Cabin crew to Pilot? Will it work?

[Mikeoscar94]

Good afternoon all,

I am in my final year of A - levels and nearing the end of my PPL.

I have been looking at my options for when I leave next year and I was wondering, is it possible to become cabin crew and then self fund an fATPL by flying on days off and such?

My local airports are EMA and BHX and have noticed Flybe have been recruiting a lot of cabin crew. After doing some research, their cabin crew salary is roughly £1000-1400/ month. If I'm living at home with my parents, would this be a sufficient income to fund pilot training with an FTO such as Aeros?

If not cabin crew, then maybe ground ops/ airside jobs?

[First.officer]

It's a valid route to take, did it myself and if nothing else, it gives you the chance to network, get the feel for the airlines and earn cash to fund flying as you rightly say......

[Poose]

You can afford to pursue flying with that income... :ok:

PM me if you want some more detailed advice.

[student88]

I did it also, brilliant experience. It worked well for me - good luck!

[Joe86]

Try engineering?

I was in the same boat as you... finished A-levels wanted to fly, but had no chance of getting the cash. I would pick whichever job role will give you the best chance of passing ATPL exams, thats why I went into engineering/design (I started as an apprentice). A friend of mine was in flight Ops, said it was great and not badly paid.

Cabin crew... maybe but I would try engineering or flight Ops first :).

[Mikeoscar94]

Ah I would go into engineering.. but unfortunately my Dad works in the hanger for Flybe at BHX and has made certain that I won't be going into aircraft engineering.. ;P

[student88]

I found that the best job to have when training modular is one which pays well and gives you lots of time off. The ATPL course is designed to teach you what you need to know so no need to find a job that'll make the course easier.

[EGGD]

Hello Michael,

It is very prudent of you to start thinking about your options at this stage. I too worked as Cabin Crew before 'upgrading' to the Flight Deck. I could not tell you whether the salary is sufficient to fund your training but it certainly wasn't bad, take home pay was up to £1700 a month on the lowest salary scale point for a charter airline. The only negatives are that you may not get a permanent contract or only offered part year working which may work to your advantage when it comes to fitting in your training.

The advantages of the job is that you will learn lots of practical skills that you wouldn't gain from burying your head in books, they are a lot more valuable when things start to go wrong on a bad day! Cabin Crew are the only employees who are regularly able to visit the flight deck when the aircraft is in flight, which will give you plenty of scope to learn about the working environment and understand what the job requires. There almost undoubtedly be chances to observe Departures/Arrivals sitting in the flight deck on position flights (flights without passengers). There are also opportunities to 'jump seat' on your days off and gain valuable advice from your flight crew. They will offer you plenty of support and depending on the size of the base you are at you will get to know people well and vice versa. When it comes down to it your actual flying skills and technical knowledge don't count for a lot when it actually comes to getting your foot in the door, your face has to fit and you get the best opportunity to prove that in the job.

You may also get access to certain websites and material handed to you from Flight Crew that will have information on the job, Company operating procedures etc that will be valuable to you. Most aircraft have training materials (either manufacturer published or created by third parties) that describe aircraft systems and design that can be useful in reinforcing the knowledge you will learn during your ATPL theory exams.

Other aviation related jobs have their own advantages but nowhere else will you get as 'involved' in the operation of an airliner and appreciate the bigger picture, and in a relatively short amount of time. From application if you have the right skills (sales/hospitality experience is necessary, oh and common sense) you can be on an aeroplane in 2 months and from the start of your training you will be learning valuable information and skills.

I did some training at Aero's and I know that you impress them as well, they will help you. They have links with Flybe (I don't know how deep these links lie, but they are there) and it can't hurt your chances. Just show people your enthusiasm without being obtrusive, get to know people and be thorough and positive in your training. Opportunities will arise if you tick the right boxes.

You're asking the right questions so you have got a good grasp on the situation, good luck!

[Mikeoscar94]

EGGD,

Thank you for your comments, they have been a lot of help for me for the future.

By the way, do you now have a flying job?

[EGGD]

No problem. Yes, I am extremely lucky to have a decent job on a jet airliner and on a very decent salary.

[Syntax]

MikeOscar94,

I saw quite a number of Cabin Crew do this where I work. They made good contacts within the airline, worked hard and got a name for themselves as good crew to work with. When they qualified they were able to meet with the Chief Pilot who they were on first name terms with and had flown together enough times to be remembered. When there were interviews they had one. That was about ten years ago though!

The big benefit apart from anything is that if you live with your folks and genuinely live quietly and save hard you could enter flying with a tiny fraction of the debt level that others have. My only regret careerwise is borrowing so much, it's bloody hard work paying it back. Keep clear of debt as much as you can.

[Mikeoscar94]

Thank you! :)


Initially I plan to apply to the APEM cadet scheme at Chester but this will be my backup :)

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Excellent advice from EGGD.

For the record while I was at Bmi, I saw 4 guys go from Cabin Crew to right hand seat, and they are now loving it!

All the best mate.

[Joe86]

On another positive note, I know two engineers who have also moved to the flight deck... When theres a will, theres a way :).

[Otto Throttle]

Whilst EGGD makes some valid arguments for the potential benefits of being CC, unfortunately the working life of the average CC at Flybe will not provide you with the opportunities suggested, such as plenty of access to the flight deck. Mostly short sectors, less than 60 minutes, and as junior crew you'll be limited to guarding the door whilst the senior hands in the occasional cup of tea. Very few empty sectors, unlike a charter, so you might get one jumpseat ride during your familiarisation flights, but unlikely to get the opportunity again.
The money isn't great, and you don't get much time off. The company works you hard. However, it can be a lot of fun and there is generally a good, close working relationship between crews. If you're determined to pursue this route, then do your sums. It can be done and there are definitely worse ways to spend your working life.
Lastly, I strongly recommend that if you take this route then treat the job seriously. Nothing will annoy your CC colleagues more than a wannabee pilot who can't be bothered and who thinks the job is a joke and only has an interest in getting to the other side of the door. In a small company like Flybe, an attitude like that will also come back and bite you in the bum because people talk, and it doesn't take long before the Flight Ops management get to know about you for all the wrong reasons. You can guess whether that will open doors for you or not.

[Poose]

I can only really echo a lot of the excellent advice that has already been given from an Aerospace Engineering perspective.

My starting salary worked out about £1400 after tax, NI and Student Loan.

I would say, credit card the PPL. Hour build for two to three years while you do the ATPLs, using your wages - I did about two hours a month. I used a Career Development Loan for Ground School.

Kill off all debts ASAP. You'll need a spot on Credit Rating to lend 20-25k unsececured for your CPL/IR.

Pit falls. This takes years and you'll end up with no girlfriend, a crap car, few nights out, no holidays and it will take years. But if you want it bad enough it can be done... :ok:

[Mikeoscar94]

Thank you everyone for your kind advice! :) It really is helpful for me and I can see myself taking this route next September.

Of course I would not focus on trying to work for Flybe, but rather any operator hiring at that point.

As said previously, I would also look at Flight ops if a vacancy was available within an airline.

[bex88]

Listen to EGGD. You don't always know who you are talking to on here but I can back up his statement. He was always polite and watched new pilots join the company without ever voicing his frustration. I quickly worked out he was not your usual cabin crew and asked him if he was a pilot. At no point was he ever pushy or intrusive and because of his attitude and personality every pilot wanted to make sure he got a opportunity. Pilots who could helped open some doors which then enabled him to display his ability to do the job. Not many people could do what he did and if you work as cabin crew I think many pilots will have a great deal of respect for you. I think it is perhaps the best way of getting in if you have more modest resources and cant fund type ratings etc etc.:D

[Mikeoscar94]

Thankyou, definitely going to apply for this now :-)

[EGGD]

Good Points from OttoThrottle, I do agree with you that the right attitude is necessary. A member of cabin crew once told me that there was a wannabe pilot on their selection day. His attitude was poor and he wasn't seen beyond the first morning. If you apply you will have to prepare to work hard, but by doing this you will prove yourself ultimately capable of adapting to working environments that perhaps don't match your skillset and that is a very worthy talent indeed.

I do think though that even though Flybe wont afford the same regularity of opportunities you will be there long enough to get noticed. If you work hard people from both sides of the door will do what they can to help you and that is a big step closer to an opportunity if one comes up

I know of people in flight ops and engineering positions within airlines who have been offered First Officer positions although I can't give you much background information on each. It is possible whatever route you take, the key whatever you choose to do is that you show your skills, ability and enthusiasm and you will get noticed. Just don't expect it to be straight away, but keep working and you will get there!

Cheers

[Joe86]

Following what poose said, Yes a good credit rating is important, luckily for me I had no student loan to pay back. The pit falls are very true... but I do have a GF = she is just very annoyed ;).Good luck with your career!

[fade to grey]

Can you not try and get an ops job ? Then you will at least be learning about the sort of stuff you are interested in.Worked for a few guys at my old firm, in fact the ops support we got was not always the greatest with them reading their manuals and what not.

No disrespect to the CC, but the job has little relevance to what happens on the other side of the door other than dealing with awkward people...

[Mikeoscar94]

Thankyou Joe86!

I was worried as I have a girlfriend too. (not annoyed...yet!) ;)

[EGGD]

Can you not try and get an ops job ? Then you will at least be learning about the sort of stuff you are interested in.Worked for a few guys at my old firm, in fact the ops support we got was not always the greatest with them reading their manuals and what not.

No disrespect to the CC, but the job has little relevance to what happens on the other side of the door other than dealing with awkward people...

Actually, I beg to differ. There are many relevant skills involved in the role of a Cabin Crew member that go far deeper than just 'dealing with awkward people.' I fail to see how a job in operations could be any more useful, yes you would understand more about what goes on behind the scenes which is great. I would be delighted to hear of what skills and knowledge that you would acquire that would add value to your career as a pilot. Certainly, being a place where you can earn money whilst reading your manuals is not the most compelling argument.

[BAe 146-100]

Good luck on affording the training+type rating on cc wages and living any kind of reasonable lifestyle to accommodate it.

[bucket_and_spade]

My girlfriend is CC and has a PPL (paid for from savings built up while living with her parents). She can't maintain it due to the costs (and her salary) and has no debts, owns her car, has modest outgoings etc.

If CC wages are your sole way of paying for training, my gut instinct is that you should look at a much better paid job to help pay for everything - what's your background/qualifications?

Yes, some good contacts etc. are probably to be had as CC but that's useless if it takes you years and years to get the licences...

[Mikeoscar94]

Cheers BAe.

[Mikeoscar94]

bucket_and_spade,

I am a second year A level student nearing the end of a PPL.

I have 9 GCSEs with C grade and above in all subjects and I am currently a Corporal in the Royal Air Force Air Cadets.

I also have gained my Bronze, Silver and Gold Duke Of Edinburgh Awards.


If I do find a better paid job that is related to aviation and gives me a chance to get my face known, then I'll take it.

[fade to grey]

First of all good luck Mike, it's not easy.Keep up the ATC stuff, I left as a CWO, enjoyed every minute.

EGGD, I'll beg to differ too. I'm not sure what ops do at your airline but traditionally ops will gain an insight of:
-aircraft operations
-flight plans/flight planning
-aircraft performance
-MEL
-loading
-ETOPS dispatch
-maintenance requirement
-crisis management
-liasing with flight crew/fuellers/outside agencies/slot control

As cabin crew, you'll get the standard bumpf on first aid/security/ making tea. I don't think it's as useful IMHO.
I think Mike is working the angle of 'getting a foot in the door', but i can't imagine as junior cabin crew he'll be having lunch with the Chief Pilot on a daily basis. 'Getting your face known' never worked for anyone I know from a CC point of view.I can name several CC who were wannabe airline pilots who several years down the line have not moved.

Personally I'd concentrate on a job to get as much cash as quick as possible to start training, once through the training I'd consider working for an airline in a supplementary role, because you are ready then.

[Mikeoscar94]

Cheers fade to grey :-)

Everyone must remember this is only a backup. I have been in contact with APEM and from what I have heard they might do their cadet scheme again next year. If I dont get that then I will look at aviation related jobs whilst saving part time and a bit of private flying each month (1-3 hours) until I have saved up the total amount. Again in coming years I'll keep applying to cadet schemes (hopefully more will show up) and when I turn 20, I'll be able to apply for the West Atlantic Cadet Scheme. Doing it this way gives me a chance to fly a bit each month, have a job in aviation with the opportunity to network and gives me the chance to apply to any cadet schemes that usually require a PPL at the max.

Thank you everyone for your kind advice :-)

[Mikeoscar94]

By the way, does anyone know how often ops jobs pop up? I have seen Ops Assistant for a flying school advertised in Pilot magazine a few months ago which looked interesting but not sure on the salary. I would also try A/G operator or FISO if any paid vacancies were around but I don't know where to look!
Obviously some vacancies won't be advertised on aviationjobsearch or flight global jobs so is it a case of just phoning around?

[EGGD]

fade to grey -

All interesting information as I've said before, but in these instances most of this isn't relevant to the job that you will be doing and there are no skills as such. The knowledge that you will learn isn't necessary in many cases, that is why we have operations departments in the first place. Airline operations are very complex and it would be impossible to have knowledge of everything involved in getting an airliner into the sky. I'm more interested in the actual skills you learn as cabin crew and the familiarity of working in such a pressured environment.

Working on an airliner is very unique, there are many pressures involved with doing so that you cannot replicate anywhere else. For a start you have the added physiological issues associated with being on an airliner, the affects of working in a pressurised cabin where the cabin altitude can be up to 8000ft and with recycled air conditioned air that has a very low humidity. Working long hours and on a disruptive roster, possibly flying through multiple time zones and turnarounds in difficult weather conditions (rain, snow, ice, heat, humidity, wind).

Then there is the added time pressures, especially during Emergencies where every action that you take is time critical and could have very severe consequences if they are not done with care. Just like being a pilot, these situations are rarely experienced but do occur and are trained for on a regular basis, discussed before every flight and mentally prepared for. There are time pressures in getting the aircraft turned around on time, this is especially true of operations in a low-cost airline such as Flybe where turnaround times are extremely important. These time pressures extend to safety considerations such as securing the cabin, security checks and even the on board service. I know of many people as cabin crew who got behind on whatever their duties were, just like new airline pilots can be behind the aircraft they are flying.

You also become very familiar with all the aspects of the operation on the ground, you are in contact with the despatchers more than the flight crew and you have direct communication and work with the cleaners, caterers and other areas of the ground crew. You are more aware of what is going on on turnarounds as you are either in the cabin or possibly on the ground, or on the airbridge. As both cabin crew and flight crew I have had other members of cabin crew spot defects with the aircraft both externally and internally, including problems with oil and fuel. Things that can easily get missed on walkarounds or by other ground crew. Asking questions with engineers, despatchers and other staff around the aircraft and you can find out some very interesting things about the type you are operating on that may not be in your operations manuals.

First aid is an interesting one as well. Whilst the training on First Aid is quite intensive it doesn't really prepare you for how difficult it can be to deal with an in flight emergency when someone falls ill. In many ways, a mechanical emergency requiring flight crew action is much easier, in almost all cases there is a checklist for it in the QRH and if it is very time critical you will have memorised recall actions for the associated problem. In the event of a medical problem it will almost always rely on your knowledge and your ability in problem solving to resolve it. I have heard of some horrendous illnesses/injuries that require very practical skills and quick thinking to deal with. This is something which can only be learnt with life experience, something in the past that some pilots going through training have been accused of being deficient in.

There is also something to be said for making a decent cup of tea! Equally, if you are capable of this you will get in your own cabin crews good books if you get that dream job in the right hand seat.

Of course, all of these skills CAN be learnt, and I'm not saying that they will. A lot of people train to be cabin crew and work for a certain time in the profession, but many leave and I know that most cannot cope with the pressures involved or the difficulty of doing the job WELL and so progressing beyond seasonal cabin crew. In many ways this is the best test of ones abilities and my feelings after doing so myself is that if you can handle the pressure of being cabin crew then you can handle being flight crew. This is of course in parallel to your handling skills being up to scratch but no job mentioned in this thread can condition you for that.

I hope perhaps this is of interest for you or anyone else who is skeptical of what you can learn as cabin crew. I think any career in aviation is a valuable one if being a pilot in the future is your goal, but I can think of few that will be more relevant when you look at the bigger picture.

Cheers!

[Mikeoscar94]

Once again, thank you EGGD :-)

I suppose my first aid qualification and my tea-making abilities will come in useful if I do come to the world of CC :-)

Anyone got any advice on applying for sponsorship for an aerial survey company in the North West of England? :P

Kind regards,

Mike