Iran Air 655 Incident- ACI last night.

[Jakey]

I was watching, last night, the re-run of the Iran Air 655 incident.

I could not believe the comments from the Naval people interviewed- they did not seem to comprehend they'd committed an act of murder.

They did not seem to comprehend that there was no war, what they did was wholly wrong, there was a series of humoungous mistakes made, and Iran Air did nothing that was moderately wrong!

It’s astonishing that the Commander of the ship in question still has his liberty- he murdered over 290 people, simple as....

Then got a medal for murdering 290 people...

It's a disgrace- where are the UN and so on in this situation?

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)

Iran Air Flight 655 July 3rd 1988 - National Geographic 1 - YouTube

Iran Air Flight 655 July 3rd 1988 - National Geographic 4 - YouTube

Does anyone know why or how this was covered up and never brought to any form of justice?

it is utterly sickening.

[Flap62]

Erm....it wasn't covered up. It was reported at the time, subject to an investigation and you've just watched a programme about it. Hardly a secret.

[Jakey]

Well

1. There was no public trial (a military one yes, but this was an act of war or terrorism)
2. The Americans actually commended the officers (hilarious!) and gave them gongs! Please explain that as it's beyond me!!
3. There was never an opportunity to bring these guys to justice for the murders they committed.

If you were from Libya, you'd struggle to differentiate between this and Lockerbie in terms of cause and effect, in honesty.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Nice try,troll!
:8

[FODPlod]

Jakey: No war? Not from where I was standing.

Read Gulf of Conflict - A History of US-Iranian Confrontation at Sea (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CFkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.voltairenet.org%2FIMG%2Fpdf%2FUS-Iranian_Confrontation_at_Sea.pdf&ei=z2IFULHmMca20QXKxNHZBw&usg=AFQjCNFx49MpWLJ2uxq_hoMxxmzgeurOOQ&sig2=QYsdGz2d0o0Mv8-GKR0FcQ) which still resonates with maritime forces deployed in the Gulf today.

I'm not excusing the American CO's actions and, for a variety of reasons, I don't think an RN warship would have made the same tragic mistakes. However, welcome to the world where things are rarely black and white and snap decisions by frontline personnel in the heat of the moment can result in innocent lives being saved or lost. It's a huge responsibility for those involved and the balance of decision is often fine. There but for the grace of God, etc.

[Jakey]

FODP

Thanks for that. I take your thoughts, but by definition, there was no war (look up UN definition)

I also agree re snap decisions and innocent lives....but do you not think that when a CO takes on the responsibility, that he should be held by those actions? The CO should have had 35 years for murder, end of story.

It was a huge cluster-f, and when you hear the various people interviewed there does not even seem to be any contrition, which is really shocking.

More:

the airliner was transmitting an Identification friend or foe code for a civilian aircraft

the Vincennes was inside Iranian territorial waters when it launched the missiles. This contradicted earlier Navy statements that were misleading if not incorrect. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) report of December, 1988 placed the USS Vincennes well inside Iran's territorial waters.

According to the U.S. Navy investigation the Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency.

ten attempts were made to contact Iran Air flight 655: seven on military frequencies and three on commercial frequencies, addressed to an "unidentified Iranian aircraft" and giving its speed as 350 knots (650 km/h), which was the ground speed of the aircraft their radar reported. The crew of the Iran Air 655, however, would have seen a speed of 300 knots (560 km/h) on their controls, which was their relative airspeed, possibly leading them to conclude that the Vincennes was talking to another aircraft.

The ship's crew did not efficiently consult commercial airliner schedules, due to confusion over which time zone the schedules referred to. The schedules flight times used Bandar Abbas airport time while the Vincennes was on Bahrain time. The airliner's departure was 27 minutes later than scheduled. "The CIC was also very dark, and the few lights that it did have flickered every time the Vincennes fired at the speedboats. This was of special concern to Petty Officer Andrew Anderson, who first picked up Flight 655 on radar and thought that it might be a commercial aircraft. As he was searching in the Navy's listing of commercial flights, he apparently missed Flight 655 because it was so dark

[Lima Juliet]

Agreed, it was a completet c0ck up. It did go to the International Court of Justice, but the Yanks settled out of court with ~$130M sum so as not to drag it through the Courts. Rogers did get a gong but it was for his aggressive leadership of VINCENNES (apparently he was an aggressive SOAB according to his USN peers - cited by CO of USS SIDES). It is not uncommon to get the Legion of Merrit as a CO following a 2-3 year tour. He did not get promoted and was sent to a backwater tour and retired about 3 years later.

There were lots of Human Factors in this and the main one was "expectancy bias" - he heard and saw what he wanted to see/hear. It has stark similarities to the Patriot vs GR4 in 2003. Don't forget that the Patriot Bty Cdr did not do 'chokey' for their error either.

So really, I don't see why this should all be dragged up again?

LJ

PS. It is believed that Rogers' wife was targetted by a Pipe-Bomb IED on her truck in mainland USA - luckily she escaped injury. Also, there have been links to the Iranian's outrage and technological aid given to the Pan Am bombers. Both have never been officially confirmed, but would seem plausible.

[Jakey]

Leon

Thanks for that...

Re 'dragging up' - well because I watched it last night! and also, Rogers (and others) has escaped trial and penalty, which is wholly wrong. There is no excuse for what happened, and in honesty, if a Nazi war criminal can be brought to trial at 97, then why not Rogers? IMO, and by most legal definitions, his actions were murder, simple as that.

Re Pan Am103

Lockerbie 103 came down shortly after, and Iran were always pegged for being responsible, but it wasn't proven....also there's a strong school of thought that Iran paid Lib to do it for them. However at the time, Bush needed both Lib and Iran on his side to fight against Iraq, so he pulled off accusing Iran for Pan Am 103 (if you follow all that).

[Marcantilan]

The proceedings at the ICJ are available here: Contentious Cases | International Court of Justice (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/?p1=3&p2=3&k=9c&case=79&code=irus&p3=0)

Worth reading.

Regards,

[Fox Four]

I thought Captain Joseph Patrick Curry brought down 103?

[Lima Juliet]

Jakey

It's also not murder, IMHO. At best it is "involuntary manslaughter" that stemmed from a lack of intention to cause death but involving an intentional, or negligent, act leading to death.

He believed it was an IrAF F-14A and not an airliner with lots of innocent people on board. He would appear to have shown some negligence in his command required of him. He was probably "trigger happy" from what had happened to USS STARK the previous year and a recent small incident with Iranian gunboats. Yes, as I said, he c0cked up, but he did not wake up in the morning and think "you know what, I'm going to schwack an airliner and kill a bunch of innocents today". If he had done, that would be murder.

He also paid his own price. He did not make Admiral, which one would expect for a Captain of an AEGIS Class. His family may have been targetted in retaliation. He was "put out to grass" and retired soon after. He also has to live with the thoughts of his actions and the loss of life he caused.

In my opinion, he has suffered enough. He has also narrowly avoided an ICJ Court Case as the Iranians accepted reparation from the US Govt that he was working for and representing on the Bridge of VINCENNES. That is probably why it went no further than it did.

LJ

[Jakey]

LJ

I disagree wholly about murder- he fired the rockets with the direct and calculated intention of bringing down an aircraft which he had not correctly indetified.

I do agree that towards the PAX, 'malice afterthought' was not provable, but in terms if the aircraft, yes, there was MA.

I guess murder with diminished responsibility would have been a decent call, as clearly he was in no fit mental state to command a canoe, let alone a warship.

EDIT: and regarding not making Admiral, jeepers!! He should have served 30 years for that....he killed 260 people, including 66 kids. The frightening thing is when interviewed he shows no contrition whatsover, the arrogant SOAB.

[Lonewolf_50]

3 July, 1988. Glad to see you get spun up over an old tragedy. Do you also get up in the morning and work yourself into a righteoue fury over the buzz bombs that hit London, or The Blitz?

I somehow manage, for my own part, not to get up each day utterly pissed off at Saddam Hussein and his Air Force's attack on USS Stark. 'Twas a mistake, ya see. His Mirage pilot cocked up. (And the CO of the Stark got no points for maintaining readiness ... )

As to your "there was no war" you are wrong.

There was a war in progress, between Iran and Iraq. US had chosen to reflag Kuwaiti tankers, who had been under attack. One of the belligerent nations, Iran, had been making them targets.

Furthermore, the US had been participating in periodic military actions vis a vis Iran since Earnest Will and Preying Mantis. A state of belligerency had at some point previous been established by action, though there was no further declaration since POLITICALLY it was not deemed necessary to go any further than an occasional retaliation or raid. You also might be interested to learn that Rogers was involved at the time in an armed interaction with Iranian boats. There was shooting going on already, stage set by previous actions and operations noted. (Whether or not he should have is another matter, but his chain of command didn't relieve him, so perhaps it fit within US policy at the time. DID THAT EVER OCCUR TO YOU?)

You need to learn what war is: it is a child of politics. It is also very messy. You also need to stop pretending that the world is a parlor or a courtroom. As above, your fancy "black and white" model of the world doen't match reality.

All above considered, CAPTAIN Rogers cocked up with fatal consequences. In the larger picture, since POLITICALLY he'd been put in a particular position -- in which one can make such errors -- his liability is not the same as if you and I were to decide, as a team, to blow up a train from London to York and kill 260 people.

A fatal mistake (no question) rather than a deliberate intention to kill civilians.

I note that your lying mouth states that Rogers got a medal for hitting the airbus.
False.
See the above explanation for how end of tour awards are a commonplace. (Indeed, some of us who served in the USN wonder if the proliferation of such kinds of awards don't undermine the whole awards system ... )

Why do I bother? I expect you to keep foaming at the mouth. Gee, someone a few posts up called it: Troll.

And damnit, I took the bait. Not my finest hour. :uhoh:

[Jakey]

Lonewolf- I'm assuming you're either Capt William Rogers or perhaps Jack Nicholson in 'A Few Good Men'? Which one?

You can spin it whichever way you choose. The issue here is civilians and also 66 kids DIED because of absolute and total incompetency, and probably, the same gung-ho behaviour and lack of sense and balance that you have just exhibited.

What angers me is the lack of admission of guilt from the US, the lack of criminal proceedings against an incompetent belligerent fool and the gung-ho justification of any form of violence.

And I have every right to express that.

[Lonewolf_50]

As usual, lad, you are wrong in your assumption.

I note your emotive language and spin: you count the casualties as X civilians AND 66 kids.

Are not the kids assumed to be civilians (and for the most part, pilgrims)?

No surprise. Clear thinking isn't a trait one finds in the habitually outraged.

I don't deny your right to express that.

I also have no respect for your how and why.

The year is 2012. Get with the program.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Best to stay well away from americans in general, especially if they're armed. Even their allies are never safe, they don't normally need a rational excuse to open fire, it's in their dna, it's called the 'cock' protein.

[Lonewolf_50]

P.P.: suggest you learn what "counting the hits and ignoring the misses" applies to in the field of reasoning and drawing conclusions.

[Jakey]

Lonewolf

Once you've wiped the drool off your keyboard...

Would you believe an apology is in order? If not, why?

Would you consider that Rogers should be prosecuted? If not, why?

I don't understand your point about numbers- let's just say and agree that 290 people, of which 66 were children, were killed unlawfully through the utter incompetence and aggression of a handful of trigger-happy fools.

Is that fair?

[airpolice]

I disagree wholly about murder- he fired the rockets with the direct and calculated intention of bringing down an aircraft which he had not correctly indetified.

I do agree that towards the PAX, 'malice afterthought' was not provable, but in terms if the aircraft, yes, there was MA.

I guess murder with diminished responsibility would have been a decent call, as clearly he was in no fit mental state to command a canoe, let alone a warship.

Jakey, are you suggesting he should get 35 years for "Murdering an aircraft"?

Murder with diminished responsibility? keep on guessing.

"an aircraft which he had not correctly indetified." You missed the point there, he had, in his mind, identified it. He was wrong, but didn't know that. This was an honest mistake, possibly even carelessness, but not by any legal definition is it murder.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

The year is indeed 2012. Let's forget and forgive everything prior then shall we?!

If, through incompetence or negligence, I ram a bus full of "civilians" and children off the road and kill them all I assume that I'll get away with it for twenty four years and then everyone will say it's alright, get with the program?

Doubt it.

[green granite]

Jakey you've had 24 years to make this point, why wait that long?

[airpolice]

No you shouldn't get away with it but nor should you be tried for Murder, unless there is evidence that you were in the vicinity of the bus with the intention of killing the kids.

In the UK there are offences of causing death by dangerous driving and causing death by careless driving.

There is also an offence of Murder.

[Jakey]

An honest mistake? I'm sorry, that does not wash. The guy is employed NOT to make mistakes of this nature....and bearing in mind it's his profession, it's fair that he would be held culpable, just as a doctor would be if he acted incompetently and killed someone through poor practice.

I wonder what people would have argued had it been a US airline shot down off the coastline of the US by an Iranian ship?

What do we think the thoughts would be then?

[airpolice]

Green Granite, Jakey probably wasn't born when this happened so he couldn't have got all steamed up about it sooner.

[Jakey]

@Airpolice

OK- if I believed that bus had a bomb inside it and was about to ram into a shopping centre, and I ran it off the road and killed the lot, what would I be tried for?

An honest mistake?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Air police, I didn't mention murder. I would, however, expect to be on the receiving end of some justice no?

[Thelma Viaduct]

LW, how anyone manages to reach the age of 53 in Texas is beyond me???

[maxred]

I wonder what people would have argued had it been a US airline shot down off the coastline of the US by an Iranian ship?

Jakey, yes it was a deplorable incident, and it would appear that the individuals responsible, possibly did not pay for the error of their ways.

However, history, is littered with similar incidents, in every corner of the globe. The problem would appear that the 'victor', is always victorious, and writes history, or re writes history, in their own fashion and to suit their slanted view of 'their' victory. It is not a great and fair world we live in, never has been, despite centuries of 'advancement':(

[Snafu351]

Jakey the answer to that question rather depends if it was your role and responsibility to protect the shopping centre doesn't it.

If you are a random prole spouting mad ramblings about bombs and buses to justify your actions then murder may be a justifiable charge, but diminished responsibility probably comes into play. If however you are designated as defender of the shopping centre and have strong reason to believe the bus has a bomb and is targeting the shopping centre then i can't see how any reasonable and reasoning person can condemm you for your actions.

[Jakey]

OK, just so I understand this, who was the ship protecting, for whom, and against what?

(and be careful, these are not easy questions to answer....)

[Fitter2]

At the risk of further winding up a troll

(and be careful, these are not easy questions to answer....)

they are in fact very easy questions to answer. However, as you show no inclination to listen to any answers so far, why bother?

[Roadster280]

If you are a rifleman manning a VCP in Northern Ireland during the troubles, it is your duty to stop traffic, and look for all things bad. If a car runs the VCP, you are being threatened and you may open fire. If you succeed in killing all of the occupants before the vehicle hits the VCP, you have done your duty, home for tea and medals.

If on the other hand you continue to shoot at the vehicle once it has passed the VCP, then the threat is receding, and you may commit murder.

Capt Rogers believed his ship was under threat from a hostile military aircraft a mere 10 miles away that had altered its course to descend and accelerate towards him. He therefore ordered an attack in defense of his ship. No problem in regards to his decision making. Had he ordered the wreckage strafed, then he'd have been in the wrong, but he didn't.

It was a tragic mistake, based upon false information being presented. The aircraft didn't descend, nor did it attack. That's not what the Captain was told though.

[airpolice]

what would I be tried for?

An honest mistake? Manslaughter.

I'm not sure you'd have much of a defence if you killed a bus load of people to save a shopping centre.

I don't know which country has the offence of "making an honest mistake" so where you would be tried for that is a mystery.

There's a world of difference between members of the armed forces, on duty, in combat, under threat, and normal people going about their daily grind.

Perhaps if some of your 800 hours had been done in uniform, you'd have a better understanding of what was going on in the control room just before the missile was fired. Perhaps if we knew how many of your 800 were as a passenger, we'd have a better idea of how much of a troll you are.


Spandex, Air police, I didn't mention murder. I would, however, expect to be on the receiving end of some justice no?

Yes you should, just like the Captain of the ship was. In every court all over the world there will be people who think that a decision not to prosecute is wrong.

The reality is that, for a multitude of reasons, not everyone who gets caught will go to trial, and that's just the way it is.

What I'm not sure about is who it is that Jakey the Troll is angry at, apart from the whole world.

As for difficult questions, nah, that's easy. They were protecting the image of projecting an image.


I don't see a lot of difference between regime change over the years. Hitler wanted the Jews gone, probably because he didn't like Jews and Rumsfeld wanted a war for Halliburton to make money because he's worked for them since he was at Uni.

The US were happy to destroy Saddam and Gadaffi and yet they object to China wanting to have a say in how Taiwan is run.

Why is it ok for some Libyans to kill the people in power in order overthrow their government but wrong for the people of Northern Ireland to kill politicians in London?

If the IRA should come back up to operating strength and resume hostilities, to shake off the oppression of the British, would the American military wade in to support the poor downtrodden folk of Belfast?

The US military machine is an extension of the White House and whether the ship should or should not have been there is neither here nor there.

They were told to go so they went. They were threatened so they responded with force. Sadly, they responded to threats by shooting down the wrong aircraft. Some of the people who ought to shoulder the blame are in the Pentagon.

[Jakey]

Capt Rogers believed his ship was under threat from a hostile military aircraft a mere 10 miles away that had altered its course to descend and accelerate towards him. He therefore ordered an attack in defense of his ship. No problem in regards to his decision making. Had he ordered the wreckage strafed, then he'd have been in the wrong, but he didn't.

It was a tragic mistake, based upon false information being presented. The aircraft didn't descend, nor did it attack. That's not what the Captain was told though.

No. The information was not false. It was badly interpreted, shockingly researched (e.g. the flight departures log), and, even when there was doubt in virtually everyone's mind, he took an irrevocable and appalling decision, demonstrating appalling judgement and sense.

There is a fundamental difference. The information was there had he have known where to look and how to look (and in fairness, had the correct comms equipment). The truth was, he did not.

And he showed NO contrition, which is even worse.

[Marcantilan]

Well, a driver of a motorcycle makes a mistake on a turn and kills someone and still he ends in a trial and probably jail time.

A man suffers an accidental discharge a kills someone and still he ends in a trial, probably jail time.

This man was in command of a Ticonderoga class Cruiser (with plenty of staff to support him, lots of systems to help in his decisions), fired missiles against a civilian jet to make a tragedy and walked home? And the punishment is he not ended as an Admiral?

In the other end, as a lawyer, I can´t see the "mistake" here. It is clearly a case of gross negligence. And, as Romans said culpa lata dolo aequiparatur .

Sorry, justice has not been done here.

[Jakey]

Airpolice- a lot of that I agree with as it happens....save for the bit about 800 hours in uniform etc...if people want to (and are daft enough to) work in those positions, it comes with the territory, I am afraid.

Someone questioned my age on here- I'd put it like this- old enough not to want to play boy soldiers anymore.

It's a sad truism that politicians can always find people stupid enough to pull the trigger for them.

Aside from this particular issue, the greatest crimes in the world are now committed in government and board rooms, and that is an absolute fact.

[airpolice]

So....................... had there been an F14 tucked under the airbus, hidden from view until within firing range.... ship gets hit, sailors die, captain survives and here we are years later wanting to hang the captain for failing to protect his men.

[Jakey]

So....................... had there been an F14 tucked under the airbus, hidden from view until within firing range.... ship gets hit, sailors die, captain survives and here we are years later wanting to hang the captain for failing to protect his men.

Are you serious? There was no F14. At all. Ever.

[Jakey]

By the way- when questioned re an apology, this was GWB's response, which says it all....

"American will never apologise, we haven't in the past and we won't in the future, it's not something we believe we need to do. I'm sorry but that's just the way we are."

[El Grifo]

Jakey, although I fully understand where you are coming from, and I too find a huge gap in the logic regarding, "Airspeed, descent and attack" given the amount of technology on board the Ticonderoga Class, you are pi**ing against the wind with the cowboys !!

It is just how it is, that's all. Some things will never change !

I mean to say I was wrong in calling this guy a Troll - I should have gone for Tiresome Troll!!

Go paddle your canoe numb-nutz!!!


Or even Jakey, could you please purchase a ticket and head off back to Iran. You're becoming quite tedious.

Sweet mother of Jeezus :ugh:

[airpolice]

save for the bit about 800 hours in uniform etc... if people want to (and are daft enough to) work in those positions, it comes with the territory, I am afraid.

You don't need to be afraid, in the words of Colonel Nathan Jessup (you brought this into the debate) in court,

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

[con-pilot]

By the way- when questioned re an apology, this was GWB's response, which says it all....



No, this quote says it all when comes to your so called facts.

George W. Bush was not President on July 3, 1988.

George H. W. Bush was not President on July 3, 1988.

Roland Reagan was President of the United States.

You are a troll that will use anything, true or false to post a anti-American rant.

If I were you, I'd be too embarrassed to respond.

[FODPlod]

'Tis a wonderful thing, hindsight, isn't it? Shame it's just as irrelevant to decisions made over 20 years ago as it is to going out tonight to buy the winning ticket for last week's lottery. ;)

[airpolice]

con-pilot...Doc: Tell me, Future Boy, who's President of the United States in 1985?
Marty: Ronald Reagan.
Doc: Ronald Reagan? The actor? [rolls his eyes] Ha! Then who's vice-president, Jerry Lewis?

[Trim Stab]

The septics are not signatories to the ICJ, so Rogers will never be put on trial.

The US refusal to hold their military accountable for these sorts of "mistakes" does their country a great disservice and contributes to the negative image of the USA around the world.

[Jakey]

Con-Pilot

:D

Ever considered that the apology was requested AFTER the actual event and enquiry?

Like when GWB had taken office?

Are you sure I should be embarrassed? Or should I be embarrassed for you?

[Jakey]

Airpolice

And look what happened to Nathan?

It's rare that Hollywood has a greater sense of moral issues than the real world, but in this case they succeeded.

[El Grifo]

You are a troll that will use anything, true or false to post a anti-American rant.



Come on Con, you are the balanced guy. Leave that garbage to the chuks and matari lot.

Seriously !

El G.

[Flightmech]

Jakey,
At the end of the day Rogers, whilst making a massive cockup with incorrectly identifying the incoming as an F14 and after making numerous attempts to establish communications, had to make a decision to protect his ship and his crew onboard. He made the decision to protect his ship in a high pressure environment under a supposed threat condition.

He did know knowingly and intentionally shoot down an IranAir A300.

I think you should let it be now.....................

[Jakey]

I actually fail to see where I've posted anything that is anti-American, other than factual examples of their conduct in this instance.

Criticising something a nation has done because you believe it is wrong does not make you xenophobic.

[Jakey]

Flightmech

Jakey,
At the end of the day Rogers, whilst making a massive cockup with incorrectly identifying the incoming as an F14 and after making numerous attempts to establish communications, had to make a decision to protect his ship and his crew onboard. He made the decision to protect his ship in a high pressure environment under a supposed threat condition.

He did know knowingly and intentionally shoot down an IranAir A300.

I think you should let it be now.....................




All fine...however, I would comment, that it would have been far more preferable to lose the ship rather than the aircraft, as most sane people would realise. If there was 1% of doubt, which there was, he should have backed off. Military service men have subscribed to serving to the death through choice; passengers on a civilian aircraft have not.

[Flightmech]

that it would have been far more preferable to lose the ship rather than the aircraft, as most sane people would realise.

You really have no idea:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Lonewolf_50]

There was no F14.
You and I agree on that fact. In fact, the person to whom you responded would agree as well.

That wasn't the point being made.

Go back and read the rest of his post, again.

As a diversion to some of the nonsense we are tossing about, suggest you look up the concept of Theta in air to air war. For a while (Cold War Vintage) that was usually used as the angle between the jamming signal and the radar returns of a group aircraft raiding (Backfire, Badger, Bear) where you could first separate the targets from the (jamming) noise on a radar scope.

With the proposed "but what if there was an F-14 up there too?" idea (of dubious merit) you can apply the same idea to angular or lateral separation between two aircraft in formation: Call it theta prime, if you like, and define it as that angle (or separation of signals) on a SPY-1's radar display between two aircraft in formation.

The point suggested seems related to some folks who believed that a tactic to set up a sneak attack on a ship in ISE would be an F-14 snuggled up close behind an airliner to "merge" two radar contacts into a single contact up until time to attack ...

Personally, I do not buy into the idea that the CIC crew nor Captain Rogers applied that reasoning to an air contact, and whether or not it was Hostile versus Unknown within their NTDS system, and inside their Brain Housing Units. As noted above, the target classification process didn't win any awards.
I actually fail to see ...
I understand. Myopia tends to be genetic.

Now, on to the silly part:

Lonewolf Once you've wiped the drool off your keyboard...
That's irony, Sir Oral Foam.

Would you believe an apology is in order?
If you look at the history, actions speak louder than words. A settlement was made, in cash, to victims families. Called by some "The Greenback Poultice." I'd call that an apology in form, but I guess you want pretty words. But I also seem to recall that it took a while to arrive at that decision. (EDIT: Clinton administration in office at the time that the money changed hands).

To be honest with you, I am not completely sure why President Reagan did not deem it appropriate to apologize for what was obviously a mistake. Or, given how long that investigation took, why GHW Bush didn't toss one out as a bone.

I don't think it would have hurt anything.

POLITICS being what it is, and the US and Iran being in the middle of a nice POLITICAL game of "I hate your guts" at the time, I am not surprised no apology was offered.
Would you consider that Rogers should be prosecuted? If not, why?
By whom? Competent civil and military authority in my nation deemed the answer to be no. That is who he was accountable to. You don't like that?
How droll.
PP: LW, how anyone manages to reach the age of 53 in Texas is beyond me?
Given your problem with reasoning and conclusions, that does not surprise me in the least. I recently went to a funeral of a man, a Texan through and through, who died at age 104. Please don't hurt yourself figuring that one out either.
Well, a driver of a motorcycle makes a mistake on a turn and kills someone and still he ends in a trial and probably jail time.
A man suffers an accidental discharge a kills someone and still he ends in a trial, probably jail time.
This man was in command of a Ticonderoga class Cruiser (with plenty of staff to support him, lots of systems to help in his decisions), fired missiles against a civilian jet to make a tragedy and walked home? And the punishment is he not ended as an Admiral?
In the other end, as a lawyer, I can´t see the "mistake" here. It is clearly a case of gross negligence. And, as Romans said culpa lata dolo aequiparatur .
Sorry, justice has not been done here.

From the Iranian point of view, that would be a fairer point were it not for the Greenback Poultice administered, see above.
In detail:
a. The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of innocent human life. The government never admitted wrongdoing, and did not accept responsibility nor submit an apology to the Iranian government.

My guess: That probably has to do with, were an apology and "admission" be on record, a larger claim could be made in a court. POLITICS and LAWYERs are involved. Perhaps money too.

ALSO, you are reminded of the POLITICAL context of the time. The year was 1988.

In February 1996 the United States agreed to pay Iran US$131.8 million in settlement to discontinue a case --

Settled out of court. This is a common exercise of justice being done, of a sort. It appears that US$61.8 million of the claim was in compensation for the 248 Iranians killed in the shoot-down.

Here's the political kicker: The payment of compensation was explicitly characterized by the US as being on an ex gratia basis, and the U.S. denied having any responsibility or liability for what happened.

See above, my observations on POLITICS and LAWYERs being involved in any formal declaration made differently than was done. Welcome to the real world.
The septics are not signatories to the ICJ, so Rogers will never be put on trial.
So sad to see you unable to keep a civil tongue in your mouth, when you were doing so well.
The US refusal to hold their military accountable for these sorts of "mistakes" does their country a great disservice and contributes to the negative image of the USA around the world.
Has it ever occurred to you what contributes to the negative perception of Brits the world over?

What our government does is quite simple:

it sends out its people to the far corners of the world to do this, that, and the other. Part of the agreement in sending them is a vague promise of "we've got your back" as you go out to do things that often put your life at risk. The deployments made into the Persian Gulf since about 1979 have had associated with them a bit of actual risk, see Stark and Samuel B Roberts as but two data points, and in roughly the same region, USS Cole. By simply flying our flag, some people will want to shoot at you. The end result of our operations in the 80's in the PG was that the fuel flowed to the world, which included a lot of our trading partners, in Europe and Asia. If you don't like that, you are invited to perform a similar service.

Wait, you can't.

Likewise, if you don't like how our government handles all that, particularly when things go wrong, you are invited to do something about it. Mostly, what you seem to be able to do is whinge. Sad, pathetic even.

I am so sorry that you are from a "has been" Power, complaining about those who remain as a Power.

Sour grapes much?

The accountable party, at the political level, is and remains our government, who put the Vincennes there with the full knowledge that Vincennes and its Captain might cock it up. (As might any captain).

You will note that justice is rarely done at the political level. Ever consider why?

[Avionker]

Come on then Jakey, start ripping into the Russians for Korean 902 and 007.

Or maybe that will be your topic in 3 years time, as I see you posted in 2006, 2009 and now in 2012.

We all wait with bated breath for 2015, I'm sure.

[MFC_Fly]

Jakey...

If a doctor said you had a medical issue, prescribed a particular medication and you died from taking that drug would you be committing suicide? The answer would be no, you decided to act on the advise of a professional, the doctor, and take a course of action (i.e. take the medication) based on that advise. In this case the captain decided to act on the information fed to him by his team of professionals to defend, in his eyes based on the information he had been given, his ship and its company. HE did not commit murder, he acted in what he perceived to be, at that moment in time, self defence.

Don't forget, the whole incident was started when Iranian gun-boats opened fire on one of his helicopters, this was then followed by a naval gun battle with fire in both directions. There was also an Iranian P3 loitering and possibly providing targeting information to F14's based at the same airfield that the unknown track heading straight at them was seen to depart!

The fact that the information fed to him was incorrect was probably a case of inexperience, fear, excitement or incompetence is another matter. The captain has to trust and rely on his team to give him the correct data - what would you have had him do, take the radar operators place? What if there was an EW or acoustic situation going on simultaneously, would he also have to sit at those sensor positions too? Should he have held off until it was too late and his ship had been hit and some of his crew killed?

I find it gross incompetence the way the data on the airborne track was handled, the way the unknown track was challenged, etc, etc, etc, but I do not see the captain as having committed murder at all - he was simply acting on information given to him by his professionals in a threat environment.

MFC

[airpolice]

MFC, the crew were able to ADVISE the Captain by giving him ADVICE.

[con-pilot]

Ever considered that the apology was requested AFTER the actual event and enquiry?

Like when GWB had taken office?

Are you sure I should be embarrassed? Or should I be embarrassed for you?

Nice try, but you fail again. As I remember Reagan saying that.

And yes, you are an embarrassment.

Just curious, where is your outrage on KAL 007?

[Jakey]

Quote:
There was no F14.
You and I agree on that fact. In fact, the person to whom you responded would agree as well.

That wasn't the point being made.

Go back and read the rest of his post, again.

As a diversion to some of the nonsense we are tossing about, suggest you look up the concept of Theta in air to air war. For a while (Cold War Vintage) that was usually used as the angle between the jamming signal and the radar returns of a group aircraft raiding (Backfire, Badger, Bear) where you could first separate the targets from the (jamming) noise on a radar scope.

With the proposed "but what if there was an F-14 up there too?" idea (of dubious merit) you can apply the same idea to angular or lateral separation between two aircraft in formation: Call it theta prime, if you like, and define it as that angle (or separation of signals) on a SPY-1's radar display between two aircraft in formation.

The point suggested seems related to some folks who believed that a tactic to set up a sneak attack on a ship in ISE would be an F-14 snuggled up close behind an airliner to "merge" two radar contacts into a single contact up until time to attack ...

Personally, I do not buy into the idea that the CIC crew nor Captain Rogers applied that reasoning to an air contact, and whether or not it was Hostile versus Unknown within their NTDS system, and inside their Brain Housing Units. As noted above, the target classification process didn't win any awards.




Whilst I appreciate your clear articulation of the issues, there is a huge degree of paranoia there.

You also fail to realise that the US ship had NO right to fire on anything, if the truth be known. The ICJ ruled that "this.... cannot be justified as measures necessary to protect the essential security interests of the United States of America"

Occam's razor is the acid test in these instances. The simplest explanation, when presented with many, is normally the truth.

Quote:
I actually fail to see ...
I understand. Myopia tends to be genetic.

Not big, not clever, not cool. Let yourself down on that one.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Bit premature MFC he hasn't responded to your previous post yet.

[Jakey]

KA007- absolutely the same.

However, I would genuinely hope that a civilised and westernised nation would have greater moral compass.

[MFC_Fly]

airpolice, are you saying my post was wrong or are you not only policing the air but grammar and/or spelling also? My excuse is, in my time zone it is now late and I am tired and made the odd mistake, what's yours?

[Flightmech]

Come on then Jakey, start ripping into the Russians for Korean 007.

To be fair he probably hasn't seen that episode of Air Crash Investigation yet:ugh:

Whatever will he say about that one. The guy who pressed that button at least had a visual on his "bogie"

[MFC_Fly]

Lord Spandex Masher, as serving military (at least for another few weeks :ok:), I was responding to what Jakey wrote in the bit I quoted - since he posted that comment about the value of military personnel before I quoted him I was not at all premature in my response.

MFC

Edited to add: However whilst posting the above I see this thread has been moderated and some posts, including the one to which you refer, have been deleted - so those arriving late may now be a bit confused :confused:

[airpolice]

MFC, I was just pointing out that you had used the wrong word, more than once.

I do not see the captain as having committed murder at all

The irony of you doing so, in pointing out that the troll had done the same thing with the "Murder" accusation, made me smile.

[Jakey]

I find it incredibly sad that such low value is placed upon human life by the military.

This is why I would never support a military charity or something of that ilk. In a democratic society, if one chooses to join the military, one accepts the risks.

The people on 665 had no such choice.

[Roadster280]

You also fail to realise that the US ship had NO right to fire on anything, if the truth be known. The ICJ ruled that "this.... cannot be justified as measures necessary to protect the essential security interests of the United States of America"

What the ICJ said or didn't say was totally irrelevant. The captain was only indirectly "protect(ing) the essential security interests of the United States of America" by having his ship there in the first place.

His primary aim at that moment was to protect his ship from a (perceived) immediate threat. He had every right to do that.

If you had served, as even an MT driver, you would have a much clearer understanding of why you are on the wrong end of "them" and "us" in your arguments here. Even as a basic trainee, once weapon trained, you will guard the camp on which you serve. If you see a threat to security while patrolling, you are duty bound to prevent it from occurring. That may be by shooting an armed intruder. You don't stop and ask them politely for identification if they are pointing a weapon at you. You shoot them first.

[pontifex]

Lone Wolf,

The majority of us Brits are well aware that we are a "has been power". Isn't it about time that you yanks don't reallise that you have recently become so. At least our empire lasted longer than yours.

[Flightmech]

This is why I would never support a military charity

You're not going to make any friends like that. You've just insulted the whole of the military in one foul sweep. You're out of order:eek:.

[Flightmech]

I smell a rat...could Jakey actually be "The Hitcher" in disguise

[MFC_Fly]

Jakey...

I find it incredibly sad that such low value is placed upon human life by the military.
But was it not you that wrote...

it would have been far more preferable to lose the ship rather than the aircraft and...
Military service men have subscribed to serving to the death through choice

Sorry, but are those of us in the military not humans? You obviously place a low value on our lives :hmm:

[Jakey]

This is why I would never support a military charity You're not going to make any friends like that. You've just insulted the whole of the military in one foul sweep. You're out of orderhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif.

I am not sure what a foul sweep is but assume it's similar to a fell swoop.

Nevertheless, I have not insulted anyone. I have merely stated my choice, which is my right. So a little less mock-hysteria please.

And, look at this logically- think of the seriously worthwhile charities- disabled kids, cancer, HIV, age charities....all are dealing with issues that the incumbent has had no choice in. They would always be more worthy, by my judgement.

[Jakey]

@MFC

Yes, in that situation, I believe absolutely that military personnel have less value than civilians, simply as they have signed up to a choice, and the civilians have not.

[Lonewolf_50]

You also fail to realise that the US ship had NO right to fire on anything, if the truth be known.

FALSE.
You are utterly unaware of reality, is that it?
It is a warship, and as such has the right to fire under a wide variety of conditions. Should Capt Rogers have opened fire?

In hindsight, no, and in the view of many of his professional peers At The Time, no. (We had this discussion a few months ago in JB, IIRC, same case.) You might want to familiarize yourself with the United States Naval Institue Proceedings, and the detailed coverage that professional forum (print media) undertook in the wake of that highly controversial, within the professional ranks of the United States Navy, incident.

As I hold your precious "internationa": courts in contempt, no further comment on that noise.

[Lonewolf_50]

pontifex:

We'll see, though the current trend appears to be what you allude to. I don't trust your crystal ball any more than I do mine. ;)

The "decline" of American power was much ballyhooed after Viet Nam as well.

Funny, that prediction wasn't spot on, was it?

[Avionker]

In a democratic society, if one chooses to join the military, one accepts the risks.

You are lucky enough to live in a democracy because of the actions and sacrifices of members of the military.

You don't have to like that fact, just accept it.

[Jakey]

Lonewolf

I really am speechless at your stupidity.

This was a rogue ship, with no agenda, no empowerment firing shots off like Yosemite Sam in a saloon bar, and you think that is justifiable?

Your nationalistic dick waving is embarrassing- America's Foreign Policy is an utter moral disgrace- we all know that- it is self serving to the nth degree.

There is little place in modern society for such anacronistic and archaic views. It is really quite worrying you think like that.

[MFC_Fly]

Jakey,,,

FFS, the captain BELIEVED (based on the information he was being fed) that he was engaging an attacking aircraft with a crew of 2 to protect his ship with a crew of about 400 - he DID NOT KNOW that it was an airliner. He acted on the information he was given in the middle of a combat situation (remember the Iranian patrol boats opened fire at his helicopter first and later returned fire at his ship when he ordered warning shots to be fired at them for approaching his ship).

You are saying that you think he committed murder - the majority here are saying that we think that he did not.

[airpolice]

Jakey, as they used to say in the war, "

.._


._.


._


_._.
_ _ _
_._.
_._

"

[Jakey]

The "decline" of American power was much ballyhooed after Viet Nam as well.

Funny, that prediction wasn't spot on, was it?

It would be good if the US were paying the compensation they owe the people of Viet Nam for the atrocities they committed.

Agent Orange is still causing havoc over there, and that's deplorable too.

[Lonewolf_50]

I find it incredibly sad that such low value is placed upon human life by the military.
Gross generalization noted. Fallacy 1, and Falsehood 1.

This is why I would never support a military charity or something of that ilk.
All or never fallacy. Possibly not false, however.
In a democratic society, if one chooses to join the military, one accepts the risks.
Of what? Being disliked by fools? Your "special pleading" is also noted.
The people on 665 had no such choice.
Using your reasoning in point 2 above, they didn't have to get on that airplane. They had other choices.

@MFC
Yes, in that situation, I believe absolutely that military personnel have less value than civilians, simply as they have signed up to a choice, and the civilians have not.
Special pleading noted. "They are " second class citizen attitude noted. Hence, bigotry noted.

You will note that the title of this sub forum is: Military Aircrew (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew-57/).

See post number 4 in this thread: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/490775-iran-air-655-incident-aci-last-night.html#post7300297

Jakey, if the intention has been a wind up, you are at least partially successful.

EDIT:

Ah, Jakey, your further wind up attempts noted:

Lonewolf
I really am speechless at your stupidity.

Personal attack noted. You seem to be out of ideas. You also seem to be anything but speechless, if your posting is any sort of evidence at all.

This was a rogue ship, with no agenda, no empowerment firing shots off like Yosemite Sam in a saloon bar, and you think that is justifiable?

Strawman argument accompanied by blatant falsehood. Noted.
Your nationalistic dick waving is embarrassing- America's Foreign Policy is an utter moral disgrace- we all know that- it is self serving to the nth degree.
Assumes facts not in evidence. Appeal to a non existent "vox populi." The red flag here is "we all know that" when such is not ever demonstrated.

In other words, assertion without support. Noise.
There is little place in modern society for such anacronistic and archaic views. It is really quite worrying you think like that.

Given that
a) you cannot read my mind and
b) you have demonstrated by falsely attempting to attribute various thoughts and ideas to me, you have no idea what I think like. I thus wonder just what it is you are worrying about.

Also, Jakey, you are now shown to be a blatant liar, as you previously claimed no anti-American motive in this thread.

By your own words convicted, Liar.

[Courtney Mil]

Jakey, or whom-so-ever you may be.

Nice of you to pop up here all of a sudden as someone with very few posts and a ver clear single-issue-fanatacism. Strange that this should crop up at a time like this. Pure coincidence, I'm sure.

I have no idea what you hope to gain from this and I think the majority of responses show very clearly that you are not preaching to the choir.

Suddenly you poke in with an incident from 1988, which many of of us would judge very differently to you, and expect us all to agree how terrible it was. You are clearly not viewing this from a military perspective, so you must have some other motive for doing this. And, of course, your evidence is only a NatGeo video (or part thereof) so I think you are batting from a very dubious position.

You are not military...

I find it incredibly sad that such low value is placed upon human life by the military.

I shall not even comment right now about the incident itself, but you need to understand that this is not the place to pick a one-man fight for an undertermined cause.

Courtney

[Roadster280]

Jakey, you are entitled to your opinion, and indeed to voice it. We, and our forebears, have given you that right, and continue to protect that right.

You might wish to consider the possible outcomes since 1939 if we hadn't, and whether you would have the same rights as you currently enjoy before you exercise those rights in criticizing those who give you the freedom to do so.

[Flightmech]

I am not sure what a foul sweep is but assume it's similar to a fell swoop.

Just shows what a total prick you are, that you can only come back with a grammar correction and nothing of real substance apart from some more military bashing. I'm not in the military by the way, but respect the men and women that BY CHOICE (before you correct me) chose to protect and serve their country. You obviously do not share that respect and are therefore a massive bellend. I shall refrain from contributing more or else i will be banned.

[Milo Minderbinder]

You do all realise that Jakey is probably a first year undergrad researching his summer project on ethics and morals?
And you're all falling into his trap and reinforcing his preconceived conclusions?


More usefully - surely the issue of charging the ships captain with murder or whatever is irrelevant: Iran accepted compensation (for that read blood money) and as such under Shariah law the guilt was accepted by the corporate body - i.e. the USA Government - and the damages paid. The payment of the blood money ends the issue

[Flightmech]

So now we're onto Vietnam. What about the Germans gassing the Jews. Any problems there?

[Jakey]

Lonewolf,

I believe you've spent quite a lot of time on this thread insulting both me personally and also the UK. Right from the off.

I haven't insulted America, but I have cast doubt upon the integrity of its Foreign Policy and the motives of its Military, which is pretty fair game, bearing in mind its actions and atrocities in the past.

I am standing up for what I believe in, and what the majority of sane people in civilian life believe.

I am saddened you cannot understand that.

[Courtney Mil]

That or worse, Milo.:ok:

[Courtney Mil]

Finish the thead.

[Willard Whyte]

It would be good if the US were paying the compensation they owe the people of Viet Nam for the atrocities they committed.

Even better if Vietnam were to pay compensation for atrocities committed by the NVA, against what are now their own people, as well as American civilians (missionaries, USAID workers), not to mention war crimes against prisoners, in flagrant breach of the Geneva Convention.

I am not excusing certain American actions, but your sort only mention one side of the 'truth'.

[Lonewolf_50]

Milo:
More usefully - surely the issue of charging the ships captain with murder or whatever is irrelevant: Iran accepted compensation (for that read blood money) and as such under Shariah law the guilt was accepted by the corporate body - i.e. the USA Government - and the damages paid. The payment of the blood money ends the issue
Said better than I what I was trying to get at.
Muchas Gracias, amigo. :ok:

Willard: I seem to recall that most of the claims were settled at Paris. Oddly enough, Vietnam and the US are beginning to get along a bit better these days. (Might that be due to a certain Chinese gorilla weighing 800 pounds?) Even more interesting, the US and the UK got along after being at war with one another, the US and Spain found a way to get along after being at war with one another and the US and Germany, then the US and Japan, find ways to get along with one another. After a nasty war. Who'd have thunk it?

Now, if we can just get the USA and the (former) CSA to get along with one another ... :E

Jakey: understand far better than you'll ever know.
As noted above, you are an utter failure at mind reading.

Been a real slice, boy.

I hope you've enjoyed the wind up.

[airpolice]

As Roadster points out, Jakey is entitled to an opinion, and she seems unwilling to consider ours.

We should all be mindful that Opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one, but you should be wary of anyone who claims to be interested in yours.

[Jakey]

@Willard Whyte (great handle- just watch what cologne you're wearing...)





On January 31, 2004, a victim's rights group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim%27s_rights_group), the Vietnam Association for Victims of Agent Orange/dioxin (VAVA), filed a lawsuit in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Eastern_District_of_New _York) in Brooklyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooklyn), against several U.S. companies for liability in causing personal injury, by developing and producing the chemical. Dow Chemical and Monsanto were the two largest producers of Agent Orange for the U.S. military, and were named in the suit, along with the dozens of other companies (Diamond Shamrock, Uniroyal, Thompson Chemicals, Hercules, etc.). On March 10, 2005, Judge Jack B. Weinstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_B._Weinstein) of the Eastern District – who had presided over the 1984 US veterans class action lawsuit – dismissed the lawsuit, ruling there was no legal basis for the plaintiffs' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaintiff) claims. He concluded Agent Orange was not considered a poison under international law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law) at the time of its use by the U.S.; the U.S. was not prohibited from using it as a herbicide; and the companies which produced the substance were not liable for the method of its use by the government. The U.S. government was not a party in the lawsuit, due to sovereign immunity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity), and the court ruled the chemical companies, as contractors of the US government, shared the same immunity. The case was appealed and heard by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Circuit_Court_of_Appeals) on June 18, 2007. The Court of Appeals upheld the dismissal of the case, stating the herbicides used during the war were not intended to be used to poison humans and therefore did not violate international law.[73] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-72) The US Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Supreme_Court) declined to consider the case.
Three judges on the Second Circuit Court of Appeals in Manhattan heard the appeal on June 18, 2007. They upheld Weinstein's ruling to dismiss the case. They ruled that, though the herbicides contained a dioxin (a known poison), they were not intended to be used as a poison on humans. Therefore, they were not considered a chemical weapon and thus not a violation of international law. A further review of the case by the whole panel of judges of the Court of Appeals also confirmed this decision. The lawyers for the Vietnamese filed a petition to the US Supreme Court to hear the case. On March 2, 2009, the Supreme Court denied certiorari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certiorari) and refused to reconsider the ruling of the Court of Appeals.[74] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-73)
In a November 2004 Zogby International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zogby_International) poll of 987 people, 79% of respondents thought the US chemical companies which produced Agent Orange defoliant should compensate US soldiers who were affected by the toxic chemical used during the war in Vietnam. 51% said they supported compensation for Vietnamese Agent Orange victims.[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-74)
Help for those affected in Vietnam

To assist those who have been affected by Agent Orange/dioxin, the Vietnamese have established "peace villages", which each host between 50 and 100 victims, giving them medical and psychological help. As of 2006, there were 11 such villages, thus granting some social protection to fewer than a thousand victims. U.S. veterans of the war in Vietnam and individuals who are aware and sympathetic to the impacts of Agent Orange have supported these programs in Vietnam. An international group of veterans from the U.S. and its allies during the Vietnam War working with their former enemy — veterans from the Vietnam Veterans Association — established the Vietnam Friendship Village[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-75) outside of Hanoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanoi).
The center provides medical care, rehabilitation and vocational training for children and veterans from Vietnam who have been affected by Agent Orange. In 1998, The Vietnam Red Cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Red_Cross) established the Vietnam Agent Orange Victims Fund to provide direct assistance to families throughout Vietnam that have been affected. In 2003, the Vietnam Association of Victims of Agent Orange (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vietnam_Association_of_Victims_of_Agent_Oran ge&action=edit&redlink=1) (VAVA) was formed. In addition to filing the lawsuit against the chemical companies, VAVA provides medical care, rehabilitation services and financial assistance to those injured by Agent Orange.[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-76)
The Vietnamese government provides small monthly stipends to more than 200,000 Vietnamese believed affected by the herbicides; this totaled $40.8 million in 2008 alone. The Vietnam Red Cross has raised more than $22 million to assist the ill or disabled, and several U.S. foundations, United Nations agencies, European governments and nongovernmental organizations have given a total of about $23 million for site cleanup, reforestation, health care and other services to those in need.[78] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-77)
Vuong Mo of the Vietnam News Agency described one of centers:[79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-78)
"May is 13, but she knows nothing, is unable to talk fluently, nor walk with ease due to for her bandy legs. Her father is dead and she has four elder brothers, all mentally retarded ... The students are all disabled, retarded and of different ages. Teaching them is a hard job. They are of the 3rd grade but many of them find it hard to do the reading. Only a few of them can. Their pronunciation is distorted due to their twisted lips and their memory is quite short. They easily forget what they've learned ... In the Village, it is quite hard to tell the kids' exact ages. Some in their twenties have a physical statures as small as the 7- or 8-years-old. They find it difficult to feed themselves, much less have mental ability or physical capacity for work. No one can hold back the tears when seeing the heads turning round unconsciously, the bandy arms managing to push the spoon of food into the mouths with awful difficulty ... Yet they still keep smiling, singing in their great innocence, at the presence of some visitors, craving for something beautiful." On June 16, 2010, members of the U.S.-Vietnam Dialogue Group on Agent Orange/Dioxin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_U.S.-Vietnam_Dialogue_Group_on_Agent_Orange/Dioxin) unveiled a comprehensive 10-year Declaration and Plan of Action to address the toxic legacy of Agent Orange and other herbicides in Vietnam. The Plan of Action was released as an Aspen Institute publication and calls upon the U.S. and Vietnamese governments to join with other governments, foundations, businesses, and nonprofits in a partnership to clean up dioxin "hot spots" in Vietnam and to expand humanitarian services for people with disabilities there.[80] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-chicagotribune.com-79)[81] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-80)[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-81) On September 16, 2010, Senator Patrick Leahy (D-VT) acknowledged the work of the Dialogue Group by releasing a statement on the floor of the United States Senate. The statement urges the U.S. government to take the Plan of Action's recommendations into account in developing a multi-year plan of activities to address the Agent Orange/dioxin legacy.[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#cite_note-82)

[Courtney Mil]

Close the thread.

[500N]

Milo

He states he has 800 hours to his credit and is doing his IR.
I think he might be older than you think.
Even so, he reminds me of SAMXXV.

Jakey, you have the right because people like most of those on this forum (not me) in previous years stopped you from having to live in a totalitarian regime and speaking German or if things turned out differently Japanese or maybe even Russian.

Give it a break.

[airpolice]

he reminds me of SAMXXV


Indeed..............

[Willard Whyte]

Now jakey, always ready with a cut 'n paste I see.

Did you research NVA massacres of S Vietnamese civilians following the Tet Offensive? Or in Hue? What of the 30,000+ assassinations of teachers, civil servants et al?

Not a peep from you, I note.

[Jakey]

WW

I actually spent a lot of time in Viet Nam over the last 24 months.

I was utterly applled at many things, and moreover, moreso with regard to Pol Pot next door in Cambodia (as an aside, the UN still recognised him as the leader of Cam up until 2001!!!)

Visiting the Killing Field, Tung-Sol and S21 were amazing, distressing and utterly humbling experiences.

One of the things I learned, from Nate Thayer to be exact, was that Dow had deliberately increased the power of AO on US military instruction, to something like ten times what was needed. Thayer is an amazing man.

[Bing]

I am standing up for what I believe in, and what the majority of sane people in civilian life believe.

On an internet forum, hardly manning the barricades is it?

[Courtney Mil]

He's grandsatnading, my friends. Replies are only supporting his cause.

[Marcantilan]

From the Iranian point of view, that would be a fairer point were it not for the Greenback Poultice administered, see above.
In detail:
a. The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of innocent human life. The government never admitted wrongdoing, and did not accept responsibility nor submit an apology to the Iranian government.

My guess: That probably has to do with, were an apology and "admission" be on record, a larger claim could be made in a court. POLITICS and LAWYERs are involved. Perhaps money too.

ALSO, you are reminded of the POLITICAL context of the time. The year was 1988.

In February 1996 the United States agreed to pay Iran US$131.8 million in settlement to discontinue a case --

Settled out of court. This is a common exercise of justice being done, of a sort. It appears that US$61.8 million of the claim was in compensation for the 248 Iranians killed in the shoot-down.

Here's the political kicker: The payment of compensation was explicitly characterized by the US as being on an ex gratia basis, and the U.S. denied having any responsibility or liability for what happened.

See above, my observations on POLITICS and LAWYERs being involved in any formal declaration made differently than was done. Welcome to the real world.

We agree that the US Government paid for its civil liability as the overall responsible subject (have in mind that compensations are usually paid "without recognition of any fact or right", but no such obligation sine causa exists...)

But still the CO of the Vinceness went home without a criminal file after him (which is not related to the above mentioned payment)

Also, is interesting to note that what Mr. CO did is more or less considered a terrorism act for many modern legislations.

[Jakey]

Agreed. Also, the valuation disparity in compensation between 655 and Pan Am 103 is utterly laughable.

And without question it would be considered terrorism by many.

The old adage- one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

[sitigeltfel]

Maybe "Jakey" should have put in a bit of research before choosing his user name. Us Scots can hardly stop laughing :p

[Jakey]

Can I ask a hypothetical question? (I will anyway...)

If that was a US airliner shot down in US waters by an Iranian ship, how would the Americans have reacted?

What would they have done?

[airpolice]

Gonnae no dae that?

[Jakey]

Oh and also, surely, and obviously from the ripostes on here, there's loads of experienced servicemen reading this, the attack profile of an incoming military jet is wholly and entirely different to an airliner cruising or climbing?

Surely an experienced Captain would see this? I mean he was the CO of a state of the art warship....

[airpolice]

Jakey, yer bang on the money there. Rule 46 of military air combat specifically precludes acting like an airliner.

You are not allowed to pretend to be a civvy aircraft in order to sneak up on a warship.

Everyone knows that.

[Jakey]

Occam's razor, Airpolice.

Don't cut your own throat (or own argument) with it.

[Lonewolf_50]

Merc:

The year is 2012.

You are invited to recall that in politics, change is the rule, and perception is a tool, not a reality. What perceptions were in 1988 and what they are in 2012 are subject to change for whatever reasons one can invent.

See Milo's point. The Captain answered for his actions to his chain of command, who had every opportunity to choose to take criminal steps. Such things have happened before. The decision made at the political level were that, among other things, his actions did not involve him losing any of his people, nor his ship, no matter how badly that went for the people in the Airbus. Unlike KAL 007, he did not have a chance at a VID. (That doesn't exonerate his decision making, however: see the long debate in United States Naval Institutes Proceedings, if you are actually interested).

To restate the point: the final decision on his fate, court martial or not, was not well received even by all of his own peers. Some agreed that he was, by our system, set up. Others considered his judgment so bad that it warranted at the least relief from command. Still others suggested more than that, on the basis of the authority/accountability mix of being a Captain at sea.

Note that you may wish to consider: when a CO of a ship has a collision at sea, even if nobody dies, it is common to see him relieved of command.

Compare that to shooting down an airliner, even by accident.

You must thus factor in the POLITICAL issue before you go any further, because his ship being there was MASSIVELY POLITICAL in nature. The political climate in the US had a non trivial influence on this case, and that climate was informed in part by a dislike, to say the least, of Iran and Iranians since the Hostage situation when the Ayatollah and his crew took over.

Attempting to analyze this in absence of that element of the problem strikes me as naive.

Just as an aside: are you from Argentina, or just living there?

If you are of Argentina, I find it droll for you to assert a point on "principles" given the rubbish from that end of the world on the Falkland Islands. I also see that Frau K has tried on this nonsense yet again.

POLITICS: it dirties everything it touches.

[Avionker]

And what is the attack profile of an Anti Ship Missile then?

And Jakey just remember, the armed forces of a democratic country do the bidding of the government of the day. The government that is elected by the 'sane civilian population' as I believe you phrased it.

[Jakey]

Shy Talk

You're either taking the p*ss or you're a troll?

Surely no-one could possibly agree with me on this?

[Jakey]

And what is the attack profile of an Anti Ship Missile then?

And Jakey just remember, the armed forces of a democratic country do the bidding of the government of the day. The government that is elected by the 'sane civilian population' as I believe you phrased it.

FOAD, the ship was in Iranian waters (a fact the US military tried at one point to actually misrepresent!). It fired on an Iranian civilian aircraft, without any certainty it was a) attacking them b) it was a miliary aircraft.

There was, all along, huge doubt. A huge mistake, horrendous, but also hideously misjudged, with not one, but many cock-ups in the decision making and judgment chain.

By any definition, that is an act of terrorism.

[Lonewolf_50]

If you flip it to be the shootdown in US waters of a US airliner by an Iranian warship, the howls of condemnation from the US would be loud indeed.
Likely more than talk, likely more than just howls.
There'd be a blood price exacted, if the last ten to twelve years is any indication.

As to the apology, not in general disagreement, as noted above.

What puzzles me on that score is how the administration at the time, internally but very for the benefit of the American public, basically admitted that it was in error.

As before, POLITICS is involved.

[Jakey]

Lonewolf,

Whilst I disagree firmly with some of your views, I would at least totally agree with you about politics, and the greed for power and wealth.

At the end of the day, this was all about oil. Nothing else, nothing more.

The US Government couldn't give a fig for the majority of atrocities committed in many countries provided they get their oil and other stuff (their covert support of the Pol Pot regime is proof enough of this).

As luck would have it, I was in Tehran during the overthrowing of the Shah. I spent a short time there as a kid, and it was amazingly westernised. It's a great shame that whatever flag you fight for, you fight for politicians, not your people.

[Marcantilan]

Attemptign to analyze this in absence of that element of the problem strikes me as deliberately dishonest, or just naive.

I realize the political aspect of the problem and I could answer myself the question "Why?" Still, I considered a shame that Mr. CO was not prosecuted. US sent a wrong signal with it.

Just as an aside: are you from Argentina, or just living there?

If you are of Argentina, I find it droll for you to assert a point on "principles" given the rubbish from that end of the world on the Falkland Islands. I also see that Frau K has tried on this nonsense yet again.

Yes, from Argentina.

I don´t like Ms. K, less her manners. But I don´t agree with you about the Malvinas and, surely, I have full rights to voice my opinion in this subjetc.

[Jakey]

As someone English, I fail to see how we can realistically own Islands the other side of the world. Or really fairly want to.*

It's like the Isle of Wight being owned by China.

(*unless of course there's huge antarctic mineral rights involved...)

[Biggus]

Jakey,

No doubt Occam's razor would convince the Trojans that the wooden horse was safe to bring inside the walls of the city - it couldn't possibly contain some Greek troops that would come out at night and open the city gates...

Ruse of war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruse_of_war)


While not saying it applies in this particular case - adopting the profile of an airliner has been used by military aircraft to obtain a tactical advantage, indeed as a concept it appeared in commercial print as long ago as 1966:

The Penetrators by Anthony Gray - Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2242170.The_Penetrators)


I would suggest that relying on Occam's razor when making military decisions is a somewhat flawed policy!!

[Jakey]

Biggus

That is the whole argument in a nutshell.

The captain judged on military protocol. Had he have accepted he was acting without any form of international manifesto, in foreign and non-militarised waters, he would have judged on civilian protocol.

Thus, his judgement was severely flawed and it was exactly his failure to accept that things were as they appeared that forced the paranoid search for imaginary evidence.

(the only other possible explanation, and quite a plausible one, is it was a stitch-up on him by the US governement)

[Avionker]

By any definition, that is an act of terrorism.

No, it is not.

Proposed Comprehensive Convention on International Terrorism
Since 2000, the United Nations General Assembly has been negotiating a Comprehensive Convention on International Terrorism. The definition of the crime of terrorism, which has been on the negotiating table since 2002 reads as follows:
"1. Any person commits an offence within the meaning of this Convention if that person, by any means, unlawfully and intentionally, causes:
(a) Death or serious bodily injury to any person; or
(b) Serious damage to public or private property, including a place of public use, a State or government facility, a public transportation system, an infrastructure facility or the environment; or
(c) Damage to property, places, facilities, or systems referred to in paragraph 1 (b) of this article, resulting or likely to result in major economic loss, when the purpose of the conduct, by its nature or context, is to intimidate a population, or to compel a Government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act."[36]
That definition is not controversial in itself; the deadlock in the negotiations arises instead from the opposing views on whether such a definition would be applicable to the armed forces of a state and to Self-determination movements. Thalif Deen described the situation as follows: "The key sticking points in the draft treaty revolve around several controversial yet basic issues, including the definition of ´terrorism´. For example, what distinguishes a "terrorist organisation" from a 'liberation movement'? And do you exclude activities of national armed forces, even if they are perceived to commit acts of terrorism? If not, how much of this constitutes 'state terrorism'?"[37] The coordinator of the negotiations, supported by most western delegations, proposed the following exceptions to address those issues:
"1. Nothing in this Convention shall affect other rights, obligations and responsibilities of States, peoples and individuals under international law, in particular the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, and international humanitarian law.
2. The activities of armed forces during an armed conflict, as those terms are understood under international humanitarian law, which are governed by that law, are not governed by this Convention.
3. The activities undertaken by the military forces of a State in the exercise of their official duties, inasmuch as they are governed by other rules of international law, are not governed by this Convention.
4. Nothing in this article condones or makes lawful otherwise unlawful acts, nor precludes prosecution under other laws."[38]

I do not disagree that the shooting down of that aircraft was a gross error of judgement.

I strongly disagree that it was a terrorist act. It was not murder. It was an error of judgement with tragic results. Whether you choose to accept it or not the CO of the USS Vincennes believed that his vessel and crew were under threat of attack. He reacted to protect his crew, as he was trained, paid and expected to do.

[Roadster280]

As someone English, I fail to see how we can realistically own Islands the other side of the world. Or really fairly want to.*

It's like the Isle of Wight being owned by China.

Did some big kid steal your lunch money when you were in short pants?

Are you really that naive?

[Avionker]

It's a great shame that whatever flag you fight for, you fight for politicians, not your people.

Who elects those politicians then? Oh that's right, the people do.....

As anyone who has ever served will tell you if it comes down to fighting then your fighting for your mates, no one else.

[green granite]

One of the things I learned, from Nate Thayer to be exact, was that Dow had deliberately increased the power of AO on US military instruction, to something like ten times what was needed. Thayer is an amazing man.

Jakey

First of all who exactly is Nate Thayer, and what are his qualifications to make that statement, or is he just a clever communist propagandist who has brainwashed you ?

What proof do you have of that allegation against Dow? What proof do you have that even if it was in a super-concentrated form it wasn't just to reduce the problem of transportation of the bulk liquid out to the airbases in South Vietnam and that the air-force didn't dilute it down to it's normal strength?

If you cannot show absolute proof of that statement of yours then your creditability on here drops to zero.

[Jakey]

Actually, I retract- you are right.

It was, more accurately an act of war.

[Jakey]

I'm actually not that worried about cred after reading some of the opinions on here.

It's a million miles away from almost everyone else's opinion I've ever encountered on the matter.

[Lonewolf_50]

Merc:
Yes, from Argentina.
Cheers.
I realize the political aspect of the problem and I could answer myself the question "Why?" Still, I considered a shame that Mr. CO was not prosecuted. US sent a wrong signal with it.

For the year 2012? Perhaps.
In the year 1988, not so much.
Why not take yourself back to the political climate of 1988.
President Reagan and his team played to internal crowd, as well as international crowd. What I find more intriguing is how his successor, GWH Bush, chose not to tidy up that loose end. That was left for Clinton to clean up. Consider why that is.
The home crowd (well, a considerable portion of it) had little sympathy for much of anything Iranian at the time, except for the expats who'd been tossed out by those Ayatollah clowns.

I try to remember this matter of playing to different crowds when the current president of Iran runs off at the mouth about Israel, and other matters. Some of my friends get all up in arms over that.
I don't.
Some of his rhetoric is aimed explicitly at his home crowd. ;)
I don´t like Ms. K, less her manners. But I don´t agree with you about the Malvinas and, surely, I have full rights to voice my opinion in this subject
Absolutely have the right, and I never said otherwise.
By all means, speak up about the Falklands from whatever Point of View that makes the most sense to you.

Last time around the political justification was sold, and if I don't mistake it, bought by at least a portion of the Argentine population. The home crowd, or at least part of it, were on board.

Curious (and not on topic for this thread):
How are Frau K's sales figures on the Falklands issue (to her and thee, Las Malvinas), in the bazaar of political ideas in Argentina?

How much of the home crowd is "on side" with her rhetoric on that score?

[Jakey]

Quote:
As someone English, I fail to see how we can realistically own Islands the other side of the world. Or really fairly want to.*

It's like the Isle of Wight being owned by China.
Did some big kid steal your lunch money when you were in short pants?

Are you really that naive?

No, but you clearly are!!

[Lonewolf_50]

Jakey:
It was, more accurately an act of war.
You could make that argument if you could show that it was deliberate. For all the noise you've made here, that is one of the more intelligent things you've posted: the Iranian government could have characterized that incident as an act of war.

More technically, it could be termed casus belli.

Strangely enough, the Iranians didn't follow through, even though our political relations at the time were abysmal.

Any idea why that might be?

[Avionker]

Precipitated by Iranian forces opening fire on the Vincennes's helicopter earlier that day. Also an act of war? Perhaps if you dropped the anti-military and anti-US rhetoric, and accepted that this is not a black and white situation you would garner more support for your arguments.

[Jakey]

Strangely enough, the Iranians didn't follow through, even though our political relations at the time were abysmal.

Any idea why that might be?

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7301146&noquote=1)

General wisdom is that US desperate to have Lib and Iran onside for war v Saddam? A deal would be struck.

[Jakey]

Avioniker,

I gander no support, as everything I've seen convinces me further; as every single argument against the actions of the captain is frighteningly weak. Even on a Military forum it's tough to come up with anything other than excuses for his actions based upon the supposition that he was acting with international empowerment.

He was in Iranian waters. He didn't have that right.

The only thing I absolutely agree with is the political motives alluded to by Lonewolf and others.

[Milo Minderbinder]

"that Dow had deliberately increased the power of AO"
So what?
It wasn't the 24-Dichlorophenoxyacetic acid or 2,4,5-Trichlorophenoxyacetic acid that caused the problem.
It was the various dioxin impurities.
And as has already been asked - what qualifications does that guy have to make that statement, and what does it mean anyway? There would be an effective dosage rate for spraying. Increasing the concentration would under many circumstances actually reduce the area covered because you'd be spraying in too concentrated a form. Basically the statement is invalid

Don't forget Dow were not the only manufacturers of 24-D/24,5-TCP
You also had Monsanto and Diamond Shamrock making large volumes, and a number of smaller companies as well. The stuff was actually developed in the UK at Rothamstead during WWII and a number of UK companies made it. I've packed down several tonnes of it into small bottles over the years, and I'm still here to tell the tale

Its clear from your comment that you know SFA about phenoxy herbicides so by mentioning them all you do is undermine what little case you may have.
For what its worth - 2,4-D is till manufactrured in the UK and is still available fro use

[Jakey]

Milo

Maybe not as much knowledge as you clearly, but I did see the human tragedy it causes and continues to cause, which is huge.

[airpolice]

I thought that line about about Apocalypse Now being a story of Man's inhumanity to Man was just bollocks. It was just a war movie with Helicopters in it.

Great stuff.

[Avionker]

Jakey,

If you go back through the thread how many people are saying that he didn't cock-up big time? What I, and I think many others, take issue with is the use of emotive terms such as terrorism and murder. The statement that the lives of military personnel are worth less than civilians was insulting beyond belief.

Why wasn't he prosecuted? Well it would appear that politics came into play there and politics are out with the remit of the military. Those decisions are made by the elected representatives of the people.

The CO and the crew of the Vincennes were doing their jobs, he and some others did it badly and a tragedy occurred, on that we can all agree I think.

[Flightmech]

What Avionker said.....

[green granite]

Or in other words Jakey you cant prove any of your statement so your credibility is a big fat ZERO. I suggest you go home to bed now and don't forget to wash behind your ears.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Bugger all to do with the thread:


As someone English, I fail to see how we can realistically own Islands the other side of the world. Or really fairly want to.*

It's like the Isle of Wight being owned by China.


Ask an average Falkland Islander that question sometime. The reply might surprise you. On your last point, have you asked many Hong Kong Chinese for their thoughts on the hand over?

I love the Bennies. These days, they are more British than we are. Apart from the goose s**t and the near perpetual not kind to light aeroplane WX, I think I could happily live there

[ratty1]

but I did see the human tragedy it causes and continues to cause, which is huge.
Bloody civvy bed wetters clogging up this Military Aircrew forum. If you have an issue get a tissue and get your mummy to wipe your tears away.:rolleyes:

[airpolice]

Ratty, that's the spirit!

If they didn't want to be blown up then they shouldn't have been the enemy.

Simples!


FOAD, the ship was in Iranian waters

Jakey, who is this FOAD you speak of?

[500N]

airpolice

re " Jakey, who is this FOAD you speak of?"

means "F@#k off and die"


He is really showing his age and that he is losing the discussion
by resorting to that level.

[ratty1]

they shouldn't have been the enemy.

What have an English Indie rock band formed in 2006 in Coventry got to do with this?

[El Grifo]

Gotta hand it to Jakey !

Persistant and un-flappable.

Go for it boy :}

[airpolice]

Are you sure it was Coventry?

I thought they used to meet up in the motorcycle museum at the NEC. Before the fire obviously.

[airpolice]

El Grifo, this American who came into your shop asking about a plane crash, d'you think he could have been in the US navy?

[500N]

airpolice

Now that is lateral thinking !

[ratty1]

Yep.
Drummer Liam Watts and bass player Andy Hopkins originate from Coventry, while frontman and multi-instrumentalist Tom Clarke[/URL] is originally from Birmingham. Clarke and Hopkins attended [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finham_Park_School"]Finham Park Secondary School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clarke) in the city, while Watts studied at Cardinal Newman secondary school.
The Enemy met their original manager, John Dawkins, because Watts' aunt worked with one of Dawkins' family members. Dawkins asked producer Matt Terry to do him a favor and give the band cheap studio time. Terry then produced their first set of three songs: 'Heart Attack', 'Had Enough' and '40 Days and 40 Nights'. Dawkins then forwarded the demos to David Bianchi at A&R Warner.
In 2006 the band were the opening act at Coventry's Godiva Festival (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godiva_Festival), an event they would play for the next 2 years, making their way to the headline slot.

[airpolice]

500N, well it would explain why they can't find the wreckage. The timing seems about right for when the Captain got retired instead of making Admiral.

And, it fits with the Revered Timothy wanting to hush up the old guy's military service in case any more pipe bombs, or agent orange, come along.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Still a Troll though!!
:\

[airpolice]

What a small world, there's a Cardinal Newman High School near to one of our navex turning points and as it is such a big 45degree slab sided building, more or less south west facing, to catch the sunlight, it is unmistakeable.

I was in Coventry recently, at a bacon processing plant, where they put Pigs in Pokes, as it were.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Something else that needs pointing out
He keeps spouting that the Vincennes was in iranian territorial water - well it would have to be either in Iranian or Omani

To quote from Wikidepedia (yes I know....)
"As the Strait of Hormuz at its narrowest is just 21 nautical miles (39 km) wide, in order to traverse the strait ships must stay within sea lanes that pass through the territorial waters of Iran and Oman under the transit passage provisions of customary Law of the Sea. It is therefore normal for ships, including warships, entering or leaving the Persian Gulf to transit Iranian territorial waters"
So its not as if the Vincennes being there was ana ct of territorial aggressions: it was no different from the Russkies transiting the English Channel with their carrier.
Where it WAS different was that at the time there was a shooting match going on with a bunch of Iranian speedboats. The Iranian authorities must have known this, yet they allowed a civilian aircraft to overfly a live firing zone. Life is cheap in Iran. it wouldn't surprise me at all if they deliberately risked the loss of the aircraft in an attempt to gain international sympathy.
As I said before on another thread, I'm convinced from what I witnessed of their chemical supply route that they were gassing their own people to gain sympathy, it wouldn't surprise me if a aircraft full of people were equally regarded as disposable, just to gain a political point.

[backTOfront]

Jakey,

What I want you to do is picture your 10 closet family members/ friends.

Now, picture you are somewhere out in the countryside shooting birds, or clay pigeons. So you have a loaded weapon, ok?!

Now, in the distance you see a group of guys walking directly towards your party. They are obviously not part of your social circle. Just think of it that you are wearing tweed with pink shirts with a few labradors and they are in scruffy jeans, dishevelled, long hair.

So these guys are walking towards you for no apparent reason and they don't look really friendly. So as these guys keep walking towards you, you and your group will obviously be getting a bit concerned.

As they get closer you realise that they all are carrying guns. At no point have they waved or called out to you. They just keep walking, menacing in your mind, towards your sacred lil group of friends and family.

They are now about 20m from you and you and your group are getting really nervous, I mean who wouldn't be. These guys don't look friendly, they are armed and they are don't look like they want to talk about the canapés you are having for lunch.

So they are 20m away when all of a sudden the guy in the front raises his shotgun towards you and your lil group.

Now, you can either sit there and do nothing and hope he doesn't shoot and your lil group or you can take pre-emptive action and shoot him.

What do you do?

Now: Before you answer, picture in your mind this scenario. Take the time to think of your family and friends.

This is the sort of scenario the Capt of that vessel was going through.

What happens if you shot this guy with the shotgun? It is self defence and you will not be charged in the eyes of the law.

Hang on, what happens if it turns out the gun was a replica or a toy and the guy was playing a prank on you? It is still self defence as you had the HONEST belief that your life or your friends/ families' lives were in mortal danger. Now if you blasted the rest of this group away, and none of the others raised a weapon, then it is disproportionate and it is classed as murder.

This USN Captain had the honest belief his vessel was in mortal danger, rightly or wrongly and he acted on it. It is an act he will replay the rest of his life and regret no doubt. Then again, what if he was right.

As I said before, picture that vessel as a group of your closest friends and family. Oh, and you are in sole charge of that group. It is your responsibility that they come away from the weekend shooting safe and sound, no one else's.

Just food for thought.

Backtofront - out

[500N]

air police

Didn't they make Black Pudding in Coventry ?

(I am originally from Birmingham but lived in Shenstone near Litchfield, born where the Spaghetti junction now is !!!)


Re the crash, maybe they hushed it all up because it was on a secret hush hush mission carrying unmentionables ?

Or maybe he could have been another of "The Man who never was" situations ?

What do you think ?

[500N]

Milo
"As the Strait of Hormuz at its narrowest is just 21 nautical miles (39 km) wide, in order to traverse the strait ships must stay within sea lanes that pass through the territorial waters of Iran and Oman under the transit passage provisions of customary Law of the Sea. It is therefore normal for ships, including warships, entering or leaving the Persian Gulf to transit Iranian territorial waters""

State the obvious.
He should have known that before he started the argument.
I didn't even bother pointing it out as he would have ignored it.

[airpolice]

I'll tell you what I think.... The guy who runs our local Butchers hasn't been winning prizes for as long as we can remember without knowing about making pies and black pudding.

We reckon that because his pies are so good, there must be some kind of secret ingredient that nobody else has in their pies. Probably babies.

[ratty1]

What do you think ?
http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee333/Junkers08/Random%20Pictures/who-cares.jpg
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[airpolice]

I think you ****** up the picture!

Ah, now it all becomes clear. Funny as a funny thing.

[Milo Minderbinder]

"He should have known that before he started the argument."

Yeah I know I'm stating the obvious, but I fear we are dealing with someone who is either hard-of-thinking, or suffering from willful selective observation

[ratty1]

Crikey Milo your post count is 5.88 per day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You need to move away from your keyboard more often.

[500N]

Ratty

Colonel Kluster F%#k is not a good example of an air force officer :O

People might get the wrong idea !


Milo
"willful selective observation" sums it up well.

[airpolice]

Ratty, he's a newbie, it's not as impressive as you might think!

[jamesdevice]

"Crikey Milo your post count is 5.88 per day"

I actually think its higher than that....:O

[ratty1]

I guess he is another one of the bed wetting civvies that haunt this Military Aircrew forum. Got to love these groupies.

[airpolice]

I don't think so, he's very well connected, but with so much time on his hands he must be still in the mob or working for a local authority and doing the pprune stuff while at work.

Either way, in 29 minutes his stats should change.

[Milo Minderbinder]

who are you calling a groupie? Anyway most of my posts are in the computing forum

[500N]

jamesdevice

"I actually think its higher than that....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif"

Just like yours ?:O:ok:

[jamesdevice]

something like that.....
anyway they let me back in

[airpolice]

I had to look up the Liam Watts thing and found he was the drummer, y'know, that's what they call a guy who hangs around with a bunch of musicians.

[ratty1]

Do you have two computers to keep logging in as milo and James?

[airpolice]

In the words of John Lennon:

When asked whether or not he believed Ringo Starr to be the best drummer in the world. "He's not even the best drummer in The Beatles!"

[randyrippley]

So whats the derivation of this Scots word "Jakey"?

[500N]

An alcoholic or along those lines.


I think their are lots of other connotations, all bad that go along with the word
apart from alcoholic that a quick google search would bring up.

[randyrippley]

Ah - maybe that explains it

[ratty1]

According to the Urban Dictionary "A member of the street drinking fraternity
Etymology - believed to have been derived from jackdaw and jake (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jake) which is scots for a cheap strong drink."

[airpolice]

Imagine, if you will, a Scot that even the Scots feel they can look down on.

Usually a permadrunk, benefit based and rude life form with no morals and even fewer traces of hot soapy water, but the uncanny ability to find the means of getting drunk by breakfast time.

I'm away to search you tube for a chewin the fat video which shows the beast in natural surroundings.

[Milo Minderbinder]

I've got a pal called Jake
he's got a private wood / nature reserve with around 30 "tame" badgers, he feeds them most nights and they run around his feet in a big gang
Been to help / watch several times, quite impressive

[airpolice]

I read something about them being the dry land version of Dolphins. They are really clever and if only they had opposable thumbs they might well have been the master race after the last ice age.

[randyrippley]

dunno about that, but they can open cans and bottles with their teeth

[airpolice]

Milo wrote: t was no different from the Russkies transiting the English Channel with their carrier.

So I wondered............ do the French call it the English Channel? That must be a bitter pill for le frogs, non?

[airpolice]

Well done guys, that was a load of laughs. I can't play any more as my PM inbox is full, and I have to work tomorrow so that I can fly on Thursday.

AP

[jamesdevice]

Pas de Calais?
Le Manche (or something like)

they think its theirs of course.

You do realise that before Doggerland flooded it was the outlet to the Atlantic for the Thames and the Rhine?

[diginagain]

If you think badgers are clever, what about the Orang-utan? While us smart-arses need both hands to peel a banana, they've evolved to doing the job single-handed. Which is always handy when you live hanging off a tree.

[Milo Minderbinder]

maybe they can peel a banana singlehanded, but have you ever seen one wipe its backside?

[diginagain]

To be fair, it isn't something that keeps me awake at night, Milo..........

[dermedicus]

Food for thought with the defence of London and the Olympics coming up.

Otherwise a completely pointless thread. Perhaps Jakey could start a thread about the whole of World War One for us to discuss?

[MFC_Fly]

Strange how Jakey hasn't posted since 2203 hrs - I bet his PC clock is slightly out and his mummy and daddy set his parental controls to block Internet access from 2200 hrs :ok:

[green granite]

Why do you think I reminded him to wash behind his ears? :)

[Jakey]

Morning boys..

I floated this on 4 or 5 forums yesterday- most agreed, save for this one. I wanted to prove that there is a totally different perspective and slightly warped perspective about this in military circles.

I was right.

You should really look at the disclaimer about journo's.

I'll leave you in peace now. I've gathered what I need.

Thanks for playing.

Laterz

x

[airpolice]

I'm still wonder who might actually give a flying **** what anyone thinks.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Yer still a Troll...a journo Troll!!!

(I refer my esteemed military colleagues to post #4!!)

[Milo Minderbinder]

Jakey Lefty Journalist

theres a flaw in your plan
how do you know the people posting here actually are in military circles?
Many of them here I know to be just as much impostors as yourself.

And many of those who are not imposters, retired 20 or 30 years go and can hardly be regarded as representative of the modern military.

On the other hand, maybe the fact that you think there is a "totally different perspective" here is due to the fact that some of the posters here have actually gone out and stared death in the face - and survived. Just maybe they know something that you don't. And who are you to judge their perspective as "warped" with regard to that of anyone else? Who appointed you jury, judge and god?

[Lima Juliet]

Jakey

If you are a journo, what were these other forums you canvassed for opinion? Are we looking at another piece of idiotic journalistic reporting where interviews with ill-informed and ill-educated nit-wits outside Poundland that are interviewed about the balance-of-payments?

To balance your argument, you need to provide links to these other forums so that we can see what others are saying.

Now here's the really controversial piece from my side regarding opinions and democracy; should you be able to hold an opinion and be able to vote on something that you cannot demonstrably show any knowledge of? A good example is the Scottish vote, there are a lot of people North of the Border that have no idea what such a vote would do. Even if the issues were spelt out in black and white, some of them would still not understand. As long as they get their 16-pack of Tennants, 100x fags and Scottish Premiership on TV, they really don't put much more effort into needing to understand things. Other examples in the UK are: The Euro Referendum, the Libor "scandal", public sector pensions, the NHS, etc... The real scandle is the media, their power to manipulate the ill-educated masses and their lack of moral compass - anything will be said that will shift papers!

I can see a point fast approaching, when the ill-informed majority will far outweigh the educated minority - in fact Nu-Labours dumbing down of society for 13+ years following Major's policy of turning into the UK into a bunch of "shop keepers" has done irreperable damage IMHO. Your inability to listen to people close to the field of your research is case in point, where it looks like you will use an ill-informed majority to "spin" the answer that you want in order to sell copy of a grotty little article.

But, hey, I guess that's democracy for you; it works if the populace is educated and falls down if not.

I gave up reading newspapers several years ago when exposed to the real-world in an all-seeing post close to uncluttered intelligence - at that point I was almost floored by the realisation that barely 20% in the daily newspapers and journals is actually true!

LJ

[airpolice]

Milo, you have no idea how right you are with some of that!

[dermedicus]

Assuming Jakey is a journalist, such methods are a super illustration of the lack of depth to modern reporting. Canvass opinions from an anonyous online forum and pass it off as proof? The Age in Melbourne have certainly, and somewhat unashamedly, done so in the past with an article I can no longer find which proclaimed that the British were returning en masse to the UK from Australia based on reading a pomsinoz forum thread!

The disappointing thing is that some will take what Jakey or journos in general write and use it as their opinion. So much simpler than forming your own.

[dermedicus]

In deference to some journalists though, there is every chance that some trolls on here have no actual gainful employment but instead run a blog with a readership of four where they present opinions as fact and dream that oneday a fifth person may read the blog.

[Jakey]

You might wanna wait until you see what I've written....

Even old William got a fairish hearing, yeah?

x

[MFC_Fly]

How can we see what you have written unless you give us your name and who you 'write' for?

[Spudh]

One point that hasn't been made is that the bogie was identifed as an F-14.

Incredibly capable fighter but in 1988 it wasn't exactly king kong of the air to surface battleground. IIRC it had precisly no stand-off anti ship capability at that stage. I don't believe the Iranians ever used the F-14 in ground attack at all, it was too valuable an asset in its primary role to be risked with dumb bombs.

Also 350knots is no where near what it would be doing in an attack profile irrespective of whether it actually descended or not. I know we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight but I think the decision process was heavily flawed.

So while I agree that the captain did fire in belief that he was defending his ship, and hence not culpable of anything approaching murder, his threat analysis was very poor and he was wrong with tragic consequences. Also awarding the guy an honour was very wrong.

What was the minimum range the USS Vincennes could engage at? Surely there are optical instruments on a cruiser capable of visually identifying a threat outside of minimum range. Even fighters have to visually acquire a threat before firing, is it different for a ship?

Re comparing this to KAL007, I don't believe they are comparable, the pilot of the Sukhoi Su-15 fighter knew full well it was a Korean airlines 747 before he fired a missile. He actually fired his gun across the nose of the 747 before retreating to safe distance for a missile shot. He never told GC it was a PA 'because they never asked'.
So Jakey if you want a murder trial go chase the Russian pilot not the Yankie captain who at least thought he was firing on a fighter (even if the most it could do was sonic boom him).

[Lima Juliet]

With words like

Laterz and wanna

I wouldn't even wrap my fish and chips in what you're planning to write. :ugh:

[airpolice]

At the risk of opening up old sores.... Spud is yet another name with unfortunate connotations in Scotland.

The character from Trainspotting who regularly ****s the bed, and isn't too bright.

[Lima Juliet]

Spud

The Iranians are very good at adapting all sorts of things to fit - here is an open source picture of a Hawk Surface-To-Air Missile (SAM) that was adapted to be fired from an Iranian F14.

http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/3fb75ed1315e6417.jpg

Also, if carrying some "lash-up" like that above, a speed of 350kts may be quite reasonable if a full envelope trial has not been done. Furthermore, pulse-doppler RADARs are good at measuring speed in lock, but not so great in search - the aircraft could be doing 300kts but the RADAR shows 350-400kts whilst tracking it in some form of wide area tracking mode. Finally, engaging at min range would not help as anti-ship missiles have a long range - even smallish ones like Excocet (remember the loss of SHEFFIELD? It never saw the Super Etendard).

Get the picture?

LJ

[chuks]

Just have a look at his previous posts, and the way they r wrote, and I think you can assume that this guy is not a troll and a journo. British journalism keeps to a pretty low standard, yes, but still....

I remember seeing a BBC (?) documentary about that shoot-down, live film shot during the incident. It was all 'high fives' and back-slaps aboard the ship until they got word about what sort of wreckage they were recovering. Oops....

It wasn't the proudest hour in our military history, no, but 'murder'? 'No,' to that as well. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Aegis system, at the time, presented data from the Iranian F-14 as if it were coming from the airliner, or at least it could be misread that way: in essence, the Airbus was 'tagged' as an F-14, when nobody thought to check any further before firing the fatal shot.

It's tough trying to understand the gap between civilian life and what goes on in the military. Perhaps Jakey should try a visit to someplace hot to see if that expands his understanding a bit. 'Hey, Jakey! Go check out that person to see what is under the burqa, would you? There's a good lad!'

Absent his intervention somebody might end up being shot as a potential suicide bomber, just because someone else isn't willing to take chances! We need more people like Jakey in our world!

[Spudh]

LJ,

The Hawk was an attempted replacement for the phoenix and as such an A-A missile not a A-G or anti ship like an Excocet. The radar modes for the AWG-9 would at least have been operating in its natural environment. It would be a big ask of the Iranians to integrate a stand-off A-G weapon into the AWG-9. They had other platforms for this role.

Also the USS Vincennes should have known exactly what the radar return of an F-14 looked like as they would have engaged it many times in the past on excercises.

Which brings us back to the threat analysis. It took many leaps in logic to turn the radar return of an A-320 on a standard rising commercial flight profile into that of an F-14 (a dedicated A-A weapon) flying a ship attack profile (wrong speed/ climbing) with a stand-off weapon (which didn't exist on that platform) to be engaged BVR.

As far as I can see the only evidence they had was an IFF return. The Iranians may have a question to answer here as to how an A-320 could squak a military code.

We know that in the fog of war this happens but this one was avoidable.

[Milo Minderbinder]

Spudh

I'll repost my previous in case you missed it.

"Where it WAS different was that at the time there was a shooting match going on with a bunch of Iranian speedboats. The Iranian authorities must have known this, yet they allowed a civilian aircraft to overfly a live firing zone. Life is cheap in Iran. it wouldn't surprise me at all if they deliberately risked the loss of the aircraft in an attempt to gain international sympathy.
As I said before on another thread, I'm convinced from what I witnessed of their chemical supply route that they were gassing their own people to gain sympathy, it wouldn't surprise me if a aircraft full of people were equally regarded as disposable, just to gain a political point. "

I may be wrong, I'd like to think I am, but somehow I think I'm close to the truth.

By the way - are you another journalist? It just seems strange timing for your first two posts to be on this thread.

[Avionker]

It might help if Spudh actually knew what type of aircraft was shot down...

[glojo]

Jakey did what jakey did but it certainly exposed certain issues..

I thought Leon's post had the best answer but hands up all those that researched this subject and hand's up all those that believe the commanding officer of that ship should have been court martialed for his actions immediately PRIOR to this incident? I am in the corner that says 'YES!' He might not have been out of control but he was certainly not behaving in a manner that was a credit to his service.

My thoughts are that Jakey may well have been after a certain response and by crikey he got it.......

Hook, line and sinker.

In life I have a theory that sometimes people keep getting promoted until they reach the limits of their capability... If ever there was a case to justify this theory then research the actions of this captain!! He was promoted one level too far and a lot of people paid for that error!

A much smaller, much less capable US frigate which was on station with that vessel and a ship which had far less electronic wizardry had already recognised that aircraft for what it was, they had already established it was a civilian airliner that was on a published and authorised route, at the scheduled time and also one which the US Navy were fully aware of!!

All this information and more was taken into account after the event and whilst I accept all the medals awarded to that crew were awarded for their 'professionalism' during that cruise or commission, but surely can we not accept it was in bad taste to give those medals?

Of course it was bad form to drag this up but are we perhaps also guilty of fetching up events that are best left buried and if so why such abuse to this troll?

Having a cavalier attitude and not being punished will usually end in tears, is it not best to remove the cavalier BEFORE they kill someone? It might not be nice, it might not be pleasant but how many senior officers are aware of the cavalier attitudes of officers that go on to either kill themselves or sadly innocent members of the public?

Is it in bad taste to offer examples?

Think display flying of a B52

Think about the severing of ski lift cables

Think about a modern nuclear powered submarine surfacing directly underneath a research vessel

Puma crash Catterick

I listened to a tape of an Apache aircraft crew struggling to identify two armoured vehicles and just before this aircraft launched its deadly weapons the operator can quite clearly be heard saying, "God I hope they are not friendlies!" This person was NEVER convinced the target was hostile.. Never ever convinced and yet they still fired their weapons!

And yes the armoured vehicles were 'friendlies' and there were sadly many casualties!

Is this the standards of training\command that we want, or can we try harder? Should we monitor the performance of those we place in a position of trust and..... take affirmative action if or when the very rare character sneaks through the much respected promotion procedures?

We tend to highlight American incidents and is it because of their psyche or.... Is it down to the numbers involved? If a mistake in selection is made once every thousand, then may I suggest it is probable that the US will possibly have more flawed characters than any nation with a smaller military service?

Of course, a thousand times of course there will always be that awful fog of war, and yes there will always be what is known as 'blue on blue' but let's not kid a kidder.. This event we are discussing did not do the US Navy any favours, and embarrassment or not that officer should have been held accountable for his actions and not just put out to graze.

I do not agree with how jakey went about this, but likewise I do not agree with trying to defend the indefensible.

I was not there but the sad reality is that the Vincennes should also not have been there!!

Was the career of the commanding officer of the frigate also effected?

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

glojo,

How dare you!

You are adding debate to pages and pages of vitriol - form both sides. Stop it, immediately! If you want reasoned debate, best you go elsewhere.

Duncs:ok:

PS. Your post was better than I could have stated!

[Spudh]

By the way - are you another journalist? It just seems strange timing for your first two posts to be on this thread.

Whats with the paranoia here? I'm a member for over 15 months, I only post where I feel I can contribute. You're such a welcoming bunch I didn't dip my toe in before. In 10 pages of slagging each other, no one mentioned the point I was making which I believe is a salient one. I have particular interest in the F-14, I thought I could add to the discussion.

I agree that the Iranians did contribute to the tragedy, the fact that the A300 squaked the same code as an F-14 on a flight path through hostilities would appear to me more than coincidental.

It might help if Spudh actually knew what type of aircraft was shot down...

And the prize for pedantry goes to Avionker :ok::ok: Come on, like its relevant that I typed 2 instead of 0. Thank you for the correction.

[Avionker]

I won something...:E

[Milo Minderbinder]

"Whats with the paranoia here? I'm a member for over 15 months, I only post where I feel I can contribute."
No paranoia. Just surprised at the coincidence that someone should suddenly choose this thread to make a first post after such a time
As to the Hawk, the Iranians are adept at adapting technology to uses other than it was originally intended. I suggest you do a quick read up of their known aircraft mod capabilities, and their missile capabilities

And by the way, you didn't answer my question.
Are you a journalist?

[airpolice]

If I had the time, I'd get stuck in again.......

[Spudh]

And by the way, you didn't answer my question.
Are you a journalist?

No, just a mil-av junkie with the F-14 as my pet subject for the last 30 odd years. Engineer by profession.

Just surprised at the coincidence that someone should suddenly choose this thread to make a first post after such a time

I'm not trolling, threads relative to the F-14 rarely occur these day so I didn't feel I had anything to add before. Everyone has to have a first post, I wouldn't have bothered but I thought it was relevant to the few coherent arguments being put forward.

I suggest you do a quick read up of their known aircraft mod capabilities, and their missile capabilities

I'm pretty well versed on Iranian capabilities, Like I said I'm an F-14 nut so as the only operator of the F-14 outside of US I've read just about every published literature on Iranian employment of the Tomcat. In 1988 the Iranian F-14's were absorbed in air defence and too valuable a radar asset to be employed against ships.

A well briefed captain of a US cruiser taking his ship into potential hostilities should have known which Iranian aircraft presented a real threat to his ship. If it was an F-4 or F-5 he might have had something to worry about but not an F-14.

[glojo]

Spudh
I would suggest a little research before getting the digits to type words that might not factually be correct:

Just one of many errors by the Vincennes on that day was the reporting of the IFF signal.

While the radar operator was examining the oncoming contact (Flight 655) with his trackball cursor, the IFF displayed its reading from the last “tracking gate” location. This “gate” is essentially a box that the
ship’s radar monitors for various signals (such as IFF); if it isn’t explicitly moved, it stays in place. Thus, while the civilian Airbus plane was correctly emitting an IFF Mode III signal, the radar picked up the IFF Mode II signals from F-14’s still at the Bandar Abbas Airport.The 'gate' was still over the area of Bandar Abbas Airport, the equipment was still searching the airport and picked up the IFF from a military aircraft that had NOT taken off. Flight 655 was airborne and on its correct flight path.

Should personnel get medals for this sort of 'professionalism?' is a question the US military must have asked and decided it was of a standard that they found worthy of recognition

All I ask is that we do not put ANY blame on the crew of that civilian airliner, they were on a regular milk run that ALL US warships were aware of, the USS Sides had positively identified it as a civilian commercial flight, the USS Forrestal an aircraft carrier some hundreds of miles away 'suspected' it to be a commercial flight AND had also informed two patrolling F-14 aircraft that had been scrambled to assist the Vincennes. The only ship that got things wrong was the one fitted with the most modern, most sophisticated equipment in the World!! It got it wrong and we are all aware of the consequences. by all means shoot the messenger but shoot them with facts and not tissues of wannabe imagination.

[Spudh]

Spudh
I would suggest a little research before getting the digits to type words that might not factually be correct:

Just one of many errors by the Vincennes on that day was the reporting of the IFF signal.

Glojo,

I was refering to the video in the OP's first thread. This was portrayed as a factual presentation. I jumped the gun assuming that the Airbus gave a code II squak. Consider my digits corrected.

Thank you for the information on how the mistake was made in the Vincennes.

I'm not trying to apportion any blame to the airliner itself, my original post was based on it being identified as an F-14 through its IFF (I was mistaken in by interpretation that the Iranian authorities had done this purposely), my argument was that even then it did not warrant a missile shot.

However, I still don't think Iranian authorities should have sent an airliner through a hot spot. Its normal to make course corrections for weather, why not divert around a warzone. Small consideration, but if its course was not a perceived threat to the Vincennes then nothing would have happened.

[Blacksheep]

The Iranian authorities must have known this, yet they allowed a civilian aircraft to overfly a live firing zone. Which authorities would that be? The aircraft was a civilian airliner, flying under civil ATC on an established civil airway, on a normal scheduled flight, in peacetime. The whole airspace around the area is busy with civil traffic. One would imagine that great care would be taken by the military to avoid civil aircraft - including the huge number of American citizens that are normally aboard airliners flying over the Gulf at any time of the day or night.

In fact, at that time civil airliners were often aggressively addressed by US naval forces on 121.5 but not all civil airliners have the triple VHF installation needed to monitor guard while working the ATC frequencies during aproach in such a busy ATC environmment. The third VHF is not required for "full airways fit" under Part K. Even with three VHFs, many aircraft are using the third for its intended purpose of downloading ACARS data to the destination station. The civil ATC frequencies are openly published and available on all airways charts. Why did the military choose not to use them, but try to use 121.5 instead? Anybody here know?

[ilesmark]

George Bush quotes (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/i-will-never-apologize-for-the-united-states-of/361886.html)

I often wonder whether Lockerbie would still have happened if the US hadn't been this arrogant.

[lj101]

The official report


http://www.dod.gov/pubs/foi/International_security_affairs/other/172.pdf

[randyrippley]

jakey said
"Morning boys..

I floated this on 4 or 5 forums yesterday- most agreed, save for this one. I wanted to prove that there is a totally different perspective and slightly warped perspective about this in military circles.

I was right."

Google only brings up two hits for threads with the same wording
A music forum Iran Air 655 Incident- Utter disgrace. (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2929810-Iran-Air-655-Incident-Utter-disgrace).
A rugby forum Planet Rugby Forum • View topic - Iran Air 655 Incident- Utter disgrace. (http://forum.planet-rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17138)

Neither are normally recognised as sources of reliable military information. Neither hobby is renowned for producing members with intelligence in the upper quartiles....
And I'm not convinced by the comment "most agreed". I really don't think you can draw that conclusion from what are in the main uninformed random comments.

Anyway, he said four or five forums, only two show on Google. so either the threads on the others got pulled, or they didn't happen, or Google regards them as so insignificant they don't index them
Hardly stunning journalistic research

[BEagle]

Minding our own business on an established civilian airway in Saudi Arabia, during the trail of an RAF Tornado back to the UK, I was rather surprised to be'aggressively challenged' by some Spam in a boat somewhere on the Red Sea on 243.0:

"Unidentified aircraft at (our position), this is Red Crown on Guard. Identify yourself!"
"Say please!"
"Err, unidentified postion at (our position), please identify yourself"
"Ascot **** in company with Ascot *****, Halaifa 1014, FL220 estimating Wejh at 1037. As per Flight Plan!"
"Uhh, ahh, roger, you're cleared to proceed"
"Absolutely right. Goodbye"

Quite what the heck some Spam thought he was doing querying legitimately flight planned traffic in the airspace of a sovereign nation, I cannot imagine. Now wonder they're pretty unpopular in many parts of the world.

As for the Vincennes, the report makes appalling reading. A gung ho 'shoot 'em up' captain with overly aggressive attitudes and a crew who made ridiculous mistakes. A full and frank apology should have been made immediately the president discovered what his idiots had done.

[Lima Juliet]

Spud

I was trying to spell out that the Iranians are very clever at adapting all sorts of stuff. The AWG-9 is capable of seeing ships and locking onto them - in fact RIOs would use the blue-water capability to find their flat-tops all the time. I also fired a Skyflash at a target floating in Cardigan Bay ably supported by AI-24 FOXHUNTER; so if the Iranian Tomcat/Hawk combination is able to do the same then that 54kg warhead in the missile would do considerable damage.

Hopefully, I've made myself a little clearer? :ok:

Jakey

I wonder if this is you?

Saboteur: Jake Hanrahan | Sabotage Times (http://www.sabotagetimes.com/author/jake-hanrahan/)

Jake Hanrahan - United Kingdom | LinkedIn (http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jakehanrahan)

Jake Hanrahan (OiJake) on Twitter (http://twitter.com/oijake/)

It would seem to fit your profile and personality type. The only other freelance journo I could find was this chap...

Jake May - United Kingdom | LinkedIn (http://uk.linkedin.com/in/jakemay)

Again, possible profile fit, especially given the Music Forum.

LJ :ok:

[ilesmark]

BEagle - your story reminds of this one US Navy vs Canada This is the transcript of the ACTUAL radio conversation of a U (http://www.exchangedlife.com/humor/jokes/navy_vs_canada.shtml)

[500N]

randy
"Anyway, he said four or five forums, only two show on Google. so either the threads on the others got pulled, or they didn't happen, or Google regards them as so insignificant they don't index them"

Or the forums don't allow bots (which is understandable) so they never show up on Google or any other search engine.

[airpolice]

My V70 has developed a kind of haze over the headlamps. They are the plastic covered, wrap around jobs rather than glass.

Volvo want an arm and a leg for new units, complete with bulb housing and back end, but the only issue is with the front. Oddly, there seems to be a clear patch just where the headlamp wash jets hit the surface, but no amount of scrubbing it with hot soapy water and a stiff brush seems to help.

Anyone out there seen this on their car?

[BEagle]

ilesmark, except that my story is true - I was flying the jet at the time.

Re. the problems with scrubbing out your vulv.....Volvo, airpolice, have you been driving it fast in sandy or dusty conditions? You could try some plastic polish, perhaps. Or toothpaste if you can't source plastic polish - it works quite well on many plastics.

[The B Word]

Thanks to LJ101 the official DoD report has the line that I've been waiting to see...


(?) For several months preceding the Air Bus shootdown, the US had received reports of Iranian efforts to improve their ability to attack US men-of-war. These included attempts to outfit both aircraft and small boats for ???????????? suicide assaults, to reconfigure F-4s, F14s, and other types of aircraft to carry a variety of air-to-surface missiles, and to develop small boat “swarm” tactics which could break through a ship’s defensive gunfire…In fact, we had been warned of the possibility of some type of assault on the 4th of July weekend.

(U) Of especial interest was the recent shift of Iranian F-14s from Bushehr to Bandar Abbas. In the few days preceding this incident several F-14 flights, operating from Bandar Abbas, took place in the Southern Gulf. On 2 July, USS HALSEY had to warn away a potentially threatening Iranian F-14.


I've added my "?"s for the redacted Secret parts in the quote. That would say to me that the crew did have significant suspiscion of the F14's A-G capability from their intel sources. Sadly, it looks like the Mode II switch to the Airbus track was the real killer and as some have said before, this has real similarities to the Patriot vs GR4 in 2003.

Given this information, I can now understand why the Skipper did what he did. Yes, he got it wrong in hindsight, but as we all know that this is a wonderful thing!!!

The B Word

[BEagle]

When warned that this was a 'possible COMAIR' (commercial aircraft), the CO reponded by raising his hand....

It is obvious that NOTHING would have changed his mindset, even at the late stage he was warned.....

Fogarty's report refers to Iranian air tracks as 'enemy'. When exactly did the US declare war on Iran?

[Marcantilan]

I do not agree with how jakey went about this, but likewise I do not agree with trying to defend the indefensible.

Totally agree. Nice and clever post glojo. Regards,

[Fitter2]

Fogarty's report refers to Iranian air tracks as 'enemy'. When exactly did
the US declare war on Iran?


When their naval forces and helicopters are shooting at you, what do you call them?

[BEagle]

Terrorists, insurgents?

But since when has International Law bothered the Spams.

[Lonewolf_50]

BEagle, you will note that the ships who hailed you and got your tampon all bunched up are not Air Traffic Control, and most likely do not have your flight plan on file. (Aside: most AAW ships I ever worked on had plots of common routes as overlays. This varied with year and where we were, not sure what current practice is. Been a few years since I was at sea).

They do, however, have airspace monitoring responsibility based upon their military mission, and they therefore challenge whomever fits into a certain volume of airspace in certain profiles.

If you don't like that, too damned bad.
Go fly somewhere else in the world. The world is a dangerous place sometimes, and in some places.
They've got the guns, you don't.
Your whinging attitude isn't something I find most pilots carrying in their kit bag.

Beyond that, it is not necessary to declare war upon one another in order to shoot at one another. US and Iran had been exchanging lead since Operations Ernest Will, and Preying Mantis, in the year previous to the Vincennes. Indeed, you might note that the US and North Viet Nam managed to shoot at each other for about a decade without a declaration of war.

Get a clue. There's a real world out there, and it has some pretty rough edges. Your demonstration of wilful ignorance is risible.

For the following, AAW - Anti Air Warfare.

glojo: your adoration of USS Sides ignores the sad reality that in the 1980's (long before CORT programs) the Oliver Hazard Perry Class frigates were referred to by many as the Helen Keller Class. As Anti Air Warfare platforms, their sensors and Data Link inputs were routinely crap, utter crap. I served on both those and Aegis Cruisers. The differences were in orders of magnitude.

That doesn't make Sidess CO's situational awareness utterly wrong, nor right, but it informs you perhaps on why the CO of the premier AAW platform in the fleet would take Sides' input with a grain of salt, at best. Even a less arrogant guy than Rogers would be hard pressed to take Helen Keller's input over his own systems.

I guess you wouldn't know any of that unless you knew something about Naval Operations. I happen to.

But CO of Sides DID have the link picture, which more or less was being vetted and put out by Vincennes. It it to his credit that he looked at a similar situation and spoke up, most likely knowing that Alpha Whiskey would not necessarily find his input worthy.

This second class citizen status (which from a technical perspective, was utterly warranted at the time) seemed to me at the time part of the axe he had to grind, as other Frigate Captains (actually ranked Commander) at the time also expressed. Can't say I blame him, since his assessment was closer to the mark.

Captain Rogers (on his second command, and an actual Captain in rank) also had the "cockpit gradient" or "rank gradient" going for him, in terms of not only having the better ship, but being THE AAW guy for the battle force, and being "the senior one" present. His personality probably took care of the rest.

It would have taken something extraordinary for him to consider the input of Sides as an override on his situation assessment. Sadly, hell, tragically, the CO of Sides was unable to penetrate the headspace and timing of one cruiser captain.

The following years' flame wars -- if we can use an internet aphorism for an in-print fire storm -- among American professional naval officers featured a certain partisan alignment with the Sides' CO (whom numerous officers with the AAW specialty aligned with) and the Vincennes' CO (whom another group, many also with AAW specialty, sided with).

Don't pretend Sides was an equivalent AAW platform. It wasn't.

The CO, however, did have more or less the same "big picture" to look at, and came to different conclusions than CO Vincennes did, which in hindsight was shown to be a better read of the situation.

Being right still needs to be effectively communicated.

See Cassandra, eh?

[The B Word]

...you will note that the ships who hailed you and got your tampon all bunched up are not Air Traffic Control, and most likely do not have your flight plan on file...If you don't like that, too damned bad...
Go fly somewhere else in the world. The world is a dangerous place sometimes, and in some places, they've got the guns, you don't.
Your whinging attitude isn't something I find most pilots carrying in their kit bag.

Now that did make me laugh out LOUD...:D:ok:

[TT2]

What would have been the outcome if the boat had been British, Russian, French, Australian?

All the fogging the issue that it could have been a F-14 adopting the flight plan and profile of a schedule on an airway is merely excuse.
Did the skipper ever front up and say, "I f****d up" and take the can as his position and rank dictated? Nope - he got a medal. Should have got 12 years in pokey.

If the excuses being made here were in the least viable there'd be airliners being blasted out of the sky on a daily basis.

It alas is a far too frequent happening with the septics that they shoot first and work out a story as a secondary action.

[Union Jack]

"Unidentified aircraft at (our position), this is Red Crown on Guard. Identify yourself!"
"Say please!"
"Err, unidentified postion at (our position), please identify yourself"
"Ascot **** in company with Ascot *****, Halaifa 1014, FL220 estimating Wejh at 1037. As per Flight Plan!"
"Uhh, ahh, roger, you're cleared to proceed"
"Absolutely right. Goodbye"

BEagle - Well I thought it was funny but, to be fair to Lonewolf, he does say, " Been a few years since I was at sea." .:ok:

[BEagle]

Go fly somewhere else in the world.

Perhaps you lot with your gung-ho cowboy diplomacy might actually like to go somewhere else in the world? Such as the OO-ESS-AYE?

And stay there!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

But Beagle, who would they have to shoot at then?! :E

[Lima Juliet]

Of course, us Brits are never trigger happy are we? Unless you want to recall some instances in Northern Island - Bloody Sunday and LCpl Clegg are 2 of the higher profile events. There have also been Brit blue on blues in Afghanistan more recently as well Afghanistan: list of investigations and prosecutions of British troops | News | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/mar/29/afghanistan-british-army-crimes)

Our glass house is not very impervious to stones!

LJ

[Q-RTF-X]

I was working in Dubai during the period immediately prior to this very unfortunate event. Our operations room had a VHF scanner that, among other frequencies, monitored 121.5. We often heard USN warships challenging civilian aircraft and usually receiving a response; though not always immediately. I several times commented on the fact the USN radio operators sounded under pressure, frequently bordering on emotional; it was a feeling one grasped just listening, in a word; tense. I also commented on a couple of occasions the whole scenario was developing into an accident waiting to happen. Pressure, stress, emotion and perhaps even a touch of fear, even in small quantities, are conditions that frequently become contagious. Based on my impressions at the time I would suggest that within most ships engaged in this task, there was already a highly stressful environment, an environment on a hair trigger. There was a backdrop of apprehension already in place. The subsequent events have already been flogged to death and need no input from me.

However, in closing, I venture the opinion that the suggestion this was an act of murder is simply asinine.

[SASless]

We surely owe Beags an apology.....as it must be a heavy burden putting up with others when one is perfect in every way!

I don't suppose the UK forces have ever made a mistake or that some ship's Captain lost the plot for some reason and caused the death of innocent folks?

If you watched the video taken aboard the Vicennes the day of the shoot down....the look of horror on the faces of the crew when they realized the error that had been made.....would indicate to you how much it hurt them to know they had just shot down an airliner.

This constant complaint about Cowboys and such does get old. The military forces in that region are there because of the national security issues of both your country and mine....and are serving in very difficult circumstances and doing a very darn good job overall. The threat to their safety is real and they have to be able to protect themselves and do so in accordance to the ROE's that are handed down to them by their Commanders.

In my time hearing from Red Crown was a blessing....twas them that wuz gonna send the SAR boys after your screaming ass when you were shot down.

.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Wow - 1x Troll and 12 pages later...

(He's still a nob though!!! :})

[sitigeltfel]

(He's still a knob though!)

Fixed that for you ;)

[Fitter2]

A persistent knob, though. I looked at the websites he alleges supported his world view. It's true most of the posts on them agreed with him, because most were by him.

And the times he posts do rather agree with the analysis that his mummy and daddy swich his PC off at bedtime.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

SASless,

No-one has suggested that the Brits don't make mistakes - LJ's post just 4 hours before you indicates some of them. However, with regards to 'cowboys'; unfortunately, IMHO, some of the posters here were wearing their 10 gallon hats whilst posting! And the intimation - from some - was that Vincennes did nothing wrong - it was the fault of the Iranian airliner in an Internationally recognised airway for flying close to an American warship .

Surely, this was a dreadful mistake that should have been preventable. And, perhaps, the CO should have been made to answer for his decisons. Was it murder? No. Was it manslaughter culpable or not? I don't know.

As regards BEagle's story, I've been told, on Guard, to desist from operating on a NATO promulgated task in the UK FIR by a US Warship. We did. It was Friday night.

Duncs:ok:

[AllTrimDoubt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTrimDoubthttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/490775-iran-air-655-incident-aci-last-night-post7303698.html#post7303698)

(He's still a knob though!)
Fixed that for you http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Nah, used "nob" to avoid censorship!!!

Besides which a "knob" might be deemed useful in life.....

[Spudh]

I also fired a Skyflash at a target floating in Cardigan Bay ably supported by AI-24 FOXHUNTER; so if the Iranian Tomcat/Hawk combination is able to do the same then that 54kg warhead in the missile would do considerable damage.

Fair enough LJ, I didn't know A-A radar could lock up stationary targets, but then again the Foxhunter was at least a generation more modern than the AWG-9.

Everything I ever read about AWG-9 made me believe that while it could detect such targets as you've described using search mode that it used doppler mode in the look down/shoot down scenario and so couldn't lock up a target that had no speed relative to the ground return in targeting mode.

I thought this was one of the weaknesses of the AWG-9 which wasn't resolved until the F-14D came along with the APG-71. I'm open to correction here though.

Like you said 54kg of a warhead is no joke.

[Torque Tonight]

It pretty much explains the lamentable state of media and journalism in the UK when some muppet watches a TV show, trolls a bit on a few web forums and from that considers himself an investigative journalist. What a chimp.:D

[Lima Juliet]

Spud

An effective A-A RADAR needs doppler and pulse. If you want to lock a target going in the same direction at the same speed, it is in fact stationary relative to you. AWG-9 and AI24 achieves this with low and high PRF modes - more modern sets also have medium PRF that gives you a bit of both. Low PRF is good for measuring range and high PRF is needed to measure doppler.

As an EW man, I would reseanably confident that Hawk could be adapted for a ship shot - although I'm not 100%

All the best

LJ

Ps - sorry about spelling as I'm typing this on an iphone on the beach!

[Lonewolf_50]

BEagle, whinging continuation noted, with disappointment, though I'll admit my tone was less than cordial. Didn't have to be.

You don't get to write the script.

Deal with it.

What ever happened to the stiff upper lip?

Let's put this in a way a pilot might understand.

Weather is part of your environment. If its down to min vis and min ceiling, and the cross wind's right on the edge, and ATC are up to their mitts in aircraft, and you're flying with an aircraft that has a couple of the avionics going a bit wrong, that is part of your environment.

Do you piss and moan, or do you get on with it and fly the approach as well and professionally as you can in the environment?

Well, In Real Life, certain parts of the world have armed ships mucking about for a wide variety of political reasons. They are part of the environment. Like the weather.

So, deal with it professionally, just as you would a problem in the air.

Leave the whinging to those who don't fly.

[Willard Whyte]

I'm open to correction here though.

By no means a correction, but it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that there has been some 'exchange of information' between Iran and other regimes not entirely friendly towards 'The West'.

Russia, China, spring to mind.

Israel has been widely reported as having provided clandestine support to Iran throughout the Iran-Iraq war, perhaps as late as the mid 80s.

Whether any of this 'support', imagined or otherwise, could make AWG-9 partially Air-Ground capable is moot, perhaps the Iranians have replaced it with a different unit. Fairly sure any int. on this wouldn't be revealed in any case.

[TT2]

'Leave the whinging to those who don't fly. '

I fly and I'll whinge if I want to - especially if I'm toddling along an airway waiting for a missile up the arse due to operator incompetence.

[Union Jack]

El Grifo - Please check your PMs - about you know whom! :ok:

Jack

[kit344]

Today is the 30th anniversary of this Incident.

​​​​​​What has been learned since ?

Did the families of the victims receive justice ?

[Pontius Navigator]

​​​​​​What has been learned since ?

It will be one of an on going chapter of experience.


Did the families of the victims receive justice ?

This is always contentious. In the old days it was an eye for an eye. In modern times it is ' money. Money in many cases not necessarily to the deserving. To lose a son or daughter is tragic and no bucket of money can compensate. Loss of the family breadwinner on the other hand has a direct monetary effect and deserves a cash award.

So yes, some justice for some people but no way of erasing the pain.