I got into trouble some weeks ago for suggesting that the death penalty was appropriate for someone carelessly starting a forest fire. Well, the picture below (taken yesterday near where the OFSO's live) says it all. And it is a capital crime: four dead so far...

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/ROBIN_100/Biure.jpg

The BBC have been covering this event, it looks horrific.

BBC News - In pictures: Spain's wildfires (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18950061)

It's making grim reading from this side of the border.

Incendies. L'autoroute A9 rouverte, le Fort de Bellegarde endommagé - International : LaDépêche.fr (http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2012/07/23/1405504-espagne-trois-francais-tues-dans-l-incendie.html)

Good luck OFSO, hope you and yours remain safe.

300 French firemen helping out, plus the water bombers.

Incendies en Espagne : les pompiers français mobilisés - BFMTV (http://www.bfmtv.com/incendies-en-espagne-les-pompiers-francais-actu30999.html)

I suppose eventually we might see wide fire breaks every couple of miles or so in the 'at risk' forests, at least then the fire fighters could just concentrate on stopping it jumping the gaps. I know it's not quite that easy but it would help.

sitigeltfel wrote: 300 French firemen helping out, plus the water bombers.

(WARNING: Some aviation content follows!)

The French "Sécurité Civile"s Bombardier CL-415s are already painted in Spanish colours (see photos for comparison below):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9a/Flag_of_Spain.svg/500px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Blusvliegtuig.jpg

Wonder how the Spaniards will repay France? In pesetas or in kind?

Whatever, that's what I call solidarity, addressed to all those anti-€uro currency nazis out there...?! :ok:

Hope you and yours are OK Ofso, a campo fire like this is our big dread, we are 63 days without any rain at all and the ground is tinder dry.

The Euro ? Nothing to do with it, NOTHING, totally irelevant.

The fire brigades of Spain and France have always worked together on the border, because fires there affect both countries......

Still burning by the way, still out of control. Winds now veering from north to east, south later, and dropping in speed. The smoke has reached Barcelona and the Baleric Islands.

Here in southern Texas it's been so dry my wonderful new fireman neighbor Okti, is never home. It was to be his dream home, but the second he relaxes his pager calls him back to work. If he's not working, he's volunteering, and when there's time to breath, he's instructing.

Mind you, much of the American problem is due to NOT using AutoClaved concrete blocks. (Celcon in the UK) I just don't know why it hasn't taken off here. They tell me even joists and rafters are made of the stuff now. Why build with termite food and firewood?

due to NOT using AutoClaved concrete blocks.

So any concrete or dense block really ?

They tell me even joists


You get block and beam floors where this type of block is used as the infill but the beam ( joist ) will be pre-stressed concrete-


and B]rafters[/B] are made of the stuff now.


NOoooooooo. Show me one please .

. Why build with termite food and firewood?

It is/may be light, cheap, naturally available and nice enough to be a finished surface.

Happily where I live none of your (big) negatives apply.

OFSO wrote: The Euro ? Nothing to do with it, NOTHING, totally irelevant.

The latest news I've read: 4 dead in Spain, all French... (http://actu.orange.fr/monde/espagne-le-feu-reste-hors-de-controle-et-a-fait-quatre-morts-tous-francais-afp_722990.html)

Obviously all irrelevant, according to OFSO. Who denigrates the € and Eurozone every opportunity he gets. Except, that is, when he's worried about his own property and well-being. Or replacing the usual and reputable news sources and wants to play the role of "grand-reporter" himself: Still burning by the way, still out of control. Winds now veering from north to east, south later, and dropping in speed. The smoke has reached Barcelona and the Baleric Islands. :}

Tell me (explain to us all) OFSO, "just who's footing the bill" for the 6 x French CL-415s and other French personnel currently being used in Spain? The "UK government" perchance? Your otherwise anonymous EU supporter (even if against the € currency)?

Surely, you owe all the (hitherto very patient supporters of UK, Europe, the EU, the € currency and Eurozone generally), some sort of explanation...?! :ugh:

Here we go again, airship is off on one because he knows he'll get eaten alive in the EU thread.

Whatever, that's what I call solidarity, addressed to all those anti-€uro currency nazis out there...?!

Yes, like the UK and Norway cooperating in North Sea Oil Rig rescues, or UK rescue squads heading to all parts of the EU when you have earthquakes, wildfires or other natural disasters. Guess that means that the Euro is as relevant as anything you post....

What is the definition of an Airship ?

A nasty, crazed little harbour-rat.

What is the definition of an Airship ?


Hard to say, they used to use hydrogen but we don't know what they're full of nowadays so it's difficult to give a true and accurate definition of what they are....

Hope all is well OFSO, on a lighter note, get the government to declare a hosepipe ban. You will get rain for thirty days and nights.

Judging from that last para. in #6 I think I know what that one's full of.

Mr Skier

The beams look like the same stuff, but may well have a very different structure/core. They weren't invented last time I was building.

I am passionately against wooden houses, but the fact is many people love the older ones and with care, they last for centuries.


The reason fire services have to work so hard. The 5k squ ft 'mini-mansion' opposite:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/walnaze/Building%20and%20buildings/Image00008.jpg

Spent one holiday in Portugal running away from the fires, trying to find somewhere to stay where they wouldn't catch up with us (we did eventually get back to the cottage where we started, to pick up our abandoned luggage, and the fire hadn't reached the house - it had only got half way across the lawn; we were right to run away at dawn that day, having been woken up by the sound of the fire).

Nobody there thought that the fires had been started "carelessly", it was assumed they were deliberate.

I am passionately pro- wooden houses. I'm building one of my own right now (it's not a mansion). The materials are plentiful, cheap and green here. Any idiot can build one, and you can do it single-handed, which you can't with concrete.

Wooden houses do not start forest fires, not in Canada much anyways. Idiots do.



.

It's just the vulnerability of say, 50 or 100 year old wood. People take the care they did in candlelit days, but if there's a mistake things happen so fast.

Sorry to go off-topic with this, but earlier, I'd just come in from a passionate discussion with my neighbor about buildings and fire hazards.



I spent 15 of the most stressful days of my life last month when the kids decided they would continue with their trip to Colorado. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Many, many sympathies OFSO and to all those affected.

Wood, schmud, it doesn't really matter once things get a real hold. This is from our area in Western Australia over the New Year period 2009/10. We spent 4 days fighting this fire and a further 6 weeks tackling flare ups etc. The community is still trying to get itself together.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/P1230013.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/P1220017.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/P1220031.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/P1220043.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/P1220039.jpg

Looserivets:

I spent 15 of the most stressful days of my life last month when the kids decided they would continue with their trip to Colorado.

Colorado is a BIG place.....

As most know, (over on rotorheads anyways), I fly a fire helicopter for a living. I was on the Colorado fires a few weeks back. Typically, people die when they CHOOSE to ignore the evacuation notices. I will admit that sometimes they are issued a little pre-maturely, but better than the alternative.

As for homes, sometimes there is nothing we can do to save them, but homeowners can help out by having "defensible space". I know people like to have trees right up against their homes.....I get it....but fire needs 3 things to remain "alive".... oxygen, heat and fuel... if you take away the fuel layer around your house...... by cutting down trees within 100 ft, this would help.....

FYI...THIS was taken on the High Park fire in Colorado during the blowout that occurred on the afternoon of June 22nd and we lost another 20 or so homes.... (I am now on fires in Nevada).

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/2012/2012-06-22_19-22-49_873.jpg

Still burning this morning, 14,000 hectares gone, 1500 firemen there, aircraft & choppers. Fires are near large reservoir so plenty of water for pick-ups. Outlying townspeople spending night in sports halls (luckily almost every village here has one). Fire is still "out of control" in many areas. However weather has turned cool and wind practicaly gone. Minister of Interior "oprtimistic" this morning.

They found the cigerette butt which started it on the edge of the huge truck park at La Jonquera. I guess they'll be doing forensic tests but the guy could be anywhere now - half the trucks we see are from the Ukraine, Lithuania, Chechnia, Poland, Estonia, Portugal, Germany etc....

OFSO..

My thoughts are with you.... I often do not see the personal side of what people are dealing with... it gets routine to those fighting the fire....

I am not sure how it is in your part of the world...but certainly here in the US the press can be a "little" sensational.... (sarcasm added).... "Out of control" kinda really means that they do not have control line around the fire, and it could break out.....

Again, my best wishes to you and your family and friends... from one helitack pilot many miles away, I suspect the guys guys working your fire are doing ALL they can with the resources, (which are normally not enough), they have.

They wanted to make their way south via the Springs. I had a lot to say (from Texas) about the 32,000 people heading the other way. Like, no fuel, no water, all lanes being used for one direction, no place to turn, right through to no oxygen to feed the engine.

They called later to say they were on a 'Farm' road heading east. There was no point in going on about the merits of an FM route. At least they were heading in the right direction for the moment.

They just felt safe because of television reports and getting a feel of the fire's track. Basically they were saying, We're here, your there. Stop worrying. Yeah, right. I'll stop worrying about the kids when they bury me.

Yeah, right. I'll stop worrying about the kids when they bury me.

I hear ya...I do the same...

They found the cigerette butt which started it
how's that possible? WOuldn't anything that starts a fire be burnt too?
Fingers crossed for those 'in there'!

Rivets

I see nothing but wooden joist and rafters in your picture, although many are the modern I-section manufactured type rather than sawn timber.

I know you are very knowledgeable about electronics, but building materials ?

building materials ?

We are lucky. Houses here are stone, concrete or brick, all windows have shutters, modern ones rolladen of aluminum, doors like ours with steel plate inside. Roofs are tile carried on concrete raft on prestressed concrete beams. House burns when window or door fails, not that usual.

However (and this will be no news to anyone who's lived thru a fire) you can lose the entire contents of the house to smoke and soot, plus redecorating, even if the fire doesn't come closer than a few hundred yards. We know of a person who went out for the day leaving windows open...and then the fire swept by.....

Thanks for good wishes. So far, so good. But all my beautiful walking country destroyed. It will grow back, but different species of trees and plants.

They found the cigerette butt which started it on the edge of the huge truck park at La Jonquera.

I too would question that. If they can find the person responsible, I agree that the death penalty would be appropriate, if a little too quick and kind if it was statred deliberately.

airship your comments are pure bile and vitriol and demean you and cheapen the value of your other 'contributions' to this and the EU thread. This has nothing to do with the EU and the Euro but rather with humanity. There are plenty of examples of nations helping each other in times of tragedy and it has nothing to do with governments.

My sympathy to all those affected.

On a more positive note, forest fires are regenerative and the flora is refreshed, albeit after a period of years, growing back stronger and healthier than before, this as been seen in the many fires on Table Mountain and the surrounding area.

Roofs are tile carried on concrete raft on prestressed concrete beams.

Now you're saying it OFSO ! Is it really correct ? Even with heavy(ish) tiles, I cannot imagine a Spanish roof/any roof needing the strength of pre-stressed concrete . Usually when wood is not sufficient, steel is the next step, not concrete.

That apart a concrete raft is a method of supporting a complete house i.e. it weighs a good few tonnes and I cannot imagine any circumstances how/why that would be used as a roof support.

Ofso is correct.
Wood is terribly expensive in Spain. They don't like steel for general construction.
Concrete is the preferred material.

There is nothing a Spaniard cannot do with concrete.

The standard construction method here is

- reach roof height with walls
- place prestressed beams from side to side
- fit curved (arched) tiles between beams
- place steel mat on the resulting surface
- pour a slab of concrete on this
- built small sloping walls to roof shape
- repeat the concrete slab exercise, but this time sloping
- place tiles on concrete slab

In order to build one - or more - extra floors on an existing house it is only necessary to remove the tiles and roof slab and build on what remains.

If the tiles are ripped off in wind, the roof remains watertight.

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu287/ROBIN_100/CatalanHouseConstruction.jpg



I must apologise to slandered truck drivers. The ignition point of our fire was a small car park a few yards away from the no-longer-staffed border control kiosks. There is also a coach stop there.

The Judiciary in Figueras has formally opened proceedings.

Well, wood must be very expensive if they are putting so much unnecessary weight - and effort into getting it there - into the roof structure. Also by modern criteria the lack of breathability would be a major problem/unacceptable.

Is it normal to have any insulation or decorative covering on the inside of the roof ?

Found this pic taken yesterday on the main street of Le Perthus, a town right on the border between France and Spain:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/Twyler/Fire_Le_Perthus.jpg

Stand to be corrected but I think that is looking towards the direction of Spain.

Is it normal to have any insulation or decorative covering on the inside of the roof ?

From the underside of those beams/curved tiles hangs a suspended ceiling. In our case it's plasterboard tiles 2" thick. The space between and the space above the lower slab are vented to the outside by grills set into the side walls. The result of this method of construction is great heat loss through the ceilings. Think winter -10ºc, winds over force eight.

We are planning on having multi-insulation put in on the underside of the tiles this autumn, and then a continuous plasterboard ceiling added. By a locally resident British builder who knows about insulation.

BYW it is not just the roof that's built like this. The cellar has the same construction and walls also are massive.

Yes Duckbutt, you are right, looking downhill into Spain. Le Perthus is a pretty nasty little frontier town where French go in search of a bargain.

Water bombers are collecting sea water from in front of my house Right This Minute but fire is "in phase of control" and smoke seems to be less.

Tableview wrote: airship your comments are pure bile and vitriol and demean you and cheapen the value of your other 'contributions' to this and the EU thread. This has nothing to do with the EU and the Euro but rather with humanity. There are plenty of examples of nations helping each other in times of tragedy and it has nothing to do with governments.


If you care to clarify the obvious clash above when describing "nations having nothing to do with governments" above, I'll be happy to reciprocate. :confused:

Meanwhile, OFSO is on yet another binge, playing the "grand reporter" as it were. AFP and Reuters can go away on their summer holidays... :ok:

sisemen wrote: Many, many sympathies OFSO and to all those affected. Has OFSO been directly affected?

This thread reminds me of the one concerning the last Japanese earthquake / tsunami / nuclear disaster. Where one "Yamagata Ken" IIRC basically became the official PPRune / JetBlast "mouth-piece" of everything and anything to do with that disaster. Anyone who disagreed with him was inevitably banned and/or severely lambasted by other JBers.

As Alpine Skier most recently described me: A nasty, crazed little harbour-rat. In my humble experience, rats found in or around harbours are neither nasty, nor crazed. Unfortunetly for us rats, far too many human-beings find solace in regarding creatures like us as way-beneath any consideration except revulsion. But you know what disgusts me Alpine Skier, the fact that you probably have a crap and simply wipe yer ass with a few sheets of toilet paper. Me, I do that and then use the bidet to to wash my own ass properly clean. That way, my fingers are "crap-free" when hitting the keyboard. Of course, most rats just use their tongues, and have no use for keyboards...?! I know which I'd prefer to shake hands with.

Cc. racedo, hellsbrink etc. FWIW.

This is the last time I'm contributing here. Yeah, I know, good riddance etc. Same back to you all...

We are planning on having multi-insulation put in on the underside of the tiles this autumn, and then a continuous plasterboard ceiling added. By a locally resident British builder who knows about insulation.

If by that you mean multi-foil insulation, my opinion would be to use normal insulation.

None of the foil manufacturers claims have ever been replicated by any national certification organisation ( like National Physical Laboratory in UK ) using the standard Hot-Box test and as far as I know, the only product that quotes a U-value ( most just say as good as 200 mm of standard insulation ) is Tri-Iso and their testing was done by an organisation called Trada in the UK, but is still regarded with suspicion by many people.

The CTSB ( like NPL or BRE ) in France ( these foils originated here ) tested several a few years ago and reported that they only delivered about 40% of what they claimed and a lot of that was due to the mandatory 25 mm air-gaps either side of the foil. In order to make even that 40% it was essential that any gaps in sealing the foil be limited to something like 0.5 mm which was impossible in an actual fitting situation.

airship I am not going to get into a slanging match with you because I've seen some of your other postings and although I often disagree with you, you are obviously a well-meaning and decent person, but you have seriously overstepped the bounds of decency with some of your earlier comments. I'm sorry to see that you have reverted to personal abuse against others who've disagreed with you.

There are plenty of examples of nations helping each other in times of tragedy and it has nothing to do with governments. You are right, this was clumsily worded. I wrote it this morning before I was fully awake after a late night and whilst trying to deal with other things.

What I meant was that humanitarian gestures of kindness and support do not emanate from governments, but from the goodness of peoples' hearts.

Airship - I am a firey. I have been for the past 20 years. I've been in situations where my life has been on the line and, thankfully, I've always walked away from it. I've given up my time for the community that I live in in order to protect the lazy, the uninterested, the incapable, and the unknowing from the danger that surrounds them every year.

I have never had any argument with you before and I wonder just what in the hell gives you the right to quote me in support of whatever beef you have?

sisemen wrote:
Quote:

Many, many sympathies OFSO and to all those affected.
Has OFSO been directly affected?


I've seen fire. I've seen big fires. I've seen loss of life. I've seen people lose everything.

Please take your obnoxious reference to my sympathies to those under threat of bush fire from your post.

OFSO

How are the concrete lintels attached to the walls? In a British house the roof timbers are nailed to the wall plates and hold the walls to stop them bowing outward. Are those lintels bolted down or just free standing? I can see the potential of a lot of problems with walls moving due to subsidence under the weight of the roof, and if they're not tied in the walls could bow badly away from the roof

Beams are cemented into the walls, which are double of course with airspace between, so weight is being carried on "two" walls. When we have had work done it's amazing the effort needed to break through walls.

For example having a window put in, took two days to cut around opening, then centre was pushed out by two men to fall 50' down onto the mountainside below - where the mortar held, the piece didn't break up, the bricks didn't separate and to the annoyance of our builders needed cutting into pieces and carrying back up again.

I might add that this house was built by a firm owned by a Dutchman, and it shows in the quality of work, except for the unsulation which is appropriate for the age..

Back in the 1970s I occupied a house (built on the chalet-bungalow style).

The conventional cavity walls had been filled with insulating foam, but the interior was dry-lined and the eaves were 'open'.

When the wind blew the cold air circulated between the plasterboard and the (insulated) cavity walls resulting in forced-draught cooling of whatever heat we attempted to generate within.

God, how I hated that house!

Gordy, sisemen,

sincerely you both and your compatriots have my utter respect.

i have a question though, in the areas you do your work, are they also areas that have been subject to routine controlled burning ?

In my area we try to do as much controlled burning as possible. In the area of the 2009/10 fire there hadn't been much because a large area was part of a nature reserve. Having said that, that particular fire started in agricultural land (power pole fell over and ignited stubble) and controlled burning wouldn't have made a great deal of difference to the loss of houses. Clearing around the houses would have made a difference.

Big fires here in Valencia, too. The latest are suspected to have been started by a driver throwing his fag-end out of the window. For those of you that do not know Spain, the street, or road, is the rubbish bin. Everybody (Spanish, that is) simply throws their rubbish into the street. (they also gob and pee in it but that doesn't cause forest fires). This includes lighted fag-ends. While there is no law in Spain against throwing rubbish into the street, forest fires will continue.

While there is no law in Spain against throwing rubbish into the street, forest fires will continue.

And even if they do bring in such a law, forest fires will continue as there is no way possible to monitor every single kilometre of every road where there may be a "danger" so someone will still throw a cigarette out of a car window.

While there is no law in Spain against throwing rubbish into the street

Another ludicruous piece of mis-information. Sunnyjohn, come here and try it. Within minutes someone will call the Municipales, they'll be up in the next hour, take photos, knock on the door, file a complaint and you'll be prosecuted by the Ajuntament.

On two occasions I've made a denuncio (needless to say, on one occasion it was my foul-mouthed English neighbour, saw him do it, on another English builders, couldn't prove it). Oh and in both cases the rubbish was removed the same day, once by the perpetrator, once by the Ajuntament.

BTW, both the fires last Sunday (Le Perthuis and Port Bou) were started on the French side of the border and burned south into Spain. So don't lets assume they were started by Spanish, eh ?

I think he's talking about different fires in another part of the country, OFSO.

"Here in Valencia" was a bit of a giveaway.

My bit of Spain is mostly spotless, a little fly tipping but they closed the tip ! and a little dog muck but nowhere near as bad as, say, Nerja. The 'land mine' capital of the CDS.
I have yet to see anything ejected from a car window.