Be careful when fishing. This one has a big bite.

[donpizmeov]

India fishermen deny US ship warned them in UAE shooting

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/61633000/jpg/_61633099_015330029.jpg Muthu Muniraj was shot in the legs when the USNS Rappahannock opened fire
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Indian fishermen injured when their boat was shot at by a US Navy ship off the coast of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) say they received no warnings before they came under fire.
One fisherman was killed and three others injured when the USNS Rappahannock raked the small boat with machinegun fire near Dubai on Monday.
The US Navy says the boat approached at speed and ignored repeated warnings.
Indian and US officials have launched investigations into the incident.
The shooting comes as the US expands its military presence in the Gulf, ramping up pressure on Iran over its nuclear programme.
'Very sudden' Fisherman Muthu Muniraj, 28, speaking to Reuters news agency from hospital in Dubai, said they had not received any warnings from the US refuelling ship.
"We had no warning at all from the ship, we were speeding up to try and go around them and then suddenly we got fired at," he said.
Mr Muniraj was shot in the legs.
"We know warning signs and sounds and there were none. It was very sudden. My friend was killed, he's gone. I don't understand what happened."
The crew of the boat - six Indians and two Emiratis - said they had been returning from trawling in waters off Jebel Ali.
"We were fishing and then on the way back they started shooting at us, so many shots, like a storm," said Muthu Kannan, 35.
He suffered gunshot wounds to the abdomen and leg.
"This is not the first time for us to go out in the boat and we all know what a warning is," said Pandu Sanadhan, 26.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/61606000/jpg/_61606604_015325215.jpg A security team on the Rappahannock opened fire after the boat failed to heed warnings, the US says
"All I can remember is a lot of shooting."
The identity of the fisherman who was killed has not yet been released.
The dead man and his wounded colleagues all came from the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu.
The US embassy in Delhi issued a statement on Tuesday "to convey its condolences" to the families of the crew.
US defence officials said on Monday that after "the vessel disregarded non-lethal warnings and rapidly approached the US ship", a security team on the Rappahannock fired rounds from a .50-calibre machine gun.
There were concerns of a repeat of the suicide attack 12 years ago on the destroyer USS Cole in which a small boat was used, they added.
Indian Foreign Minister SM Krishna described Monday's death as "unfortunate" and said the matter had been taken up with the United States.
Monday's incident follows the killing of two Indian fishermen in February off India's southern coast by Italian marines guarding an oil tanker. The marines said they mistook the fishermen for pirates.
Two Italian marines have been charged with murder and are on trial in India and the incident has caused a diplomatic row between the two countries.

[ArkPilot]

The Emiratis were driving, the Indians were the crew(fishermen).

I'll let you draw your own conclusions.:hmm:

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Fly your 380 nearby and you will discover yourself if they truly are!!!!

[The Outlaw]

When someone with a bigger gun(s) ask you to do something, you do it. I'd expect that even the most colossally stupid could figure that one out.

I expect they chose to ignore the repeated warnings, probably in different many different languages over the hailer as well.

I wonder how far I'd get if I choose to ignore the local police on my little boat going high speed toward the Burj Al Arab?

Trigger happy....I don't think so, taking what means are necessary in a short time to protect oneself given the nature of terrorism I'd say those clowns were lucky to not have been blown into the next galaxy.

[ironbutt57]

"We had no warning at all from the ship, we were speeding up to try and go around them and then suddenly we got fired at,


If they weren't smart enough to pass astern rather than try to out run the ship, they probably weren't clever enough to recognize the warning...these fisherman here do the same, they will not alter course no matter what...many pleasure boats and otherwise have to swerve or alter course dramatically to avoid these folks...no seamanship skills whatsoever....

[tbaylx]

After what happened to the Cole i would think they would be a bit more "trigger happy". You have to be a bit dense to drive a boat at a navy ship in the gulf, warnings or not. The survivors are lucky it was only a 50 that shot them up.

[Mr Good Cat]

Whilst I can understand that the navy guys might be a bit tense based on the Yemen incident, a certain amount of common sense needs to be applied... or perhaps at least some better training.

For a start the Iranians are not a two-bit terrorist group looking for a quick hit, and although the threat of terrorism exists to a small extent from the odd fanatical fundamentalist group it's unlikely to occur in waters off Jebel Ali.


These poor fisherman are third-world born, possibly uneducated and illiterate and inevitably not as wary of the issues of sailing close to US military vessels. Although the US does face a small threat from some radical fundamentalist groups in the Gulf it is unlikely to happen off the coast of Jebel Ali, as most of the groups sponsors probably have financial interests in Dubai that they would not want to be harmed.


And as for Iran, they're a country with a military with big ambitions... hardly likely they'd want to enhance their reputation by ramming a Warship with a fishing boat terrorist-style. That would just be embarrassing.


My big worry now with this new-found paranioa is that we could face another incident like the 1989 Iran Air one, where simple common sense and proper procedures could prevented the deaths of hundreds of innocent Joe's like you and me just going about our daily business...

[The Turtle]

I seriously doubt any of the Indians were driving that boat

[ironbutt57]

Whilst I can understand that the navy guys might be a bit tense based on the Yemen incident, a certain amount of common sense needs to be applied... or perhaps at least some better training.


Keep your condescending attitude sharp there matey...let's see it shine it when it happens to some of your shipmates.....

[boeingoriaintgoing]

Mr good Cat,
You are either very naive or just stupid. All it takes is one suicide boat like the one that hit the USS Cole. The terrorists will have all the publicity they need and the US Navy, like you, will look stupid and naive for worrying more about political correctness than about their own security. Anybody who approaches a naval warship in a hurry and doesn't know that it's dangerous has no business in the water. It's just as stupid as the Indians in Dubai who run across the highways in Dubai and don't realize that it could kill you until it's too late. I see a trend.

[NG_Kaptain]

I seriously doubt any of the Indians were driving that boat

Bet the boat's captain thought he could take the habibi lane road habits to the sea.

[boeingoriaintgoing]

Hey ex A380-800 driver,
That's right, so you just better watch yourself around those "Yanks" or you could be the next ex live-breathing human.

[vinayak]

And any of this is pertinent to the middle east forum because?

[The Outlaw]

maybe if you paid a little attention you might have figured that out on your own...do YOU happen to fish off the coast of Jebel Ali?

[Craggenmore]

what would the reaction be

sadly, an overreaction..!

[SassyPilotsWife]

Whilst I can understand that the navy guys might be a bit tense based on the Yemen incident, a certain amount of common sense needs to be applied... or perhaps at least some better training




Looks to me like they completed it.

You don't see a huge hole on the side of this warship do ya. :D

[General Dogsbody]

Say's it all really!!

[donpizmeov]

Hole in the fishing boat sassy. Weren't you collecting for indians last Ramadan? How do you spell hypocrite?

[BDD]

Hey Don,

She's a women. She gets to change her mind.:ugh:

BDD

[vinayak]

The outlaw,

What I meant was this has no relation to flying or aviation. Come to a forum like PPRuNe wouldn't except such a thread. I could understand anything to do with an airline, a pilots perspective but not this.

Thank you for replying to my post by the way and have a good day ahead

[Jetaim]

A 677-foot United States Navy refueling ship in the Persian Gulf opened fire on Monday with a .50-caliber machine gun on what appeared to be a 30-foot sport fishing boat after it ignored repeated warnings to stop, killing a crew member and causing a spike in oil prices that reflected the heightened tensions in the region between Iran and the United States.

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The United States Fifth Fleet command in Bahrain said in a statement that the shooting took place near the coast of the United Arab Emirates , a close American ally. The statement did not specify whether there were casualties or identify the nationality of the smaller vessel. But an American defense official said one person was dead, and the official news agency of the United Arab Emirates identified the victim as an Indian fisherman. At least three other Indians aboard were wounded, the agency said.

The encounter, which the Fifth Fleet command said was under further investigation, came against a backdrop of increasingly belligerent warnings from Iran against a buildup of naval forces in the area by the United States, which considers the free flow of oil from the Persian Gulf a vital national interest. The tensions have grown this month because of new Western sanctions aimed at stifling Iran’s oil exports.

The larger vessel’s response also appeared to reflect heightened awareness of the potential threat of small powerboats piloted by suicide attackers, such as the one that blew a 40-foot hole in the side of the Navy destroyer Cole in October 2000 while it was refueling in the Yemeni port of Aden, killing 17 sailors.

The news of the shooting on Monday, along with reports over the weekend that Iran planned to increase its military presence around the Strait of Hormuz, a vital oil transit route at the Persian Gulf’s entrance, lifted international oil benchmark prices by as much as $2 a barrel on Monday.

The Fifth Fleet said the encounter happened near the Emirates port of Jebel Ali, a docking point for American naval vessels about 30 miles southwest of Dubai.

“An embarked security team aboard a U.S. Navy vessel fired upon a small motor vessel after it disregarded warnings and rapidly approached the U.S. ship near Jebel Ali,” Lt. Greg Raelson, a spokesman for the Fifth Fleet, wrote in an e-mailed statement.

“In accordance with Navy force protection procedures, the sailors on the U.S.N.S. Rappahannock used a series of nonlethal, preplanned responses to warn the vessel before resorting to lethal force,” he said in the statement. “The U.S. crew repeatedly attempted to warn the vessel’s operators to turn away from their deliberate approach. When those efforts failed to deter the approaching vessel, the security team on the Rappahannock fired rounds from a. 50-caliber machine gun.”

Lieutenant Raelson did not immediately provide further details.

Defense officials said the Navy crew’s efforts to warn away the vessel, which appeared to be a pleasure craft, included firing several warning shots.

The Rappahannock is a fleet replenishment oiler, used to refuel other naval vessels at sea. The Web site of the Navy’s Military Sealift Command described it as 677 feet long and 97 feet wide, with a regular crew of 84, of whom 81 are civilian mariners; the embarked security team would be in addition to the regular crew.

The Associated Press reported from Dubai that the smaller boat could have been mistaken for a threat in the gulf waters off Dubai, which are not far from Iran’s maritime boundaries.

The smaller vessel docked after the episode in a small Dubai port used by fishermen, and dozens of police officers and Emirati officials crowded around it, The A.P. reported, describing the vessel as a white-hulled civilian craft about 30 feet long, powered by three outboard motors. Similar boats are used for fishing in the region. Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps also uses relatively small, fast-moving craft in the Persian Gulf.

[The Outlaw]

Totally disagree with you. Flying around in areas where there is elevated military action is stuff every pilot (and sea captain) ought to be aware of...you know, monitoring guard frequencies, pre calling Air Defence radar prior to FIR entry, awareness of interception procedures....etc etc etc....maybe this is something you don't do?

If the guys were posting here about ladies fashion, Oprah re-runs or the latest song by Cher then I'd say you might have a point.

Otherwise I think its a fair post especially since many of us live close by.

PS...Right back at you re: nice day ahead.

[NG_Kaptain]

Totally disagree with you. Flying around in areas where there is elevated military action is stuff every pilot (and sea captain) ought to be aware of...you know, monitoring guard frequencies, pre calling Air Defence radar prior to FIR entry, awareness of interception procedures....etc etc etc....maybe this is something you don't do?

If the guys were posting here about ladies fashion, Oprah re-runs or the latest song by Cher then I'd say you might have a point.

Otherwise I think its a fair post especially since many of us live close by.

PS...Right back at you re: nice day ahead.
19th Jul 2012 02:08

Totally agree. We also post about DU and Etisalat, traffic on Sheik Zayed Highway (AKA Sh!t Your Dead Highway) and things that affect aviation professionals living and working in the region.

[casablanca]

It may have been a misunderstanding of the warning....but seems very poor judgement to go speeding towards any war ship.

[Iver]

The Gulf may get hotter and start to glow if Iran and its ancillary terrorist network groups continue to kill innocent Israeli tourists. :mad::eek:

[CAYNINE]

That's what happens when you go sailing up next to a big grey ship with numbers painted on the bow...... even fishermen would know that has some inherent problems associated with it, especially after the USS Cole attack.

[GANNET FAN]

Oh hang on a minute, a sport fishing boat with 3 outboards. That indicates a need for speed, not jollying along with lines out of the stern.

[CAYNINE]

Even so, every one knows how paranoid the Yanks are....I'm not justifying it, but come on, everyone knows the danger involved if you approach a military ship, plane, facility.

[Jetaim]

...and look what heat can do to your brain. EX 380 blah blah...better you pay a visit to Dr. Ahmed...

[HamFan]

You're wrong, Sass. The training was completed stateside; this was the test of knowledge and it looks like they passed.

Local fishing trip, habibi style:

-Stand around in white dress, talking to friends on cell phone while indians refuel boat, load bait.
-Talk on cell while driving fast with over-powered triple-outboard to GPS location someone else found.
-Call friends on cell while indian drops anchor, gets tackle, assembles rod, baits hook, casts line, gets nibble then hands over the rod.
-Reel in fish until bored or tired.
-Hand rod to indian and call friends on cell.
-Look away while indian reels in fish.
-Smile for camera holding fish "you" caught.
-Drive fast to GPS location of marina in straight line watching the NAV screen and calling friends on cell, ignoring large grey navy vessels directly ahead - "MY country..."
-Get hosed down by vessel and blame dead indian, now duct-taped back together and propped up behind what's left of the wheel.
-Call friends on cell and start massaging the "facts".
-Insist leftover indians clean your fish before short-changing them on salary.

[HamFan]

They're not tourists, they're "guest residents."

[The Outlaw]

It wasn't their fault....

I mean these warships are camouflaged and difficult to see, and all that very loud "STOP YOUR ENGINES AND DO NOT MOVE OR YOU WILL BE FIRED UPON" though the hailer, no doubt in Arabic, Farsi, Urdu, English along with the sirens and flashing lights could have just been wind noise in the sun canopy or the sounds of waves lapping the hull.

Yes...I'm sure that they were taken completely by surprise. Perhaps the tinting was too dark to see the 700 foot vessel ahead.

Who needs common sense anyway?

[The Outlaw]

Ham...

You are wise to the ways of this land.....but do you know the airspeed velocity of a laden swallow carrying a coconut which it grippith by the husk?

[The Outlaw]

The American military can't hold a candle to Australia Quarantine. It's they that should be running the country's defense.

[Carjockey]

@CAYNINE
Even so, every one knows how paranoid the Yanks are....I'm not justifying it, but come on, everyone knows the danger involved if you approach a military ship, plane, facility.

Er, no. Not everyone understands this. An Indian boat crew from a p*ss-poor background are likely to follow any instructions given to them (apparently there were two Emirati's on board) in fear of losing their jobs.

To me, it looks like a thrill ride which went wrong.

[fliion]

Hey Ex A380,

Trigger happy Yanks you say...

May be they should have done what the 15 Royal Navy sailors did in 2007 when they were approached by Iranian Rev Guard sailors in Iraqi/Intl controlled waters - throw their arms in the air, their guns in the water and allow themselves to be taken prisoner for two weeks...

... Yes it would have been a different story back then if it was 'trigger happy Yanks'...Of that you can be rest assured.

But hey...each to their own.

; >

f.

[ironbutt57]

X380=tosser

[Dropp the Pilot]

This message is hidden because Ex A380-800 driver is on your ignore list=adult conversation.

Try it, you'll like it.

[yada.yada.yada]

Repeated warnings, yet still carry on unabated toward a military ship full of fuel? Yet you say this cannot be justified by any sane citizen? Would love to know your definition of sanity.

If you were in charge of said ship armed with the knowledge of what has been done in the past...what would you do, keeping in mind you have the luxury of time...no Armchair Quarterbacking please.

[ironbutt57]

You're welcome, they also have a history of being in harms way so arrogant pricks like you have the liberty to criticize them, walk a mile in their shoes then think about it

[Flyer1015]

While it sucks what happened, you can't go charging at a US Naval ship and not expect some action. My understanding is they gave out several warnings before firing, and the offending ship didn't respond or change course.

And yes I wish Ron Paul stood a chance, but unfortunately, it's going to be more of the same crap with Obama or Romney.

[donpizmeov]

As an aside ironbutt, Ex380 has spent more time in a military career than his airline one. So, using your logic it would give him some cred in being " arrogant pricks".
Remember this Oiler had mostly civilian crew embarked. The protection team on board were contractors. It is action like this by contractors that put serving members greater at risk.

The Don

[donpizmeov]

Flyer, they were not charging a USN ship, they were entering port and overtaking the vessel. Ever been to north Island when a Carrier is on the way in or out? No one sits back and waits, there nor here.
There is no published notice to mariners stating that USN or any military vessels are to be avoided by any set distance. There is nothing published about horns and whistles being the precursor to being fired upon. Just because some Contractor thinks blowing a horn is a warning doesn't mean anyone else understands what it means.

The Don

[fliion]

Ex380,

Seeing as your an expert on US foreign policy. What nationality are?.

f

[TangoUniform]

Seat belts on, this might start to get a little rough.....MODS?

[Alconguin Crusader]

"If the Yanks did not have such an appalling foreign policy record, then perhaps they would not be targeted every where they go." EX 380

Was our appalling foreign policy such a bad thing when we saved your ass not once but twice last century? How many trillion of dollars did we as "Yanks" have to spend to protect your tiny little island so you didn't have to. How many "Yanks" died on your continent because you as a country were not up to the task.
Was this the same foreign policy you find so appalling.
Give credit where credit it do. You would be speaking German right now if it wasn't for the appalling Yanks and yes that is arrogant. I am pissed off that we spent all that money and treasure for you ungrateful sap.
What did you do in the military X380?
I rememeber years ago a British general came and spoke to a civic group in America. He gave a lecture and it waas interesting and everything but towards the end of it he said he would like for the Americans to leave the continent of Europe and especially England. He had his points but someone in the group asked the general if we pulled out would he guarantee never to ask the Americans to come to England's or Europe's aid and send men and material. He didn't answer and moved quickly to end the lecture.
Maybe you would like the Chinese to protect you?

[pilotday]

think ex380 is aussie, but will never admit it as he's a little confused about his own nationality when he's too busy playing American wanna-be riding his Harley Davidson around Dubai.

At any rate, it doesn't matter which country you're from. Some of the coolest guys at EK are both from UK, AUS etc... Its a melting pot of 3500 pilots.

We are one pilot group and people like don and ex380 destroy morale by their immature rants and generalizations. And I'm not even sure if don and ex380 are the same person with two different accounts. It would be sad if you defend yourself with multiple logins as if you had friends.

This would be a non issue if it was another NATO country ship. It sounds like ex-380 and don were first hand witnesses to the accident so I guess we should trust their discriminative views.

Why do you hate America so much? Jealously? What happened? did JFK controllers hurt your feelings one night? make you feel small? Compensating for vertically challenged deficiency? aka. short pilot syndrome?

who knows, anyway, life is too short to be so angry. Be happy America is protecting Dubai and UAE.

get over it and grow up.

[pilotday]

well, I bet no one will get too close to an American war ship anymore.

[tbaylx]

You can spout opinion all ya want ex 380, but they are your biases, and your anti american political views are getting in the way of an intelligent argument should you actually be capable of one. Blaming the shoot up in Colorado on american gun laws reeks of ignorance. Hey there has been a couple shoot ups in a mall in Toronto lately, must be those canadian gun laws and bad canadian attitudes that brought that upon them eh? :)

Facts in this case are very clear. An american naval ship is not a rare thing in the Gulf, and approach one at your peril. They tried going with no force protection plan and some deranged idiots drove a leaky little boat loaded with lots of stuff that goes boom into the side of a billion dollar Arleigh Burke destroyer and cost 17 navy lives. Now they have force protection on board and very clear well publicized rules of engagement that aren't a secret to anyone. As a boat captain in the Gulf it's your job to be aware of them and abide by the rules..if you don't then you get dead or sunk or both.

They warned the ship off, including warning shots. If you are too unaware and unprofessional to realize that you are in danger approaching a US navy ship in a speedboat in the Gulf and ignore warnings then you really are a master of your own demise. No trigger happy "yanks" there, just simply professional military men doing their job as force protection.

And Don you are incorrect..500 yards is the Naval Vessel Protection Zone, requires slow speed and radio contact, and never closer than 100 yards and it's public knowledge. Look it up if you will. If i know that and i'm not a captain of a commercial boat then there isn't really an excuse for not knowing it. They were also 10 miles out of port, so it's hardly a case of they were heading into port and couldn't avoid them.

You can argue American foreign policy all you want, but at the end of the day if I had to have a country as my ally that most reflected the values in a world where my kids are growing up it would be the Americans. That's my opinion, but it really doesn't affect the facts of the incident off the Jebel Ali coast.

[Kennytheking]

I'm probably not as well informed as you guys on topical US affairs but I take a simplistic view.

The Indian/UAE boat may have been stupid and made a mistake.
I don't know the conditions on the day but visibility and seaspray can obscure vision. That US ship does not have a distinct warship profile. A quick glance at the picture and it looks to me like a regular ship.
I doubt the UAE boat would have continued its course in the face of a clear warning. Even with the warnings given, clearly they were inadaquate.
It was not a terrorist attack and now one of them is dead.

The US ship firing on the UAE boat may be understandable, however, where I come from, a perceived need to defend yourself has never been a reasonable legal defense for killing innocent people(aka murder).
People need to be held accountable for their actions, even if it is understandable. I believe it's called manslaughter.

As a 'superpower' the US should hold itself to a higher standard than this......with power comes responsibility. And, yup, if they going go around killing people at will, then we may just as well be protected by the Chinese.....same thing isn't it?

@tbaylx, I have to admit that I am not a fan of US foreign policy, although I agree with you, its a nice country internally(finances aside). However, surely even you have to admit that this cinema shooting is bizarre and your people are asking themeslves how this guy bought 6000 rounds of ammunition without raising suspicion. Freedom has it's limits and I have yet to understand what ordinary citizens need fully automatic rifles for?

Also, I should point out that in the UAE there is no requirement to have a skippers licence for small boats, so why would these guys have known about the 'special' rules of engagement for a US warship? There is no list of rules available domestically, so these guys would not have been aware of these special requirements unless they had googled them beforehand.

[ironbutt57]

Let the investigation which will no doubt include UAE officials bear the results...just like any of you/us would appreciate if WE were involved in an aircraft incident....right?? I am a regular pleasure boater, and yes there are no "rules of non-engagement" available to us...maybe what comes as common sense to one, may not to another...sad for the people who lost their lives..

[Craggenmore]

Maybe you would like the Chinese to protect you?

A.Crusader,

Please don't dishonour the millions of lives lost throughout all the allied forces over WW1 and WW2.

The US forces played a major role in Northern France as you so politely explained to someone who is 100% not British in your post.

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.

Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime. . .

Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,

Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est,
Pro patria mori.

[drive73]

380,
Your obviously not aware of the strict protocol for a US navy ship to open fire. I can assure you warnings were definatly given. You can't just open fire at will. Whether the warnings were taken the correct way or understood is obviously an issue, but usually some shots across the direction of the risk vessel are given and if you can't understand what that means, well boating may not be your thing.
Whether or not you agree with US foreign policy, the world and especially the gulf would be a very different place without US presence. Debatable whether better or worse depending if your country benifits, which most gulf countries benifit greatly.
And for the record please tell us which government is not completly screwed up and corrupt. The US is criticized if they act and critisized if they don't act, unfortunately as your government does it acts in its own best intrests, it's positions are more visible due to the fact it's a superpower and it has more capability to influence outcomes.

380, do you always make assumptions with one side of the story? Talk about trigger happy:ok:..

[fliion]

Ex380

If you are in fact Australian, may your family rest a little more secure tonight knowing that American tax dollars are paying for that new 2500 man USMC base in Northern Australia as counterweight to Chinese posturing in the Pacific.

No thanks necessary...but a tipped cap...very much appreciated.

f.

[vfenext]

I think the people of South Vietnam had a warm feeling of protection from the USMC not too long ago. Until the brave protectors ran away and left them to their own devices against the nasty communists. They didn't rest too easy in their beds. Perhaps we better not talk about that one eh! Quit the chest beating filion and grow up.

[drive73]

Vf,

The problem with the Vietnam war and the others that have been fought after were rules of engagement, which the western world tries to abide by. Unfortunately, when one side fights with a set of rules and the other doesn't it is a war that cannot be won. Sometimes it's better to throw the baby out with the bath water, instead of slowly and inefectivly trying to not injure the innocent, who pay dearly whether they are killed or just live in a war zone for years losing friends, family, and dreams.

[BeCareful]

Wow... where does one begin?

Anyone who lives in the UAE knows that Indians and Emiratis will NEVER EVER admit to being wrong... can't lose face... let's not even go into Indian competence... remember habibi, cheaper is better.

On the other hand... the US military in general has very restrictive rules of engagement... gotta maintain the whole political-correctness until the very last possible minute. Sadly, many American lives have been lost due to political correctness. 380 brought up Somalia as fail. Right... because of political correctness. SecDef didn't want to authorize tanks or AC-130 as it was "too high profile and too much firepower." Really??!

I won't even go into the political correctness BS that has taken place during subsequent actions/conflicts, but rest assured it's sickening and not worth a single American life.

I feel sorry for the guy that lost his life in this tragic incident, but it was an appropriate response from the US Navy given no response and time to make the call.

[ironbutt57]

The local Navy liaison officers should in conduction with the local coast guard folks post flyers regarding do's n donut's when operating pleasure craft in the vicinity of military/civilian support vessels....and make big simple posters available at all marinas and piers...I wonder if they were trying to out run the ship and cross it's bow?? Most of us know this is a no-no, and to give way when any military vessel, US or otherwise approaches....apparently these poor fellows didn't...and one wouldn't expect them to....

[vfenext]

drive 73, are these the same rules of engagement which were used during the My Lai massacre and the countless other events in that and other US engagements? If you need an excuse try something more credible.

[ironbutt57]

Just everybody calm down and wait...the same folks bagging the trigger-happy Yanks, will be crying for help again in the future...history is doomed to repeat itself...

[SassyPilotsWife]

"Hole in the fishing boat sassy. Weren't you collecting for indians last Ramadan? How do you spell hypocrite?"

Don..

Yes and doing it again this year minus 1. Now what are you doing for them besides sitting in your a/c cooled EK paid for pad in front of a computer typing about it ?

[SassyPilotsWife]

EX,

Are you saying gun laws will prevent shooting sprees ?

Please tell me more about how criminals follow laws :ugh:

[Turkeyslapper]

If you are in fact Australian, may your family rest a little more secure tonight knowing that American tax dollars are paying for that new 2500 man USMC base in Northern Australia as counterweight to Chinese posturing in the Pacific.

:yuk:

Don't know if he is however I am....I don't think the Australian government went running to good ol uncle Sam, cap in hand saying...oh oh oh can we please have 2500 Marines here to protect us. I hope sincerely the Marines don't turn up with that belief as that will really win over the Northern Territory locals :ok:

Chinese posturing in the Pacific , yeh sure however, so are our American friends. In fact, maybe the US should be saying a thankyou to Australia and the community which they will soon....erm...contribute to...."we need somewhere to put our Marines who we need to move out of Japan so we can maintain a counterweight to the Chinese posturing in the Pacific, can we please station them in Australia for training periodically, oh thankyou" with a tip the hat :E

I have served along side our American allies and I have great admiration for them however, the above comment just tippifies the stereotypical image that people have of Team America...F#ck yeh!

Cheers

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Don't worry the Aussie forces will teach them a thing or two.

They could start with the alphabet.

Results from the National Assessment of Adult Literacy (NAAL), available through the National Center for Education Statistics (http://nces.ed.gov/), found that 30 million adults have “below basic” literacy skills, with more than half of those scoring at this level not having a high school diploma or GED. This translates to nearly 1 out of every 6 adults, age 25 and older, across the country.

[The Turtle]

Thank goodness we don't have a union....the meetings would be....uh.....spirited

[fliion]

Only one difference between Americans & Aussies...

...we know we're not liked.

f.

PS. In the history of Australian military activity - the longest conflict they were involved with was the Vietnam War - 1962-1975.

[ironbutt57]

Why do we waste money on a base in that dump, let whoever wants it have it!!!

[fliion]

Ex380,

The Vietnam reference was a response to a previous post on Vietnam. We were not the only ones there.

Look my postings generally reflect a friendly point of view though syntax & tone get lost via type.

There is a default reaction to 'yanks' as there is to 'Aussies'. Many of my good buds are Oz...and I think they get a bad rap around here...though they seem to believe that others find their country interesting. Just ask around on the Boeing who is a neutral...JFK or SYD, ...SFO or BNE, MEL or LAX, SEA or PER, DFW or ADL...yada yada yada...it's a no brainier to non Ozzies.

I think Americans get a bad rap.

Let's say we all had a choice of three different superpowers - China, Russia & the USA. Afterall its not fair to compare small countries to superpowers as you do not shoulder the same strategic burdens that we do.

Which system best provides for the aspirations of your kids...the Russian, Chinese or American system.

So why does all this coffee shop energy get spent on critiquing a democracy that has sacrificed so many lives for good causes. Our system is the only one that works well (perfect? No).., Facism, Nazism, Communism, Authoritarianism, Jihadism... All defeated or will be...Capitalism? While flawed if laws are broken (bankawankas) will always prevail.

But vitally, many friends of America know that if their sovereignty is challenged ..we are first in and last out. Yet we always get slammed.

A previous poster said that WWII was a long time ago. In America the 'greatest generation 'are still alive. It's not that long ago that we will forget....we will never forget...nor should the world...

f.

[vfenext]

we are first in and last out
That was a joke right? You show an astonishing lack of knowledge of your own history. Too much CNN perhaps.

[drive73]

Ex, how in the world would don know there were contractors on board? This is the kind of knee jerk before the dust is settled reactions I see after a crash. Everybody knows what happened before the investigators even arrive on seen. Just because an article was written two hours after the incident happens doesn't mean it's true.. I agree contractors have been in the news at times, but it's war and if one side has rules and the other doesn't it will frustrate soldiers and bad things happen when guys hands are tied.
You may not like American foreign policy, but America has its own interest in mind first, just like your country puts its policies first. If they didn't you would vote them out of office. Why don't you look up and post who gives the most aid to foreign countries in need, who gives the most to charity. You may think Americans are dumb, arrogant, cowboy or whatever you generalization is, but in times of crisis and conflict I don't see too many other countries stepping up and taking the lead and until your country does there is not much room to critisize.
I think you are losing a large amount of credibility generalizing about Americans. It's a very diverse country, try to stay on point.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

I was ever forced to make a choice however I would be shoulder to shoulder with "the yanks" every time.

Exactly! Don't ever have them behind you - as the Brits and Canuks found out in both Gulf wars and Afghan. 'Friendly fire' I believe is the euphemism.

[8sugarsugar]

I was watching BBC and they were interviewing a local Syrian who was under attack by his own gov't. He was screaming, "WHERE IS AMERICA?" He was mad america had stayed out of Syria. Seriously, now America is the bad guy for 'letting' Syrians being massacred by Assad with Russian and Chinese weapons?

He didn't ask, where is Britain, France, or even NATO, he was begging for America to protect him from tyranny.

Very likely the same guy that was dancing in the streets on 9/11 is now begging for the "evil empire" to save himself.

[ironbutt57]

Just look at the aircraft industry in Australia. i'd have an inferiority complex as well....

[falconeasydriver]

You are all as bad as each other, both sides:ugh:

The American military is merely a tool that is used by Washington to further its foreign policy and political aims, you can't level the generalisations on here without looking at the bigger geo-political picture.
That being said, clearly an innocent person died at the hands of an American serviceman/contractor due to a combination of negligence, arrogance or pure chance, in any sense answers will be sought.
The American military in recent history (the last 30-40 years) has undergone a transformation in the sense that the difference in the quality of the best and worst has increased.
Many of the enlisted recruits that end up in basic infantry combat units come from poor backgrounds with a relatively low standard of education. Conversely some of the finest combat units in the world today exist in the US military.
The upshot of all this is that for better or worse, the US military is judged by its worst, rather than its best.
In the instance of what happened, I have a sneaking suspicion that it will come pass that whilst the rules of engagement were followed there may be repercussions in terms of procedures and the application of the ROE.
Was it murder? no, was it manslaughter? probably.
America's biggest problem, when viewed from the context of being outside of the inward looking 50 states is that whilst it preaches Justice and fairness, it's actions say otherwise.
I have been fortunate to have lived in the USA, I have served alongside the US military, you will not find a more generous, noble and honourable group of people, unfortunately they are continually let down by poor leadership, entrenched views and a collective unwillingness to accept that not everyone views the world in the way that they do.

[JAARule]

The closest allowed to a warship is 500yds (http://www.boatus.com/foundation/guide/navigation_38.html). See link for info on boating safety.

In this part of the world, it's be a good idea to stay away from everyone. These guys failed to use common sense and found out what happens as a result. If you don't know the rules of the sea, especially around here, then you shouldn't be on the water. Ignorance is no excuse.

They attempted to remove themselves from the gene-pool in a classic example of Darwinism.

Exactly! Don't ever have them behind you - as the Brits and Canuks found out in both Gulf wars and Afghan. 'Friendly fire'...

Don't let the Brits, Canucks or Aussies stand behind you, either, hey, M5.5...

14–18 August 1944, the ...4th Canadian Armoured Division came under fire six times by RAF Spitfires, resulting in over 57 casualties. ......the yellow smoke used for signalling friendlies was ignored by Spitfire pilots

Canadian artillery units were rushed in to support the retreating American forces ........during the ...Ardennes Offensive. ...the Canadians mistook them for a German column (and) opened fire on them, resulting in 76 American deaths and many as 138 wounded.

...eight RAAF F-51s ...strafed and destroyed a train carrying thousands of American and South Korean soldiers who were mistaken for a North Korean convoy ...resulting (in) 700-1000 casualties.......the Australian pilots had been assured by the United States ...that the area under attack was in North Korean hands

Douglas Bader was also shot down by one of his own mates although by the sounds of this English "gentleman", this is no great surprise.


:rolleyes:

[H2SO4]

It is amazing how some people are so confident that the US Navy did everything by the book. However:-

Dubai police: US navy ship did not warn Indian fishermen | Free Malaysia Today (http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/world/2012/07/20/dubai-police-us-navy-ship-did-not-warn-indian-fishermen/)

Dubai police: US navy ship did not warn Indian fishermen

DUBAI: Dubai’s police chief has rejected US claims that a navy ship warned Indian fishermen to move away from it before firing and killing one of them after they failed to heed the order, media reported on Thursday.
The fisherman died and three others were wounded on Monday when the ship opened fire on their vessel near the port of Jebel Ali off Dubai in the tense waters of the southern Gulf.
The “Indian fishermen were not warned to move away by the US Navy,” General Dahi Khalfan said, according to Khaleej Times daily.
“The crew … told the Dubai police that they did not move towards the ship and instead attempted to avoid it.”
“According to our findings and testimonies of the injured, I believe that they told the truth,” the daily quoted Khalfan as saying.
On Tuesday, India urged the UAE to investigate the shooting.
Khalfan criticised the way the US ship had dealt with the incident, saying it had moved into international waters right after the shooting. Dubai police will deal with the case as a “murder,” he said.
US defence officials said the fishing boat had ignored warnings not to approach the refuelling ship USNS Rappahannock, and that sailors on board the American vessel feared it could pose a threat.
“Since 2000 we’ve been very concerned about small boats,” a defence official said, referring to the year of a deadly suicide bomb attack by Al-Qaeda against the destroyer USS Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden that killed 17 US sailors.
The US Navy has been building up its forces in the oil-rich Gulf region amid mounting tensions with Iran over its controversial nuclear programme.
Tehran has warned it could close the Strait of Hormuz in the southern Gulf if international sanctions begin to bite, potentially disrupting shipping and world oil supplies through the strategic waterway.
Washington has deployed two aircraft carriers to the region – the USS Abraham Lincoln and the USS Enterprise – and doubled its mine-sweeper fleet in the area from four to eight ships.
On Monday, the Pentagon confirmed that it had brought forward the deployment of a third strike group, led by the carrier USS John C Stennis, by four months, in order to further bolster its presence.

- AFP

[8sugarsugar]

enough fighting among the "good guys"

When WWIII breaks out, America, UK, Aus will have each others back against the Islamofascists and those who sell them weapons (Russia and China)

by the way, Russia sent 11 war ships full of Marines to Syria.

Many strategist predict a major war is imminent with Iran-russia-china-syria.

[H2SO4]

Let me quote some of the classics from this thread.

I expect they chose to ignore the repeated warnings, probably in different many different languages over the hailer as well.
Baseless assumption.



Trigger happy....I don't think so, taking what means are necessary in a short time to protect oneself given the nature of terrorism I'd say those clowns were lucky to not have been blown into the next galaxy.

if you take on the US navy by trying to outrun them in your tin boat.how bloody stupid would you have to be.oh that's right they are!
A poor guy lost his life and there is no compassion for him? No thought for his family? Only one of the posters has expressed sorrow at the loss of life while many more chose to insult him. :yuk:




An american naval ship is not a rare thing in the Gulf, and approach one at your peril.Heights of arrogance. Do some Americans believe that they have the right to poke their noses in the affairs of all countries? And expect everyone to make way for their interference?



Now they have force protection on board and very clear well publicized rules of engagement that aren't a secret to anyone. As a boat captain in the Gulf it's your job to be aware of them and abide by the rules..if you don't then you get dead or sunk or both.
And Don you are incorrect..500 yards is the Naval Vessel Protection Zone, requires slow speed and radio contact, and never closer than 100 yards and it's public knowledge. Look it up if you will.Ordinary fishermen can not and should not be expected to go through the Rules of Engagement of the US navy.

The Naval Vessel Protection Zone is a term from the local law of the USA. In case there is no similar international law, other countries and their vessels can not be expected to follow these regulations.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations: (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div6&view=text&node=33:2.0.1.6.34.7&idno=33)

A naval vessel protection zone exists around U.S. naval vessels greater than 100 feet in length overall at all times in the navigable waters of the United States

[maghy]

Dear all,

I have followed this thread for some time now. I am Not us nor aussie, but have benefited from The us support towards Europe thanks to their engagement during the wars that have affected this region during the past century. Having visited The military cemiteries in normandy i have grasped the tribute generations of young man paid for our freedom.

I Just wish the foreingn policies will always be as noble as in those days. It remains clear that despite the fact we may not always agree we keep very deep bonds and Will probably remain allies for many years to come. So let's sometimes agree we disagree and keep an open mind.

As naïve as it may sound, the beginning of lasting peace is respect.

[Flyer1015]

Our US foreign policy is horrendous, and yes I'm saying this as an American. Obama and Romney will be more of the same, only Ron Paul was the candidate to seriously change things around, both in foreign policy and on domestic issues.

[fliion]

LR3,

Point taken, but we are getting lost in semantics ...meaning we were front and center with our allies on DDay and remain in Europe to this day.

This thread was a reasonably clean fight between the Yanks & the Ozzies as a result of another silly post by Ex380 but...

...Mr Machs "friendly fire" post was below the belt...disgraceful.

Over and out from me.

f.

[totempole]

Us yanks stand for freedom and liberty in 'Nam, Korea and the sandpit. We have sacrifice countless lives in our mission. Of course there were collateral damage and this was acceptable in the big scheme of things.

After the USS Cole incident, one cannot be not too careful. There is a price to pay in the pursuit of freedom and liberty. All this hoo ha about this incident is ****ty noise by mischievious anals taking pot shots when they feel they can. 'Nuff said.

[Akali Dal]

Looks like this incident is gonna bring about some mighty big fireworks in this ME forum. Let me lighten this up in response to totem's post wrt to the fight for LIBERTY in Vietnam.


Us yanks stand for freedom and liberty in 'Nam, Korea and the sandpit. We have sacrifice countless lives in our mission.



This is an excerpt from a post by a young Chinese pilot in an earlier PPrune thread somewhere else:

" Ha ha ha...that reminds me of my uncle's story about an American phantom jockey who knocked up a Vietnamese girl during the 60's and told the crying girl " in 9 months' time you will give birth to a lovely baby girl...name her LIBERTY in memory of this wonderful night. God bless America! The poor girl retorted in her halting English " in a few weeks you you you willll willll will have sprouted some some some home home home grown cauliflowers on your frrrront frrront front inch...call it Vietnam Rose. Viva le Vietnam and Uncle Ho! "

[parabellum]

Dubai police: US navy ship did not warn Indian fishermen

DUBAI: Dubai’s police chief has rejected US claims that a navy ship warned Indian fishermen to move away from it before firing and killing one of them after they failed to heed the order, media reported on Thursday.
The fisherman died and three others were wounded on Monday when the ship opened fire on their vessel near the port of Jebel Ali off Dubai in the tense waters of the southern Gulf.
The “Indian fishermen were not warned to move away by the US Navy,” General Dahi Khalfan said, according to Khaleej Times daily.
“The crew … told the Dubai police that they did not move towards the ship and instead attempted to avoid it.”
“According to our findings and testimonies of the injured, I believe that they told the truth,” the daily quoted Khalfan as saying.



Baseless assumption.

[8sugarsugar]

muslims actually believe it is not a sin to lie to non-muslims...

[Turkeyslapper]

...[QUOTE]eight RAAF F-51s ...strafed and destroyed a train carrying thousands of American and South Korean soldiers who were mistaken for a North Korean convoy ...resulting (in) 700-1000 casualties.......the Australian pilots had been assured by the United States ...that the area under attack was in North Korean hands [/QUOTE


Only as good as your command and control :E I am sure over the years everyone (Aussies, yanks, poms, canuks, ruskis, Japs,the seven dwarfs, santas little helpers, the smurfs et al) has experienced or been guilty of a blue on blue incident, well maybe except the French who would have been busy surrendering or running away (tongue in cheek), could have picked a better example though... Anyhoo.....back to shooting up fishing boats!

Cheers

[H2SO4]

I quote excerpts from the news article that i had posted before:

The “Indian fishermen were not warned to move away by the US Navy,” General Dahi Khalfan said, according to Khaleej Times daily.
“The crew … told the Dubai police that they did not move towards the ship and instead attempted to avoid it.”
“According to our findings and testimonies of the injured, I believe that they told the truth,” the daily quoted Khalfan as saying.

So General Khalfan's statement was based on the findings of the Dubai Police i.e. the fishermen were not warned by the US Navy ship.

Looks like some people do not want to accept the truth.

It is amazing how the Americans think that their "Here For Democracy" propaganda still works.:p

The reason why the US has "allies" is to use them as buffer states. So the idea is "we will get you before you move past our allies and get to us". What the Americans do is all based on their selfish interest which is then distorted and presented by their propaganda machinery as the "Struggle For Democracy." In return for protection, the so called "allies" are expected to present their a$$^s to the Americans for pleasure. WIN-WIN? ;) /:ouch:??

The "allies" are expected to mortgage their foreign policies to the US in return for protection. So the US foreign policy actually carries extra weight because of its backing by the "allies." So it is not like the Americans don't get anything in return for keeping an arm around their bitc**s. ;)/:ouch:??

Regarding WW2, British policy was to use France as a buffer state which was a partial failure. US policy was to use Britain as a buffer state which was a success. It wasn't L.O.V.E. that was guiding US policies. Just plain self-interest. :E

THE WORLD IS A GIANT PRISON WITH MASTERS AND BI^^HES!!! :}

[The Outlaw]

H2S04...

So...let see here...

You are basing your arguments on a Malaysian newspaper article which in turn quoted a statement made by the Dubai police which in turn was given by two locals and 3 Indians....and in ALL of that you have ascertained that this is the truth? This is the same police that blame the expat involved in the traffic accident because " If you had not been stopped at the red light then this local gentlemen would not have hit you from behind ", one "classic" you failed to quote was that locals can NEVER be wrong". How selective of you.

I guess it must be so, because newspapers NEVER post anything remotely untrue or biased to sensationalization to sell newspapers. I bet you watch Jerry Springer and think all Americans are like the guests! Watch much CNN?

You say that a "poor fisherman" should not be expected to know the rules of the US Military? How about the rules of the Iranian Military then...they have been around the gulf since time began and I'll venture a guess that the locals don't get within sight of them. I'll just use your logic then when I meander my aircraft into North Korean airspace...see what happens...because surely I can't be expected to know the ROE with the North Korean defenses...hell, I can't ever understand their language!

Hope you're on board!

[PacWest]

I have even received threatening PMs from Americans.

:D

How do you know they were Americans?

More than likely any PM's (if any, that is) were from the 'Ozzies' telling you to shut the @@## UP. After all, who needs to be ass-ociated with such a supercilious fool...

`

[parabellum]

Looks like some people do not want to accept the truth.


You gave only one side, the Dubai police and the Indian fishermen, as reported in a newspaper, how on earth can you say that you have posted the 'truth'?

The Gulf has been a dangerous place continuously since the Iraq - Iran war of the eighties.

Contractors are usually ex servicemen who will usually have a lot more relevant experience and training than your average on board sailor.

[BeCareful]

Just imagine what the police chief would have to say if these poor saps encountered Mr. R2D2 (or MK15 Phalanx CIWS) found on Navy warships as opposed to .50 cal found on this oiler.

"We have reports of a boat missing off Jebel Ali with 5 people aboard..."

Here's the land version of the Phalanx in Iraq:

PHALANX GUN IN ACTION IN IRAQ - YouTube


50-75 rounds per second or 3000-4500 rounds per minute.

I just hope people learn that just because they may be able to get away with this kind of crap on SZR, it ain't gonna fly with a naval warship. The survivors were lucky they only got peppered with a mounted .50 cal. Had they encountered R2D2 (Phalanx CIWS), they would have gotten vaporized.

[BananaAir]

I'm sure that there is a run on the books "The Rules of the Road at Sea" and "25 Ways to Have Your Vessel End Up As Balsa Wood on the High Seas" in the Middle East fishing community. Can't imagine that there will be too many boats attempting to approach any grey colored ship in future.

[H2SO4]

You are basing your arguments on a Malaysian newspaper article which in turn quoted a statement made by the Dubai police which in turn was given by two locals and 3 Indians....and in ALL of that you have ascertained that this is the truth?

Some people have got to start respecting the sovereignty of other countries. Considering that the crime took place with in the jurisdiction of Dubai Police, their chief's statement carries a lot of weight.

Now that Dubai Police has confirmed that the crew on board the US Navy ship acted in a negligent manner, some people have started maligning the police itself!!! :D

In case anybody has issues with Malaysian newspapers, some other media houses have also published the same statement by General Khalfan.

Shooting case being probed, says Dhahi - Khaleej Times (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/kt-article-display-1.asp?xfile=data/nationgeneral/2012/July/nationgeneral_July261.xml&section=nationgeneral)

Gulf Times ? Qatar?s top-selling English daily newspaper - India (http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=519910&version=1&template_id=40&parent_id=22)

I guess it must be so, because newspapers NEVER post anything remotely untrue or biased to sensationalization to sell newspapers.

So after Dubai Police, newspapers are to be discredited too? :hmm:

Everybody is liar except ............(?)

I bet you watch Jerry Springer and think all Americans are like the guests!

Why would i think that? It at all i had to generalize, i would say that Americans are great people. :)

You gave only one side, the Dubai police and the Indian fishermen, as reported in a newspaper, how on earth can you say that you have posted the 'truth'?

Yes! I did give only one side of the story. The side that was being deliberately left out! One sided stories were also being given before i posted that article. Many comments containing assumptions, false information and racial type-casting were doing the rounds before that. I just gave the other side.

We all have a small proportion of "strange ones" who don't quite get it.

Get what? That the unjust actions of some people are not to be questioned? And that if you do question these acts, you will be dubbed as a "strange one" and ridiculed?

Everybody, come say HELLO to the saviors of FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY. :rolleyes:

[tbaylx]

Call it what you want, but approach any military naval ship in the gulf, be it USN or otherwise and you are going to get a reaction that will not end well for the approaching ship.

Always been tension in the gulf, as long as they have idiots that like to spout off about wiping other countries off the face of the map, then there always will be and fishing boats would be best to take that into account. Small consolation prize saying " well 7 days, the dubai police chief and H2SO4 think I had the right to navigate wherever i please, too bad i'm all full of 1/2' holes". Amazing how most days the USN and the fishing boats manage just fine to avoid each other and then they just randomly open fire without any warning whatsoever on a boat according to the Dubai Police.

If i was force protection, i'd rather err on the side of protecting my ship than explain why i got a bunch of my fellow sailors killed cause i didn't stop the fishing boat that ignored warnings and then blew a hole in the side of my ship.

Don't know what countries all you monday morning quarterback critics come from, but hell yeah if there is a country that i'd want to champion freedom and democracy then the US would be somewhere near the top of the list..and before you jump all over that, no i'm not from there, just appreciate what they do for the rest of the civilized world most of the time.

[wetbehindear]

@ Kennettheking "As a 'superpower' the US should hold itself to a higher standard than this......with power comes responsibility. And, yup, if they going go around killing people at will, then we may just as well be protected by the Chinese.....same thing isn't it?"

Yup you are right. Nobody should come close to a yank vessel.


"Without providing prior notice of the exercise, officers on Saratoga woke the enlisted Sea Sparrow missile team and directed them to conduct the simulated attack. According to U.S. Navy, certain members of the missile firing team were not told that the exercise was a drill, rather than an actual event.
As the drill progressed, the missile system operator used language to indicate he was preparing to fire a live missile, but due to the absence of standard terminology, it was failed to appreciate the significance of the terms used and the requests made. Specifically, the Target Acquisition System operator issued the command "arm and tune", terminology the console operators understood to require arming of the missiles in preparation for actual firing. The officers supervising the drill did not realize that "arm and tune" signified a live firing and ignored two separate requests from the missile system operator to clarify whether the launch order was an exercise. As a result, shortly after midnight on the morning of 2 October, Saratoga fired two Sea Sparrow missiles at Muavenet. The missiles struck in the bridge, destroying it and the Combat Information Center, killing five of the ship's officers and injuring 22."

On 29 September 1994, some of the Turkish Navy sailors serving aboard the Muavenet instituted legal action against the United States government. The action encompassed two wrongful death claims and 299 personal injury claims. On 20 February 1997, the U.S. Court of Appeals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Court_of_Appeals) affirmed a lower court ruling against them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_(DM_357)

This was the navy has been to two world wars. In all fairness there was at least one person with a clear understanding what he/she were doing which conspicuously (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&ei=VIkPULKTH8i2hAfe9oCoDw&ved=0CFcQvwUoAQ&q=conspicuously&spell=1) missing at USS Vincennes (CG-49) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)) in 1988.


Sadly no compensation has been offered.


Which USN Admiral has been quoted as saying " we had to simplifie and rewrite our manuals 3 times in a decade"

Then was it a coincidence that bold faced complex words begun to appear on comic book pages.

[drive73]

H2,
You do realize the US is not just sailing around the gulf on their own. They are there for the countries who don't have the ability to keep the shipping routes open! Nothing will come of this because the leaders of the UAE, Bahrain, Oman, Saudi, Kuwait all have a vested interest in the US military watching over their income and standard of life. Don't get me wrong the US has vast interests too, but let's not pretend the US is just sailing around in others waters with no prior invite.. Like some other countries out there.
Wet.
You sight a couple of incidents over a decade old, but fail to mention the thousands of incidents that were handled properly. And you know there are issues like these everyday around the world that go well. When your dealing with humans things will inevitably go wrong from time to time. An operation as large as the US military will make mistakes and this may or may not be one, the investigation will determine. The difference is the US will admit and will change procedure if they find there was a mistake made. They may not publicly admit the problem, but internally procedures will be changed if possible, they don't like this kind of publicity.

[wetbehindear]

@fliion "If you are in fact Australian, may your family rest a little more secure tonight knowing that American tax dollars are paying for that new 2500 man USMC base in Northern Australia as counterweight to Chinese posturing in the Pacific.

No thanks necessary...but a tipped cap...very much appreciated."



Come the climate change who will be producing grain to feed the world?

Are you ready to take your cap into your hand and approach with humility?

[PukinDog]

Ex A380
I am amazed at the vitriol I have received for expressing a view point on my position. I have even received threatening PMs from Americans.


Oh come on, you aren't really amazed. It's the type of response you want. Members of the Peanut Gallery always seek some sort of recognition, even if it is vitriol.

My theory of why there's so much America-obsession laced critisism among the ranks of Ozzies, Brits, and Kiwis is that there was so much young American GI DNA deposited (and willingly accepted) into their domestic gene pools during the 1941-45 war years that now courses through their veins and they live with the frustration of not being able to just come right out and say or obtain secretly-harbored desires; to own a Colt .45 if they want to, to grab a Maccas Big Mac and eat it while driving an SUV and not care a rat's butt what the neighbours think, and to be able to look up at the moon and say to themselves "Yup, we went there..a bunch of times".

So my fellow Americans, hold a smidgen of pity for the holier-than-thou when they go into their "We are responsible citizens of the world and are a blessing for the unwashed when we are abroad, not you, you provincials" or "We know more about your country than you do" modes. Don't get mad when they lash out from the cognitive dissonance created by the American DNA in their systems because it's actually a form of attention-seeking and compensation for the self-loathing any bastard child would feel. So instead of getting mad, just remember that no matter whether at home or in whatever corner of the world they try to retreat to, Coca-Cola and the moon are there too, laughing at them for you.

[BeCareful]

H2, all due respect to General Khalfan, but when you say you interviewed one side only, and you believe their version without so much as taking into account that there are two sides, let alone looking into the other side... you just lost all credibility. But then again, what the hell can you expect? It was a habibi-owned boat, and they complained after being stupid that the trigger happy Yanks opened up on them with a .50 cal. Do you really expect Dubai police to EVER call locals on their bullsh*t antics especially when the other side is not local? PUHLEEZ.... can't have a habibi lose face.

And of course, US Navy is a bunch of cowboys who randomly shoot poor innocent fishermen in sovereign territorial waters of a host country. Right... yeah, that's it.

Ever served in the US military? Have a slightest clue about the rules of engagement? Have a clue how many American servicemen died due to political correctness when it comes to ROE? If not, all due respect, but go back to whining about EK/EY.

[ferris]

I'd rather everyone took away something from this incident that may be relevant to THEM.

Listen out on guard when toodling around the Gulf. You never know when they might be hailing YOU :ok:

[Turkeyslapper]

<P><FONT face=Arial> </P>
<P><FONT face=Arial>[QUOTE]My theory of why there's so much America-obsession laced critisism among the ranks of Ozzies, Brits, and Kiwis is that there was so much young American GI DNA deposited (and willingly accepted) into their domestic gene pools during the 1941-45 war years that now courses through their veins and they live with the frustration of not being able to just come right out and say or obtain secretly-harbored desires; to own a Colt .45 if they want to, to grab a Maccas Big Mac and eat it while driving an SUV and not care a rat's butt what the neighbours think, and to be able to look up at the moon and say to themselves "Yup, we went there..a bunch of times".<BR><BR>So my fellow Americans, hold a smidgen of pity for the holier-than-thou when they go into their "We are responsible citizens of the world and are a blessing for the unwashed when we are abroad, not you, you provincials" or "We know more about your country than you do" modes. Don't get mad when they lash out from the cognitive dissonance created by the American DNA in their systems because it's actually a form of attention-seeking and compensation for the self-loathing any bastard child would feel. So instead of getting mad, just remember that no matter whether at home or in whatever corner of the world they try to retreat to, Coca-Cola and the moon are there too, laughing at them for you</FONT></P>

Touche! Have to admit that made me smile a bit.

Still, keep looking backwards at how great you once were and enjoy your trillions of debt (how much of that is to the Chinese), awesome healthcare system, gun control and yada yada yada

Cheers

[PukinDog]

Still, keep looking backwards at how great you once were and enjoy your trillions of debt (how much of that is to the Chinese), awesome healthcare system, gun control and yada yada yada

Cheers


No worries mate, I will. Meanwhile, you keep looking forward to your government's daily dose of "We must have higher carbon/electricity/water/petrol taxes or we're doomed!" propoganda that attempts to make you feel guilty for simply being alive and convinced something as mundane as running a clothes dryer is really a destructive affront to nature, 10AUD beers, and your still-undecided questions as to 1) whether the archaic notion of "royalty" located half a world away still matters and 2) How many surfers must a shark eat before we stop trying to merely shoo it away with helicopters to appease the Greenies and go ahead and kill the damn thing like we should have done in the first place?

Cheers

[H2SO4]

@drive73

Don't get me wrong the US has vast interests too, but let's not pretend the US is just sailing around in others waters with no prior invite..

Yup. I have an idea of how those "invites" are obtained.

When those "invites" don't come along, the absence of democracy in these un-inviting countries suddenly becomes an issue. Suddenly the dictators cease to be legitimate leaders. All of a sudden former allies turn into foes. And then lies are spread around to justify illegal military campaigns.:D

On the other hand, sky is the limit for the ambitions of a friendly dictator. They are allowed to loot their own countries with impunity. Even genocides are looked over.;)

The events of these days actually show that for some people, a friendly dictator was much more desirable than a democratically elected government that disagrees with them. That is because the dictator was letting them in to his country for some "snacks" while the democratic government wants to keep the "snacks" for its own citizens.

____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ :oh:

The thief won't kill the watchman if he leaves the door open for him. If not then .......... :ouch:

@BeCareful

all due respect to General Khalfan, but when you say you interviewed one side only, and you believe their version without so much as taking into account that there are two sides, let alone looking into the other side... you just lost all credibility.

Where did i say that i am considering only one side of the story? If somebody is providing a point of view, is it ok to assume that he/she has decided not to consider other angles of approach?

Anyways, from your point of view the list of "the discredited" should now include:

1) Dubai Police
2) Various newspapers
3) The fishermen who were on the scene
4) H2SO4

Who else?

Or maybe it will be lesser work to just fill in the blank below. :rolleyes:

Everybody is liar except ............(?)

[drive73]

H2,

I think the point is the Dubai police chief only spoke to one side and all of your various articles thereafter represent the chiefs investigation, or lack there of. I also know its pretty rare for the US military to just go around blowing boats out of the water fo no reason.
You would be really screaming if the US just went out and destroyed every country you perceive to be bad. You and I both know things are far more complicated than that. Again the US like any country will look after the interests of themselves first. Australia doesnt go out and work for thailands behalf. Humans whether in government or in general will work first for there own behaves and if it's not too inconvenient or doesnt affect there life's too much will then tackle others problems. Human nature is human nature doesn't matter where your from that's the way it is and will be.

[boredcounter]

Many cruise liners now carry 'Security warning KEEP AWAY XXX METERS' on large banners for all to see. Regardless of the language spoken and any maritime law applicable, in any stretch of water it hopefully reads 'board my vessel and you will fall overboard' Armed only with 'fire hoses' and to make potential threats think twice.

In any language, big and grey and flying any military power flag, you will be fired on if they feel threatened and you do not answer their call.

There are many ways to attract the attention of a warship, VHF or not if you need assistance, they will assist.

Warships, support vessel or Battleships tend to be easy to spot.

Right or wrong, it is a bit like chancing your luck when you hear 'Armed Police' stop running!'

[BeCareful]

Did I call them liars?

But let's take it from the top, shall we?

Survivors - in this part of the world, would an Indian EVER admit to a mistake that cost someone their life? How about the two locals? Would they say:

a) we were goofing off and played chicken with them by trying to get right in front of them.... a'la SZR, but on the water.

b) why should we pay attention, and in any case, what's the worst thing they could do to us in our own country?

c) They never warned us. We were peaceful fishermen and they lit us up without any warning and for no reason.

How about Dubai Police Chief and the justice system in this lovely paradise...

If you're parked at the red light and a local hits you (expat) from behind, I'll give you two guesses whose fault it's automatically gonna be, and it ain't gonna be the boy's in white dish-dash.

Justice system in Dubai? How about the IKEA case? 1 month for damn near killing two expats over a damn table? Let's say the situations were reversed and it was Canadians beating up a pregnant Emirati woman and her husband? Shall we say... 20 years minimum? Firing squad? Nothing would surprise me.

This Police Chief goes and interviews the survivors and solely based on a shot-up boat, one dead guy and the local testimony, he is CONVINCED they are right.

Newspapers? Let's see... a Police Chief issues a statement and they all carry it over. They're doing their job and reporting. Did you notice a statement by the US Navy last week with illustrated positions and timeline of events along with position of the boat as this tragedy unfolded? It fit the suicide bomber profile, and I'm sure you'll agree there is plenty of precedent in the past decade of similar events, mostly on land, but also at sea - remember USS Cole?

Now... the easiest thing in the world is to sit back, just how we are now, and beat this topic to death having all the time in the world to sip on a cold one, have dinner, go to the movies, come back and decide you'll write your reply in the morning, etc. Put yourself in the shoes of the Rappahannock's skipper. What do you do? You have a boat doing 25 knots or so charging right at you... not behind you (think basic rules of the road), but straight at you and ahead of you - per their statements. The contact is not responding to anything and keeps charging at you. This is all the information you have, and now you have to make a decision... in this day and age of suicide bombers, precedent of such actions, geographical part of the world.... what decision do you make?

Before you answer that... what decision do you as a pilot (assuming you are one) make or hope to make every time? I sure hope it's the most conservative and the safest course of action for your aircraft and your crew. Well, the Rappahannock did exactly that.

Now, perhaps the crew hasn't driven on SZR to see that it's equivalent to playing Grand Theft Auto 4 except in real life.

Also, why isn't there a major outcry of the UAE government about the US Navy shooting? Why isn't the UAE government kicking out all American military out of the UAE in protest, like they did with the Canadians.

Something tells me they know what really happened, and it would be a major loss of face... so for now, it'll get settled with "apologies, expressions of regret, etc" and that's about it, and I think that'll be all there is to say about it.

Was it a tragic accident? Yes. Are there guilty parties to this? I think so... Do I think it's the US Navy? Based on experience and what I've seen and heard so far, I sincerely doubt it. Will we ever get an Emirati and an Indian to admit they also made a tragic mistake and exercised a huge lapse of judgment? I'll let you answer that one.

[TangoUniform]

Hey Pukindog, VFA143?

[8sugarsugar]

Martin Bryant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bryant)

Remember this ******? The aussie that killed 35 skips?

ANYWAY.........

Be proud of your penal colony and don't let other countries make you feel insecure.

[8sugarsugar]

why is the word w*anker automatically blocked? it must be derogatory

[drive73]

Ex 380,
That has what to do with this topic? Should I post the kangaroo deaths on Australian roads to show why aussies beat up Indians?

[8sugarsugar]

I only feel insecure when countries with overwhelming fire power go into other sovereign states without permission and use that power.

of course you do, but UAE invited and is very happy United States Navy is present.

You seem to be the only one that isn't happy. I don't even know why you are so upset, it doesn't personally effect you one bit. It actually benefits you. It makes your EK job stable. Especially be happy if you have children in school or own property in Dubai. Be glad Boeing and Raytheon are building missile defense systems. UAE can't/couldn't defend itself alone from Iran or Iraq back in Gulf War I.

UAE isn't even your country. You are a guest in the UAE. Only people that have any right to voice their opinion on UAE/US relations are the Emiratis.

[8sugarsugar]

and if you don't like American gun laws, don't bid US flights or visit....simple

Stop stressing over it

[drive73]

Yes ex 380, because people who go on mass killing sprees obey laws:ugh: ask Norway how that gun law worked out.:ok: I imagine if everybody in the theatre was packing a weapon, there is a good chance he would have directed his craziness in another direction..
And most Americans agree that going into Iraq was b.s.. We will be paying for it for a hundred years... I just hope we learned, but skeptical of the short memories people have these days..

[8sugarsugar]

isn't Iraq's economy booming under its new Democracy?

[Reinhardt]

This post is appropriate to ME forum, as it contains information about the area we are living in - and flying over...

That replenishement boat USNS Rappahannock (T-AO-204) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USNS_Rappahannock_(T-AO-204)) (from not the real US Navy, but instead something like the British Royal Auxilairy Fleet, support vessels) could have been looking like a civilian ship in the Gulf haze (yes, 44°C, not the best visibility conditions out at sea, for those who sail) and so those poor fishermen may not have been immediately aware of what was going to happen.
Lights and horns are one thing, sometimes not so efficient against some boats with a sleeping crew (I used to be in the Navy and have some personal memories) Best thing is still shooting .50 or 20 mm guns in front of the converging traffic. It usually makes huge geysers, this time noticiable even to the most idiotic crew member.
No need to shoot immediately on target.. but we all know, or should know, how trigger-happy those Yanks are (in fact, both terms are becoming synonimous)
Just ask the Brits in Iraq, the Canucks in Afghanistan, the French inhabitants of Calais bombed because USAF did not want to come back to England with bombs, and for those who say it's the price other nations have to pay to be "protected" just look at
USN F-14 shoots down USAF RF-4C | Jetcareers (http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/usn-f-14-shoots-down-usaf-rf-4c.121522/)
1994 Black Hawk shootdown incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident)
so they even manage to do it by themselves...
Yes, every Air Force or Army does make mistakes, but it's just those ones which are becoming too common - something to do with their gun culture, their ultra-violent movies with no talking, just shooting ?? ! ??

Anyway, a good thread, as we all have various opinions...

[drive73]

Ex,

Look at the stats for states with concealed weapons laws. Crime in states with free gun laws and large gun ownership have less violent crime. Violent crime deaths in the US are actually down. Again, your missing the point. People who do these kinds of things don't care about your gun laws, drug laws, theft laws, they kill people, which last time I checked is against the law.
The great thing about stats is you can find one to back any argument. At some point logic needs to come into play. Do you think someone who is willing to kill some one is going to let a little ink on a piece of paper stop him?
The politicians are going to use this as a way to manipulate and pander for votes, it is going to be at the forefront of all political rhetoric now, because it evokes high emotional reaction and is easy to use as a distraction from economic and other important issues they don't want to deal with. Humans are easy to manipulate using fear, whether it be from a 1 - 37000000 chance of being shot in a movie theatre or losing the right to bear arms. Disregarding the 1 - 3000 chance of dying in a care accident. People just don't think rationally, we are emotional and politicians know it. Look up the odds of dying in a violent crime vs driving and you will understand what I'm talking about.
Rein,
I notice you dig hard to find the poor performances, but leave out two very recent rescues of Iranian fishermen by those trigger happy yanks...:ugh:
Last time I checked there was still wars going on, so I would expect there will be more issues with friendly fire as this isn't just Americans going around shooting their guns in the air at everything that moves. War isn't perfect, could you please sight a war where allies didn't kill each other accidentally.

[sittingidly]

A fishing vessel attacked by a naval vessel from a distant country? Imagine that happening off the coast of say... any other country in the world?

The Navy was definitely 'trigger-happy' and there is no doubt they are seeking some excuse to turn this region of the world (as someone put it) ''into a big glass crater''. That is the mentality.

The USN has no right to attack any vessel approaching it in International waters unless it poses a threat to the safety of their ship. This was not the case. It's rarely the case with the USN. Remember the fabricated story about the 'Gulf of Tonkin' attack on a USN vessel? Well... it was the excuse to start the Vietnam War which by the way is still causing death, disease and harm to the vietnamese people 50 years later. The attack never happened if you are unaware of that fact.

The USA has exceeded the tolerance of most nations around the world. That worries me. They just don't comprehend that the world has changed and the 'good-will' of nations towards their antics has evaporated. Sadly they still have the most powerful military and although the US media pretends it is full of 'heroes', it is not. The US military machine is full of people unable to find employment otherwise.

(abu ghraib, the specifically designed Guantanamo Bay torture prison, secret CIA torture locations, drone attacks on innocent civilians, phosphorous weapon use that is outlawed by the UN, outlandish assertions of WMD's for nations not sympathetic to the US cause, Israeli control and influence of policy, etc.) The place is a mess on all accounts. Let's not even get into the Financial Industry which is intimately involved in the destruction of the USA.

Whether it was 'Beaker' killing people in a movie theatre, or 1 in 7 forced to be on food stamps, or an impotent manufacturing industry (other than weapons), or Health Care, or equality, or obesity, or whatever should be most important to human-beings.. it has all gone all wrong. Every six months there is another horrifying instance of someone 'losing it' and going on a killing rampage in the USA> Yet the politicians use the event to appear sympathetic and compassionate... WHILE DOING NOTHING... to address the underlying causes. I guess that is predictable when Congress is purchased by those who have the financial resources. When did common sense and morality leave the otherwise enviable attributes of Americans? Does it just boil down to ignorance and manipulation of the masses?

As far as past history, the USA only entered WW2 (the most morally justified war since 1776) more than 2 years after the rest of the world was fighting. The bloody Russians did more to win that war than the USA and by a long shot. But since that is politically incorrect in the minds of people who believe Hollywood BS, I probably shouldn't mention it.

Do I have to mention the 10+ unjustified wars that the USA has started in the past 60 years to prove my point? Funny how they never seem to win any of them in spite of the best technology and a culture designed to promote that industry.

War is coming to the ME, you can bet the farm on that one. And that should concern everyone still living there.

[JAARule]

it was 'Beaker' killing people in a movie theatre

Do you mean that orange-haired guy in the muppet show who works in the lab? It was him???

[Snookie]

Sittinggidly,

As an american, i agree with all aspects of your argument. Unfortunately, it is a continous trend that is spiralling downhill fast.

I just want to say that it is a failure of politicians that lead us to the ongoing death spiral of wars and mass killings. Regardless, the people that suffer are the poor and downtrodden who have no other option but to join the military in an effort to get out of their current environment.

Regardless, i am also a proud American that realizes that opportunities of life in America is very free and very enjoyable. As numerous people have told me, Americans seem to be very friendly and very open. I have lived throughout the world, and i would never want to live anywhere else. You have no idea how many cabin crew tell me why are you in Dubai if you are from the states. Exact quote from a sales person from DG Sharaff..." i wish i can go to america."

I am a little bias but i recently read an article that america came in first in a rank of places that people want to move to for a better life. We must be doing something right.

thank you,

snookie

[H2SO4]

@BeCareful

I am quoting excerpts from your posts on this thread.

It was a habibi-owned boat, and they complained after being stupid that the trigger happy Yanks opened up on them with a .50 cal. Do you really expect Dubai police to EVER call locals on their bullsh*t antics especially when the other side is not local? PUHLEEZ.... can't have a habibi lose face.

Anyone who lives in the UAE knows that Indians and Emiratis will NEVER EVER admit to being wrong... can't lose face... let's not even go into Indian competence... remember habibi, cheaper is better.

in this part of the world, would an Indian EVER admit to a mistake that cost someone their life? How about the two locals?

Will we ever get an Emirati and an Indian to admit they also made a tragic mistake and exercised a huge lapse of judgment? I'll let you answer that one.

Do you have something personal against the Emiratis, the Indians or anybody else? If not then why the insults and the stereo-typing? In case it is really possible for you to generalize about large population sets, then maybe you are on the cusp of a break-through in the field of cultural anthropology. Congratulations!!! :rolleyes:

and I'm sure you'll agree there is plenty of precedent in the past decade of similar events, mostly on land, but also at sea - remember USS Cole?

So just because there was an attack on a US vessel, innocent people are to be killed on mere suspicion to prevent a recurrence?

Going by that logic, the next time a policeman sees a guy with a gun, he should put a bullet in the head of that guy without issuing any warning or making attempts to ascertain his intentions. Or maybe even the possession of a weapon is not a condition!:

Man shot in terror hunt was innocent young Brazilian | UK news | The Observer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jul/24/july7.uksecurity3)
Man shot in terror hunt was innocent young Brazilian

Do you see a pattern? Aggressive countries meddling into the affairs of other countries, getting hit back by terrorists and then innocent people losing their lives due to an undesirable state of heightened tensions. The existence of the present state of tension can be attributed in big part to the interference of US in the affairs of other countries. Why should the whole world have to pay the price for that?

Also, why isn't there a major outcry of the UAE government about the US Navy shooting? Why isn't the UAE government kicking out all American military out of the UAE in protest, like they did with the Canadians.

Because then UAE would be added to the list of the "Axis of Evil" and the arm twisting would start. :oh:

I just hope people learn that just because they may be able to get away with this kind of crap on SZR, it ain't gonna fly with a naval warship. The survivors were lucky they only got peppered with a mounted .50 cal. Had they encountered R2D2 (Phalanx CIWS), they would have gotten vaporized.

Jingoism and glorification of death are some of the prime reasons for the dilution of moral code in the US foreign policy. People with a somewhat similar mind set as yours have risen to powerful positions and that is a cause of concern.

[H2SO4]

Again the US like any country will look after the interests of themselves first. Australia doesnt go out and work for thailands behalf. Humans whether in government or in general will work first for there own behaves and if it's not too inconvenient or doesnt affect there life's too much will then tackle others problems. Human nature is human nature doesn't matter where your from that's the way it is and will be.

If that is the case then the Americans must say "we are going into that country to get us some juice" rather than "America will ensure justice and freedom for the people of ........" They should bluntly say that "yes, 5% of the world's population is not satisfied with 25% of the world's resources and we need to snatch even more from the poor of this world." That way at least your "allies" get to make an honest choice between savagery and self-restraint and they don't end up with blood on their hands too. :{

Should I post the kangaroo deaths on Australian roads to show why aussies beat up Indians?

What's that now?

[PukinDog]

What always amused me about Dubai was how you have a long-running Ozzie/Brit/Kiwi expat community who think they own the joint because it used to be claimed by the Brits (along with everything else between Burma and the Med).

To hear any of these same UAE-living expats lambasting U.S. foreign policy or shedding crocodile tears over this unfortunate fisherman while they're busy living and working (and thereby supporting) a city that was built on the dead bodies of and maintained-by the right-less, quasi-slave, labor force of Indians, Bangladeshis, and Pakistanis that make their lives there possible is the height of hypocricy.

I guess in between bragging to their friends back home about how little they have to pay Philipino housekeepers and the stopovers in Thailand where the girls are cheap, this is where they become blog-educated "experts" on the evils of America and why it shouldn't be out in the world.

Meanwhile of course, we're stealing their women back home because we do what they aren't used to, like holding a door open for them and not making them buy their own dinner.

[parabellum]

Do you have something personal against the Emiratis, the Indians or anybody else? If not then why the insults and the stereo-typing? In case it is really possible for you to generalize about large population sets, then maybe you are on the cusp of a break-through in the field of cultural anthropology. Congratulations!!! :rolleyes:


What utter crap! Every one of those quotes you refer to is right on the money, as anyone who has lived and worked in that area will know, time to come down off your cloud H2SO4.

[Prince Rupert]

How about Dubai Police Chief and the justice system in this lovely paradise...

If you're parked at the red light and a local hits you (expat) from behind, I'll give you two guesses whose fault it's automatically gonna be, and it ain't gonna be the boy's in white dish-dash.

Justice system in Dubai? How about the IKEA case? 1 month for damn near killing two expats over a damn table? Let's say the situations were reversed and it was Canadians beating up a pregnant Emirati woman and her husband? Shall we say... 20 years minimum? Firing squad? Nothing would surprise me.

This Police Chief goes and interviews the survivors and solely based on a shot-up boat, one dead guy and the local testimony, he is CONVINCED they are right.

And you guys make a bee line to work in that ****ty God forsaken sandy dump?

The USN has no right to attack any vessel approaching it in International waters unless it poses a threat to the safety of their ship. This was not the case. It's rarely the case with the USN. Remember the fabricated story about the 'Gulf of Tonkin' attack on a USN vessel? Well... it was the excuse to start the Vietnam War which by the way is still causing death, disease and harm to the vietnamese people 50 years later. The attack never happened if you are unaware of that fact.

No wonder the yanks are hated the world over. Akali Dal's post really got me laughing to tears....

Akali Dal
*
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: India
Posts: 87
Looks like this incident is gonna bring about some mighty big fireworks in this ME forum. Let me lighten this up in response to totem's post wrt to the fight for LIBERTY in Vietnam.


Quote:
Us yanks stand for freedom and liberty in 'Nam, Korea and the sandpit. We have sacrifice countless lives in our mission.


This is an excerpt from a post by a young Chinese pilot in an earlier PPRuNe thread somewhere else:

Quote:
" Ha ha ha...that reminds me of my uncle's story about an American phantom jockey who knocked up a Vietnamese girl during the 60's and told the crying girl " in 9 months' time you will give birth to a lovely baby girl...name her LIBERTY in memory of this wonderful night. God bless America! The poor girl retorted in her halting English " in a few weeks you you you willll willll will have sprouted some some some home home home grown cauliflowers on your frrrront frrront front inch...call it Vietnam Rose. Viva le Vietnam and Uncle Ho! "
Last edited by Akali Dal; 22nd Jul 2012 at 15:11.

[BeCareful]

H2:

Do you have something personal against the Emiratis, the Indians or anybody else? If not then why the insults and the stereo-typing? In case it is really possible for you to generalize about large population sets, then maybe you are on the cusp of a break-through in the field of cultural anthropology. Congratulations!!!

Not a thing, and I'm not insulting them either... I just call spade a spade. Once you come to understand the mentality here in the region and accept the fact that this is simply how they are, you adjust your expectations and go from there.

So just because there was an attack on a US vessel, innocent people are to be killed on mere suspicion to prevent a recurrence?

How do you prove someone is innocent if they're ignoring warnings, they're charging full speed at you, and you have 2 minutes to prove them innocent? 2 words my man - USS Cole. May it never happen again...

I hope that sailor that opened fire gets a medal and a pat on the back. Yes, he's gonna feel like sh*t for gunning down a NOW-PROVEN innocent, but at that point, how could he have known? He's done his job. Or wait... are you saying that suicide bombings never occur in these parts of the world or that the pattern exhibited by that boat didn't resemble that of a suicide bomber?

To put it in context, how many times have you had some maniac on SZR approach you within inches of your bumper flashing lights at you while you're driving 120-130 or even 140. See, that's the same mentality that ended up catching the receiving end of a .50 cal.

But just curious, why don't you tell me how you would have handled this if no matter what you tried to do, you're getting no response... how could you have gotten a guarantee that this boat wouldn't go BANGGG once alongside the Rappahannock?

Because then UAE would be added to the list of the "Axis of Evil" and the arm twisting would start.

Are you serious?!? Axis of Evil?!?! How many times you got dropped on your head as a baby?! :)

Oh, and I love your conclusion about 'glorification of death.' It's a matter of perspective really... whose death? I don't want to see a single American die just to be politically correct in his/her actions. We lost plenty of young men and women to politically correct actions... it's tough luck that thanks to those who indeed glorify death i.e. suicide bombers and terrorists an innocent person was killed. But let's face the reality - stupidity kills. Stupidity has always killed and always will kill. I just hope there are lessons learned here.

[H2SO4]

Not a thing, and I'm not insulting them either... I just call spade a spade. Once you come to understand the mentality here in the region and accept the fact that this is simply how they are, you adjust your expectations and go from there.

I hope that sailor that opened fire gets a medal and a pat on the back.

"Understanding" the mentality, eh?;)

A...hooooooooik!:yuk:

Are you serious?!? Axis of Evil?!?! How many times you got dropped on your head as a baby?!

aaaaww.....Why did you have to say that? You really hurt my feelings. Just because you were born a genius, does it mean that you have to insult us lesser mortals? :{

Oh, and I love your conclusion about 'glorification of death.' It's a matter of perspective really... whose death? I don't want to see a single American die just to be politically correct in his/her actions. We lost plenty of young men and women to politically correct actions...

Hmmmm. Well, maybe there is a reason why it is called political correctness. War is merely a means of achieving political goals. Some people even say that war is in effect politics. When you say that you don't want to lose an "American" life for the sake of political correctness but it is ok to kill "other" people on mere suspicion and without following the set procedures, then you are in effect saying that "yes, we are trigger happy, and selfish, and hypocrites." And when others get that message, then it becomes very difficult for even the most powerful military to win a war.

it's tough luck that thanks to those who indeed glorify death i.e. suicide bombers and terrorists an innocent person was killed.

How come only non-American civilians have to pay a price for that tough luck? Is it just plain "tough luck" that the young Iraqi generation will not get quality education? Is it just plain "tough luck" that small children are left without parents?, most of whom were innocent people? Is it that easy to justify all that? :yuk:

You said that terrorists glorify death. Are you calling the people at Hollywood, the US military and American ............... terrorists? Just asking cuz i am unable to figure that out after i was dropped on my head this morning.:ouch:

Now that i am feeling a little better, i was thinking:

President Bush named three countries among the axis of evil, Iraq, Iran and North Korea. He chose to go after Iraq cuz, lets face it, Saddam was packing lots of WMDs(Wholesome Mineral Deposits). Had he gone after the country that was actually building nukes i.e. North Korea, their "allies" in South Korea and Japan would not be living under a heightened nuclear threat today. All in the name of Freedom, Equality and Justice. God Bless America!:D

But just curious, why don't you tell me how you would have handled this if no matter what you tried to do, you're getting no response... how could you have gotten a guarantee that this boat wouldn't go BANGGG once alongside the Rappahannock?

Did you see me saying somewhere that i am running a consultancy for the US Navy?:confused:

Anyways, i am going to answer that with a question.

How could you have gotten a guarantee that this boat would go BANGGG once alongside the Rappahannock?

And how come the whole world is required to provide "guarantees" to the US? A country which has the most powerful military at its disposal.:suspect:

Off course the men on Rappahannock deserved a chance too. Why can't a judgement be made on the most probable point(s) of impact(if there will be one) and the crew be asked to vacate that part(s) of the boat?

American lives are no more precious than the lives of others but yes they are most definitely just as precious.

[drive73]

H2,

Please enlighten me on what your country policies are doing to help the poor of the world and even better, what you yourself are doing to help the poor of the world. And before you answer I know you will make about 99 percent of what you do up.
Don't try and pretend you or your country makes everything better for the world. Believe me if your politicians had Americas power they would be doing the same s($;)).. Basic human nature, power equalls corruption..

[BeCareful]

Yep H2, since you clearly cannot understand simple concepts such as Force Protection, acknowledge local ways of thinking they are above the law/regulations (propagated by tons of events that generally leave ordinary western people scratching their heads), precedent of suicide bombings, etc. it's really pointless to keep discussing anything further with you.

It's unfortunate that innocent lives were lost, though the people on that boat were acting reckless and stupid. Had they followed normal protocols and aimed to pass behind a gray ship, nothing would have happened.

To answer your final question, if there was no way to positively confirm that the boat wouldn't have gone BANGGG alongside the Rappahannock because they were unresponsive and continued charging at the ship, the security detail was correct in opening fire.

Being a Monday-morning quarterback is the easiest job in the world... particularly since you are so anti-American in every aspect.

So I'll go ahead and let you have the final word. Tell us all about how bad America is, how we are horrible people celebrating death and how our world dominance is making you feel inadequate and irrelevant... ;)

Have a wonderful day... and don't play chicken with other cars on SZR, or with big gray ships off of Jebel Ali.

[LearBus]

Just one quick question for Mr. Sulfuric Acid. If you were the individulal in charge of security on this particular ship how would you have handled such a dilemma?

[Swan Man]

A middle easterner lecturing the world on how the world should be. If the world was like the middle east it would be a very sad place and probably a place not worth living in. Hence all the suicide bombers but they get 72 virgins for the acts.
Quick question if a female commits jihad does she get 72 big hard studs?

[The Real Pink Baron]

They did not read it right. It is "ONE" 72 year old virgin!

[pilotday]

A lot of people don't realize that the City of Chicago, has some of the most strict gun laws in the world.

For example, gun possession is permitted only inside a dwelling, not in a garage or on the outside grounds of the property. Only one gun at a time may be kept in a usable state.

However, the gun-controlled Windy City is on a pace to have 450 murders this year, an Aurora every 10 days.

and 98% of those are "black on black" crime.

More laws aren't the issue......ex380 and others, sometimes you sound like you have a bit of Afrikaans dialect. If you are in fact you should understand where a lot of America's problems come from.....

[pilotday]

and if you criticize other countries, don't be a pussy and be vague about your own homeland. A debate is kind of pointless if you don't know who you are debating. I would respect someone's opinion if they don't hide behind a curtain. I may not agree, but at least I will respect you.

H2S04, ex380, donpizmeov, sittingidly, vfenext where you from? Tell us so we can compare our countries' foreign policies in a fair debate.

Americans are dicks. And H2S04, donpizmoev are pussies. And ex380 is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get f***** by dicks. But dicks also f*** assholes: assholes that just want to **** on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can f*** an asshole is a dick, with some balls. The problem with dicks is: they f*** too much or f*** when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of **** that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us f*** this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in ****!

[NG_Kaptain]

Meanwhile we are prohibited to have any discussions on the other airline in the UAE.

[Praise Jebus]

Wow.....geez Don looked what you started....

[Trader]

pilotday-- I agree with the Navy's reaction.

But about gun laws. The reason there are so many murders in the US (a nice fact---there will 45,000 gun related deaths in the US over the next 4 years--more than all the American deaths in the Vietnam war) is because guns are AVAILABLE!!!

Yes, people can claim that 'see, we have gun control laws but there are still murders' but the fact is that the 'bad' guys are not likely to care too much about the laws.

Pick any European country, Australia, Canada - no where near the gun deaths simply because the guns are not readily available. I'm Canadian and we, likely, have the closest similarities to American, yet there is no where near the number of gun deaths (on a per capita basis) as the US. We can still buy guns though buying hand guns is made more difficult, requiring extensive checks and buying assault rifles, while possible, is even more difficult (and I think should be banned).

I don't think we (or the Europeans) have less 'bad guys' (see Norway) but the simple availability of weapons is not there. I can't walk in to a store and walk out with a gun. Even the US background checks, where and when required are a joke.

In short, you throw a lot of guns out and people will use them.

Regardless of what side of the political spectrum you are on I believe your founding fathers are rolling in their graves at the fact that the country they created and the Constitution they wrote has been twisted to the point were over 10,000 people die a year at the hands of guns.

[donpizmeov]

PJ and I didn't even say Jehovah!

The don

[BananaAir]

Jehovah!!! A classic reply the Don..
This post needed a bit of humor!
Wonder how many pruners can place that Jehovah movie scene you refer to?