EK IAD 24:35 layover

[halas]

The pairings are out :(

halas

[YYZ]

This was expected as the times are so close to JFK, hopefully some reports will go in and it may change!

[helen-damnation]

Outstation info usually come out just before the route opens. Not sure if you can find out beforehand :O

[The Turtle]

JFK outbound block 1320

IAD outbound block 1430

SEA outbound block 1420 two day layover

Ive heard we're to stay at the Tyson's Corners Marriott. It is a nice hotel. A nice, but not inexpensive, mall nearby. It is not near central DC. In fact, it is in the state of Virginia. About a 30 minute bus ride from the airport to the hotel, if no traffic. There is a metro stop near Tyson's which you can use to visit the Mall in DC, i think its about 5km from the hotel (maybe a shuttlebus???...i dunno) then 30-40 min metro into Union Station. This setup is like like SFO, its not in the city. We'll park at the standard international gates, and I think we'll need to take a bus to immigration, which will add to our time, I figure its an hour plus from parking brake to hotel, easy.

And I think that IAD block time is on the low side, if you get a northbound landing, in the am rush. Figure all winter long for northbound landings. Keep recovering.

[Iver]

Tyson's Corner is not a bad place in Northern Virginia. You will find a new Orange Line stop not far from that hotel that will take you to Washington DC monuments in about 25 minutes. I agree the traffic to/from IAD can be dicey.

Tyson's Corner does have some nice restaurants and shopping too. Visited a mate in that area a few months ago.

Sorry, but that layover time sounds exhausting after that flight time. Good luck with that! :eek:

For comparison, you should find out where your Qatar 777 counterparts stay. Same area or in DC proper? Similar layover time? Do they get 24 or 48 hours? Fall in the DC area should be lovely....

[CR9]

Time for some ASR's !!! By the time all is said and done we will have less than 20 hours at the hotel. Completely, unacceptable for a flight like this!

[Track]

Just curious, how much time off in DXB does such a rotation generate?

[ironbutt57]

Think a mate of mine at KLM years back told me they did a bit of a study and found either 18, or 36 hr layover was by far preferable to 24hr one...

[fatbus]

50% of the the pilots will love the shorter layover,good hours and less time away from family in dubai the other 50% want the opposite

[atiuta]

97.3% of statistics are made up.

[Bypass ratio]

Dubai(DXB) to Washington(IAD) is only 165nm further than New York(JFK)......

[The Turtle]

you don't seriously think this routing will be over JFK then direct (or airways) IAD.....do you? c'mon man, that's some of the most densely packed airspace in the world! No, this routing most likely will be further inland, over western new york (the state), pennsylvania, then Prztl.4 or Hypr1.alb. Then south of the field for a visual to the 1's.

to call it 165nm although correct really isn't.

For this pairing its 21 hrs at best at the hotel. Daylight savings time east coast, dark at what...5-6pm? Your at a hotel on a busy throughfare (think SFO), not much to do if you wake up 9-11 pm.

This ain't Manhattan. Can't find something to do late in Northern Va.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

ironbutt57
depends on the time of day. I work for a UK airline and our rules much like EK suggest a 24hr rest period isn't brilliant. That's based on the charter mentality of day time flights UK to USA, night flight back with a time zone shift thrown in.
However, i work in express packages now and we do a night / day transition to USA with a 24hr rest period. Quick sleep on arrival in USA, get up, have a nights kip on UK local, get up and fly home. 24hrs rest period - absolutely the best.
So its down to the route, times, length, TZ shifts etc and you almost have to look at every pairing:\

[Panther 88]

Problem here Mr. angry is that this is added to probably 80 other hours in the month. And we are not credited hours for time not at the controls if we are the augmenting crew. Apples and Pears.

[helen-damnation]

If you feel strongly about it, use the frms link. I suspect the 380 guys will be doing so for the 203.:eek:

[White Knight]

I suspect the 380 guys will be doing so for the 203.

Well, from what I recall (good old days of 340-500 doing the 203/204) it's actually a p1ss easy trip... I look forward to it again. Good credit, not too much time away from home, easy flying and half of it sleeping:ok::ok::ok:

Sorry to hear that you B guys struggle to sleep well:}:}:}:

[The Turtle]

Well some of the first fatigue reports are starting to come in.....I haven't done the trip myself, but I've spoken to a few that have, and they have stated that the return crew/cabin crew are pretty wiped out from this one. One cabin crew I spoke to said she awoke at midnight before a 9 am report time and could not go to sleep, and that others were effected like this as well.

Wondering if the three reports for seven days is accurate or has it been "sanitized"

[B737NG]

I had the same in the past: 26 hours ground time after around 13-14 hours block time where a killer. I tried everything but at the end of the day I was dead tired. Sleeping after arrival, wake up too early after a solid sleep- stayed awake until or short before wake up call and got tired during the early stage of the flight. Stayed awake longer after arrival, overdone it and could not get sufficient recovery sleep before departure and woke up after a short time, mostly thru the help of housekeeping who started to work at normal hours whilst we sleep in theire opinion at odd hours for them.


Contacted the Company about that problem as a Expat.... see belows solution.

Answer of Crew Planning was= It is legal..... Answer of Chief Pilot was= We have difficult times. Written reports where good for the stack.

At the end of the day I gave up on the higher money and fly from home again, 20 min to the Airport to drive, sleeping in the own bed by 29 days per month again, also terrific.

Flying becomes too cheap and the screw is not tight enough yet, budgeting is around everywhere and the beancounters love to squezze a little more out of the lemon. When is bottom reached? There is room left, I am sure.

[springbok449]

Have to agree with WK, I for one will miss it when it goes over to our colleagues on the 380 especially the 5203 rotation...

[CR9]

24hours is ok if you get a good amount of time at home...Most of the Boeing guys are doing 90+ hours a month, every month still!! Sorry, but those of you that think that is it safe and sustainable let alone healthy you are out of your minds.... United's layover out of IAD in DXB is 28hours and that is short for them, however they like it because unlike EK once they hit the 70-80 hour mark they're done. So, for them its 3 dxb trips=9 days of work= 21 days off! If we did it like that here then nobody would have a problem with 24hr layovers. Anyway, not a rant just comparing apples to oranges. The fact is EK doesn't give a hoot about our rest or well being its all about maximum efficiency here which they make abundantly clearer by the year. A day less on a ULR or shorter layover's in general (look at the amount less than 24 on the cargo side this month) just means they can insert a day extra of work somewhere else...... Fly safe fella's

[TangoUniform]

And remember, augmenting "bunk time" is not calculated into one's monthly hours. So if one flies two ULRs a month, you won't be credited for anywhere from 12-15 hours. Think what might be added to one's roster.

[clear to land]

B777 ULR Pairings (at present) :LAX,SFO,SEA,GRU,BNE,SYD,MEL,DFW,IAH, IAD and JFK (soon to be all A380). Feel free to add if I have missed any...in addition we also run NRT,KIX and PER as 3 man ops.

[fringhtok]

GIG

On the subject of IAD, the timings are very similar to JFK and that's been around quite a while with few complaints. What's changed?

As to factoring, it's still possible but I haven't heard of it happening to anyone in quite a while. Anyone had it happen to them?

[The Turtle]

Its blocked more than an hour longer than JFK, its shorter then SEA, which is a two day layover

You are at a hotel where if you wake up at 11pm, unlike JFK where you are in Manhattan, you can take a walk, maybe grab a bite to eat, tire yourself out, then catch some zzzz's before your show. You can't do that in IAD. Plus, your time actually spent at the hotel (I'm told) is like 21 hrs.

Don't you find this unacceptable? For this long a flight? And this is without delays, mx, wx.

[jumbocpt]

the mideast airline i flew for stayed in the same hotel in Tysons Corner and did 33 hour layovers block to block in IAD.
it was difficult even when i was a younger age. Good luck. it's a nice hotel. and easy to walk around the area and to the nearby mall.

[McGreaser]

Unless people keep the ASR's coming each week rather than moaning on PPRuNe nothing will change:=

[helen-damnation]

If you have a valid reason, then ASR and FRMS.

It's the only way it'll change.

[McGreaser]

I thought the short IAD layover (the end result being insufficient rest) was a valid reason to write an ASR......unless am damned helen :confused: Needless to say i get the feeling we're both batting for the same team

[millerscourt]

If you have a valid reason, then ASR and FRMS.

It's the only way it'll change.

Not with those like White Knight who think it is fine:{

[fringhtok]

I've now done a couple of these. I still remain a bit unconvinced. They're certainly not great. But, 'unsafe'? I'm sceptical. The 5231 is significantly better than the alternative, if you have the option. The cabin crew are definitely up in arms and the vast majority filled out fatigue reports- on both flights. However, these were the same crew that spent the day we arrived out sightseeing. Both flights. The problem, as I see it, is precedent. Had a look at the number of Fatigue ASRs generated from JFK? Seattle is similar timing but three extra time zones and a 'normal' sign on time. I certainly would appreciate another 24 hours but I'm not convinced it's a necessity and not a desire.......

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Banana

Fring is suggesting self management of rest may have contributed to the sleepiness, not sure fatigue is appropriate although it could be. :\

[The Turtle]

Macrohard

Three differences I see to IAD. GRU gets four more hours. Doesn't seem like much on paper, but can make a HUGE difference when you have trouble sleeping, need to get yourslf up in the middle of a rest, tire yourself out again, then catch some more zzzz's. Two, it departs at a good time for the operating crew outbound. Three, its a closer timezone to Dubai, and I think (sorry cannot remember exactly) that in winter the sun doesnt set at 4:30p like I know it does in DC...that will knacker your sleep pattern as well. And people did complain about GRU, they changed the timings awhile back to avoid the traffic and it made a difference.

And that post regarding precedent vs safety....wow. That thinking is mind boggling. What's next, Atlanta? Miami?

I'm done with this thread. We are our worst enemy. I want to be fresh and safe for my 15-18 hrs duty. Thats not too much to ask.

[TangoUniform]

Don't abandon us Sr. Terrapin. This rotation is not flown in a vacuum. If we were flying only 70-80 hours ( as a few f/o'sare doing), it might not be so awful. But with many capt's flying over 90 hrs, this ULR can be exhausting. It's the cumulative affect on the circadian rythym. And as I have stated before, those hours will not include augmenting nonflying "flight time". Can someone enlighten me if other airlines apply this policy?

[Trader]

There is no conspiracy.

The simple fact is that it is a night departure out of Dubai (so you wake up before midnight) with almost 15 hrs flt time to DC (about 1:15 longer than JFK).

You arrive at the hotel mid morning and have about 21 hours before pick up.

So you have been awake almost 20 hours less the bit of rest (won't call it sleep) you had in the bunk and you have a decision to make!!

You want to sleep, but if you do you'll be up in 8 or 9 hours with 10-11 hours till pick up time - in order to operate another ULR back to DXB.

Or you can attempt to stay awake (and traipze around playing tourist as one poster criticized the crew for doing) for as long as possible so that you can sleep adequately for the flight back.

While doing this you are 8 hours out of your time zone. So in this block you have missed one goods night sleep (the departing night) and you lose the 2nd good night by trying to prepare for the next flight.

If you stay up at arrival and attempt to stay awake so that you can rest for 8 hours or so before wake up you flip to the back side of your time zone again and, like most crew seem to do, you wake up 3 or 4 hours before call time since it is day/wake time in DXB.

Either way you are tired.

Combine this with 90 hours months and I am sorry, but fatigue is an issue. It is not rocket science and basic logic should show it is a difficult flight.

[helen-damnation]

(so you wake up before midnight

Assuming you've managed to get some sleep in the first place. Even if you have, chances are you won't have had much.

[fliion]

This idea that GRU & JFK are not causing fatigue is rubbish.

The difference was that when we started operating the pairings we were flying 75-78 per month with the ability to get 5+ consecutive block days off to achieve recovery. This is no longer the case.

If we were to start the GRU/JFK ASRs now recognizing the punitive nature mgt react to those not towing the line - then we could be putting ourselves into a tricky situation.

We all know what happened with GIG-EZE... A widely quoted and reported meeting took place where a certain dept said: "let's try the shuttle and see how they react". Thankfully we reacted.

Now if an incident/accident were to occur as a result of fatigue on the IAD pairing and we as pilots did not register our concern (assuming they are legit - have not done it yet)... Then to a point - we are somewhat covered.

If we do nothing and the event occurs on your watch and you cry: "fatigue!" cue the response from mgt "This pairing has had no reports of fatigue - so that's not the issue here"

To quote a wise Dutch politician : "Thus far, but no further"

Because when Philly, Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta & Miami come - Boston out because of JFK precedent - we better have the line drawn on safety or someone is going to get hurt

f.

[Craggenmore]

26 hours ground time after around 13-14 hours block time where a killer.

Are you now working for a LCC..? Then you must be on 12 hours ground time after a 13-14 hours block time duty and 5 days in a row..?

Weird..!

[ManaAdaSystem]

Are you now working for a LCC..? Then you must be on 12 hours ground time after a 13-14 hours block time duty and 5 days in a row..?

Weird..!

Not weird and not correct. In Europe 13-14 hrs flight duty equals 13-14 hrs rest.
It's clear you have never done any flights outside your own time zone, or you would know the effects jet lag will give when you travel across time zones.
Throw jet lag into the equation, and it's a completely different ball game.