View Full Version : Those were the days . . . but when?
21st Jul 2012, 15:25
Here's a section of a half mil topo from the past (http://steemrok.com/oldtopo).
Most of the conurbations were smaller ‒ Milton Keynes was little more than a village. Fewer motorways. No HIRTAs. No EGLC. Much less regulated airspace. F111s out of Upper Heyford frightened student pilots swanning round the Oxford area. Compton was merely a marker before migrating eastward and turning into a VOR.
Not everything was different. Many of the VORs today still pump out their signals on the same frequencies as of yore.
But which year was it?
Sir George Cayley
21st Jul 2012, 15:40
A few clues I've noticed are the number of now closed airfields that are shown as open. The Southend SRZ disappeared as did Heyford. But when?
I'm going to plump for 1970.
21st Jul 2012, 16:04
Thorney Island closed so presumably post 1976.
How quickly do closed airfields get 'charted' LOL ?
From a gliding related clue I will go for 1979-80
21st Jul 2012, 16:10
Radlett closed in 1970 so, allowing a bit for that, I would go for 1971
21st Jul 2012, 16:51
Rissy and Thorney Island disused (post-'76)
Witney by-pass under construction ( opened 1978)
Pershore still open (closed 1978)
I'd say 1977 or 1978?
21st Jul 2012, 17:20
Thanks Discorde. If the host site of the map is yours (or a friend) it makes fun reading!
Buster the Bear
21st Jul 2012, 19:46
Luton Special Rules Zone!
21st Jul 2012, 21:10
No M11 beyond Stansted; Duxford runway shortened in `77`; approx `75...?
21st Jul 2012, 22:04
My motorbike threw a con-rod through its crankcase on the M1 in Jan 1977. I pushed it in the dark from J13 to J14 and up the slip-road but could then push it no further. I hitched a lift westbound from a truck driver but I very quickly asked to get out again when I saw a sign to "Milton Keynes". After walking less than fifty yards I regretted leaving the truck because all I could see was a field with a five bar gate and a footpath. The town didn't really exist.
I reckon the chart dates from about that year.
22nd Jul 2012, 01:49
Ford, Bognor, South Marston and Hamble all still open but Ashford (Lympne) closed so as I remember Ford was definitely open in '78 and I had a Hunter ride in '79 where we got close to a Viscount near Newbury on Delta Blue 32 (CPN [not to be confused with CPT which is at Hampstead Norris] - HRN) plus the LTMA was extended westward over the Basingstoke area in '82, I'd say '80-81.
22nd Jul 2012, 09:20
If it helps, this plog (http://steemrok.com/gvalhr) dates from the following year. But which airline? Which aircraft type?
(Thanks for your kind comments about the website, PAXboy.)
22nd Jul 2012, 16:55
It must pre-date April 1979 as the Bournemouth Special Rules Area is shown. This airspace changed to the Southampton SRA on that date.
22nd Jul 2012, 18:08
Discorde: "Plog" gives the game away! Could it be BEA/HS121/1976
23rd Jul 2012, 04:42
As Beagle posted - Pershore still marked as military (apparently closed 1978)
I did a low level pass down pershore rwy in 81/82 (Bulldog, pax) and was definitely closed then,although the radar was still active and chatty LOL.
From another gliding related clue it should not be later than 1982/83 (Debden) !
But all our guesses depend on how much (if any) 'Lag' there was between closures/changes and the CAA printing an updated chart.
23rd Jul 2012, 09:29
In the words of Young Mr Grace: 'You've all done very well!'
The plog was valid for various Mks of Tripods & 1-11s.
(You might need to explain the 'Young Mr Grace' allusion to younger readers. Ed.)
23rd Jul 2012, 17:16
Good one Discorde.
But hats off to the CAA who updated much of the chart pretty quickly...I dialled in too much 'lag' on my guess :)
So well done BEagle
23rd Jul 2012, 18:59
It was great to see that old 1/2mill chart!
I started flying in Spring 1968 on my RAF Scholarship at Bedfordshire Air Centre, Cranfield and would love to see the same chart from those days.
I think that was the year when MATZ were introduced? Certainly we had a chart of MATZ locations in our 'crew room', rather more military aerodromes back in those days......:hmm:
Local maps of 50 years ago are hard to source. Earlier perhaps, later certainly. But such chunks of our history need to be preserved!
23rd Jul 2012, 20:47
I started flying in Spring 1968 .... the same chart from those days
Ditto, and still got it.
29th Jul 2012, 18:11
These photos were taken during a summer afternoon. But which year? And where was the photographer positioned? And why is there such a range of flare heights and touchdown points?
29th Jul 2012, 21:20
MATZ were introduced much earlier than '68. They were depicted in an ATC Cadet training manual either Vol I or Vol II and formed part of the exam syllabus for either 'First Class Cadet' or 'Leading Cadet' training which I took in '62.
30th Jul 2012, 06:00
In the back is the Ariel hotel. I think you may have been on the track from the south side in front of the Air India Hangar airside before it became an issue.
31st Jul 2012, 12:16
Hmm ... there would appear to have been a clearing out of the attic at 'Chez Discorde!' Did 'A' tell you to get up there and do it, one wonders? I shall refrain from spoiling the fun as to where and when the photograph was taken from, because (a) you've told me in the past and (b) I've stood, perfectly legally, in that selfsame spot.
31st Jul 2012, 15:29
Bonjour, How Item (correction courtesy du Coin des Pédants).
I'm not sure if I occupied the spot legally. After 30 mins or so happily munching lunchtime sandwiches & taking photos a couple of security bods drove up and asked me what I was doing. They sighed sympathetically and asked me to go back to my place of work, about 50 metres away.
The pix were taken exactly 8 years after this loco (pictured at Paddington) was delivered to BR. (Yes, more nerdy stuff from the attic).
Comment ça va pour Mme Argonaut?
(Caution: you're close to exceeding the obscurity limit, Discorde. Ed.)
31st Jul 2012, 16:46
Western Region Warship Class 'Kelly', so according to your clues, the photos would be from October1968. When I was enjoying the rituals of Flt Cdt training at RAFC Cranwell, having been there for a few weeks of hair cuts, cleaning and polishing and square-bashing.....:\
By the way, what was the date of the ½ mill topo?
17th Aug 2012, 11:41
The topo was from 1977.
The photos were taken in August 1968, from the spot marked with a red cross on this image. My job during the student summer vac was at the Air Canada Commissary Dept (red circle), a ramshackle collection of buildings next to the Eagle hangars (yellow circle). I still have some peelable chinagraph pencils at home 'borrowed' from AC 44 years ago.
http://steemrok.com/LHR eagle ac
There are some noteworthy (or nerdworthy) points in the photos:
(i) one of the VC10s and the Electra are touching down right wing low, suggesting a crosswind from the right. Given that R23 was used for landing during strong SW winds, perhaps on this day the wind had veered and the airport managers had not yet got around to switching to 28L
(ii) there are several differences between the 707s: the older BOAC -436s have a different arrangement of nose gear doors, only outboard LE flaps (or slats?) and feature the ventral fin required by D P Davies for UK certification to improve engine-out directional stability and protection against over-rotation
(iii) one of the VC10s is a 'Standard'; the other two are 'Supers'
(iv) the Pan Am 707 and one of the VC10s look set for long (and fast?) touchdowns, judging by their heights and attitudes; were there ILS and VASIs serving R23 in 1968?
Also retrieved from the attic are a couple of pix of Eagle hardware, which I'll process and publish when I get round to it.
Okay, Mary, sing the thread's theme tune (which also dates from 1968).
Those were the days
31st Aug 2012, 11:26
Here's an extract from an Ian Allan trainspotters' book (http://steemrok.com/combinedvol) . . . but from which year?
31st Aug 2012, 19:57
2010,as it includes `Tornado`..?
31st Aug 2012, 20:47
<<Given that R23 was used for landing during strong SW winds, perhaps on this day the wind had veered and the airport managers had not yet got around to switching to 28L>>
Airport managers do not determine the runway in use; that's an ATC responsibility.
1st Sep 2012, 10:55
Here's the book cover:
2nd Sep 2012, 10:20
The original was 1959 Discourse. Presumably a recent reprint with Tornado tacked on? Love the racehorse names, always surprised that Hurry On wasn't used on the A3s, as it would've been perfect on a steam loco! Or was winning the Derby a requirement?
2nd Sep 2012, 12:17
I believe that Derby winners were the requirement. It could produce some interesting events. Peter Townend, the shedmaster at King's Cross always swore that it was a sheer coincidence that a train conveying a collection of Bishops to York for a Synod meeting was hauled by "Robert the Devil".
2nd Sep 2012, 17:03
Presumably a recent reprint with Tornado tacked on?
The amended version only exists in cyberspace. The 'Tornado' mod was pasted into the original scan using Paint Shop Pro. So the year is 1959 - or 2012.
(You really need to get out more, Discorde. Ed.)
4th Sep 2012, 09:18
(iv) the Pan Am 707 and one of the VC10s look set for long (and fast?) touchdowns, judging by their heights and attitudes; were there ILS and VASIs serving R23 in 1968Vasis certainly. The disparity in touchdown points reflects the amount of chicken factor added to Vref to counteract gusts, Note that the shorthaul operators are the ones with the least.