixed-wing aircraft airborne for hundreds of miles, there was no scope for diverting or launching the tanker and the options were clear-cut: 1) take the 09 wire or 2) run out of fuel and eject. For once, rather than flash-mobbing the tower, the usual cast, comprised of; OC 23, EngOs various, OC blankets, C in C Strike - ably assisted by the Central Band of the RAF - were all busy trying to get the aircraft out of the wire in order to let us land.

The other possibility, and maybe your memory of the tower at Stanley is better than mine, is a disconnect between DOF and controller. Mea culpa if I've remembered this wrongly, but I seem to recall that the visual controller and his/her assistant sat in a little garden shed affair perched on the flat roof of the main tower and the DOF sat downstairs in what had been the civi VCR - complete with cracked glass from the Vulcan raids - and so when the controller picked up the Verey pistol, the DOF may not have had time to intervene.

[ORAC]

As you rightly said, if it was a particularly juicy emergency, then every man and his dog would appear out of the woodwork. And if you were a witness you couldn't be collared to be part of the BOI.... :E

[Courtney Mil]

I always worked on the basis that the men in the jet were in control/command of the jet and the man in the seat was in charge of the situation on the ground, offering advice to the crew where required and overseeing the ground stuff, rescue services, divs, other aircraft (not controlling them). The man in the chair stayed there until relieved or relinquished his position to someone else. I have often stopped (even senior) people from entering the VCR on the grounds that they had nothing to add and would only get in the way and, therefore, hinder the safe recovery of a jet with an emergency.

To OC Eng: "If you can fix the jet from here, please come in."

To OC Ops: "Your staff have everything under control on the airfield."

To the DAO when I was DOF: "You know the situation better than I. If you need me I'm close by, if not crack on."

Don't recall the Stn Cdr ever trying to interfere and certainly NEVER allowed the JEngO, SEngO, Sqn execs up the stairs.

[Courtney Mil]

Please excuse a tiny thread drift, but a funny thing happened to me and the tale does, at least, include the word "Phantom" (3 times).

After two tours on the Phantom I had a holiday in Devon as a Hawk QWI. To my suprise and joy, Barnwood asked me if I would move to the USA to be an instructor in the F-15. They eventually talked me into it!

During my short conversion course I was called upon to go and meet a big gas station in the sky and take a few thousand pounds of Uncle Sam's finest jet fuel.

"Courtney, you've done a lot of tanking in the Phantom, haven't you?"

"Loads".

"OK, well you're not required to do the dual sortie, just the phase brief."

"OK." How hard can it be?

Getting astern the 135 was easy. The director lights were little use, because of bright sun and the fact that they're set up for really big bombers, not big fighters. I found the right position and was 'plugged' by the boomer. Fuel transferred, I hit the disconnect button to no avail. After several unsuccessful attempt, I eventually opted for a 'brute force disconnect', simply move down and back until the boom unplugs. No problem.

Good sortie, nice rtb, coffee and into the debrief.

"Tanking looked OK, why the need for the brute force disconnect?"

"The normal disconnect didn't work so I just backed off."

"Is that the first time you've had to do that?"

"No, with the probe and drogue in our Phantoms we always do it like that."

"WHAT? You've never used the boom before?"

To balance the books, I flew the AAR dual sortie after the solo. :cool:

[Mach Two]

It didn't occur to you to mention that BEFORE your first sortie? Gutsy move, Mav. Or...

Just a thought. Why did the disconnect not work? Wrong button?

[Upside Down]

Goose Bay homeward bound from some Flag exercise. 4x rhino's with 3x VC-10s. Briefing after the night before, tanker mates give us all the outbound tracks to fly so that we catch up with them after theyve done their first transfer so that they're ready for us.

Warning guys, outbound tracks are magnetic, variation of 30+ degrees etc (at which point all front-seaters switch off and resume sleep) etc etc.

All airborne as planned, me (lead nav) searching sky ahead for our petrol station, getting more and more concerned about dodgy knurling technique and still nothing on the scope. Front seat pressure starts to build, we double check headings, wind etc etc. and finally my pride gives in and I tell the world we cant find the tankers..... :sad:

yep..... all 3 VC-10's had set off on the wrong track because they hadnt taken the 30 degree variation into account :oh:

[Ali Qadoo]

Re UD's post, in all my time in the RAF (1976-95) I never once heard the F-4 referred to as a 'Rhino.' I presume the name came from the US in the same way as SLUF, BUF, Warthog, Aardvark, Spaarkvark (always liked that one), Thud etc, but when did 'Rhino' enter the vocabulary of RAF F-4 operators?

Not being picky or difficult, just idly curious.

[BEagle]

AliQ, I agree.....

Similarly, why would 3 VC10s be needed to recover only 4 x F-4?


Briefing after the night before, tanker mates give us all the outbound tracks to fly so that we catch up with them after they've done their first transfer so that they're ready for us.

I've never heard of such a strange procedure - when was this alleged trail?


As for the nonsense of the magnetic variation comment, VC10s would be navigated using INS to a defined waypoint and the alleged error is bolleaux!

[Scruffy Fanny]

I tend to agree- very Odd that 3x VC10 an aircraft equipped to fly airways would all be lost and not 1 Nav would say anything.....I confess to loosing visual with the tanker and drifting into Libyan airspace en route to Cyprus but that i put down to a Hangover !- yes my thoughts are well odd:8

[Scruffy Fanny]

I tend to agree- very Odd that 3x VC10 an aircraft equipped to fly airways would all be lost and not 1 Nav would say anything.....I confess to loosing visual with the tanker and drifting into Libyan airspace en route to Cyprus but that i put down to a Hangover !- yes my thoughts are well odd:8- As i recall the F4 only ever visited the USA in the late 1980s or early 1990s or the other time was the tanker trail to bring the F4J UK s back- May 1984

[esscee]

The first "Tiger Trail" that brought the first 3 ex US Navy F4J's for 74 Sqn over from West coast of USA to UK via Goose Bay was at the end of August 1984.

[walbut]

I can remember sitting in a very bad tempered 3 way meeting between HSA, Rolls Royce and MoD back in the 1970s or 80s. The issue was a Phantom pherry, if I remember rightly from Cyprus. Somewhere en route one of the Phantoms had an engine problem, either low oil pressure or vibration and the pilot throttled the engine back to idle. The pilot decided to continue the ferry but could not maintain station with the tanker with one engine at idle and one at Mil power. He therefore flew for around 2 hours with the good engine in reheat before landing safely back in the UK. The limitation in the books was that no more than 12 minutes in any hour could be spend at Mil power or above. Rolls Royce argued that this meant the limit had been grossly exceeded but the rest of us believed that provided the average over the life of the engine did not exceed 12 minutes in any hour it was OK. The argument raged for hours and I dont think it was ever resolved, but I dont think any harm came to the engine either. Whether the pilot got severely reprimanded as Rolls Royce requested seems unlikely.

[CharlieJuliet]

I think that this ferry was to Cyprus (probably from Gan), and that the excessive time in reheat resulted in the pilot (from 41 Sqn I think) being court martialed at Coningsby. I believe that on day 1 of the proceedings the defence lawyer asked to see the 'damaged' engine only to be told it was still installed on an aircraft. This resulted in the charge being thrown out - perhaps someone else can remember more details?

[Upside Down]

I don't know anything about how much fuel a VC10 carries, I can just tell you that outbound the 3 tankers left Brize 'some time' before we left Wildenrath; my recollection is that they flew together until some distance west of Scotland, then 2 of the tankers both topped up from the 3rd. A short while later we caught up with the 2 topped up tankers and did the rest of the trip as 2 formations of 1xVC10 with 2x F4s. I assume this was needed because 1 tanker per pair of F4s wasn't enough to get to Goose and still give us the single-engine div to Narsasuaq (spelling?); as I say I know nothing about VC10 capacity; I can only tell you our profile.

In fairness I can't clearly remember if the 3rd tanker came all the way with us to Tyndall, so it's possible that the return from Goose was with 2 tankers since the SE PNR was probably easier on he way back towards Europe. (were we possibly the 1st transatlantic RAF F4 detachment ? Copper Flag)

Not being a prollific poster here on PP I can understand some scepticism; I take it with good humour as I'm amongst colleagues and probably some mates I flew with during the 80's.

btw, the Rhino reference is because I've been recently looking at Caruso's caricatures; nothing more sinister than that !

[Courtney Mil]

Don't worry. I think there's a bit of scepticism lurking after a couple of noteable walt incidents. The last resulted in the closure and resurrection of a great Phantom site - may the new one phly even better than the last.

[BEagle]

Upside Down - what year was this EX COPPER FLAG trail?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/IMG_0272.jpg

This week 24 years ago - a pair of Wildenrath F-4s at Goose just before we took them to Lincoln, Nebraska on their way to EX RED FLAG....

[Levelling_the_Land]

I make no comment on the veracity of anything, as I'm not and never have been in the RAF. A quick Google ("RAF exercise Copper Flag Phantoms" were the keywords) brings this up from Hansard:

Copper Flag Exercises

HC Deb 22 January 1988 vol 125 c902W 902W (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1988/jan/22/copper-flag-exercises#column_902w) Dr. Thomas To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will list Royal Air Force participation in Copper Flag exercises in the United States since 1977, giving the number and type of aircraft involved and dates of the exercise on each occasion.
§ (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1988/jan/22/copper-flag-exercises#S6CV0125P0_19880122_CWA_212) Mr. Freeman (http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/people/mr-roger-freeman) The Royal Air Force has participated once in a Copper Flag exercise, which took place from 14 to 25 July 1986. Eight Phantom aircraft were involved.


Hope this helps.

LTL

[Upside Down]

Copper Flag was (is?) a predominantly EW oriented exercise held in the Gulf just off Florida pan handle. The Google search info looks correct and saves me a trip upstairs to dig out my logbook (thanks for the check ;)

Think we were there a couple of weeks; memorable was the Air National Guard from New Orleans who heard about our visit, flew their own DC-7 (I think) down to Tyndall, flew us to N'orleans and hosted us magnificently for the weekend, including a table with more shrimps on it than there are in the North Sea.

I think there were some F4 trips to Some other flags a couple of years later, not sure we ever supported Copper Flag again except for this time.

[ivor toolbox]

So any story for this image (in another PPrune forum)

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/496950-great-shot.html

ttfn

[A2QFI]

I recall the pilot's name, which I will not mention, and the possible presence as the defending "person" of Mr Gilbert Blades The prosecution made some big issue about the wisdom or otherwise of flying around on one engine. The pilot was asked by Mr Blades about his previous flying experience and was told that it was 1000 hrs on Hunters. Mr Blades asked how many engines the Hunter had. On being told it was one he suggested that there was no case to answer! I do not know if that was the clincher but there was a not guilty verdict.

[Plastic Bonsai]

A story that got back to the dungeons at Brough was about an F4 pilot on the Decci range spotting a new Russian warship he'd been briefed about passing through the area. He thought he'd get the Russian to turn on his radars so he could be the first to bring back some ELINT on the new type so proceeds to buzz around the ship at low level.

Nothing..

Right .. goes down very low and streaks through between masts and funnels and starts to circle round.

Aha! Radar sweeps in search mode came in then the more rapid tones of a lock on and then there's a flash and smoke amidships.

Kerrist! Exits at high speed and wave top height.

Turns out the Russian had fired off a flare.

I got this nth hand but I hope it's true.

[Courtney Mil]

Once it's recorded on PPRuNe, it's true.

[Geehovah]

A story that got back to the dungeons at Brough was about an F4 pilot on the Decci range spotting a new Russian warship he'd been briefed about passing through the area. He thought he'd get the Russian to turn on his radars so he could be the first to bring back some ELINT on the new type so proceeds to buzz around the ship at low level.

Nothing..

Right .. goes down very low and streaks through between masts and funnels and starts to circle round.

Aha! Radar sweeps in search mode came in then the more rapid tones of a lock on and then there's a flash and smoke amidships.

Kerrist! Exits at high speed and wave top height.

Turns out the Russian had fired off a flare.

I got this nth hand but I hope it's true. If you keep giving away my stories there will be none left in the book to read.

It's true but it was in Akronelli and the motives were not quite as devious. I was that man. My pilot will remain nameless!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Phantom-Focus-Navigators-Britains/dp/1781550484

[Plastic Bonsai]

Then you have one more book sale sir! And £20 for H4H if you would sign it.

Always interested in the end-user stories.

[500N]

"Then you have one more book sale sir!"

Make that two.

I thought the story was very good
so if that's part of the book, :ok:

[Courtney Mil]

You know I'm in.

[500N]

Courtney

Are you in the book ?:O

[Out Of Trim]

As a phormer Runway Controller Ex Wattisham Doing APC's in Akrotiri's Caravan with 56 Sqn, 74 Sqn and 43 Sqn I will be up for a copy!

[matkat]

Would love a copy also:ok:

[Geehovah]

"Phantom In Focus - A Navigator's Eye on Britains Cold War Warrior" by Fonthill Media.

I'll be donating from my royalties to 2 RAF charities; The RAF Memorial Trust and The RAF Museum so be kind with the reviews.:)

[Gollum6]

I've had a great time reading these dits and recognising one or two individuals. Sadly I never served on an F-4 station but shared a det once or twice and met up with some of my old IOT comrades. I do remember the very last (I think) flight of an RAF F-4......I was standing outside the Ops Block at that secret West (very West) Wales FT station with D*&k F#%$*s (Ex F-4s and possessing a very unfortunate phonetic surname) when the AAEE FG.1 did its last tour of Britain flight, which took in an opportunity to perform a flyby at the stations latest flying graduation ceremony.
Happy days though how I survived my regular trips with a certain Drop Tank Destroyer from Leuchars, I will never know;).

Put me down for a copy of that book too.

[tarantonight]

Every job - however interesting - just becomes another day at the office for those who do it.

You F4 guys should remember your place in military history:D:D

[Abacus]

I remember in the early 80's (can't remember the exact year) I was scheduled to open the Bournemouth International air show, which was part sponsored by the local TV company at the time 'TVS', by launching a banner behind our Grumman Ag-Cat. The banner had a 6 foot square 'TVS' logo with 'weclome to TVS Bournmouth air show' clipped on behind the logo. All this was behind around 100 feet of rope linked to a large loop help open between a pair of launch poles about 10 foot high fairly close to side of the runway, around the mid point. The idea was that the Ag-Cat would do a low pass trailing a grappling hook and put the hook through the launch poles, peeling the banner off the ground and do a circuit and then drop the banner back on the airfield. Normal speed for this would be around 60 Kts.
The 'proper' airshow would then commence!

About half an hour or so before the opening a Phantom was scheduled to land and taxi to the static park.
When the Phantom arrived, he did a very low overshoot (I think intentionally) and turned left to the side of the runway, away from the crowd line, climbing away to position downwind. Very spectacular! Unfortunately.......his left main gear went through the banner tow line loop and peeled the banner beautifully off the ground.....welcoming everybody to the airshow!

Needless to say the banner only lasted about 10 seconds before it disintegrated!
I guess a Phantom Go-Around speed is significantly greater than 60kts! :D

[pulse1]

Was that the same year and the same Phantom that went off the side of the runway during T/O on the last day of the show? The nav ejected and the aircraft diverted safely to Lyneham.

I didn't see it but the aircraft came over my house 6 miles away with the u/c still down and I thought it was a bit odd.

[lsh]

Would one of you gents like to tell the tale about the Phantom in reheat, dragging the RHAG behind it in the circuit!

Thanks
lsh



As its a good story and nobody has come up with more, I will tell what I know.

We were on a visit to Brunei.
The Air Attache was "HP", sadly no longer with us, lost in the St Athan collision.
On his wall was a picture of a Phantom, nose pitched well-up, low level, reheat, hook down & towing a mass of debris!!!

I asked what had happened.
and IIRC....

On short final with an emergency, ATC had raised the approach end barrier on them, rather than the stop end!
With the emergency, they were headed for the RHAG anyway, so the hook was down!
The result?
The spectacular picture mentioned above.

Surely you guys must know the story and be able to flesh it out?
Anyway, 'tis true, was told to me first-hand.

lsh
:E

[John Eacott]

Did someone mention Deci?

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/1634-1/Phantom+blown+tyres+_+Decimomanu.jpg

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/5155-2/Phantom+blown+tyres+_+Decimomanu+02.jpg

892 trying to stop without catching a wire: we took a couple of spare wheels as it was a bit embarrassing to block the runway for half a day ;)

Then there was the USMC F4 that was stuck on Ark whilst in Valetta and sent home to the US of A with an 892 NAS fin :ok:

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/1692-1/US+Marine+Phantom+RN+colours+05.jpg

[howiehowie93]

I think that this ferry was to Cyprus (probably from Gan), and that the excessive time in reheat resulted in the pilot (from 41 Sqn I think)I think this tale was in Air Clues in the 80's a "I Learned about Flying from That" story.

I remember reading it as flying over Iran with one engine in full reheat and that has stuck in my mind through all these years. I thought it was odd at the time. Now I wonder why a Toom would be in Gan ?

regards
H

[Abacus]

Pulse 1

I don't recall that about a nav ejecting. But we had re-position to Southampton later in the day so were not around at the time he would have left.

[CharlieJuliet]

Actually, on reflection, I'm not sure if it had actually landed at Gan or just overflown it on the way back from the far east (Singapore I think). The F4 was the last of the BP (Ex Bersatu Padu??or something similar), and I think the recovery had already been somewhat protracted.

[gibbo568]

howie, there is a website remembering RAF Gan, 'RAF Gan Remembered', funnily enough, there are two pictures of F4M's on the site, which I was surprised to see.

One depicts an F4 being towed through what appears to be an admin site, minus canopy, with men on the wings holding up the (unlocked) outer wing panels.

Wonder what happened there?

(edit:- lost canopy on take off, circa 1972)

[Scruffy Fanny]

I think ( well before my time) 6 Squadron deployed the FGR2 to The Far East - Singapore - again from memory the Lightnings of 74 Squadron had pulled out and it was to show the RAF could still deploy to the NEAF with the new F4 and tanker support - I recall the NRL on my 1st F4 Sqn was ex 6 Sqn and he spoke of it - again I think some of the sorties were pretty long and limited either by O2 supplies or it could have been engine oil usage - Not 100% sure

[RetiredF4]

An afternoon a sortie came back with a mayday call, the landing was uneventful, but for the GIB it sure was a new feeling doing his business in a windy office without a canopy to protect against blast and weather. The explanation what happened was a bit weird like just fell off, dont know why, and so on. A first inspection could not reveal anything terchnical responsible for the mishap.:confused: No damage reports fom civvis had arrived that time, so the canopy was most probably somewhere in the wooden area of the black forest close to our base.

How could this have happened?:ooh:


Well it´s always the same.
Bad waeather in the morning, a full squadron coffee bar, and some unsane ideas. In this case a few hotshots discussed, how slow the phantom could be flown by a superior stick in some sound maneuver without going out of control, and being it only for a couple of seconds. Some bold front seater came up with the number slower than 60 knots (even the speedometer started not before 80 knots) and another took him by the word and offered some ammount of his flightpay if he would do it and could prove that he had done it. :)

The discussion was interrupted by improving weather and flying was called on.
After briefing and flightplanning our superior stick guy and his GIB used all their not so superior brain to make a proposal to their money offering pilot fellow to prove their ability to fly slower than 60 knots and prove it by...

opening the canopy and making a mark with a edding on the outside.. :\

The canopy was restricted to 60 knots, which was enough for speedy taxiing, and our superior crew saw no problem in slowing down, open the canopy, make the mark with the edding, close the canopy again and speed up to flying speed again. Would the rest of the aircrews had heard of this plan there might have been a way to reason, but as it had become a thing of honor and money between two well expierienced Recce-pilots the show went on. :E


You know already that it didn´t work as planned, and you might guess the reason. No, it was not the speed that went wrong as they later told the interested audience during another bad weather day without any unwanted flight safety or command guys around. They just had forgotten the effect of a blownup canopy seal, which prevented the canopy from closing again. There might have been a work around, but let´s not communicate it, there are still some phantoms flying and you never know if Joe :mad:............ will try .....:ugh::ugh:

franzl

[walbut]

Geehova,
I have put a request for a copy of your forthcoming book on my Xmas wishlist.

I realise this is a pilots forum and I don't have any first hand flying stories to tell about the Phantom but I do have a few memories of my time supporting the aircraft at HSA Brough and HOSM. My first involvement was in 1970, investigating the failure of hydraulic pipes, which were a pretty frequent event in the early days. The areas most commonly affected were PC1 and PC2 pipes in the centre fuselage above the wing. On one of the squadrons OC Eng had become convinced that his airframe technicians were not making or fitting the pipes properly so he decided to give them all a lesson and made and fitted the next pipe himself. Much to his dismay, and probably the amusement of the others, it failed on the first sortie. Just as an aside, would the RAF have the capability to make a hydraulic pipe nowadays?

To investigate the problem we needed to get in and look what was happening but we could not engine run with the panels removed. We had a set of panels made with large holes cut in them and additional stiffening ribs on the outside. Initially we had no instrumentation so the investigation was going to be tactile to start with. Along with a gentle giant called Jack Stothard we established a procedure of touching the assorted pipes while running at various stabilised rpms and grading the level of vibration on a scale of 1 to 5. Then we cross calibrated ourselves by swapping sides. When were were satisfied we got reasonably consistent results we decided to do some additional runs in reheat, as we were uncertain whether the vibration was airframe induced or hydraulic pressure ripple induced.

The running bay at HOSM consisted of two ramps which the main wheels were towed up so that the jet pipes were more or less horizontal. The aircraft was chocked but the main holdback was the arrester hook which was supposed to be tensioned against a strop anchored to the ground. There was no detuner or silencer, just a large venetian blind like jet blast deflector at either end of the pan. The next run initially went well, all exciting stuff for a young engineer fresh from university, stood on the wing of the F4 with both engines in min reheat. As the runner went to max reheat the aircraft moved on the chocks as the holdback had not been properly tensioned. Just for a second I was convinced the aircraft was off through the venetian blind and we were going to be chopped up like salami. Jack and I nervously looked at each other across the top of the fuselage before turning to see the ground crew grinning broadly in the adjacent portakabin.

Our next step was to fit instrumentation in the from of pressure transducers and accellerometers to do a more scientific study. The root cause of the problem was that when the Spey engines had been introduced, the length of the pump flexible hoses had been changed and this created a hydraulic pressure ripple resonance at certain rpms. We introduced a small spherical presure damper at the end of the hoses and while it did not completely cure the problem it did reduce the nuber of pipe failures.

Some years later I was involved in the investigation of the failure the hydraulic motors which drove the standby fuel transfer pumps. These only ran in the event of electrical failure or when in reheat, to supplement the flow from the main electrically driven transfer pumps. We instrumented the pumps and decided we would do a sustained max reheat run on both engines. We particularly wanted to cover the transition as the No 4 and 6 tanks emptied to see what happened as the pumps became uncovered. Standing watching and listening to the aircraft thundering away was fantastic and after about 5 minutes of this punishment, the concrete behind the aircraft began to suffer. The top layer began to spall off and pieces of concrete the size of dinner plates were picked up by the jet blast and hurled at the venetian blind jet blast deflectors. They were shattered into smaller chunks and flew high in the air raining down on the surrounding countryside and the road which ran past the running bay. Fortunately there wasn't much traffic passing at the time. Just after the end of the run the local farmer rang up to complain that the noise was driving his bullocks mad.

Happy days, pushing forward the frontiers of aviation.

[fantom]

The BOH ejection was the result of the No 2 losing NWS and, as he left the paved surface, the nav decided to bang out. The pilot decided not to. My very good mate was the leader.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/SlimsNo2atBOH.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/Bournemouth840008.jpg

[Ali Qadoo]

It was a 43 sqn aircraft and the nav who ejected was P*t* H*mphrys (apologies if that's the wrong spelling of his surname), a Seth Effricken.

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed. He was the SA diplomatic representitive to the RAF.

[Tashengurt]

Do my eyes decieve or is that a very Tremblers looking 43 Sqn jet?

[Courtney Mil]

Maybe 43 were smart enough to borrow a tremblers jet to crash. After all...:E

[Ali Qadoo]

Do my eyes decieve or is that a very Tremblers looking 43 Sqn jet?

Tashengurt, I think you're right. Definitely a 43 ejectee though - can't for the life of me remember who the pilot was, nor whether he was 43 or 111.

[Courtney Mil]

That's easy, AQ. If it was pilot error he was tremblers, if it was a technical defect he was 43!:ok:

[gibbo568]

Following on from the Nav. ejection, a caption on a Squadron Prints picture of XS571 includes the following,


“On the morning of 21 November 1977 it suffered a nose wheel steering fault during take off and veered off the runway at a speed of 90kts. Its crew, Flt Lt s G***s and Flt Lt A M**r, both ejected but the Phantom, still on the ground, came to rest with little damage. It must be one of the few aircraft still airworthy after being abandoned by its crew”.

I arrived on 43 in 1981 as an A/Eng Tech A/P, and did not know anything about the incident, can anyone fill in any of the details?

In 1983, the then CO took a twin sticker, (XT875 I think), for 'a last check flight' before flying to Cyprus for the ACP, (he was relatively new to the squadron at the time).
A few minutes later, there was a loud screech and a double bang. No ejections, but XT875 had gone sideways down the runway, blown the main wheels, and ground the brake units down quite a bit!
Cause? Nose wheel steering runaway according the the F720B!

We were 'unable to reproduce fault', and there were no repeat events.

[walbut]

I seem to remember that the Phantom nosewheel steering system was susceptible to water ingress into the position feedback potentiometer on the noseleg. It was in a fairly exposed position, likely to get water thrown up at it by the nosewheels. A spurious feedback signal might command the steering motor in either direction with no input from the pilot, often with exciting results. By the time the fault is investigated the water may have evaporated or moved and it's NFF as a result. Then it's that tricky decision, do you change a component or leave everything as is?

[Dead Loss]

Re the Bournemouth ejection, it was indeed P**e H*******s who jumped out. The pilot was D**e H****y of Tremblers. It was supposed to be me in the back that day, but I picked up a late notice weekend away to Ramstein and P**e very kindly filled my place. It caused my then fiancée some consternation when she arrived back in the UK on the Monday from a trip aboard to discover the navigator from a Tremblers jet had ejected. She knew I was supposed to be in that jet and I hadn't been able to tell her I was in Germany instead (this was well before Internet and social media). D**e torched the 'Welcome to Bournemouth' banner as he took off across the grass. It was indeed due to the notoriously fickle NWS on the FG1.

[howiehowie93]

Gibbo586,

I was on 111 then and saw that very incident; I think it was late on a Friday Afternoon / evening and the aforementioned OC had just had the whole of his charge in the hanger to tell them that only the Aircrew were 43 Sqn and the ground crew were just Stn Support as far as he was concerned. := Then he got into his jet and spun it on the run way - something to do with the effectiveness of NWS vs rudder during the take of run as explained on my next See Off. There was much jolly banter in the NAAFI / Hendies / Commie to be overheard that weekend I can tell you.

Our boss (CCC I think it was by then) got us all in the following Monday to let us know what a jolly fine team of the 111Sqn Family we were !! :ok:

Regards
H (just a Sootie)

[Avionker]

Then its that tricky decision, do you change a component or leave everything as is?

Of course an occasional transient fault in the SSI (Seat Stick Interface) logic processing module, can explain all kinds of strange occurrences which later prove to be impossible to reproduce. ;)

[BEagle]

...the aforementioned OC had just had the whole of his charge in the hangar to tell them that only the Aircrew were 43 Sqn and the ground crew were just Stn Support as far as he was concerned.

That OC can only have been The Scottish Officer....:yuk:

[gibbo568]

I seem to remember that the F4K and F4M NWS was slightly different.

The F4M had a linear output, but the F4K was expotential, to reduce its sensitivity around the neutral, (something to to with moving around a carrier deck?)
This could have led to the pilot thinking that nothing was happening until it suddenly 'oversteered'!

Its a long time ago, and I do not have my course notes, so I stand to be corrected on this!

BEagle, you are correct as to the identity of the pilot.

[RetiredF4]

It must be one of the few aircraft still airworthy after being abandoned by its crew”.


One of our phantoms topped that one. It landed on it´s own, bent its nosegear when the jet left the runway and came to a stop in the gras, as the set power of around 90% couldn´t drive it forward any longer.
The firebrigade had easy access to shut down the engines, as the canopies had given way to the seats and their occupants. On short final a flock of birds caused an erratic evasive maneuver of the student pilot in the front seat, which scared himself that much, that he gave up the stick and grabbed for the ejection handle. The IP no longer in the backseat could do nothing else but watch the now pilotless aircraft land in the touchdownzone before he himself hit the ground.

The jet was repaired end reentered service few month later.

franzl

[Throb@30wCPDLC]

Wasn't there a "I Learnt About Flying" report once about an F4 in the Falklands that landed with aerial wire caught on the fin, shortly followed shortly by a call from an irate farmer who'd had his aerial ripped out by a low flying aircraft?

If my memory serves me correctly, the aerial was something like 30 feet above ground which meant the aircraft must have been almost scraping mud or it was inverted!!

TRUE....saw the culprit 2 days ago.......He was posted back to the UK at short notice......I had to replace him at very short notice!!:*

I think they worked out he must have got down to about 10ft.......very impressive it must have looked too!!

[Exmil]

See #51. Did he ever receive the photos I brought back?

Great timing (by Biffo?) to be there as the crew suffered a "lapse in concentration".

From memory, it was port wing low, almost 90 AOB, and the aerial was 27' agl taken into the LH engine, so about 10' would be right.

I'm glad I've never been so distracted to fly so close to something with Pk=1.
How on earth could we have mistaken the taxi way at MPA for the runway and be looking up at our groundcrew on top of the revetments whilst overshooting?

[ORAC]

Dorset Aircraft Crashes: (http://daveg4otu.tripod.com/dorset/dorcrash.html)
19-8-84 XV569/Q Phantom FG.1

Had a problem on take-off and the navigator ejected while the aircraft was still on the runway. He was badly injured in the subsequent landing but the pilot managed to keep control of the aircraft and made a safe landing at RAF Lyneham.

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1320355M.jpg

[Tinribs]

Bill Freeman had a severe case of the nose wheel thingy at Aldergrove in about 76 finishing up on the grass with the nose wheel sticking up into the cockpit.

I was the Canberra TP for the same unit, 23 MU, and saw the take off.

I don't think there ever was an explanation

There was an RAF advert running in the press at the time with a phantom and the word "Peacekeeper" The helo pilots changed it to "peacekeepoffdegrass" and put it on the mess notice board

Bill saw the funny side of it

[Ant T]

From my post #35 -

Wasn't there a "I Learnt About Flying" report once about an F4 in the Falklands that landed with aerial wire caught on the fin, shortly followed shortly by a call from an irate farmer who'd had his aerial ripped out by a low flying aircraft?
True story, but there was no "call from an irate farmer". The farmers were my father-in-law and brother-in-law, my wife took a photo of the rear half of the Phantom as it disappeared behind the house, taking out the ham radio aerial - so 30 ft is about right!! When the investigating team arrived, asking questions about when the wire had been broken, they all denied any knowledge of the flyby. Flybys were definitely encouraged and that farm would never complain. Used to get some pretty spectacular Herc flybys there too, up the valley behind the shearing shed, sadly times have changed, and lucky to get the occasional 250' pass now............

I have just scanned the photo - I had not remembered it quite right, the aircraft was not quite disappearing behind the house, but not far off it !!

(Yes Exmil - as you said above, it is Biffo's photo)

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb450/antt10/F4SDI.jpg

[MightyGem]

they all denied any knowledge of the flyby
Well done them. :ok:

[Marcantilan]

Great pic and story, thanks for sharing it! :ok:

[cornish-stormrider]

Holy Mother******ing **** **** **** ****er,
that is INSANE.

Cool as ninja's on motorcycles with shotguns though...........
Was the pilot mental? I know it was in the good old days and men were men but thats not low - thats mowing the grass.

Never in my wildest dreams would I have believed anyone went that low without proof.

Nutter, with balls and skills, but still nutter.

[500N]

"they all denied any knowledge of the flyby"

"Well done them. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif"


Agree.


How long before the photo surfaced ? :O

[si.]

I've rubbed my eyes a few times, and still think that F4 looks rather low...:D

It's a good job the thread discussing the minimum altitude over the piano keys isn't still on the front page...:)

[Courtney Mil]

...but F4 pilots weren't the ones accused of being too high over the piano keys.:cool:

[si.]

Even on a 3 deg approach, he wasn't going to make Stanley's keys at over 50' ;)

Fuse lit, no wait and watch.....:hmm:

[Courtney Mil]

The only rule at Stanley was to hit the first cable. :ok:

[Tashengurt]

In a word. Clench!

[PICKS135]

Following on from the Nav. ejection, a caption on a Squadron Prints picture of XS571 includes the following,

Sorry Gibbo, it was XV571 'A' which ran off the Leuchars runway. It was used many years later as the 43[F] Sqn Aeros jet by Sqn Ldr Ray Dixon and Fg Off B***

[Exmil]

Need to consult log book for event-to-evidence time.

There are a couple of preceding photos as well....

Ex

[gibbo568]

You are correct Picks, that was a typo! XV 571 it was!

[Upside Down]

From a hazy memory I think it was "officially" logged at 27 feet, not 30.
Believe it was also in the times of the Death Star (Mt.Pleasant), not Stanley.....
no names though......

[27mm]

Would that have been lower than "Tommy's" flypast at the Cranners grad?;)

[Onceapilot]

That's going to put the chickens off laying for a while!

OAP

[glad rag]

:hmm:

some Horiz stab angle in that picture ......

:hmm:

'member the 1435 'phinal phling and looking DOWN into the cockpits as the gentleman whizzed their way along the taxiway and into history.......dunlops definitely stowed before you ask!

Pity the new 'staish had a hand/head interface fail when he swapped over to the F3....:*

[lasernigel]

Apologies for intruding on this wonderful thread.
Ex Army but had a lot of connection through the RAF with my Mum's cousin and my Dad was ex RAF. Also always wanted to be a pilot but got glasses at 12, so that put paid to any idea at the time of being a RAF pilot.
I digress however.
There is another thread with a COI film about the Jaguar, in it the narrator says it is superior to the Phantom.
Your input Gents to any who flew both types would be read with enthusiasm.:ok:

[Courtney Mil]

No it wasn't.