View Full Version : Ryanair - Employment Agencies Regulations Opt out?
16th Jul 2012, 16:19
Hi, I can't say law is my strongest subject and as I've never been a contractor before I haven't come across these Regulations. But as I'm soon starting with RYR on the Storm contract I've been asked to decide whether I want to opt out of these Regs and to be honest I am none the wiser....Any RYR pilots if you could please chip in with some advice I'd be grateful. Thanks
16th Jul 2012, 18:09
Hi Mr 737
If you have a choice stay away from RYR at the moment. Read the comments on pprune, 99% is true and try to find sth. else.
Low pay, no respect twrds pilots at all, you won't be based home, all new agency contracts are floating life-style (your promised base is guide-line only), as CP being blamed for every little thing eg. track deviation in MAD 20000€ have to pay yourself(!), zero(!) decision or common sense allowed, severe issues and blaming by Base Captains or Chief-Pilot for taking extra fuel, etc... I could write a book about it...
you will not fly with anyone who is happy at the moment and you will see Base TREs, LTCs etc... going and taking F/O position in EK and elsewhere.
As CP expect net salary of about 5300€ net (no matter what they say, you will fly ish 750hrs), and you pay everything incl. ID, Food, Uniform etc... Absolutely everything! As F/O the same, however expect to earn about 3500€ net
Leave it chap, believe me!
16th Jul 2012, 18:11
Heard it is better to not opt out, contact IALPA mate they will be able to give you solid advice about this and other stuff if you are a member.
16th Jul 2012, 18:31
Try reading this:
Agency workers: new rights from 1 October 2011 : Directgov - Employment (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/employment/understandingyourworkstatus/agencyworkersandemploymentagencies/dg_198913)
And think whether Ryanair want you to have any right...
17th Jul 2012, 12:47
@<hidden> Unfortunately I can confirm this. The moral is currently at an alltime low especially for FO's due to overcrewing, which means in otherwords a paycut..... Most guys are already really worried about the comming winter, if this overcrewing trend continues it will be hard for FO's to pay for their basic needs over the winter months: Rent, food, Transport ...
One thing is not entirely true, the word is that a few TRE's got recently accepted as DEC in EK...
Why on earth should someone OPT out. It means you are saying OK mate dont worry if you cant pay me....... weird
17th Jul 2012, 15:06
As an FO I can confirm the very low morale. The basic rule about RYR is, if they give advice favouring on opting out, then don't. Its only to screw you.
One thing I would highly recommend is joining REPAweb.org. A private forum for RYR pilots and I would highly recommend you join IALPA (most contractors do), look at REPAweb, I think its 15 quid a month for FOs and around 30 for CPTs (could be wrong on the skippers rate). The only way to improve and protect your current contract is by an association if you don't then I guarantee you in 4 years time if you are still RYR you will be earning less than your current contract now. Ask any FO or CPT who has done several years for proof. For example RYR 2000 agreement had an FO earning upto 74k in 2005. In our current year, that same FO now makes 33% of that.
Remember bring a water bottle! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
17th Jul 2012, 18:24
No one is able to do a thing unless FR pilots en-masse join one of the associations and say no to some of the stuff happening.
17th Jul 2012, 20:39
I admire your enthusiasm at pointing the blame, you appear on every thread which involves CTC/RYR. I don't disagree with you that these practises must be stopped. Being 42 I will assume you have been a product of this industry longer than I have.
I hated the options I was presented with when I qualified, are you suggesting this is my fault? are you suggesting we all try and unite, as a group of students, to protect the industry from the ground up while the guys already inside do SFA? this is a change which older, and apparently wiser members of our profession didn't resist when it was knocking at the door. Instead, they sit on their high horse looking down, throwing insults and pointing the finger. You are more to blame for this than any new comer, old bean!
18th Jul 2012, 20:57
Superpilot, I understand that you probably have spent a lot of money training and Ryanair might be your only option at the moment. Salaries are low and getting lower, you will not be flying the hours you might expect and you can be based at over 50 locations in Europe. However the most important thing for you to consider is expansion of the fleet ends in about 10 weeks time. That it! Over! From September to get command someone has to leave. FR themselves expect 150 captains to leave a year, it may not be that high. FR has about 1500 captains so if between 100 - 150 leave a year, that means you are looking at 10- 15 years to command - min.
You have seen previous posts tellling you about too many FO' s in the company. I believe that they are starting from September to do the same with Captains. From their point of view it costs them the same, same amount per hour. Costs the same to have one guy do 900 hours as to have 2 guys do 450 hours, who looses out? Excess Captains insures against any future flucations in man power. Flooding the market with guys desperate to get a job elsewhere drives down wages across the industry.
Can you live for the next 10-15 years on a FR FO salary? Can you repay your loans? And don't plan on getting a few thousand hours with FR and then moving on, while that is happening now there is no guarantee for the future. The industry is moving towards hiring zero time jet hour pilots so in a few years you might be stuck in FR.
For now terms and conditions within the industry and particularly in FR are on a downward spiral. To all of you thinking of joining FR - please think very very carefully, there might be no going back.
Alexander de Meerkat
19th Jul 2012, 23:04
Sadly, the only people to blame for this are Ryanair pilots themselves. They were actively courted by BALPA last year and voted not to become recognised. Surprise, surprise - you have been stuffed by your managers and your big boss MOL does not care if you live or die. The only answer is to get union recognition, but before you know it all the old stories about what happened at DanAir last century will be out. Then someone's uncle's friend knew someone who had a mate whose case BALPA did not take to the industrial tribunal. It is all so predictable - as is the future for Ryanair pilots without a union.
20th Jul 2012, 07:54
That reference to a BALPA vote last year is utter nonsense. Nothing of the sort happened.
There IS groundwork being laid to unify FR pilots. Any genuine self-respecting FR pilot will have joined REPA and will know all about it.
But it is not easy setting up a union when so many in the company are unwilling to risk losing their jobs. This is a company that has no morals and no respect for the law.
Many older or eastern European pilots at FR are just glad to have a job and don't care for unions because it's not in their culture. Many of them are just delighted that FR gave them a chance to settle in the UK or western Europe and they have no intention of jeopardising this by sticking their heads above the parapet.
New cadets at FR are a significant proportion of the workforce and they too are grateful to FR for giving them stripes and a job flying the 738. They are earning money when others are unemployed. Why would they revolt!?
It's only the sensible experienced FOs and western Captains at FR who are pushing for change and the company splits them around Europe to avoid bases getting organised. And most of these guys are trying to get out because they see the writing othe wall (and in their contracts).
You think it's so easy to unify, but it is not. We are trying...
20th Jul 2012, 09:19
Yup, RYR threatened to change the roster, tranfers, close bases and do reverse rotations during the previous balpa campaign. Everyone looked at balpa and asked, we know they will do this, what will you do to stop it? Nothing was stopping RYR transferring voters out and putting cadets in, they've done this before to dilute votes. This isn't a company binded by any rules...
They never answered our questions about the threats and the campaign lost its drive. Nothing against balpa, they tried to help us and got experience of the beast we are actually trying to deal with. Now they have that experience and our campaign this time is network wide spearheaded by an association who has vast amounts of experience with RYR.
Cadets are a very big issue. Everyone who has left RYR In the past 2 years, would most likely be yes votes, to be replaced by cadets/dec who are most likely no voters, and we've lost several hundred pilots.
20th Jul 2012, 10:01
Well posted Depone and McBruce.
Ive always maintained that Ryanair is the easiest target for those outside the ring to piss their way in to. It all may seem very black and white to outside observers, however they're only scratching the surface. I'm not detracting from most people's concerns, some points are extremely valid. However if some wish to compare a BALPA campaign in EasyJet to one in this lot then please gain a little more insight. Talk to a less deluded BALPA rep who is prepared to be honest about what actually happened.
Welcome to the world of 53 bases, 30 plus nationalities, DECs just happy to have a job and 250 hr cadets who are affraid to make any more noise than a mouse fart. I'm actually surprised that IALPA and the ECA have got so far this time around.
4th Sep 2012, 10:42
The industry is moving towards hiring zero time jet hour pilots so in a few years you might be stuck in FR.
Can I ask you; where do you see the indications that the industry is moving towards hiring zero time jet hour pilots? Just because BA launched a massive campaign last year where even not all of those 800 were cadets? For the rest I have no idea of examples, so clear my mind? :-)
4th Sep 2012, 11:46
Well heres the condradiction. either people are leaving en mass and you will get a command in Three weeks. or the truth that most are happy here and your command will takes yonks. either way avoid Repa .
18th Dec 2012, 18:38
I just received the Storm McGinley contract and face the same choice.
The previous replies did not shine much light on this matter.
I hope anyone can give advice whether it is wise to opt out of the regulations, or not?
18th Dec 2012, 19:12
I think the advice at the beginning of the thread was "Crystal Claire" ask RYR what they prefer, & do the opposite.
Why would you contemplate opting out of something that "may" offer a modicum of protection.
One thing for sure, you are definitely Ryanair material :ok: :ugh:
18th Dec 2012, 19:27
Get some professional advice from an accountant.
Do not opt out Why give up on a law that is supposed to protect you . The fact that an agency has the audacity to ask this in the first place is remarkable and for you to even think about it well .....
We're all suffering because of the Ryan-ization of the pilot profession. Your mob hardly offers new pilots a better deal...or old ones for that matter....
Collectively, RyanAir and Easyjet have ~500 airframes between them and actively discriminate against experienced pilots, especially in the RHS.
Just imagine what the job prospects/T&C's would be for UK pilots if that wasn't the case?
Our industry needs solidarity across airline boundaries and borders these days....
Our industry needs solidarity across airline boundaries and borders these days....
Well this was suggested as early as 1970, and not much seems to have happened since then....
9th Jan 2013, 12:33
Reporter - Mayday Mayday Part 2 - English version (http://reporter.kro.nl/seizoenen/2013/afleveringen/03-01-2013/extras/mayday_mayday_part_2_-_english_version)
9th Jan 2013, 19:51
Why would you want to opt out? I often wonder how people manage to get an ATPL when I read some of these questions. Agency workers regulations are there to protect employees. AND to stop the likes of Ryanair from exploiting people.
If only half the pilots there were aware of it.
There'd be no need for a union. Any problems from your employer and you'd have the government fighting your corner.
Pilots need to educate themselves! It's not that difficult really. But for those of you who cannot be bothered to do any research then briefly, anyone employed by a company to do the same job for more than 12 weeks (YES TWELVE WEEKS) is entitled to most benifits that a full time emplyee is. ie sick pay/ holiday pay / they cant just sack people for no reason either. This was set up to put a stop to the likes of Ryanair from exploiting their workers by making them contractors and having them believe they have no rights. THEY DO! Why do you think Ryanair wants you to opt out of it. Arseholes. They can't anyway. You are by default protected by this bit of government legislation, no matter what stupid piece of paper those pikey dictators get you to sign.
The problem with the whole situation is RYR contracts bogus contractors, in their eyes. They might treat them like employees, but they call them contractors. They now insist they are LTD's. Thus they have built a wall between RYR and the pilot. The only way this can be broken down; think Berlin 1989, is for a massive group to make a legal claim of employment and break this wide open. If the odd individual stands up and makes a claim for their 'rights' they will find their services are no longer required. Sad but true.
9th Jan 2013, 20:59
And that's exactly what they want you to believe.
The actual truth is that individually you are alot more powerful than you think.
Any problems with ryanair and you contact this government agency.
Thay will come along to a meeting with you and discuss politely the options.
If Ryanair still refuse to play by the law then they'll be taken to court, not by you, but by the GOVERNMENT!
There is a government agency out there right now who specialise in this. It's their job. That's what they do! Capice.
Ryanair must be laughing. Scratching their heads wondering how the hell they've got away with it for so long!
10th Jan 2013, 12:24
RAT5, well said!! :D:D:D
Finally someone else has pointed out that disguised employment is illegal and that by default all of the Ryanair contractors could claim permanent employee status and put an end to this nonsense.
I would get some legal advice or have a chat with HMRC and just explain that you're being forced into a state of disguised employment.
Yes... it really is that simple and it has been done before.