View Full Version : Red Arrows Borg
Top Bunk Tester
12th Jul 2012, 09:43
Just seen all ten frames transiting south, presumably to Farnborough. I was under the impression that we were only going to see '7 of 9' this season apart from the the 'Royal' displays. Are all 9 displaying at Farnborough?
Pure Pursuit
12th Jul 2012, 09:57
Manger plus spare?
Top Bunk Tester
12th Jul 2012, 10:02
PP
If all else fails RTFQ :ugh:
Think I've just answered my own question, all 9 are doing flypasts of which there was one at Gainsborough in transit to Farnborough this morning but only '7 of 9' will be flying the displays.
Pure Pursuit
12th Jul 2012, 18:48
I would have thought that 'manager plus spare' does indeed answer the question when discussing the make up of the 9 ship. Unless of course you've seen displays with Red 10 and the spare taking part. Didn't think so.
Apologies for trying to help...
Courtney Mil
12th Jul 2012, 19:00
There have been 9 in every flypast this year -Queen's Jubilee, for example (and over my house). There are only 7 cleared for aero displays, but they still have lots of jets. Let's face it, the traing machine can spare them now.
Courtney
Geeky question:
The BBC piece had pictures of a black Hawk leading the formation - in training. As I understood it (from Hawk ground school which although marvellous ;) was a few years ago now) the Reds have a different 'engine control box' which allows for faster spool up.
Have other aircraft (as Courtney says - must be spares around) recieved this mod or is the black one leading because it hasn't - but as dash one he doesn't need it? (Smooth flying, constant settings etc)
...must get out more....
I know it's not called a control box and I know it had a secondary caution linked to it..and i think it had two channels but I'm boring even myself now!
Genstabler
13th Jul 2012, 07:55
I believe that, while they didn't have enough serviceable red jets early in the 2012 training season, they borrowed a black one. It is best allocated to the boss for training for the throttle control reasons you give, and also because it doesn't have smoke.
FlapJackMuncher
13th Jul 2012, 10:15
I saw at least 1 training day this year with a Black Arrow leading.
teeteringhead
13th Jul 2012, 10:29
I saw at least 1 training day this year with a Black Arrow leading.
Wot? :eek: Not one of these surely?? :eek::eek:
http://www.wingweb.co.uk/wingweb/img/600-RAF_Black_Arrows_Hawker_Hunters.jpg
Top Bunk Tester
13th Jul 2012, 10:40
PP
Obviously basic math and attention to the question being asked was off the curriculum at Biggin/Cranwell the day you did selection.
So 10 frames minus "Manger plus spare" equals 8 :confused:
If it were to be a 9 ship display/flypast then 9 plus "Manger plus spare" equals 11 :confused:
As we all know this has been a tragic and unfortunate year for RAFAT, and it was well published that the team would only be flying 7 ship displays this year, so with the manager IN the spare as normal one would've expected to see 8 frames in transit, hence my question, but as CM rightly pointed out and as I later researched, all flypasts are being done as a 9 and the manager will be IN the spare making 10.
Having said all that I'd like to wish the Team a rewarding, albeit sad, season and hope to see them back to full strength next year.
Pure Pursuit
13th Jul 2012, 11:04
Nope.
Red 10, the manager, is flying as part of the nine ship along with Red 8 for flypasts.
So, when you see a nine ship, it's the 7 display pilots plus Reds 10 and 8 (manager plus spare...)
There is no Red 9 this year.
The team intends to return to normal strength next season.
Genstabler
13th Jul 2012, 11:47
The 10th ac in a transit is Red 11, the Winco.
Gene Genie
13th Jul 2012, 11:54
The black hawk will have a modded engine (limited number) but probably leading as no smoke pod mod.
Aircraft are borrowed during the winter trg/servicing season as the red aircraft undergo deep servicing.
At least that used to happen when I fixed em as a yoof.
GG
Top Bunk Tester
13th Jul 2012, 11:59
Thanks Genstabler, at last a sensible answer to the original question (CM notwithstanding )
It can be struggle, PP, can it not? I think he has got it now.:ugh:
Pure Pursuit
13th Jul 2012, 13:57
I love condescending folk on here, it makes the website such a pleasure.
foldingwings
13th Jul 2012, 14:25
There were 9 on the ground at Farnborough yesterday!
Six got airborne about 1300 and disappeared leaving 3 on the ground.
Six returned and broke into the circuit to land about 45 minutes later (before the show proper started)
Nine remained on the ground for the rest of the day because the forecast front duly arrived and put paid to their display (one supposes)!
Airbus 380 was extremely impressive - stayed (just about) inside the airfield perimeter and never got above 160 kts (that's according to the Airbus Chief Test Pilot who was flying it - an ex-RAF Buccaneer mate who came for a beer afterwards).
Foldie:ok:
Pure Pursuit
13th Jul 2012, 14:28
I would love to have seen that! Very impressive aircraft.
The Reds actually did a display at Cromer last year using the black hawk, who unsurprisingly was in the Red 1 position.
I can't think of any other time they've used a non Red Arrows hawk for a public display though.
Courtney Mil
13th Jul 2012, 16:52
It just takes time to get another one modded and painted.
Plus the time spent arguing about who needs them most, then re-negotiating the servicing contract at Valley.
scarecrow450
13th Jul 2012, 16:58
The RAFAT Hawks are prepared at Shawbury then flown to Cranwell or Leeming
for repaint.
Just This Once...
13th Jul 2012, 16:59
Just to spin it the other way, it did feel slightly odd flying a jet in Red Arrows scheme and opening up with the gun on Pembrey.
Being allocated it for air combat with when the other jets were painted grey was less well received!
Pure Pursuit
13th Jul 2012, 18:35
The black jets are often just temporary swaps whilst the RAFAT jets get an overhaul. The synchro jets get moved around the fleet etc in order to avoid a ridiculous AFI.
Air combat in a red jet... That's simply not fair! At least it wasn't trailing smoke.
Inshala
13th Jul 2012, 22:05
Display flying-Reds 1-7
Flypasts-Reds 1-9. The Team uses Red 10 as the 9th aircraft, but whenever he flies he is referred to as Red 9 (or sometimes 19). He flies on the left which is always an 'odd' number and helps avoid a 'coggie'.
If you see a 10-ship, the 10th will be flown by Red 11, 'Wing Commander RAFAT'.
Black Hawk used during the training season when aircraft were in very short supply; borrowed from 100 Sqn. The Team now have 13 aircraft although only 10 are smoke capable. The other 3 have modified engines and could fly in any position, but have a gun-pod modified into a baggage pod and NO smoke. Hoping this will be rectified for next years return to a 9-ship however...
Reverend 71
13th Jul 2012, 23:29
Red 10 spotted on ground at Shrivenham on Thursday, where there appeared to be a lot of people in No1s or equivalents. Having not done ACSC, my Key Stage 1 military estimate is that the Reds were doing a flypast for a graduation with 7 ac.
snafu
14th Jul 2012, 23:54
Reverend, that's exactly what they were doing...albeit with 6 Reds, because R6 had apparently injured his neck and was unfit to fly.
India Four Two
15th Jul 2012, 06:56
Just to spin it the other way, it did feel slightly odd flying a jet in Red Arrows scheme and opening up with the gun on Pembrey.
Now there's food for thought. I would pay money to see the Reds in line abreast, strafing a range. How about formation DACT against another team? ;)
I42 - we managed 'DACT. once 'internally' during a high-level transit/battle cross-over between main and Gypo. Interesting debrief.:)
India Four Two
15th Jul 2012, 13:04
Interesting debrief.
I'll bet it was. It must be tough to keep your eyes on the leader in that situation. Do you want to expand on your comment? ;)
Not really - it was sorted out in traditional fashion without fisticuffs (and not retained as a display item...:))
Melchett01
15th Jul 2012, 22:20
7 ac - 4-ship and a 3-ship in close trail flew over Melchett HQ in Cambridgeshire this afternoon. Might have to write and complain - not nearly low or loud enough!
A fine sight on the first half decent weather day for a long time.
Saw the 7 ship Reds display for the first time at Farnborough on Sunday. Obviously Gypo suffers a bit from being two aircraft short in the second half, but all in all it still flows well and looks good.
The two lost pilots were mentioned during commentary and the inclusion of a dedicated formation to them in the display is a nice touch that went down well with the public.
Overall a good display the was well received and deserved the applause it got. :D
Pure Pursuit
16th Jul 2012, 16:35
Slightly off thread but,
I remember scampton receiving correspondence from an Islamic convention that was being held on the Lincolnshire show ground over the road. Basically, they asked RAFAT to avoid flying those wretched military jets over the convention...
Sunday evening, Reds arrive back at Scampers for the usual break over the patch via the show ground with smoke on. Point well made I thought.