a link sent by a friend: Global English (http://esl.about.com/od/englishforbusinesswork/a/global.htm?r=et)
(some teaching stuff at the end, too, not relevant here probably)
I was wondering what people with a wider look to the world (or 'look from above' in some cases :)) would say?
My language is spoken by very few people (in the global scale), and it's interesting and sometimes confusing (and hard to understand) how the 'unprecedented accents' of foreign learners sound. But I'd hesitate if asked for a 'global' version (simpler, probably, then, I guess). One's used to the little silly illogical things of a mother tongue - so difficult for one to learn, though.


Many English speakers do not speak English as their first language. In fact, they often use English as a lingua franca in order to communicate with other people who also speak English as a foreign language. At this point students often wonder what kind of English they are learning. Are they learning English as it spoken in Britain? Or, are they learning English as it is spoken in the United States, or Australia? One of the most important questions is left out. Do all students really need to learn English as it is spoken in any one country? Would it not be better to strive towards a global English? Let me put this into perspective. If a business person from China wants to close a deal with a business person from Germany, what difference does it make if they speak either US or UK English? In this situation, it does not matter whether they are familiar with UK or US idiomatic usage.

A more difficult problem is that of raising the awareness of native speakers. Native speakers tend to feel that if a person speaks their language they automatically understand the native speaker's culture and expectations. This is often known as "linguistic imperialism" and can have very negative effects on meaningful communication between two speakers of English who come from different cultural backgrounds.

Define "UK English".......

probes

There are already major regional variations happening e.g. Chinglish ( Chinese English ) and Indish ( Indian English ) but these are based on pragmatic usage and are not easy to understand on first hearing.

From the little I have read about them ( yes, only read ) they are a more advanced version of pidjin English.

I don't hold any hope of introducing ( successfully) a simplified "official" variant.

This is often known as "linguistic imperialism" and can have very negative effects on meaningful communication between two speakers of English who come from different cultural backgrounds.

I don't know if this is true if both are of non -anglophone roots. Would an Indian talking to a Chinese suffer from this problem ? I would guess probably not. If one is native anglophone then it may well happen if this person hasn't had any language training themselves or previously encountered this problem.

A Geordie and someone from Cornwall can be incomprehensible to each other, and that's within a distance of a few hundred miles, and both are native English speakers. That doesn't leave much hope for a 'global English' to prevail, apart from which I'd be sad to see the loss of regional and national variants which are one of the things that make travel and meeting people so interesting.

The idea of a global homogenous English is a non-starter, rather like the EU or a single currency. You cannot force these things to work.

I'd be sad to see the loss of regional and national variants which are one of the things that make travel and meeting people so interesting.

There's so much homogenization at work these days that these differences are becoming ever more diluted sadly. I wonder though, if 'we' all speak the same at some future point in time (and be homogenized in other ways), if 'we' will think/act/exist in harmonious ways, or at least more so than today ?


SHJ

At this point students often wonder what kind of English they are learning. Are they learning English as it spoken in Britain? Or, are they learning English as it is spoken in the United States, or Australia?

Well, to be frank I am not sure who is asking the question, the students or the journalist who wrote this text?

I did meet many students learning english, me to start with (yes I know, it is an ongoing process for me... ) and this question didn't pop up.

It looks a bit like a journalist thinking out loud and taking some imaginary students to support his point.


However accent might be an issue sometimes. Me with my french accent, I try to make myself clear knowingly english is not my language, and it works very well, in fact it works better now than before...

However I have met some native english speakers encountering real difficulties to make themselves understood, I remember of one coming from Texas with a huge, heavy, thick accent that the locals couldn't understand even though they clearly could speak some english, I basically had to translate (I actually understood him, but I am a traveller and am used to many different accents) into the same language, english, what he was asking.
Weird experience...

My point being, the issue is not to know where tube or subway come from, the issue, if there is any, could be the accent.

The Australian accent or American one from NY, or Canadian (Vancouver) for example, are quite easy to understand, the south african one, the east London, and Texas ones can be an issue at times.

Here is my experience with french and different french accent: when I go south of France, it takes me a few hours to get use to the accent.
When I go to Quebec, it takes me more than one week to understand without making any effort. But the Belgian or Switzerland accent has not been a problem for my understanding.
In Africa it could take a while to get use to the accent, even though the french accent of the french speakers in the north Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia...), or even Libanon, ME, is very easy to understand.

I think that the OP's first point about a simplified Global English emerging is true. Ive seen this in Dubai where for example, a Bangladeshi is speaking to a Filipino. Neither is a native English speaker, but they can communicate by using a simplified version of English. It took me some time to work out that many hotel staff will have a vocabulary of maybe ~ 1000 words in English but are not actually fluent. This could cause problems with me being understood as a native English speaker (because I would assume that they were fluent English speakers). I was hesitant to use the simplified version at first because I thought that they may think that I was making fun of them.

The second point about cultural imperialism is nonsense. Most of these situations arise from misunderstanding.

I agree with the statements made that it is virtually impossible to impose such a thing as "global English". Languages evolve continually, and even the impact of radio, television and other means of mass communication has not prevented their diversification into many global forms (thanks for the examples of varieties of French in different francophone countries, KAG). Attempts to impose limits on the changes in languages, either from pedants like me ( ;) ) who deplore much modern usage, or from institutes like the Acadamie Francaise are doomed to failure.

At this point students often wonder what kind of English they are learning. Are they learning English as it spoken in Britain?

ahh english as spoken in britain..

what people think they sound like....

Masterpiece MYSTERY!: Foyle's War - YouTube

what they actually sound like ...

Eastenders - Sam and Bianca's fight over Ricky - YouTube

The Australian accent or American one from NY, or Canadian (Vancouver) for example, are quite easy to understand, the south african one, the east London, and Texas ones can be an issue at times.

Aye, and if ye want a linguistic experience, go drinking with a Scotsman. You'll struggle to understand a bloody thing BEFORE the booze kicks in...... ;)


xar7Q2PpyIA

I claim to speak "standard" USA English, approximately the kind you hear from the news presenters on network radio or TV.

That said, some years ago about half of the "anchors" of prime-time US TV news programs spoke with traces of an Ontario accent. It's close enough to standard USA English that most people didn't seem to bother.

I've found that people in the UK, Oz and NZ have no trouble understanding me. On the other hand, I often have trouble understanding them. I attribute this to "cultural imperialism". US-accent movies are distributed world-wide, so people learn to understand that accent.

I hope that Bombay Duck joins this discussion. In a similar discussion a few years ago, he wrote of having to translate English-to-English between his Indian father and the Afro-American behind a pastry counter at the Cleveland, Ohio, airport. BD had seen enough US movies where some characters spoke Afro-American. I'm sure it was a "watered down" version, since I can't understand the "real" African-American.

Regional accents in the USA were stronger 60 years ago. A very low-budget network radio program in the early 1940s had their expert listen to people picked from the audience and he'd identify which area they came from. That would be much harder today.

I remember when Pratt & Whitney's overhaul manuals were re-written into a more simplified English. This was in recognition that their manuals were used all over the world not just by native English speakers. I feared the worst thinking it might be more childlike but in fact I was duly impressed by it's new clarity.

Essentially that's what you need if you want to use any form of Global English. But I would think it only worked in written English. English as it's spoken will always vary according to the country, region or even street where it's spoken. I have quite a different accent from people I grew up with. But on the other hand my wife's is quite similar to mine even though she grew up on the west coast of Ireland which is known for having a strong accent. On the other hand I recently auditioned for a small part in a TV series which required a Dublin accent. I didn't get it despite living most of my life in Dublin.

Accents are tending to flatten out in many English speaking countries.

I do find though that when I speak to a foreigner or even write to one. I somehow take on aspects of the way they use English. This can't be helpful to them in improving their English.

seacue,

Sorry, could you say that again, but perhaps a bit more slowly?

:E;):p

I prefer the term "Offshore English".

When I worked for an inter-galactic big corp I often had to send missives that had to be read across the world.

As English is my first language, I normally checked out my missives with the lady in the next office who was Finnish.

As she enjoyed pointing out, her English was so much better than mine.

Now, what was that you were saying about the future pluperfect?

In my first job, my boss was a German who came to the USA immediately after WW2. He had a fairly strong accent, but he knew English grammar better than most of us. Many years later he was engineering VP of Comsat.


Many years ago, when I first check in at a hotel in Oz, I turned on the TV. The program then playing was "The Price is Right", USA version.

As a native of England, and speaker of English as a first language, and one who speaks with no discernible dialect or UK regional accent, and one who has worked in several areas of the world I am surprised sometimes that people don't understand me when they say they speak English.

Last year I worked in Latvia in an airline where the company's operational language is English. The manuals were written in English, and the crews spoke English, albeit with a huge range of ability. The written English in the manuals, likewise, was variable with some parts well written, and other parts very badly translated. Offers to proof read and correct entries was not taken up.

The strangest thing was an Australian who had been in the company for several years spoke real pigeon English without definite articles, and other such grammatical points that he had dropped over the years in order to be better understood by poor speakers of English.

In my early days in ATC I was told by a (Bavarian) Supervisor that my English language skils were below average (I obviously had wasted my time getting A levels then) This from a man who couldn't tell the difference between "collaborator" amd "colleague".

Fortunately revenge was sweet; He wanted anything he wrote in English to be perfect so passed it to a Belgian colleague for checking. He in turn passed it to me and I took great pleasure in improving it, often reducing the document to complete gibberish. In all fairness it wasn't far off that to start with.
At Eurocontrol, and presumeably at many other European institutions,a much modified version of English has deeloped. This can sometimes be totally ununderstandable to outsiders.

And on the subject of accents; the Irish Minister of Aiation, talking about "... the sacred cause of European Unity...." had that rendered in French as ".... the sacred cows of european Unity ...."by a completely bi-lingual translator.

One was always understood 'Strine to be a form of pidgin English.:E






...And counting. 3.....2.....1...... :}

Generally the English are used to forriners mangling the language and we translate accordingly and listen more carefully and generally respond in a suitably simplified way.

Most other language-speakers (esp. the French) are not used to their language being mangled, haven't got the patience or inclination to listen and can't be bothered to respond except in their usual high speed colloquial heavily accented version (esp. the French). Hence most of the globe uses English and the English give up trying to use languages (esp. French) other than English.

((which is why, of course, no-one uses French except in very small unimportant regions of the globe, like parts of France [esp. Paris]))

I've been in aviation for 49 years and have worked in Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei and Nepal with colleagues from all those countries and with people whose native tongues include half a dozen Chinese dialects, Malay, Tamil, Hindi, Vietnamese, Thai, Japanese Spanish, Italian, French and the various Australian, New Zealand, American dialects of English. I can attest that the international language of aviation - the world's most global industry - is Broken English and most of us are fluent in it.

The future of English is Indian
More people speak it there than in the rest of the world put together

Perhaps this scene from 'Airplane' might illustrate a suitable core language for Global English? ;)

g0j2dVuhr6s

The future of English is Indian
More people speak it there than in the rest of the world put together

Chinglish is funnier though....


Some CD marker pens I bought had this classic on them:-


"Please keep out of children"

couple of examples of English as I remember if from my youth
We could tell which village people came from by the differences - even in just a mile or two

British Drama League - The Dorset Accent - Spoken By Walter Baller (Blackmore Vale) - YouTube

The EMG Presents: British Drama League The Somerset Accent - YouTube

More people speak it there than in the rest of the world put together

That will not be for very long. English is a compulsory subject at Chinese secondary schools and colleges and universities employ English native language teachers to prevent them from slipping into Chinglish. They are normally young adults who have a TOFEL certificate and work for a year or so. They don,t get a lot of money but they are accomodated and get the experience.

People say that Mandarin is the language to learn. Don't bother; any important Chinese will speak English and in the business world all the computers use English programming as a base.

They are normally young adults who have a TOFEL certificate

As someone whose professional life was spent as a linguist I would however wonder how good their English is. There are so many whose native language/accent/intonation/quality of expression is just simply bloody awful - quite as bad as Indish.

Good to hear that the future of the English language may rest with the Indians. When do they intend to tell those 'highly literate and articulate' Call Centre folk that regularly answer my calls of this. Their quality of diction invariably ends with me giving up trying to converse in my mother tongue with a person I cannot understand and who is speaking a version of English that is totally incomprehensible to me.
Stop the world I want to get off.
Temps.

I worked as a kitchen porter for 9 months in the SE of England in a large complex of three kitchens. Very few staff were actually English (I am English). I was soon surrounded by many staff from many countries. I realised after a while that I needed to interpret the English and meanings of the other workers on an individual level (and that included the Scottish manager:D). I needed to learn their English and what they were on about.

Lord knows how many versions of English became familiar to me. Some folk were clearly struggling to express themselves, as I have done whilst in France:ugh:. With others their abilities with English were quite remarkable. As regards to the HUGE and LOUD Italian Restuarant Manager, Alfio, there was absolutely no doubt as to what was required. One stare was quite enough, don't need no global english......

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

We've "discussed life" with some people for a couple of days, too, and the general agreement seems to be that the 'cultural understanding' may be absent between people of the same mother tongue as well :E. So...


(btw, the future of English for Engineering is said to rest with non-native speakers mostly, as the brightest brains supposedly come from India, Japan and the neighbouring areas).

The future of English is Indian
More people speak it there than in the rest of the world put together



but what about the food ?

Go For an English - Goodness Gracious Me - YouTube

My Uncle Tommy used to speak Hindi. He'd learnt it whilst in the
Army out that way. He caused quite a stir in the Pub whenever a
few of the local Hindi speakers turned up. It was a bit of a shock
for them.

We could charge the buggas for using it.:E

English is a compulsory subject at Chinese secondary schools

Once in Hong Kong I encountered a group of school children that wished to practice their English with me. By the time we were through, I had them singing* the theme song to the play/movie 'Oklahoma' and shouting 'Boomer Sooner' (my university sports chant) at the top of their lungs.





* Kind of, they were much better at shouting 'Boomer Sooner', seemed to like it better as well. They had a bit if a problem pronouncing Orkacoma. :p

Interesting that the working language of the International Telecommunications Union, the European Telcommunications Standards Institute and the Electronic Communications Committee (and its working parties and task groups) of the Conference of European Telecommunications and Postal authorities is English.

Arguments about English grammar and spelling come more from the non-native English speakers - the most of the younger UK delegates haven't learned grammar and in many cases, spelling!

mrs r1 has English as a second language. She speaks and understands it reasonably well, but visibly shudders on hearing the glottal stop that now seems to permeate every regional accent in the UK. I am orginally from Dorset, but having left Albion's shores decades ago my accent has all but disappeared.
She is very keen to improve her reading and writing skills, and has a text book in her native language to assist in this task. I have had to take a refresher in English grammar terms... and most of my younger colleagues have no idea what a tense or participle is.

ach, the glottal stop!
As it basically means a sound is 'stopped', could it stop 'decent' English eventually? :E

ICAO is run on English. It produces all its literature in about seven languages but the authoritive language is still English. It means that licences have an English translation and with my Chinese licence I am not allowed to use Chinese to operate the aircraft even if I could speak it. The reason is that there is a ICAO compentancy test for English that my co-pilot would have passed. There is no equivalent in Chinese.

This from a man who couldn't tell the difference between "collaborator" and "colleague". ... I think both the French and the Germans had this problem .... ;)

The future of English is Indian
More people speak it there than in the rest of the world put together

Should read "More people believe they speak it there than in the rest of the world". In practice, they often use English words but the syntax is their native Hindi, Tamil, Maharati or whatever, which makes their "English" hard to understand.

For instance: When arriving at a hotel, you will be asked "Where are you coming from?", to which the obvious answer will be "the direction of the drive-up/main entrance/etc.". They really mean "Where are you from?".

"You must visit only." Meaning: "you ought to see that place".