In, Out, In, Out, Shake It All About - MTP PCS

[Corporal Clott]

I've just read the latest note and AP1358 AL15 to Chapter 2 and it would seem that we are to now TUCK IN our new Personal Clothing System (PCS) Multi-Terrain Pattern (MTP) uniform! We are also NOT to wear the new tone down rank badges but wear the normal blue slides and rank braid. Also, RAF Stable Belts are allowed and rolling up sleeves at the discretion of the individual "should the temperature dictate". Brevets and Regt "Mudguards" are the only badges allowed to be sewn onto the jackets. The RAF Tactical Recognition Flash is being replaced with a RAF Logo'd Badge.

But only "on base"...

...on Ops, we go back to untucked and sleeves down! :ugh:

You just couldn't make it up; "in, out, in, out"...hang on? Sounds like a song I know!

CPL Clott

[MG]

An RAF logo'd badge? Perhaps we could have it all sponsored? By G4S, perhaps?
At least you're being issued it. There's a stn close to my heart that is 'making a statement' by not issuing it because we don't have enough storemen. This all despite ordering it according to our sizes and having it sat on the shelves. By the time it's sorted out, half of the stn will have changed over.

[Lima Juliet]

I've seen the RAF Logo Patch and it looks a bit like this...

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/ROYAL-AIRFORCE-RAF-Forces-Logo-Patch-/00/s/MjYxWDQ4Mg==/$(KGrHqV,!iME7Etvwjy)BPrk+U3gL!~~60_12.JPG

In other words - F^cking gopping! :yuk:

[CoffmanStarter]

I'm surprised that an additional strap line of ... Sponsored By ... hasn't been added. Lord Trenchard must be Barral Rolling in his grave :(

[MG]

Good, that looks totally military and not too Boy Scout! :ugh:

Did they produce toned-down rank slides for officers or was it just for other ranks?

[Lima Juliet]

MG

Did they produce toned-down rank slides for officers or was it just for other ranks?

Yup, for officers as well - they are similar to No 5 rank braid but in brown (:yuk:). It makes us all look like Matelots...

LJ

[SirToppamHat]

MG

Assuming a genuine question ... the toned-down rank slides exist for all ranks.

Depending on the actual bit of the pattern which exists underneath it, the rank can be almost impossible to distinguish except at very close range, but then I guess that's the intent in th. When back on base it seems sensible to revert to normal ones, which many people were doing anyway before the new directive came out.

Edited to add that Leon beat me to it, and I agree with his assessment of them.

Edited again to add that the following extract purports to be the latest policy:

Royal Air Force Combat Uniform Dress Policy

After consideration of the Defence policy on the wearing of the new Personal Clothing System Combat Uniform (PCS CU), the RAF has decided to make a number of adjustments which are consistent with the DIB issued in Feb 2011 on the introduction of the Personal Clothing System and the intent in Joint DIN 2008DIN01-200 ‘The Wearing of Uniform in Public - Standards of Dress and Behaviour’.

This policy change is intended to help maintain the RAF’s profile in the public eye when wearing combat uniform by allowing the use of standard RAF blue rank slides and braid, stable belts and the introduction of an RAF specific badge. These changes will also come into effect for the deployed phase of Op OLYMPIC for RAF personnel in the Venue Security Force who may be wearing PCS CU to undertake such tasks as vehicle searches.

The most significant change is that when Royal Air Force personnel are required to wear the new uniform at their normal place of work ‘on base’, the PCS CU lightweight jacket is to be worn ‘tucked in’ to trousers. In addition, standard blue RAF rank slides/braids are to be worn and personnel are permitted to wear approved pattern RAF stable belts. In due course an RAF badge will be introduced, to be worn in place of the Tactical Recognition Flash.

When personnel are engaged on tasks that entail high levels of physical activity, particularly at higher temperatures, local commanders will retain the authority to allow the jacket to be temporarily un-tucked; it is also permissible, as in the extant regulations for CS95, to remove the jacket completely and complete the tasks in just the t-shirt. Once the task is completed, or an individual leaves the task to undertake less strenuous duties about his Unit, then the Jacket should be replaced and tucked in to the trousers.

Due to the limitations of the current sleeve design, the sleeves of the jacket are normally to be worn down. However, where the activity or temperature dictate, sleeves can be rolled up at the discretion of the individual.

The new combat uniform was designed specifically to support the combat task. Thus, when personnel are engaged in combat operations, operational training or on exercises where combat uniform is being worn as part of a specific requirement of the task, and where high activity levels can be expected to be encountered at short notice, the jacket is to be worn outside of the trousers. In these situations, low contrast rank slides, combat webbing belts and tactical recognition flashes may also be worn at the discretion of the local Commander.

The full details of these changes can be found at AP1358 Dress Regulations for the Royal Air Force, Chapter 2.

This revised policy should be read in the context of the IBN issued in Sep 08, which directed a significant reversion to the wearing of No 2 blue uniform and a greater wearing of uniform in public in support of a stronger public profile for the RAF. While RAF Commanders retain the authority to allow or direct the wearing of combat uniform for its designated purpose of combat operations, operational training and exercises, routine work activities ‘on base’ will rarely qualify against these criteria. Furthermore, combat uniform is not the alternative dress for heavy or dirty work, for which personnel should use standard-issue coveralls. Any standing routine wearing of combat uniform will require the authorization of the respective RAF 2-star/AOC.
For all RAF personnel serving with or in Joint, RN and Army organizations, single-Service dress regulations take precedence unless there are other operational imperatives. In these situations RAF personnel are expected to wear No 2 HD unless a new standing authority to routinely wear combat uniform routinely is given by the most appropriate RAF 2-star officer - this decision cannot be made by officers from other Services. Furthermore, RAF personnel should not wear accoutrements affiliating them to non-RAF organizations, such as stable belts, regimental berets and badges; only RAF variants are permitted.

As obtained from Arrse:

MTP_ How Worn, Ironed and What Boots to Wear (http://www.arrse.co.uk/military-clothing-boots/177760-mtp-how-worn-ironed-what-colour-boots-worn-30.html)

STH

[Lima Juliet]

STH

You have to be quick these day me old!

LJ

[Easy Street]

The toned-down officers' rank braid looks truly dreadful. The thick stripes reminded me of the ones we had to wear when occupying "senior" roles during the end-of-IOT exercise and nothing like a proper RAF barcode. Perhaps if they had used two tones of brown for the stripes it might have looked better. I definitely would have tried to get away with the normal tabs until pulled up for it!

[Lima Juliet]

The DIB in STH's post from Feb 2011 states:

Lightweight Jacket. A shirt that can be worn over a thermal or sweat-wicking layer. It can be worn either tucked in to trousers or loose depending on environmental conditions. In order to allow body armour to be worn over the top (in temperate conditions) buttons have been removed and replaced with Velcro and a zip.

Combat Uniform has been optimised for field use. While the fitting of badges is a secondary consideration this can be done although there will be some changes to positioning. The blanking plate on the Bicep Pockets will allow badges to be removed or changed from one garment to another, reducing tailoring requirements as well as allowing badges to be removed in the field to avoid compromising camouflage performance. Service Dress Committees will issue direction in due course.

The MTP license does not allow MTP to be produced by private companies. Therefore regimental high contrast rank slides, where worn, cannot be produced without cutting up Combat Uniform garments. These rank slides also compromise camouflage performance.

LJ

[diginagain]

Just face it; no matter how you dress, you'll never be mistaken for a combat arm.

[MG]

Thanks guys; my question about officers' rank was genuine as I'd only seen toned-down other ranks, so I was beginning to wonder.

In the 1920s, when we were having fun 'Air Policing', there was a toned-down two-tone brown and sand version of officers' rank. It seems that we've missed a trick by not looking at history agin.

[Easy Street]

Just face it; no matter how you dress, you'll never be mistaken for a combat armThank god for that - that means we can keep making successful overseas interventions from the comfort of our hotels ;)

[Big Pistons Forever]

Just face it; no matter how you dress, you'll never be mistaken for a combat arm.

I am guessing you are of the "Professional Pedestrian" branch of the Armed Forces :E

[diginagain]

I am guessing you are of the "Professional Pedestrian" branch of the Armed Forces Oddly enough, no; as a reward for pushing, pulling, cleaning and refuelling Army helicopters, The Boss gave me one to drive for a few years.

[AGS Man]

LJ
Combat uniform has been optimised for field use...
I should hope so!

[sooms]

As a (recently) retired member of the RAF, who lives close to both a main RAF airfield and an Army barracks, let me assure you that members of the public have no difficulty in mistaking a most members of the RAF in PCS/MTP/CS95 for a soldier because: (I'm ashamed to say)

His/Her boots will be dirty/falling apart.
They will not be wearing headress.
They will probably look like a sack of s**t tied up with string.
They will probably have their hands in their pockets.

[The B Word]

They will not be wearing headress

Now that did make me laugh! The Army are the worst at this. They even have regulations allowing them to remove headress after eating and smoking outside messes/barrack blocks.

The rest is also "bolleaux" about boots, sacks and string - but I can buy the "hands in pockets" :ok:

[rockiesqiud]

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/ROYAL-AIRFORCE-RAF-Forces-Logo-Patch-/00/s/MjYxWDQ4Mg==/$%28KGrHqV,%21iME7Etvwjy%29BPrk+U3gL%21%7E%7E60_12.JPG
Please tell me this is p£$s take!?!:ugh:

[Lima Juliet]

No joke, as STH has already quoted:

"In due course an RAF badge will be introduced, to be worn in place of the Tactical Recognition Flash"

I also saw some God awful purple Olympics patch for people to wear as well!

LJ

[BEagle]

How hard can it be to sort out a standard uniform instruction for your natty combat jim-jams?

This reminds me of the nonsense when the wretched wooly-pully first appeared in about 1973. Was the shirt to be worn with or without tie? Was the stable belt to be worn over or under the pullover?

That stupid, cheap and nasty badge must surely be a pi$$-take?

[glad rag]

I think it's a great way of identifying the service as they never wear their hats today anyway :E

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

In the 1920s, when we were having fun 'Air Policing', there was a toned-down two-tone brown and sand version of officers' rank. It seems that we've missed a trick by not looking at history agin.

Have a care; why risk creating a tradition when you can seize the opportunity of creating a fashion.

That bloody awful "logo" says it all really.

[diginagain]

Roll-on the end of March 2018..................

[MG]

Have a care; why risk creating a tradition when you can seize the opportunity of creating a fashion.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. There seems to be some people in clothing policy who forget that we're not on a fashion parade and that we are, despite what some would have you believe, a military force. This is uniform, not a race to see who can be trendiest.

[orgASMic]

My understanding is that the RAF logo badge is just for the Olympics to identify RAF personnel to Joe Public. :ugh: If 'corporate identity' is so important, they should be wearing blues.

I am also led to believe the that TRF is to be replaced by (wait for it!) a roundel! 10 out of 10 for a waste of effort and money :D The TRF works just fine now that we have been wearing them for the best part of a decade.

(Source - A4 mate at Halton)

I am completely dumb-founded by the decision to wear PCS in a manner which is neither in concert with the other two Services nor with the designers' intent. Utterly pointless, especially when the advice from the Project Team and the intial guidance from the RAF was 'the lightweight jacket is designed to be worn outside the waistband of the trousers'. Again, a pointless waste of staff effort. The only sensible decision is the wearing of blue rank slides in camp.

What is even more pointless is the lack of rigour with which any of this will be applied. Northwood is a fancy dress party at the moment; even the Army cannot agree how to wear the new CU and they have had very clear direction from CGS.

[jamesman]

Only just issued my new spangly 'toned down' rank slide prior to my all inclusive MOD holiday. On my recent IPDT I was asked by one of the boys if I was in the Navy!!!

At least I wasn't mistaken for a brown job.:O

[Pheasant]

That bloody awful "logo" says it all really.

Let's hope the embroiderer puts an "O" in and not an "A" instead in FORCE.

[TheWizard]

All participants of the RAF not on VSF duties at the Olympics ARE TO wear No2 HD except for ceremonial duties where No1 HD with medals is to be worn. So says the admin order (that includes travelling)
Makes sense really, searching vehicles and patrolling in blues is not really practical.

[MFC_Fly]

I think it's a great way of identifying the service as they never wear their hats today anyway :ENo, we are not talking about the Army :ok:

Just remind me how many times did the RAF Kinloss CO have to tell the Pongo's that were starting to arrive over the past few months to put their hats on? Oh yes, LOTS!!


[Edited to add]
Also reminding them of the need to salute his car when it went by whilst it was flying his pennant - oh that caused lots of confusion for the poor lads, who were then often seen saluting his car when it was parked up outside his office :E

[Lima Juliet]

(Source - A4 mate at Halton

OrgASMic

I believe the roundel is for PCS "blues" about to be trialled by Supply and Movements Trg Wg (SMTW - or A4 at RAF Halton). There is no other A4 at RAF Halton as the rest are Serco! The blue PCS is supposed to be similar to that worn by the D-Boats (DARING, DIAMOND, DUNCAN, etc...) who wear the Ship's crest on their right arm - I would expect this is what the roundel will replace?

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

RN blue PCS for anyone who is not aware...

http://c69011.r11.cf3.rackcdn.com/1f99be9fc4b54a20b6f1aaf95ba3ce0b-576x0.jpg

[The B Word]

I note that the RN are "tucking in" then...

...also the 2011 DIB states quite clearly

Lightweight Jacket. A shirt that can be worn over a thermal or sweat-wicking layer. It can be worn either tucked in to trousers or loose depending on environmental conditions

That's that then, no more bollox about "it wasn't designed to be tucked in" - get it tucked in you scruffy herberts. Next you'll be wanting to grow mullets and beards to look like the SF :ugh:

The B Word

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Leon Jabachjabicz. I was about to say; "please let this not to have taken over from AWD when I thought; Google. I wish I hadn't as it gets bloody worse:

http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/215782/slide_215782_792128_free.jpg?1332152127

No wonder that Subbie looks like she's just had her iPod stolen.

Seriously; I hope that those involved have given sufficient consideration to fire retardancy, colour fastness and dimensional stability. In the '90s we had problems contracting for soft furnishing fabrics for Aunty Betty's war canoes. We thought we would ask the, then, Defence Clothing and Textile Agency for help. The closest experience they had was furnishing underground accommodation and proved a complete waste of effort.

[alfred_the_great]

I'm wearing Dark Blue MTP now - it's much, much better than 4s, especially in hot weather. DARING's **** badges need to go - we have a dark blue version of the ship's crest and it makes a coherent statement about who we are. In effect everyone is wearing their cap tally, all of the time.

Tucking it in is uncomfy and pointless, if only because there is a huge wodge of velcro where most people's waist is. Remove that and then you wouldn't get the ridge formed midriff which just looks horrendous. I've also cut all the velcro out of my sleeves to make the sleeves roll up properly.

[Whenurhappy]

Not to be a party pooper GBZ, but the fire standards for underground facilties are very, very close to SOLAS regulations; indeed for those who served at Rudloe Manor (yes, THAT site) and other, ahem, underground facilites would remember that much of the fire safety equipment (and the 'civilian' fire officers) were drawn from the Navy. Indeed, one site I helped to clsoe down in the late 1990s still had 'Admiralty Instruction on the Event of a Fire' posters lining the companionways.

But I agree. Baseball caps should be consigned to the sartorial dustbin of history. The TRF (spookily similar to the Gds Div patch) has sort of grown on me over the years. Roundels look a little silly on uniform - some of you will recall that they were worn on hi-viz tunics issued to the Special Safety Teams in c1995 and they looked rubbish then.

[Just This Once...]

Yep, cannot wait for the roundel.

http://omg.wthax.org/images_65.jpg

Someone is having a laugh at our expense.





Artists impression of the roundel design on MTP - sorry I only had my ribcage, paintball gun and several minutes of bruising to achieve the effect

http://www.continuousrefactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Shot.png

:ugh:

[orgASMic]

LJ, thanks for the input re the roundel. My contact (A4 as in the staff branch ie Air Cmd at Halton) seemed to think it would replace the TRF in toto, but we shall see.
The blue PCS might work out ok for lineys, workshops and such but it will be far more expensive than coveralls. The PCS instruction specifically says that CU should not be worn in place of coveralls for dirty work which can only be due to the expense of replacement (and lead time during rollout).

[Big Bear]

I have just checked AP 1358, following the link from the RAF homepage on DII, and it appears that it is back to Amendment 14, which says that the PCS lightwieght jacket is designed to be worn outside of the waistband of the trousers. Does this mean that their Airships have withdrawn the riduculous tuck it in rule :D or more likely, our information management is so bad that we can't even get the correct edition of APs on our main website :ugh:

Bear

[Willard Whyte]

'twould all be solved by wearing

http://www.aceshighcollectables.com/uploads/images_products/144.jpg

Particularly the shades. And no hat.

[27mm]

IIRC, some time ago it was found that personnel wearing stable belts and involved in an RTA received injuries from the stable belt buckle being forced into the abdominal area by interaction with the seat belt.

[just another jocky]

'twould all be solved by wearing


Some of us do. Been my uniform for 30 years now. :ok:

Haven't ordered the new fancy dress outfit.

Yet. :uhoh:

[SOSL]

I thought this thread was going to be about the Hokey Cokey.

When the man, who wrote the song, died, his family was devastated, but it got worse. Getting ready for the funeral, they tried to put him into the coffin. First they put his left leg in - and that's when all the trouble started.

:O Rgds SOS

[Just This Once...]

Weird, the internet version of the AP has also gone back to AL14:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/0F19E065_5056_A318_A83C614494292B03.pdf

With Joint operations, basing and even squadrons we do look a right state with some tucked in and others not.

[charliegolf]

Personal Clothing System. WTF?

Presumably there must be a 'Shared/Collective/Impersonal Clothing System' too then?

It's like when smart arsed double glazing salesmen started calling it a 'Glazing System', or 'Fenestration System'.

Anybody get a star for that piece of work?

CG

[smujsmith]

Just come across this thread,

When I were a lad the rules were simple. Winter dress and summer dress. I was fortunate enough to serve in the enlightened times when a "collar attached shirt" no tie and rolled up sleeves was accepted as "acceptable". Why is the service taking about ten backward steps in dress regs ? Modern blokes must be very confused about what is or is not de rigueur. My sympathies chaps, my boss on Oxford UAS was more than happy with shorts and T shirts in very hot weather.

Smudge

[WannabeCrewman]

The whole PCS system has been a bit of a debacle - it promised a fair bit initially.



In the opinion of this airman, they'd have been better off doing the following:
Buy the actual Crye Multicam pattern. Dont ask the Crye Precision/Multicam Company to develop your own, slightly different pattern at great cost to the taxpayer. Multicam is proven, and it is readily available for any new UOR bits of kit you need - 95% of tactical nylon manufacturers produce a myriad of gear in MC - everything from softshells to sleeping bags.

If you need it in MC, likelyhood a perfectly good solution already exists. Granted, its not "British", but it saves you have to get every bit of kit/clothing made in your "Speshul MTP" pattern (again at greater expense).
MTP is individualism for individualisms sake and nothing else; it is no better or worse than MC, and just creates one more ballache for anyone trying to acquire gear, be it issued or purchase


Keep the S95 cut jacket in MC/MTP for use around the station - it works tucked in, so it looks all neat and tidy. The current PCS cut belows out around the ribs when tucked in, and to be honest, looks bloody ridiculous.

For Ops, issue PCS cut jackets/UBACS. (The PCS smocks and trousers are, in all credit to the DE&S guys, f**king brilliant. Cant fault them at all, so issue them for both use around camp/on ops).
Whilst I appreciate its nice to have a pattern that defines us as "British", the average journo wouldnt be able to spot the difference between MC and MTP - so the chances of misidentifying British troops as US/Australian etc etc is very low.
Besides, if you are looking that closely at their uniform, the rifles carried should be a dead giveaway. (And if they are Brits using US rifles, likelyhood is you shouldnt be taking pictures of them anyway :ok:)

[Biggus]

As someone who doesn't have any PCS, and never will, I have read this thread with a mixture of amusement and incredulity. I'm retiring soon, at which point I'll hand back my loft insulation, sorry kit, including CS95 and various sandy coloured items I was issued for GW2.

I wonder what will become of it? Army surplus, part of a job lot sold to some third world country?

[Sandy Parts]

From my experience (last year) - it is thrown in a large black dustbin to be offloaded for 'cloth recycling' according the storeman. You'd have thought someone would have saved it all up to be exported to libya/syria for 'non-lethal assistance' to get Hague and co a few brownie points!