Spin upset recovery training

[lukep95]

Just a few questions on Spin training. I'm coming to the end of Phase 1 of my PPL in the US and told I need or should I say my School want me to do Spin Recovery Training in a Decathlon Aircraft. I train with Sunrise Aviation @ John Wayne Airport, California.

It's in 2 weeks and I'm extremely nervous. It's actually not to much of the fact on spinning it's more the G-forces. I'm slowly but gracefully getting use to them but my FI said one of the recoveries is a 4G. I don't have a clue how I'd deal with that when I'm only just used to 2G's!

Putting aside all the fear and nerves I do indeed want to do it as I believe it's good to know when I'm getting into one and how to recover. It's not required for the FAA PPL I believe so if I at least gave it a shot and couldn't hack anymore after say 2/3 would that be okay?

I've booked an hours ground prior just to go over everything as I done the ground for it months ago when the Aircraft went Tech so I'd like a refresh.

My CFI's been pretty good to me, when we first done Unusual Attitudes I wasn't used to the forces one bit so I felt extremely sick and he just said it's fine and went back to the field to call it a day. I did do UA's again the other day and aced them, the high nose ones got me but just proceeded through them fine.

If anyone can pass over any tips that'd be appreciated! I'm taking my GoPro up, at least if I am fine with it my FI said he'd show me a few rolls etc ha.

Cheers!

[Pilot DAR]

A spin in a Decathlon will be a low G maneuver, it's the dive recovery following the spin recovery which can build up some G. I would think that 4 G is rather high, I would wonder why more than 2.5 G is required in the recovery, but, I'm not your instructor.

The recovery of a spin is to break the stall, and stop the rotation. That leaves you pointing fairly nose down, depending upon the C of G of the aircraft [it's usually the spin recovery characteristics of an aircraft which dictate the C of G limits, which is why you should not exceed them!]. As with an extreme stall recovery, if you recover the dive too early, you secondary stall, and prolong the recovery. If you recover too late you build up speed, and prolong the recovery (accompanied with high speed and G).

During certification test flying I did on a Cessna Grand Caravan, modified with an external load, I did numerous spins. At gross weight and forward C of G, the recovery dive as at Vne, and 2.8G, with a rate of descent of 9200 FPM for a few seconds. This is why Caravans are not spin approved. They spin very nicely, but the recovery requires precision to not exceed a limitation. Cessna 206 less nice to spin.

I've posted this clip before, but here you are... (they're both the same clip, I don't know why PPRuNe puts it on twice...)

C208 spin clip.m4v - YouTube

Of all the flying I did for this Caravan program, the spins were not the most "scary", it was the many land backs from an engine failure at 50 feet, at reduced speeds, which stood up the hair on my neck!

Have caution, but no fear. Your taking unusual attitude and spin training is very wise, and I commend you. Even if you rarely spin aircraft later in your career, you'll be a better pilot for it! By knowing what the approach is like, you will avoid better in all types!

[BackPacker]

First of all, as you rightfully concluded, spin training is NOT part of the PPL syllabus. There is NO legal basis for the school to *require* you to do spin training. Spin training has been removed from the PPL syllabus many years ago, supposedly because statistics showed that more people died in spin training than in actual stall/spin accidents.

The lessons that *are* required in the syllabus, and are far more important, are stall/spin awareness and stall recovery. If you are able to recognize the flight regimes which bring you close to the stall, are able to recognize the first symptoms of an impending stall and are able to promptly recover from an incipient stall, you have just thrown up three very effective hurdles against the spin.

Having said that, any training beyond the PPL syllabus is a good thing. Whether you do that before or after the PPL exam doesn't really matter. So if your school encourages some sort of "unusual attitudes" lesson somewhere during or after your PPL course, you would be stupid not to take it. As long as you understand that this is outside the syllabus, and that you are NOT supposed to practice this when flying solo, and that you will NOT be required to demonstrate this on the exam. It's an extra and should only be done with a competent instructor on board.

On to the spin itself. As Pilot DAR said, there are no significant G forces during the spin itself. It might be disorientating but that's not the same thing as high-G. The G's will only build up during the recovery. Depending on the aircraft and how ham-fisted your recovery is, you will briefly experience something between 2.5 and 4G. But in contrast to, for instance, a steep turn, you will find that the G's will last only for a very short period. A reasonably well-executed spin recovery will not end in a full-vertical dive but you will be about 45-60 degrees nose down, and even when recovering from a vertical dive the peak G (4G or thereabouts) will only last half a second or so.

With high-G maneuvers the easiest method not to get dizzy is to keep your head straight on your body. Look straight ahead, don't turn your head in any direction, as your neck muscles will not know what just happened to them. Only once you are more experienced will you be able to turn your head under high-G conditions without getting the feeling it will fall off. And it's only beyond approximately four G that you will need straining techniques and grunting to prevent you from losing consciousness. Below approximately four G your natural blood pressure, plus a little anxiety, will keep your brain nicely oxygenated.

And whatever you do, once you begin to feel dizzy/nauseated/sick, the lesson is over. Period. There is no benefit in continuing the lesson to the vomiting stage. Your instructor should be briefing you on this, and should be keeping an eye on you for any signs that you've had enough. (And don't consider stopping early a sign of weakness. When I started aerobatics my first few lessons were all under 15 minutes of playtime. It takes time to get used to this sort of stuff.)

[Armchairflyer]

If you fear getting airsick, you might want to consider taking ginger capsules before going for a spin. At the beginning of my PPL training, when my stomach was not accustomed to the feeling of having left solid ground, they helped me quite a lot.

As for the spinning itself, just relax. I was pretty awed by the idea of being in a spinning airplane myself until I did some spin and UA training in a Citabria (which is by and large a less aerobatic Decathlon with flaps). Given enough altitude and C of G within limits, there is nothing nerve-wracking about it, and the g forces in the pullout are no big deal either (as stated by DAR and BackPacker, a) they need not even attain 4g and b) they only last for a moment).

Whatever your personal experience, an important point IMHO is that intentional spin training at altitude has nothing to do with an inadvertent stall/spin at low altitude (which is why I am somewhat skeptical concerning the safety gain from spin training and rather side with those who believe that eliminating spin training from the PPL syllabus in favor of stall awareness is justified with regard to stall/spin accident prevention).

[The500man]

There's no need to worry. If you've done the 60 degree bank level turns, the sustained 2g you feel in them combined with the world spinning by out the window is worse than a brief wings lelvel-ish 4g pull, which will more than likely be over in a couple of seconds. Physically you won't have any issues with it.

The spinning itself may make you slightly nauseous if you are doing consecutive spins. I don't know how your instructor will go about teaching you but I would suggest if you are given the option, to fly the entries yourself, rather than spectating while your instructor demonstrates. If you do start to feel nauseous make sure you say so, so you don't suffer in silence. It will only get worse if you try and continue.

Lastly remember to enjoy yourself, it's good fun. :ok:

[Pilot DAR]

hopefully the OP will forgive some thread drift. I accept that a one turn spin is not a "developed" spin. It is, however, the design requirement applicable to normal category aircraft. My testing of modified aircraft is simply to confirm that the design requirement of one turn in, then one more turn and you're out continues to be shown. I do not test beond that, and I do not deliberately mishandle the entry or recovery. It's basic testing. I test odd things hung off aircraft, and spinning is nearly always required, because of the possible change in handling resulting from the modification.

The Caravan was very interesting, in that the recovery characteristics were totally different between forward C of G limit, and very far aft C of G. Both worked, but I sure know now how Cessna established the C of G limits and elevator control deflections for the Caravan, as I sure would not want to spin with a further aft C of G! Full controls forward, and held so well into the recovery. It did as advertized though! (I have never had a Cessna disappoint me!)

Another project had me spinning a Lake Amphibian with a more powerful engine, with 75% power applied. Great plan, but as I would have guessed, it would not spin against the torque of the prop, but with the torque, snap rolled. Once of that was enough for me!

Obviously, nearly all aircraft should not be spun, but it is very reassuring to know that they will, and are recoverable - with enough altitude!

[Big Pistons Forever]

an important point IMHO is that intentional spin training at altitude has nothing to do with an inadvertent stall/spin at low altitude (which is why I am somewhat skeptical concerning the safety gain from spin training and rather side with those who believe that eliminating spin training from the PPL syllabus in favor of stall awareness is justified with regard to stall/spin accident prevention).

I absolutely agree. At the PPL level the emphasis should be on stall avoidance. If the airplane isn't stalled it can't spin. There is obviously a possibility of an inadvertent stall leading to a potential spin but again the emphasis should be on recovering before the spin is entered. In this case controlling the yaw is key. If the aircraft is yawing as it stalls then a potential spin situation is developing. However prompt application of full opposite rudder at any point in the incipient spin stage,( ie the first half turn or so) will stop the entry into a spin instantly and forward stick and some power will allow a recovery with little altitude loss.

Allowing any further rotation before initiating the recovery now makes it a deliberate aerobatic manoever which IMO has no place in ab initio training. However I highly encourage new PPL's to take an introductory aerobatic course. This will cover all the potential unusual attitudes as well as spinning. It is a great confidence builder to discover the aircraft is perfectly controllable no matter what its attitude.

Finally I think instructors who are not aerobatics trained should not be conducting fully developed spins ( ie more then 2 turns for most aircraft) under any circumstances. They simply will not have the experience or skills to recognize and deal with a spin that is going bad.

[foxmoth]

Finally I think instructors who are not aerobatics trained should not be conducting fully developed spins ( ie more then 2 turns for most aircraft) under any circumstances. They simply will not have the experience or skills to recognize and deal with a spin that is going bad.

To be honest, I think many aerobatic instructors might have a problem with this! Most will not have seen anything but a normal spin, it is not until you go on to advanced spinning, i.e. inverted and flat, that you really get to non normal ones, and most basic aeros instructors, certainly in the UK, do not cover these, apart from possibly a discussion about alternative recovery techniques..:bored:

[lenhamlad]

However I highly encourage new PPL's to take an introductory aerobatic course. This will cover all the potential unusual attitudes as well as spinning. It is a great confidence builder to discover the aircraft is perfectly controllable no matter what its attitude.

As a newly qualified PPL I am more worried about stalling than spinning, so much so that I had a crap landing last night because I was too fast and high on approach. Instead of going around I had a fast but not too hard landing in the Robin, followed by a couple of porpoise type leaps. Of course I then forgot to add a dribble of power and keep the stick right back to help nail it to the ground. Another hour of circuits with my instructor is now my intention, but I will take an aerobatic lesson, even if the thought itself makes me queasy.

[BabyBear]

With all the talk of spinning I, like many, expected mayhem and overloading of the senses. How surprised I was when on my first spin there was no more than 1G. I couldn't believe it was so benign. On trying to enter my first spins I was surprised at how difficult it was, I kept ending up in spiral dives.

Great Fun!

BB

[foxmoth]

What were you flying BB? I suspect something like a Cessna or Pa28, personally I do not like teaching spinning in these because they deteriorate so easily from a spin to a spiral dive resulting in a rushed exercise, IMHO this is one of the main reasons many people get so up tight about spinning, done in an aircraft that spins well the instructor can do it in a much more relaxed manner, leading generally to a student who is much happier with the exercise. Lenhamlad, I would recommend you speak to your instructor about doing some more on stalling - if you realise how easy recognising and recovering from the incipient stall is hopefully you will be more confident, so might be worth doing an hour concentrating on this area.

[Tarq57]

I've done a little spinning, in PA38's mainly (up to six turns), and Cessna singles. In none of the recoveries did the G loading get anywhere near 4G. Maybe 3, at most, and more usually around 2.

This is without dicking around with the pull-out from the dive, either. Pretty much max aft elevator (short of the secondary stall - a simplification, but it will do) as soon as the spin is broken/everything centred. This doesn't result in much G in the early stages of the pull out. The speed isn't high enough to be able to pull more than about 1.5 or so. It increases gradually as the speed rises. By the time it gets past two or so, the nose should be pretty much rising through the horizon, and it's time to ease the back pressure.

The first few times entering the spin are fairly disorientating. Don't worry about it. Do try the ginger, suggested in a post above, and do tell the instructor if starting to feel queasy. Tell him/her earlier rather than later.

As a newly qualified PPL I am more worried about stalling than spinning, so much so that I had a crap landing last night because I was too fast and high on approach. Instead of going around I had a fast but not too hard landing in the Robin, followed by a couple of porpoise type leaps. Of course I then forgot to add a dribble of power and keep the stick right back to help nail it to the ground. Another hour of circuits with my instructor is now my intention, but I will take an aerobatic lesson, even if the thought itself makes me queasy. An acquaintance was paranoid about stalling. An instructor cured her of this by having her fly at minimum speed with the stall warning on, almost at the buffet, over a short (20 min) cross country, including turning, climbing and descending, all the way to touch down. Cured her, and made her much more aware about attitude, speed, and the way the aircraft feels when slow.

[BabyBear]

Foxmoth, you make a very good point, I have never actually spun in a SEP*, only gliders and I found it a non event, although they do have different characteristics. Whether that was down to the differences in SEP's v gliders?

BB

* Due to change in PPL syllabus.

[foxmoth]

Pretty much max aft elevator (short of the secondary stall - a simplification, but it will do)
Sorry, but in my book this will NOT "do", fine, you say "short of the secondary stall", but most students trying what you suggest probably would end up in a secondary stall!:rolleyes:
Correct technique after stopping the spin and centralising is to roll wings level and ease out of the dive, as long as this is done in reasonable time there is no need for anywhere near max aft elevator and "G" should stay well below 4, - normally around 2.5-3. Of course with the right aircraft and student the pull out can be delayed to allow something aerobatic of the end of it then you might get 4G or more, but this is not of course the standard recovery!:}

[Tarq57]

It will do at this level of explanation, which is simply to reassure the student concerning the sensations to be experienced.

The instructor should, of course, be providing the actual explanations, combined with the appropriate theory concerning dive recovery, accelerated stalling, L/D ratio (drag curve) in unusual attitudes etc.

By "max aft elevator", I meant max available aft elevator, which was slightly careless on my part, I agree.

[foxmoth]

Tarq, I suspect you are not an instructor or you would realise how many students would misinterpret what you are saying, even with my understanding and experience I would not be trying to recover like this anyway, this would put you on the light buffet and is totally unnessesary (unless you are about to hit the ground!), far better to use less elevator, and let the aircraft accelerate a little more, you will be less likely to get into problems and still pull little "g", in fact I would say probably a more comfortable recovery.

[BackPacker]

"G" should stay well below 4, - normally around 2.5-3.

Agree. Just for comparison, I spin the R2160 regularly for competition aerobatics. In competition aerobatics, the judges want to see the spin stopped exactly on heading, and with a clearly marked vertical downline.

So we break the spin rather briskly. Not with neutral elevator but well forward of neutral. And we keep on pushing until truly vertical, which may even lead to negative Gs for an instant. We then mark between one half and a full second second on that vertical downline before we pull out. (How long we mark the downline and at what speed we exit depends on the required entry speed for the next maneuver.)

And even with such an extreme spin exit, we rarely exceed 4G.

So if you stop the rotation with the rudder, put the elevators in neutral so the spin is broken, then pull out of the dive straight away (without stalling it again, obviously) you will be very hard pressed to exceed 2.5G. In fact, you might not even be able to reach 2.5G, because 2.5G requires you to be at about 1.6Vs. But you just came out of a stall so you will not be flying much faster than Vs.

[Tarq57]

You are correct; I'm not an instructor, so perhaps you're right.
However, in my spin experience, I've found that - within reason - commencing the dive recovery ASAP short of the buffet will minimize altitude loss, and help prevent airspeed building excessively.

As I said, at this level (war stories on t'internet) the instructor should be the one to take the cues and training from. After all, the OP did ask for tips and reassurance, rather than detailed explanations.

[foxmoth]

So if you stop the rotation with the rudder, put the elevators in neutral so the spin is broken, then pull out of the dive straight away (without stalling it again, obviously) you will be very hard pressed to exceed 2.5G. In fact, you might not even be able to reach 2.5G, because 2.5G requires you to be at about 1.6Vs. But you just came out of a stall so you will not be flying much faster than Vs.
Whilst this is true, and no problem for someone experienced in spinning, we are talking first timers here, most students spinning for the first time will (and should be) take more time on recovery and probably doing around 2xVs, making a reasonable pullout around the figures quoted.

[lukep95]

Thanks for the response guys. A little more reassuring for sure! No problem on the drifting off subject ha.

Will be sure to let you know how it goes and with a video all being well!

Luke