I parked at Aldi and was booked by a UKPC "Operative" while collecting a ticket from the machine. (In this car park the first hour is free provided a ticket is displayed.) Aldi do not operate the car park, nor do they engage UKPC - the car park is operated by their landlord. The Parking Charge Notice (PCN just like a real Penalty Charge Notice) was issued with no interval between first seen and ticket issued and the photo they took is nothing more than a photo of my car parked while I was away.

I declined to pay the £80 penalty charge as it is not a genuine estimate of the loss suffered as a result of my not displaying a ticket. UKPC did not acknowledge my letter and the next I heard was a letter from a Debt Collector demanding £140. I declined to pay this also.

Tonight, I received a phone call from UKPC, to discuss a solution, otherwise they will take me to court. I told them to do their worst and take me to court. Am I daft, or what?

Certainly not. More people need to do this.

Edited to add the 'Honest John' column in the Torygraph has advice on this. It should be on the web. :ok:

Oh, you could try these people.

AOS Enquiries (http://www.britishparking.co.uk/AOS-Enquiries)

Don't bother appealing. Waste of time. Have a look at FightBack Forums (http://forums.pepipoo.com)
- also, the law may have changed recently, but under NO circumstances should you admit to being the driver. The "registered keeper" is not the same thing.

As I understand it, the ticket isn't a legally sanctioned fine, but an invoice: a request to pay. The logic is that by parking in the way you did you created a legally binding contract requiring payment on your part
You can of course decline to pay their invoice, in which case they can bring a civil action for non-payment
What happens on the day in court depends on the judge, how the ticket was presented, and what they can prove - do they have video evidence of you as the driver?

I am assuming you have kept the ticket or other proof from the machine, Blacksheep, since it will have a date and time on it which may make things very interesting when it comes to that shower of dog manure try to take you to court.......

I believe it would be worth having a word with (or even writing to) the manager at ALDI, mentioning the over-zealousness of the parkies and how it will prevent you (and your acquaintances) from shopping at their store.

This seems to have had an effect at our local Tesco and the department store in the town centre, especially when these incidences were aired in the local newspaper.
The don't like negative publicity, especially when it is caused by their own policy.

Of course, if the carpark is not associated directly with ALDI this might backfire.

They are out of line and have no legal standing on so many levels, just continue to ignore them. As far as I know no parking company has won a court case. In fact HMRC has also been on their case.

Do not respond.

Ignore them.

They have no legal right.

Ozzy

If you do wish to respond, contact them and Aldi and instruct them cease harrasing you otherwise you will take both organisations to court under the terms of the freedom from Harassment act. Folk have done this and won

(Aldi as the parking company are acting as their agents)

what are the timings on the PCN and your parking ticket?

The infringements that are highlighted locally are when vehicles (such as taxis) make repeat visits on the same day.

The ANPR camera records the earliest arrival time and the latest departure time and where this exceeds the three-hour 'no charge' period a 'summons' is issued by the parking control company.

Of course, as there is no ticket system, motorists have difficulty proving that they were away from the parking area for a significant period during the claimed times.

It seems that the software that flags-up an extended visit doesn't search for intermediate departures and returns.

what are the timings on the PCN and your parking ticket?
Well quite. The original statement:
I parked at Aldi and was booked by a UKPC "Operative" while collecting a ticket from the machine.
is consistent with:

(1) Parked,
(2) wndered off to do shopping elsewhere (not even in Aldi),
(3) on returning to car park spotted operative heading towards car,
(4) went straight to machine to buy a ticket,
(5) "was booked by a UKPC "Operative" while collecting a ticket from the machine".

Not enough information. You'll need to do better than that in court.

Time of parking, with evidence, plausible tale of what you did between time of parking and time of ticket, time of your ticket, time of operator's ticket, ect ect.

There are plenty of people who have this bizarre idea that they've got some sort of right to park for however long they like for whatever reason they like on someone else's land without following the someone else's rules, and you will have to demonstrate on the balance of probabilities that you aren't one of them.

Maybe I'm missing something but what seems soooooo sad is the fact that a major UK supermarket expects you to pay to park while you spend money in their store...:rolleyes:

Soooo, Blacksheep says:
Aldi do not operate the car park, nor do they engage UKPC - the car park is operated by their landlord

Then you say:
what seems soooooo sad is the fact that a major UK supermarket expects you to pay to park while you spend money in their store...:rolleyes:

I guess then Maybe I'm missing somethingI'd say so, wouldn't you?

A watch of this should make the legal position clear!

How to deal with Penalty Charge Notices issued by private companies - YouTube

Apologies if I have missed something here, but unless it is dispensed by an entry-barrier device, how are you supposed to acquire a ticket for your 'free' hour unless you leave your vehicle to go to a machine?

Carry on ignoring them. Even if they do take you to court (highly unlikely) a judge will then decide how much you have to pay, not the extortioners..

If it's not too late, you can ask them to send an invoice for the contractual sum due, addressed by name to the driver who left the car in the park. You do not have to inform them who that was (unless you have already admitted it) and they cannot pursue the keeper (ie owner) as a Local Authority or the Police can, if they do not know who the driver is.

We did this with a company, PCS, who are notorious in the South-West for unreasonable demands, issuing tickets while you pay at a distant machine, and threatening behaviour, and it worked. They gave up.

Sprogget:

You continue to demonstrate a denseness beyond imagination.

It is irrelevant that Aldi doesn't own the parking lot. Aldi went into a contract that they knew they were paying less in rent for because the shortfall would be made up for by the parking fees collected by the landlord. Therefore Aldi knowingly expects their clientele to pay to park to spend money with them.

Or is that a little too complex for your mono cellular cerebrum?

Got one at an Aldi parking lot once, too. I ignored the several notices they sent me. They went away. They're not cops and they're not working on behalf of the council, so they can go pound sand.

Do not contact them. Do not enter into arguments with them. Do nothing! They won't go to court as it costs them more than they gain.

My wife was issued a ticket by motorway service station car parking muggers. We researched it on the web and ignored it. Never heard from them again.

BTW check up the "debt collection agency". In many cases, their office address is remarkably similar to the parent company! They are usually just a different department!

You continue to demonstrate a denseness beyond imagination.

It is irrelevant that Aldi doesn't own the parking lot. Aldi went into a contract that they knew they were paying less in rent for because the shortfall would be made up for by the parking fees collected by the landlord. Therefore Aldi knowingly expects their clientele to pay to park to spend money with them.

Or is that a little too complex for your mono cellular cerebrum?

Tampax?.........

What I don't understand is how hey get hold of your contact details as the DVLA database is supposed to be confidential and secure so how do these private companies manage to get access to it?

the DVLA database is supposed to be confidential and secure so how do these private companies manage to get access to it?

The government realised there was money to be made, so they charge for it.

Some press reports this morning are saying the Clacton police shooting was the result of a parking dispute.

You continue to demonstrate a denseness beyond imagination.:}:}:}:}

Magic!

The reason supermarkets charge is precisely so its customers can use its stores instead of the spaces being taken up by people who are off elsewhere, hence the free period for parking or claiming money back at checkout. That said the general advice is that these invoices from private parking companies are best ignored.

Whilst I generally avoid the, 'buy a ticket and have the cost refunded at the checkout WITH YOUR PURCHASES', stores, I have to say I'd be very annoyed to run a shop, only for it to be used by all and sundry wanting to avoid a £1 public charge. (I avoid them, btw, 'cos I never have change!)

If the OP was indeed parked only for as long as the trip to the machine and back takes, then that's clearly ridiculous. If Gertrude is closer to the mark- well, I'm with the 'authorities'.

CG

DVLA database is supposed to be confidential and secure so how do these private companies manage to get access to it? I queried this with DVLA, Department for Transport and the Information Commissioner. The answer from all of them is that "it has been agreed" (By whom? With whom? We don't know.) that because Car Park operating companies who are members of the British Parking Association are totally honest and ethical organisations whose only purpose is to improve peoples' lives and who are audited rigorously and frequently by the BPA, they can have access to the DVLA database, for a fee, of course.

When you point out the reality, that these companies are set up and run on the outer fringes of the law by a bunch of profiteering gangsters who pay to join the BPA after filling out a form and have never, ever been audited in any meaningful sense by the BPA or anyone else, the DVLA, Department for Transport and ICO express shock and horror that you can say such things about such nice people, and assure you that you are wrong.

"Another cup of tea, anyone?"

I should point out here, that I am a local politician 'on a mission' to be taken to the County Court, where I intend to test the idea that under the Law of Contract, a court will not enforce a penalty under an implied contract unless it is, as the law requires, a "genuine estimate of the actual loss resulting from the breach". I can afford it, so I don't care if I lose, but unless someone does actually take it all the way, there is no way to deal with these sharks.

So, I'll continue winding them up until they are either obliged to do exactly what they threaten or else shut up and go away. The follow up will be a campaign in the local press and on local radio, with the objective of closing down the operation. It was the sight of an elderly couple reduced to tears by a PCN on their windscreen that set me off and I'm the kind of nutter who enjoys this sort of thing.

Maybe I should don a pair of green tights and retire to Sherwood Forest? :}

Maybe I should don a pair of green tights and retire to Sherwood Forest?

You could, but be advised that you have to pay to park there.

"I should point out here, that I am a local politician 'on a mission' to be taken to the County Court"

then you're going to catch a cold - the judge will pretty soon realise this and probably impose a fine for wasting the courts time
you're effectively indulging in frivolous litigation - and judges get very pissed with that
I agree entirely with your sympathies and motives, but not with the method

This rather desirable private yacht - the Leander - photographed last Tuesday evening in Portsmouth Harbour is owned by..........

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk231/45596/20120703071MYLeanderStCeciliaImg_0174.jpg

National Car Parks - so now you know where the money goes!

Sorry to p1ss on your crusade Blacksheep but the debt collectors will have lost interest before it goes to court. You see the problem is if they lose a case - just one - then a legal "stake in the ground" is placed, and other judges and people can make reference to your victory.

When you're on a multi-million pound earner you're not going to cause a problem for the sake of £80.

Of course you could just do what a "friend" of mine did, and take a dump in the return envelope and post it off.....

Read it again, Milo.

The intention is to be 'taken' to court - not start an action of one's own.

wasting the courts time you're effectively indulging in frivolous litigation - and judges get very pissed with thatWell, yes, probably true, but it's not Blacksheep doing the litigating if it gets to court, it's the other party, is it not?

Is pursuing an £80 or so civil debt through the Court (plus expenses, I suppose) wasting the Court's time? Yes, but perhaps the Court can't say that.

However, I suspect that Cherokeedriver's right. It won't get that far.

But good luck anyway, Blacksheep, and if you need help let me know!

Blacksheep - regardless of whether they take you to court or not, you have a fantastic story for your local paper. If they do, you can trumpet your win and if they don't you can inform all that the parking company won't enforce (through the courts) any 'tickets' that they issue. Either way, you get to effectively neuter them. Go for it!

As for sending them a 'dump' letter, I'd prefer a sheet of paper with F**K OFF written on it and a goodly dusting of flour (self raising or plain, it's a personal choice really). That'll get them wondering what the white powder is and they'll forget everything else.:E

Maybe I should don a pair of green tights and retire to Sherwood Forest?

Make sure they're Hi-Viz Green or you'll get busted under Elf'n'Safety

The Parking Charge Notice (PCN just like a real Penalty Charge Notice)

Not like at all, in fact a world of difference.

Have got a couple on my desk at present, can't remember the legal principles, but it's som'at to do with them (the landowner) relying on you making a contract with them by reading the sign when you enter the car park. I think it's also difficult for the parking companies to ascertain the details of the driver.

"Parking Eye" recently tried it on in the courts, but lost good style. (Have a look at the awarding of the costs in the judgement.)

West Lakes video seems to sum the situation up.

Meanwhile, it's free parking at Fistral :) Some of the dudes I've spoken to have collected seven or eight notices.

At the moment you don't have to pay, there is no law stating you have to and it's never, ever, been tested in court. One thing everyone needs to be aware of is the protection of Freedoms bill going through parliament, in particular clause 56 (http://www.stopclause56.org.uk/). Which will allow private parking companies to issue a fine to the Registered Keeper of a vehicle. This is greater powers than your council have as they can only ask who was driving the vehicle and not fine the registered keeper. I've had correspondence with my local MP about clause 56, in particular the so called safeguards.

Here's an extract from my email to my MP following his first response, after this he wrote the S of S for Transport (or some such fancy title) and sent me a copy of their anodyne response.
"Unfortunately for me it was the standard anodyne response cobbled together by the DfT and I urge you to examine what they're saying in more detail. The safeguards mentioned are insufficiently robust to provide protection to the average driver. Your response states that the parking company must be a member of the DVLA Accredited Trade association, which is quite a simple matter to join for the cost of a few thousand pounds. You also state that they must abide by the Code of Practice but who is actually policing this 'Code of Practice'? The answer is that it's the companies themselves who are doing so and this is simply not acceptable. Clause 56 seeks to provide parking companies with the full weight of the law to enforce their 'fines', in which case there MUST be a statutory independent appeals process put in place BEFORE this becomes law. To state that the Transport Minister is working with BPA to establish such an independent process is not a sufficient safeguard prior to this becoming law. Based on similar experiences I have no doubt that once passed into the statute books the independent process will wither and die away unless it is formally agreed prior to the law being passed.
Once again I urge you to give your most careful consideration to what this clause means for the average driver. Effectively if this is passed you will be giving greater powers to private parking companies than local authorities enjoy. A local authority must first serve notice on the registered keeper requiring them to supply the name of the driver. If they did not respond this was an offence for which they could be prosecuted. It would appear that with clause 56 parliament is creating an absolute offence purely for the benefit of a commercial undertaking."

This is as good an explanation as you can get: -

Firstly, the legal stuff.

Only councils, the police, train operators and Transport for London can impose legally enforceable fines or penalties. A private parking company (PPC) or an individual can't. Even PPCs call their tickets “Parking Charge Notices”, not “Penalty Charge Notices”. In law, they’re called “speculative invoices”.

Any warning signs are usually so badly positioned and worded, that they won’t have created a fair and legally binding deemed contract between the car park owner and a driver entering the car park in the first place. See The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/50) and Excel Parking Services vs. Cutts, Stockport, 2011.

All the car park owner (CPO) can claim from a driver in damages for any breach of contract is what they’ve lost as a result. If this is a free car park or they paid, this is £0.00. Demanding more has been judged to be unreasonable and therefore an unfair contract penalty under the terms of The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/50), which is not legally enforceable. See Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd. vs. New Garage & Motor Co. Ltd., House of Lords, 1914 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunlop_Pneumatic_Tyre_Co_Ltd_v_New_Garage_%26_Motor_Co_Ltd) and countless cases since.

There are also now two recent court cases, VCS Parking Control vs. Ronald Ibbotson, S!!!!horpe, 2012 and VCS Parking Control vs. HM Revenue & Customs, Upper Tax Tribunal, 2012. In both cases, the judges found that only the car park owner can take drivers to court. The Upper Tax Tribunal is a court of record, equivalent to the High Court, and therefore its judgement sets a legal precedent.

The Blue Badge scheme doesn’t apply to private car parks. Anyone, who’s disabled under the terms of The Equality Act 2010 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents) can use a disabled parking bay. If they’re also Blue Badge holders, they don't need to display it.

What should I do now?

We don’t condone not paying or overstaying in a pay car park. If you do owe the CPO anything, then you ought to write to them, offering this in “full and final settlement”.

In any event, you ought to advise the CPO that they are "jointly and severally liable" for the actions of their agents, the PPC, and that any further actions by them would be regarded as harassment under the terms of The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/contents). That ought to make the CPO call off the PPC and, hopefully, realise the potential cost of doing business with them.

Don’t appeal to the PPC. They always reject them. What’s in it for them to let anyone off? Actually, there is something in it for them: information. They need to know the identity of the driver of the vehicle involved at the time, because that’s who the alleged contract was with. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to make do with chasing the registered keeper.

With windscreen notices, an appeal letter will tell them your name and address, and maybe who was driving at the time. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to buy the details of registered keeper from the DVLA. With postal notices, they’ve done this already. But they still need to know the identity of the driver.

They sometimes say that they have the right to ask for this information. This doesn’t mean that you have to tell them.

However, even if you’ve written and told them who the driver was, it doesn’t make their actions any less unlawful. It just means that instead of harassing the registered keeper, they can now harass the driver.

What will they do to me?

The PPC, then a debt collector and then a solicitor will send you a series of letters. The debt collector and solicitor are usually also the PPC, but using different headed paper. These letters will threaten you with every kind of financial and legal unpleasantness imaginable, to intimidate you into paying.

But, they can't actually do anything, for the same reason that a Nigerian e-mail scammer couldn't sue anyone who didn’t pay them.

What should I do then?

Continue to ignore everything you get from the PPC and their aliases. It does seem counter-intuitive to deal with something by ignoring it. Eventually, they will run out of empty threats, and stop throwing good money after bad.

The PPC, then a debt collector and then a solicitor will send you a series of letters.
Full list of examples here. (http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=2214803) Best advice is to ignore them, writing back and telling them to do one simply encourages them.

You're on to why I'm doing this BDiONU. I'm afraid that I'm too late to create national publicity against Clause 56, but we need to give it a go. Even if the "Freedom" act goes through into law, that doesn't stop us making an issue of it.

What is really odd about this car park is that the owners are the developers of the estate. The activities of UKPC. discourage visitors and reduce footfall within the shopping area. One restaurant went out of business two years ago and the premises have lain empty since. Another shop unit has remained unused for the same amount of time. Those businesses that continue to operate are unhappy about the lack of custom. This should be a thriving commercial area but it is blighted by the parking sharks.

Silly question about these "tickets"...

Since they don't seem to hold the weight of law what would/could be done against a person who does not receive said ticket?

If nothing why doesn't everyone who sees one on a windshield other than their own simply remove it and lob it in the bin? What could be done to someone who removed one who wasn't the owner?

generally you don't get a ticket, you get som'at through the post after they pay for the privilege from the DVLA.

Thanks... That explains that then.

Just chuck em in the bin. Had two of these, after the second or third threatening letter they give up.
If i felt genuinly guilty about where i parked i would pay up.
One was a well known fast food outlet were i overstayed by 15min because i was busy inside buying and eating what they pass for food, the other a country park, well thats what they claim it is, with kids riding quad bikes and yobs doing doughnuts on the carpark throwing stones everywhere.
Overstayed the 20min grace period by 5min apparently.
Both cases pay up £35 or £70 in the future.
Then come the threats of baliffs.

Not all Pirates are off the coast of Somalia!

As a matter of interest, if I come back to the UK on holiday, rent a car and then fall foul of this sort of nonsense, what would be the likely reaction of the hire car company?

Would they ignore the notice as is recommended here, or would they pass on the driver's (renter's) details?

I suspect the latter.

As a matter of interest, if I come back to the UK on holiday, rent a car and then fall foul of this sort of nonsense, what would be the likely reaction of the hire car company?

Would they ignore the notice as is recommended here, or would they pass on the driver's (renter's) details?




Probably neither, most, I suspect, would pay it and then invoice you/grab it off you credit card along with a big administration fee.

Probably neither, most, I suspect, would pay it and then invoice you/grab it off you credit card along with a big administration fee.

Dead right. I found my credit card bill had been debited for an extra charge separate from the rental fee. When I queried this I was told it was a speeding fine and administration fee. If you read the small print of car rental agreements you'll find you have agreed to this in your contract.

Don't start me off on the Congestion charge which I knew nowt about and incurred the penalty duly extracted via credit card from the car rental co.

doesn't everyone who sees one on a windshield other than their own simply remove it and lob it in the bin?

Well, sometimes it's because they simply remove it and put it on someone else's windshield!

Or that's done by a group of kids (with a sense of mischief that should be encouraged) changing them all round in a car park.

So what happens if one comes to the UK, rents a car, gets a parking claim - even a legitimate one - and having gone back abroad, :}cancelled the credit card and paid it off in full? Especially if you change your address....

@<hidden>

The credit card company will continue to pursue you as it is of course normal - and permitted - that transactions can be debited long after the actual date and the debt remains valid even if the card used has subsequently expired/been cancelled .

The text of a speech to the BPA by the head of the Plain English Society

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/plcdev/files/138/original/CuttsTalk10July2012copy.pdf

The text of a speech to the BPA by the head of the Plain English Society http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/plcdev/files/138/original/CuttsTalk10July2012copy.pdfIn other words, go do one! Fabulous stuff, I've sent the link to my MP.

The text of a speech to the BPA by the head of the Plain English Society

Brilliant speech! I think he shares the view I expressed earlier in the thread.....

the reality, that these companies are set up and run on the outer fringes of the law by a bunch of profiteering gangsters who pay to join the BPA after filling out a form and have never, ever been audited in any meaningful sense by the BPA or anyone else,

The text of a speech to the BPA by the head of the Plain English Society

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/plcdev/files/138/original/CuttsTalk10July2012copy.pdf

Good speech. Strong words, but where is the action? According to the speech MP's have already been conned into giving parking companies more powers.

Unless a speech like that is actually effective it is all just fine words.

where is the action? Exactly!

I'll be organising a mass, Masked Park-in event once they've given up on me or I've either been made to pay by the District Judge, whichever.

Drivers to wear 'Justine Greening' masks, collect PCNs and then a bonfire of the tickets. Press called in to witness the fun.

We might be able to get on TV too, as one son-in-law runs a media company that produces adverts (think Lady in Red, Elastoplast etc.) and has sold footage to ITV News (Student riots in Whitehall and the start of the Tottenham riots outside the police station)