V-TAIL BONANZA CRITIQUE

[Fantome]

Latest AUSTRALIAN FLYING mag has a most entertaining (and possibly alarming) story of one man's long-lingering concerns about the FTDK's structural integrity and other design quirks. Jim Davis's association with the type goes back to 1952.

His controversial views are probably more about increasing circulation than airing airworthiness concerns of any relevance today. Still, going by the figures he had dug up it has a shocking history of fatalities.

The only reference on the magazine's website (without subscribing) -

*The Type Hog: Walter Beech’s Famous V-tail – We love it, Jim hates it. Wherever it went, the legendary Beech Type 35 Bonanza was revered or reviled.

[Frank Arouet]

Some early one's had problems with min fuel/ weight and balance. Some people reckoned they needed wing and tail straps. I've never had any problems with them except mastering the Turbo V35B which was only one of dexterity that could be taught to a Chimpanze, (I mastered it). My favourite was the S model which had a phenomenal turn of speed. The aircraft itself was a derivative of the Mentor which was built to land on aircraft carriers or dropped from 50ft by idiot pilots.

You could say it's my favourite aeroplane.:)

[T28D]

Just like a nice broad, it wiggles as it moves, class !!!!!

[poteroo]

Clinton and Frank - you are both spot on.

None of us get it right every time, and unless you've flown a type over quite a few hours - it's risky to make a negative public comment.

The S35 also has a particular place in my favourites. Did a lot of time on TOB out of YPJT back in the early 70's - 173 KTAS if I remember rightly.

happy days,

[Chimbu chuckles]

What aircraft doesn't shed bits when its WAY past VNE and the 'pilot' is pulling G trying to miss the planet?

Any Bonanza is awesome - the Vtails are sexy as well as awesome.

I have only read a few Davies articles - he didn't impress.

Edit: I can actually answer my own question - C185:ok:

[Jabawocky]

What a dumb idea for an article.

Old Wives Tales spread from this qualified mis information.

Dumb Dumb Dumb

[Volumex]

Many moons ago as a teenager I went from around 50 hours in Victa 100 and C172's into a 1966 V tail. You would think with the alleged inherent design flaws coupled with youthful exuberance I would have become a smoking hole in the ground. :rolleyes:

Interested to see Scott N's thread on BT recently regarding the Cessna 180 flaps being copies of the Bonanza. The article also mentioned that the forward strut attachment point on the Cessna was done based on knowledge of the issue with the Bonanza.

[Captain Nomad]

When low-performance pilots are put in the cockpits of high-performance aircraft, it’s very easy for them to get into big trouble, very quickly. That’s exactly what happened in the late 40s and early 50s, when a very fast, relatively inexpensive aircraft became very popular among the burgeoning middle class in the USA.


Once upon a time I was conducting a VFR navigation exercise with a person who fit this discription (the purpose of said nav was to get him to a location for business) in this very same V-tail machine. We encountered the very same situation (which develped quicker than he was used to) and it took positive action from me to overcome the "get-there-itis" and turn us around. He ended up going by road. I wonder what would have happened if I wasn't with him that day...

There are worse machines out there to pick on than the good old Bonanza - a true pilot's aeroplane...

[P51D]

Davis's article disappointed me and I put it in the crap basket pretty quickly. Whether he was just trying to be provocative by picking on a legendary aircraft has backfired IMHO. I haven't flown the V35 but have an F33A and after many hours on Pipers (and Jim's little favourite the 140) Cessnas and Mooney's I prefer the Bonanza over all of these. I'll probably drop my subscription to AF as a result. Anyway, why does Davis carry on so much about South Africa, I'd rather read of Aussie accident investigations. You should be scared of them Jim if you can't close the bloody door and make it out to be a potentially catastrophic event.

[Dora-9]

I concur with all who have written favorably about the Bonanza. Funnily enough the S35 was always my favourite too, and I was gob-smacked to come face to face with CFK at Caboolture recently, an aeroplane I've haven't seen for over 40 years.

Jim Davis writes well but spreads tosh - yet another journalist?

Frank Arouet:

The aircraft itself was a derivative of the Mentor...Err no, the first 35 flew in 1945 while the Mentor (Beech 45) flew in 1948.

[spinex]

I think AF may well yet rue their attachment to Davis, who seems to have attained sacred cow status over there. He is enthusiastic to the point of bigotry about the PA-28 series and makes no bones about disliking several classics including the the V tail Bonnie and C-210. His focus is South African because that's where he grew up and lived most of his life, aside from a short stint in Bunbury, whereafter he ran off home and hasn't had much good to say about Aus ever since. Pity really that he's allowed to air his various prejudices in the magazine instead of sticking to writing about flying instruction, something he does a good job of.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I concur with all who have written favorably about the Bonanza. Funnily enough the S35 was always my favourite too, and I was gob-smacked to come face to face with CFK at Caboolture recently, an aeroplane I've haven't seen for over 40 years.Ahhh CFK!

Now how's this for an interesting interconnection of threads on D&G?

I did my B33/35 endorsement in CFK in the 70's (back in the days when even SE's were separate endorsements), with one Barry Hempel !!!!

I think I had maybe 120 hrs at the time and the Bonanza endorsement cost me an hour of flying Barry around the training area and the AF circuit while he read the paper!

Having survived 800+ hrs in the Forktailed Dr Killer, I like to think that my pilot skills are right up there with Chuck Yeager ! :E:E:E

Dr :8

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I'm amazed it took 12 post before forkie got in!:}

[Frank Arouet]

Err no, the first 35 flew in 1945 while the Mentor (Beech 45) flew in 1948.

Apologies, I got that ar$e about didn't I. I should have said they both shared the ruggedness of the undercarriage and airframe design concepts.

There was a straight tail aerobatic Bonanza/ Debonair also.

I bet the Mentor was fun to fly.

[Macroderma]

FTDK

it is unsettling to see more evidence that even in the early 70's (i.e. before the hanger door hit him on the head) Hempel was being a cowboy and that:

"the Bonanza endorsement cost (you) an hour of flying Barry around the training area and the AF circuit while he read the paper :ugh: !"

doesn't sound very professional of him does it, but sadly very typical of the man ? :rolleyes:

see the hempel inquest thread elsewhere on PPRune for more about Hempel's misdeameanours, sins, crimes :sad: and worse.

Can't wait for the report of the Coronor !

I agree with you about the Bonanaza, what a great plane.

Macca

[flywatcher]

Forkie, I'm surprised that you had an hour flying around in the training area. My recollections of that era (and not with BH, but in most places), was along the lines of "there it is, you buzz off and fly it around for a while and I will sort out the paper." And that wasn't only for single control aircraft either.

[By George]

Amazing and nice to see Bonanza CFK is still alive and well. I flew that with Lanhams Air Charter out of Mt Isa in '74. A look at my log, last flight was 23rd March '74 to Manners Creek station on the mail run. Loved flying it, beautiful feel to the controls, solid yet positive and responsive. Quite unlike the 200 series Cessnas we also had, which flew like jelly puddings in comparison. I cannot for the life of me see anything dangerous about the Bonanza. Had to watch the C of G but no other problems I can think of.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Macroderma clearly you're too young to remember when a 'checkout' often consisted of "Can you fly a XYZ?" "yep".

Believe it or not there was a time when the 'group endorsement' system actually meant something and, for the most part, the quality of training actually did prepare most pilots adequately to just 'get in and go'. Certainly CPLs.

Having done my initial CSU/Retract endorsements in a 182rg (maybe 1hr total) I checked myself out in a brand new C206 and a few months later in a near new C210 - I was just handed the keys by the owners (and yes they had clearly asked people - probably my ex instructors - whether I was trust worthy). With 40 hrs tail wheel logged on Tiger Moth, Decathlon (mostly) and a couple of hrs Pitts S2 I was handed the keys to a C185 and told to come back when I was comfortable in it - that was a little more exciting than climbing into a 210 the first time:ooh: Of the 100s of hours in a Bonanza I don't have 1 minute dual and my Baron type rating took 20 minutes - albeit when I already had a bunch of ME experience.

Ahhh the good old days:ok:

[By George]

On the 4th of Jan '74 Lanhams lost a Beech 33A Debonair at Barkly Downs station killing Ian Smith (VH-DEW). It was the old loss of control in non-VMC, no fault of the aeroplane. The other Debonair was 'DYT'.

I wonder if CFH is still around?

[Stationair8]

In next month's issue of Australian Lying, they will show you how to knit a pitot tube cover for your Bonanza, talk to a private pilot that has mastered the Seneca1 and review an incident with a senior grade 3 instructor that experienced a total gps failure in his C150.

[Dora-9]

By George:

Wasn't CFH written off at Alice Springs?

[Critical Reynolds No]

Haven't read the mag in years. Is it still the Editors personal flying experience diary?

[Old but not bold]

There was nothing wrong with this great design, as said prior the S35 was the pinacle but all other models were streets ahead of other lighties.
The only small problem, which may have accounted for loss of someTail Surfaces was that when repainted the tailplane was Paint Weight Critical. Paint had to be measured and weighed acuratly for equal distibution on both surfaces or Tail Flutter could be expected. I have a feeling there may have been an AD regarding this problem but not sure?

[flywatcher]

Chuck, you probably remember the days when you flew your multi off to where someone signed off the endorsement. Ie you got it here, you must be OK. Proper basic training and a read of the handbook was just about enough to fly anything. Sadly, those days have gone forever.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I seem to remember having a couple of hours in the LHS of a PA60-602P before doing the endorsement - which didn't take long.:E

[gassed budgie]

my Baron type rating took 20 minutes

45 minutes for me in the Chieftan, but that was a long time ago now and it just wouldn't happen today. I've come across a couple of places that want anywhere from 5 to 10 hours in a 210 before they'll cut you loose. WTF!

[Jamair]

Limited Bonanza time, 30-odd hours. Hired a V-tail a few years ago, the owner checked my licence, medical and logbook and tossed me the keys. Did some basic air sequences in the first bit of the first flight; wasn't particularly different to an A36, except a power-on stall. It bit, REALLY hard. No buffet, just flicked onto its back. Easy recovery, but a bit surprising considering its otherwise docile behaviour. I still think the Bonanza / Baron are pretty much the definitive GA single and light twin.

[Dora-9]

In order to read the offending article I completely wasted $7.75 to buy a copy of Australian Aviation. My earlier impressions that the magazine isn't worth buying anyway were confirmed, although I note the new editor has already received criticism of Jim Davis' articles.

But there (see my earlier posting) was CFK on the cover!

The article was, from beginning to end, unadulterated tosh. Regarding the well-known Bonanza/Debonair/Baron trick of the door popping open as you get airborne, I've never heard of any change in the flying characteristics - the wing-drop has to be a figment of the author's imagination. I've asked around to confirm this; all you get is a lot of noise (and all the loose paperwork being sucked out!).

Jamair, many years ago I used to do Bonanza endorsements. Looking at my logbook, these were in a M35, S35 & V35 - never to I recall a savage wing-drop in the stall. Possibly the one you flew was mis-rigged?

[By George]

I'm wondering if Jim Davis has his aeroplanes mixed up, the Aztec with the door open would oscillate in pitch with quite a bit of buffet. The 'E' model was the worst. At least it shut up the right-hand seat pax, they would go very quiet and sit up like a peg on a clothes line.

Bonanza CFH is indeed no longer with us but the ATSB report has been 'removed'. Why would they do that?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The article was, from beginning to end, unadulterated tosh. Regarding the well-known Bonanza/Debonair/Baron trick of the door popping open as you get airborne, I've never heard of any change in the flying characteristics - the wing-drop has to be a figment of the author's imagination. I've asked around to confirm this; all you get is a lot of noise (and all the loose paperwork being sucked out!).

Yup! Jaba has video of a door "pop" in an A36. He might post the link if he sees this.

I have "popped" the door on the V35, A36 and 55 Baron - it just gets very noisey!

Dr :8

[Jamair]

Dora - dunno, maybe. It was otherwise quite a nice ride. Coulda been my crap flying too. VH-ILJ if memory serves.

Have had doors open on PA28, A36, B58 and Aztec. Complete non event in all regards. Didn't the PM of UnZud (the non-male one who euthanised the NZAF) have a door-opening event in an Aztec?

[Pinky the pilot]

Had a door open in a Seneca 1 once. No drama but a few loose WACs were sucked out! Most annoying.

[Captain Dart]

...another reason why CASA should allow iPads for on-board documentation.

[Arnold E]

Look, lets face it, any Beech product is a delight to fly, and an absolute pig to work on.:cool:

[Fantome]

25 (permalink)
flywatcher

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: australia
Posts: 127

Chuck, you probably remember the days when you flew your multi off to where someone signed off the endorsement. Ie you got it here, you must be OK. Proper basic training and a read of the handbook was just about enough to fly anything. Sadly, those days have gone forever.


Well now you raise the subject . .. . . . . .it might cast one under up alongside some nefarious connection if one were to be too specific .. . . . BUT I do recall various 'bar' endorsements on twins you would never fire up if you had not done a bit of homework. Many's the really old stager who can tell you how they were shown the 'taps' and with a push on the shoulder the lid was closed. Sometimes even a Spitfire (Read "The Sky Beyond' by Sir Gordon
Taylor)

Cannot recall the process of being checked out on the banana... it was a beautiful all yellow one VH-KKK owned and operated by one Geoffrey Keighly off a property near Stock (Stockinbingal nr Temora) Might have been an S model fully IFR Delivered her down to Mascot one ****ty morning . . . hairing along over Glenfield trying to get the speed back and stay on the LLZ broke at 300 ft sighing with relief.

[Avgas172]

I'll probably drop my subscription to AF as a result.

What a sook ... one article you dont like about a chunk of flying metal and you spit the dummy. Your life must be a greaser if this is the worst thing thats happened in it. I enjoyed the article, as I do on most of JD's writing and certainly won't be giving AF up anytime soon as there is much more to it than just that.
:E A172

[Frank Arouet]

The DCA "S" model was for sale in recent living memory, don't know where it is now. The following link gives our history with them.
Beech V35A Bonanza VH-CAG (http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Beech%2035%20Bonanza%20VH-CAG.htm)

It interests me because Bill Lord gave me my first introduction to the Chipmunk and aerobatics many years ago, and I've met the glider pilot. Still going I believe.

EDIT: I hate to do it Clinton, but I just can't help it. Hope you and your Bonanza are well.

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/1999/sep/wheelsup.pdf

[Jabawocky]

Forkie

You mean this one?

A36 Door pops open.wmv - YouTube (http://youtu.be/RxpCQTYS1Uw)

Bit noisy and windy.....did not notice anything alarming.

[slackie]

Yeah... that looked like a true emergency situation... people screaming, aircraft plummetting, sirens sounding, panic'd crowds, etc etc etc. NOT!

[Frank Arouet]

but I guess it’s good to be famous for something.

Actually Clinton, you redeemed yourself in the article by alerting others to that pitfall. You'll never know of course how many people who read that were saved from the same situation.

Today, that would be a "knee capping" offence, so apt is that it be reposted.

[Frank Arouet]

No,but I do know of a bloke who landed wheels up to achieve a similar result in a Comanche and he did have serious action taken against him. I think a F27 landed in a paddock at Bathurst with gear retracted also, but I think that was a sink during a go around. Don't know what happened to him.

I had an undercarriage experience one day with a V35TC that had been flown through trees the previous night and despite a thorough inspection didn't see a faulty micro switch. I think the crash comics had a write up about that one. Same happened with a 33 model Deb with grass and sand after it had been to Orchid Beach. My own near fault was testing the undercarriage alarm on a PA-28R, but all worked out OK.

Another landed "wheel" up, but it appears with a Vari-Eze you don't really need the nose wheel.

I mention Knee Capping to prove my well founded paranoia if ever the bastards do go out of their way to really get me more than they already have.

EDIT to add;

The flap switch is shaped like a flap and the undercarriage switch is shaped like a wheel from memory. Or was that the Arrow thingy?

[jas24zzk]

Nah Frank, the arrow has that dirty great handbrake handle on the floor for the flaps.

Doubles as a corker if you are silly enough to enter the left seat without retracting the flaps after pre-flighting :E

[Stationair8]

Don't Bonanza pilots have a secret handshake or is that Mooney pilots?

[Jabawocky]

That's the Mooney pilots :}