View Full Version : PD still allowed?
15th Jul 2012, 18:26
I've looked at the GMA letter regarding freighter PX and nowhere is the issue of PD vs. PT addressed. I've heard that PD requests are being turned down though, although it really has nothing to do with freighter PX.
So I've been issued the standard "Y" class PT to a place I don't want to go, base instead of preferred port at the end of a trip. Can I still purchase my own tickets to home and request PD and be reimbursed up to the value of the company PT tickets? Does anybody have experience with this in July?
Thanks in advance.
15th Jul 2012, 18:54
Email the Oygen Thief and ask her
15th Jul 2012, 21:02
I was offered PD by the phone drone in CC for a July flight but I have yet to try to cash in the ticket, so only half an answer here.
15th Jul 2012, 22:15
Just changed to a PD last night. So far no problems.
Strong rumors about a change here, all to do with tax/legislation/base issues..
16th Jul 2012, 10:51
That sounds like a very lame excuse. Companies the world over reimburse their staff for alternate travel plans when Plan A goes to pot. Sounds like a quote from an administrator who has no idea why not ...... just cannot!!
Totally agree 744dr!! There is a way to manage the whole basing issue,
but the lack of willpower and/or expertise on the 3rd floor is in the way unfortunately.
Netjets has a working strategy since years for this!
17th Jul 2012, 18:04
There has been no change to the PD policy. CC is happy to change your PT ticket to PD and save money on the ticket / get rid of credit hours.
This was a rumour that GTC58 started in the Freighter PXing Thread (http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/487548-freighter-pxing-either-way-youre-shafted.html#post7234550)
It is false. Likewise, I am pretty sure the Dhaka Hanoi part of his post (crewing w/ 1 CN, 2 FO and 1 SO) is also false.
17th Jul 2012, 21:40
If that is so, it would be reasonable for CX to charge each individual for any tax incurred. Much better than a NO which would cost CX money as well.:confused:
18th Jul 2012, 03:33
I don't think there is any tax involved going back to your official base it would apply only if you changed your ticket to a destination other than your base.
18th Jul 2012, 07:20
I'm not shooting the messenger, however would you agree that it is unfair/wrong to apply FBT to the differential between the price of an ID90 and a full fare ticket, thereby treating that differential as taxable income?
The reason it is wrong/ unfair is that, as we all know, an ID90 is not the same as a full fare. They are completely different products, in terms of bookability, priority and customer service. Perhaps, the only differential that could be taxable is the difference between an ID90 and a standby fare.
18th Jul 2012, 07:59
I think we're talking at cross purposes. What I understand is that if CX gives you a PT ticket to your base it is not taxable. However, if you change it to another destination and claim back the lesser cost of your ticket that is taxable because it is a benefit and is not going to your employment base.
18th Jul 2012, 11:21
Yes, sorry I am a bit "off message".
I suppose I was commenting on LongtimeinCX's first sentence of post 9 of this thread, which appears to be opening the door to taxing leisure iD travel as well. I find the whole FBT issue can get very fuzzy, very quickly, and starts off as a tax fairness issue, but very rapidly descends into a pathetic envy issue. It becomes more about votes and soundbites and less about fair tax collection. (oops.. Computer shows syntax error, the phrase "fair" and " tax collection" in the same sentence).
18th Jul 2012, 14:18
Thanks for the responses guys. I definitely won't be saving the company money or credit hours. A ticket from ANC to the East Coast is 400 or 500 USD more than the company PT ticket to LAX. I've seen overtime maybe three times in eight years on the base, which is why they build these PTs or PXs to begin with. So I won't be losing any OT.
Nope, not PXing on the freighter will cost me an average of 500 dollars out of pocket per occurrence and the better part of a day off at home lost. Hopefully some sort of agreement will be reached soon.
Waterskier- I'm pretty sure Dhaka Hanoi IS being run with four crew for the whole flight, I just don't know what the composition is.
18th Jul 2012, 15:26
What? $500 per occurrence? How?
A ZED fare from LAX to NYC is just about the cheapest deal going anywhere: Long, 1-sector, no customs fees/taxes, virtually no user fees/tax collections at US airports (at least compared to the rest of the world).
$500 is a full fare 1-way ticket, which is also the cheapest 6-hour flight in the world, last minute and 1-way. I've done that for $150 by booking a confirmed ticket well in advance, also the cheapest 6-hour flight ever, but still not much more than a ZED standby ticket.
The extra days off and extra credit you should gain from not agreeing to work for nothing should more than make up for any time and money used to take any of the hourly flights between LAX and JFK, no?
18th Jul 2012, 19:22
I'm looking at PD out of ANC instead of the company PD to LAX, so ANC to the Southeast. I don't know if ZED fares can be reimbursed, my understanding has always been that we need confirmed tickets in lieu of the company travel to be reimbursed.
That being said, I'm looking at full fare because I actually want to get home. I spent 2007-2011 commuting to LA, until I took the MIA preferred port. I always bought confirmed fares outbound, and I gave up trying to use ZED fares to get home in 2008. That was when the US carriers really started to shrink domestic capacity. I was buying full fare tickets in the gate area, no matter the day of the week, because I couldn't get on. I can think of very few flights that weren't chock-a-block full during the period I was buying tickets and doing that commute. The routine announcement "Ladies and gentlemen, this flight is completely full, so please stow only one bag in the overhead...blah, blah, blah." Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday...didn't matter. So I'd be mad to try to ride home from either ANC or LAX on a pass, and this is a Sunday coming up.
I am looking at advance fares, which is why I posted this right after the roster came out. Then I have to consider non-refundable or not. I've paid my fare share of 150 dollar change fees due to roster changes and delays. It used to be the company tickets were well in excess of my PD travel (so I could buy refundable), but the ANC-LAX isn't worth much and US fares have been steadily increasing. But there isn't anything close to 150 dollars at any rate. There may well be to JFK, but not to Florida.
In regard to extra credit and extra days off, I compared my last typical roster prior to July to August. I had leave May, June, and July, so I had to look at April.
April- Two trips, all in and out of MIA. One seven days in length, one six days in length. One PX sector from ANC to MIA on one of the trips. One "A" day. 80.42 hours credit.
August- Two trips, both start in MIA, one finishes in MIA, the other in my LAX base. One five days in length, one six days in length. One block of four "A" days. One PT sector from ANC to LAX. Credit hours 80.59.
Nothing has changed. The PX sector to MIA has been replaced by a PT to LA to keep me below guarantee, which is pretty much how its always been. It hasn't resulted in me operating that last sector or getting paid any more. There is one less day off in August with "A" days considered. From the other East coast based guys I flew with in July this is pretty much what they have done to most people. Where people had that one PX sector home per month its been replaced by a Y class PT with a hub stop. I predicted this would be the pattern in another thread. What I didn't anticipate was that they would pull the Alaska Airlines first class agreement to make sure we got Y class everywhere. Touche.
IF this eventually results in getting full credit for freighter PX that will be a benefit, but in the short term its a significant hardship for many.
18th Jul 2012, 19:45
Just sign the darn PX letter then and waive your contractual rights. I've heard a couple of you east coasters based on the west coast whinge about this now. I don't think one or two more letter signers will make a bit of difference. Do you? I have no doubt the AOA is doing everything it can to resolve the freighter px issue, but it takes two to sit down across the table and the company is unwilling. Vent your frustrations at them, not us...
18th Jul 2012, 20:59
The point isn't so much to vent as to correct the misconceptions that not signing the letter will automatically result in an immediate improvement in conditions. For a lot of people it did, and for some of us it things are considerably worse. As you can see, people assume credit hours are up, scheduling is more efficient, operating instead of PXing, etc. Nope, the company simply replaced PX with PT. And they made every effort to make sure the PT was as bad as it could be. In many cases that's a much longer and more uncomfortable way to get home. Being based on the wrong coast is a complication, but its no improvement for a guy that lives in NY and is based at JFK. Now he has a Y class PT through a hub for at least eight hours instead of staying on a non-stop freighter. I think the only base its better for is LA if you live there, and don't have an LA freighter operating that day.
At some point the financial cost will force me to consider signing.
Glass Half Empty
18th Jul 2012, 22:14
Why are you not being given PT to your preferred port.
18th Jul 2012, 22:17
I'm glad you let the company know that you are at some point ready to sign the letter. ;)
18th Jul 2012, 23:11
Out of interest do you all keep an eye on your cumulative duty limits because these include PT'ing.
18th Jul 2012, 23:39
Cumguzzler- I haven't let the company know anything, unless you mean by posting on here. In that case, point taken. On the other hand, how long am I expected to be out of pocket that kind of money per month to support a cause? Its all fine and good until you have to pay up, but its a lot to ask if its going to be protracted.
Glass Half Empty- If you can cite me where PT to preferred port is required, I'll be all over it. But I can't find it, and base is much cheaper. I've also heard that PT is going to base just to prove a point when the cost is close. That's unverified info though, over dinner in ANC.
19th Jul 2012, 01:44
When you change the ANC-LAX PT to an ANC-MIA PD, and willing to pay any extra, is it always more cost to you or have you just had bad luck with busy days in summer so far? For Aug 1 I see 1-stop fares of 400-550, which can't be much more than the ID50 ANC-LAX, right?
If the above really doesn't work, I think your best bet is to take your allowances and rest in ANC, then the PT to LAX and then ZED home from there at all hours: I looked up Aug 1 and show 14 flights per day to MIA/FLL. Apparently Virgin will take you in the J/S at no cost and sit you in the J, if there is space, or Y.
As for starting a pattern in LAX, I understand the problem with roster changes, but it's usually pretty stable at the start, except for A days. But even then, you just go ZED and try to make it and usually will. If you show up late, or don't show up at all, so what? Either book off sick from the stress diarrhea you just got, or get a missed duty once ever 5 years. (There are a few brave guys with 3-5 MD's per year and nothing happens when it's A-day related. Not your fault the flights were full, right?).
Even then, planning just 10 days ahead of time, Spirit will do FLL-LAX for 200$ to get you to work, AA MIA-LAX for 250$, confirmed (and no jeopardy if you miss a work trip when you have a confirmed ticket to get to work). Or you can risk getting bumped by ZED and easily cover your butt if you don't make it for whatever reason (that's what everyone else is doing...). As for getting home, going LAX-MIA/FLL with cheap ZED when not dying of fatigue (after a sleep in ANC) will work almost all the time - be sure the operating crew knows you're there trying to get home.
I've heard others getting PT'd to their PP, so maybe you just weren't lucky recently due to loads/ticket prices?
One thing for sure, joining the PX crowd for eternity, before a deal is in place, is not the way to go. You won't get a good deal if you cave into this pressure, and you will pay for it forever. It sucks that you're suffering financially right now, but I hope the above can reduce this as much as possible in the interim.
Anyone have any other ideas for this guy?
19th Jul 2012, 03:49
Well done Sir.
19th Jul 2012, 05:54
Home is a Florida city about 30 minutes by air from MIA. I've never had to change a PT to PD home because I always used to PX on the freighter to MIA and pass ride across to my home airport. This is the first month I've had to deal with it without being able to PX to MIA. The date in question is either a late Saturday night or early Sunday morning PT. Company has it set up for early on a Sunday morning (5AUG), but I get to ANC Saturday evening. Fares from Travelocity start at 632 USD for a non-refundable to my home. Company fare to LAX is 307. So 300+ out of pocket if I go non-refundable. From LAX to home is somewhat less but then I've used the company ticket so its still 300 bucks out of pocket. The higher figure I quoted earlier was for a refundable ticket and roster changes are just a fact of life. I either risk it or I don't.
Based on the scheduled roster there should be a hotel room and allowances in ANC. If the flight runs late into ANC and I drop below the six hours+ for a hotel room I will be too fatigued to continue without a rest.
Yes, Virgin will take jump seaters, as well as USAir some of the time. That's with a seat in back, since we aren't CASS certified and never will be. Virgin doesn't go to my home city and USAir will be full to the CLT and PHX hubs on weekend days from LAX, or PHX from ANC. Didn't know Virgin would sit us in J class.
I don't worry too much about starting in LAX. Its my base, and if they build a trip from there so be it. The commute is on me and I buy a ticket, as you say it usually doesn't change. I went back there to go to the passenger fleet and bypassed on the 777 to reduce my commute. It was my choice. But I almost always start out of MIA because there just aren't that many guys on the preferred port and the airplane goes there most days. Likewise, if I operate to LAX and finish there its my base. That doesn't happen often anymore either, although they will do that to keep me under guarantee. Commute is on me, no complaints. Where I have the problem is being PT'd to LAX from ANC at the end of a trip where I used to PX to MIA, because LAX is cheaper. Especially when I bring 074 into ANC and have to watch it leave for MIA without me. That's a sh** sandwich and the only thing that's cropped up as a result of this pissing contest. That's my only issue (besides Y class), because they can't operate me twice back to MIA in a month without me going into OT, so I'm gonna get one of these a month. There'll always be one PT or PX sector on the backside.
Way too much of a difference in fares between ANC-LAX and ANC-MIA so I'll never see PT MIA. But I will call and request it just to hear it first hand.
"A" days. Am I responsible for LAX or MIA? The answer is yes. LOL. Again, I don't sweat these too much. I've had two MDs related to LAX "A" day call outs in eight years. One I screwed up and didn't realize it was an "A" and on one I misconnected due to a delayed flight on a full fare paid ticket bought when I got called out. There are two times I check Crew Direct....during the required time on the day before an "A", and when notified of a roster change arriving in HKG. That's it. Roster changes have diminished the less I've logged in.
I have played this game a long time.....starting at the regionals many years ago. The best deal is always the shortest route home with the least connections, and for me that's unfortunately the freighter to MIA and American across to home. I do appreciate your concern and suggestions, and the primary motivating factor in me not signing that letter is that its irrevocable.
19th Jul 2012, 10:18
Well, what would happen if every single one of you would cancel your preferred ports, all on the same day so it kicks in at the same time in the next quarter or whatever the rule is. You're giving them the option of 2 ports when it's convenient to them, and quadrupling the chances of roster disruptions (each port can change before and during a pattern) but you're not really getting any good will back, so why help them out and set yourselves up for more disruption?
Nobody on a PP means a lot more PX/PT and a lot more hotels and allowances. That should get some attention, don't you think?
19th Jul 2012, 10:24
as an interested observer, who is not on the freighter fleet, I sympathize with your situation.
My take on it is that no freighter PX is a new concept, and it seems sensible that it might take a few months before they work it out properly. I know it's a rough ride for you and others in the same situation, but the philosophy behind encouraging everyone to not sign is that an improvement should naturally evolve - it just takes time.
Out of interest, since the start of no freighter PXing, have they at any stage asked you as a "one off" to PX on the freighter to your PP?
19th Jul 2012, 10:34
I find Travelocity to usually be the most expensive search engine. Go with Kayak.com and it will search everything at the same time: All the airlines' sites, Expedia, Travelocity, Orbitz, Priceline, Mobissimo, and more. Sometimes AA is not searched, though, and some LCC's.
It really doesn't help that you have to fly from the top left corner of the continent (ANC) to your base in the bottom left corner of the continent (LAX) to find your way to the bottom right corner of the continent (MIA) to fly another leg to where you live....Just about the worst case I've heard.
19th Jul 2012, 14:26
If the company would properly staff ANC and/or use more SOs to/from HKG, none of this would be necessary because 8driver would be operating to and from his base or preferred port rather than positioning. It's not rocket science really. They are basing relief pilots in LAX when they really need them in ANC. Who's genius idea was that? I'm guessing it had something to do with recruiting onto an inferior freighter contract and having base location seal the deal. So they created the problem, they can choke on it...
19th Jul 2012, 20:05
Iron Skillet- Getting everyone to withdraw a preferred port would be a tough proposition, I don't know if we'd have the unity to do it. It would make things interesting.
Broadband Circuit- I'm on leave the second half of this month so I had no PT sectors build on this July roster. Everything was operating in and out of MIA. The first place that could occur would be that August PT we've been discussing, so I'll see what they do. My reading of the GMA letter indicated that they could only do that for roster changes that occur after the roster is published. So the sector I have next month wouldn't qualify.
Hopefully as ticket costs mount they'll schedule less PT.