Tornado GR4 withdrawl from service 2019

[Ronald Reagan]

End of GR4 in 2019.

UK Tornado fleet to retire in 2019, says BAE (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-tornado-fleet-to-retire-in-2019-says-bae-375014/)

[keesje]

I feel Europe needs a real Tornado replacement.

2 seats, 2 engines, range, steatlh

but I see nothing on the horizon, so I'm probably wrong..

[Willard Whyte]

P'raps we should persuade Northrop to open up a F-23B production line.

[Jollygreengiant64]

With the RAF on track to be closed in 2016 who will operate them for the last few years?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

G4S of course!

[iRaven]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/damian2/Profiles/My%20Profiles/F-35/F-35Dcompblank.png

F-35D, anyone? The Israelis have been asking for them, but hey, what would they know about combat ops :ugh:

(that last bit was sarcasm by the way)

iRaven

[Sir George Cayley]

2 seats, 2 donks, range and stealth?

Well it's obvious init ;)

The original Multi Role Combat Aircraft ........................


Canberra :ok::ok:

SGC

[Willard Whyte]

Stealth?

I suppose no-one would ever believe they were being flow in this day and age, and simply ignore it.

I get your point but not really stealth per se.

[Ronald Reagan]

Shame there is not going to be an FB-22 Strike Raptor :(

[Scruffy Fanny]

Slightly worried as an ex bck seater your F35 D nice as it is has no bloody bang seat in the back !!!

[iRaven]

Scruffy Fanny

I can see a headbox in the back.

Oh, and get a haircut! :E

iRaven

[keesje]

Various studies were done in the past. Recently Boeing launched a stealthier version of the strike Eagle (which is very un stealthy..)

I guess Europe could step in. But the issue is everyone sits on their specific requirements and demands a fair share for their own industry. Hampering every european project. And resulting in e.g. the Typhoon having no stealth, thrust vectoring, range and phased array radar and a substandard air to ground capability. When everyone could see it was a good idea 20 yrs ago, but couldn't change the politically negotiated contract..

Simply giving e.g Dassault the required billions and deadline and have them hire the best euro supply chain is undiscussable.. we demand a fair slice of the pie and country specifics & the costs and planning explodes in our faces..

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z160/keesje_pics/fb22e.jpg

[Willard Whyte]

Looks like a F-23 with a stealthified TSR-2 cockpit bolted on.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Replica testbed.

[Lowe Flieger]

...the issue is everyone sits on their specific requirements and demands a fair share for their own industry. Hampering every european project...The system of procurement for complex weapons systems such as 5th generation fighters is just not fit for purpose in my opinion. The costs are so huge that you have to have multinational collaboration; In Europe this inevitably means a variety of conflicting military, political and commercial agendas which will push and pull the project around from start to finish. It will take so long to complete that once you've got there, you've forgotten why you needed it in the first place. You may end up with just what is required at that time - if you are very lucky. So you have to make it multi/omni/swing role to hedge your bets, but that means more compromise along the way.

I am struggling to rationalise how we got here, but guess it's a combination of defence companies over-specifying and under-pricing at the outset, which whets the appetite of the military brass for the latest and shiniest new kit that will solve all their conundrums. As soon as they understand what they are getting, they will then change the specifications half-way through development. Governments moaned and groaned about escalating costs, but times were good and taxation could always sort it out. But that's no longer true, and some projects which were started in the champagne days are having to be finished as the soup kitchens multiply. It's also probably due to a change in society which does not accept military casualties as in the past, and therefore technology is expected to reduce individual risk at the expense of very great complexity and cost. Hard to argue against if you're the guy at the sharp end.

So there's the problem. It's just the solution that's the difficult bit. If the world economy suddenly reignites, the process goes back to how it was before - not efficient, not correct but manageable and accepted. If it doesn't then you just have to get through the current batch of costly, inefficient projects and wait for the good times to return and memory to fade before aiming high again. I don't think we learn from history.

Of course, you may think very differently.

[Lima Juliet]

The full-size version of the BAES Replica that I saw was most definately single-seat. Here is a picture from the internet:

http://img1.ranker.com/list_img/1/115367/full/bae-systems-aircraft-and-jets-and-planes.jpg?version=1340695376000

Looked bloody impressive though, all the same :ok:

One of the workers pointed out that its cancellation was "another TSR2 moment" :O

LJ

[ColdCollation]

Wasn't Replica more of a door-knocker, though - in the sense that it was used to say to the Americans: "This is what we can do and if you don't let us into F-35 we can go it alone."...?

Or was it ever seriously mooted as a finished product?

[Willard Whyte]

Replica testbed.

Wing and fins are defo YF-23.

[Thelma Viaduct]

That's my point, the capability is here, but is the will?

[iRaven]

Sorry about the size - unable to resize on my iPad. But this is the FB-23 from the YF-23 program...

http://notreally.info/transport/planes/rta/fb-23/img//fb-23_fb-23.jpg

[keesje]

I really wonder if investing more billions into the Typhoon to make it a so so bomber ( stealth, range, radar) is the best solution for replacing the Tornado's.

The Russians replace the Fencers with SU-34s that have a lot of range, enormous radar, pressured flightdeck and even a galley, toilet and some room to stretch on long flights.

http://www.ausairpower.net/VVS/Su-34-EO-Targeting-System-2S.jpg

I read somewhere the Russians came with this configuration after evaluating flighttests with long, complicated mission over Russia with several refuels, using tandem cockpit Flankers. The crew looked " grey" and their abilities were severly diminished after those flights..