Another Monarch question (re hand luggage)

[adambsmith]

We're due to fly to Orlando Sanford from Manchester with Monarch (although Avro are handling the booking)in the next few weeks.

Looking at the emails we have had from Avro, they state a ridiculously small size of hand baggage in terms of dimensions. My trusty small rucksack is too big even under those rules.

Looking at Monarch's website and it shows (with flight codes commencing with MON which we are on) far more 'normal' dimensions for hand baggage but the same weight restriction ie 5 kilos.

Anyone been recently? If so can you confirm the hand baggage policy with Monarch on MON flight codes?

[TSR2]

Looking at the emails we have had from Avro, they state a ridiculously small size of hand baggage in terms of dimensions.

Unfortunately you do not state how ridiculously small the dimensions are.

From the Monarch website, all flights with MON flight codes have a 5Kg hand baggage allowance with dimensions not to exceed 56 x 45 x 25cm which is a reasonable size for the weight allowance. Also remember, your 5Kg hand baggage allowance is part of your 20Kg hold baggage allowance.

Enjoy your holiday.

[adambsmith]

From the email:

BAGGAGE: Excess valuation may be declared on certain types of articles. Carriers may apply special rules for fragile, valuable, or perishable articles. Check with your carrier. Checked Baggage: Carriers may permit a free checked baggage allowance, which is set by the carrier and may differ by class, and/or route. Carriers may apply extra charges for checked baggage in excess of their permitted allowance. Check with your carrier. Cabin (Unchecked) Baggage: Only ONE small item of cabin baggage per passenger will be allowed into the aircraft (subject to space availability) MAXIMUM SIZE: 17” x 11” x 9” (43cm x 28cm x 23cm) MAXIMUM WEIGHT: 11lbs (5kg). It is recommended that cabin baggage be kept to a minimum. Check with your carrier. If more than one carrier is providing the transportation for your journey, each carrier may apply different rules on baggage (both checked and cabin). SPECIAL BAGGAGE LIABILITY LIMITATIONS FOR US TRAVEL: For domestic travel wholly between US points, federal rules require any limit on a carrier’s baggage liability to be at least US$3000.00 per passenger, or the amount currently mandated by 14 CFR 254.5.

Where does it say on the website that the 5 kilos is included in the 20kilos?

[adambsmith]

Ah spotted the bit about the 5kgs is included in the 20kg.

Jesus-wish I'd gone with someone else now.

[adambsmith]

And then from the first email:


Please note that your per person hold baggage allowance is 20kgs. You also have an additional maximum 5kgs of hand baggage per person. *


How inconsistent....

[ExXB]

From the email:

BAGGAGE: Excess valuation may be declared on certain types of articles. Carriers may apply special rules for fragile, valuable, or perishable articles. Check with your carrier. Checked Baggage: Carriers may permit a free checked baggage allowance, which is set by the carrier and may differ by class, and/or route. Carriers may apply extra charges for checked baggage in excess of their permitted allowance. Check with your carrier. Cabin (Unchecked) Baggage: Only ONE small item of cabin baggage per passenger will be allowed into the aircraft (subject to space availability) MAXIMUM SIZE: 17” x 11” x 9” (43cm x 28cm x 23cm) MAXIMUM WEIGHT: 11lbs (5kg). It is recommended that cabin baggage be kept to a minimum. Check with your carrier. If more than one carrier is providing the transportation for your journey, each carrier may apply different rules on baggage (both checked and cabin). SPECIAL BAGGAGE LIABILITY LIMITATIONS FOR US TRAVEL: For domestic travel wholly between US points, federal rules require any limit on a carrier’s baggage liability to be at least US$3000.00 per passenger, or the amount currently mandated by 14 CFR 254.5.

Monarch sent you this? What's all this malarky about 'more than one carrier', they don't interline. And as they are not a US carrier they have no traffic rights for 'domestic travel wholly between US points'.

Something funny here, it looks like they copied a US carriers CoC word for word. I'm beginning to doubt their professionalism.

[adambsmith]

I have now had an e-mail from customer services saying that the dimensions of hand baggage are 56x45x25 (cm) and must not exceed 5 kilos in weight.

I will have that e-mail on my iPhone when checking in just in case.

5 kilos is a bit miserly though.

We flew Jet2.com to Faro last month and they had a 10 kilo limit with similar dimensions :*

[adambsmith]

Monarch sent you this? What's all this malarky about 'more than one carrier', they don't interline. And as they are not a US carrier they have no traffic rights for 'domestic travel wholly between US points'.

Something funny here, it looks like they copied a US carriers CoC word for word. I'm beginning to doubt their professionalism.

Yep it was on an e-mail I received late last week. Confusing and inconsistent.

[Bealzebub]

Monarch sent you this? What's all this malarky about 'more than one carrier', they don't interline. And as they are not a US carrier they have no traffic rights for 'domestic travel wholly between US points'.

Something funny here, it looks like they copied a US carriers CoC word for word. I'm beginning to doubt their professionalism.

If that is the case, then their professionalism is far superior to your ability to Google! Because if you did, you would quickly discover that the wording is a set down part of the ICAO Montreal convention text. More formally, The Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules for International Carriage by Air.

All airlines use it.

[TSR2]

Yep it was on an e-mail I received late last week. Confusing and inconsistent.

I understood that the e-mails you received were from AVRO not Monarch.

[ExXB]

Rubbish.

MC99 does not stipulate the provisions any carrier must reflect in their terms and conditions. You can read it here http://www.dot.gov/ost/ogc/Montreal1999.pdf if you want.

MC99 certainly does not define what an airline may, or may not, accept as hold or cabin baggage.

The language I see here almost certainly has been copied word for word from an airline that interlines and flies US domestic flights, with traffic rights. Monarch does neither and it only confuses the issue.

How is the punter supposed to understand the statement, repeated twice "Check with your carrier". This is in an email from their carrier, why should they ...

Monarch should have tailored their language to reflect their business model and operations. Of course they must not deviate from MC99 provisions, but the only thing in this paragraph that actually comes from MC99 is the very first sentence.

They should be more careful to have clear terms and conditions, as courts are much more likely to throw out terms that are not clear.

However, that is their problem.

[Bealzebub]

Mea culpa. Laziness on my part.

The wording is drawn from IATA standard conditions of carriage which incorporate The Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules for International Carriage by Air, although of no relevance.

The wording is a notice of the contract terms incorporated by reference to the standard document. As such it is used by most airlines. Indeed, if you google the paragraph, you will see endless pages of professional airlines who utilize it as a constituent part of their contractual conditions of carriage. It certainly hasn't been copied from another airline. Neither does it suggest any lack of professionalism on the part of this airline.

[adambsmith]

Yes the emails are from Avro (part of the Monarch Group).

[ExXB]

Yes IATA's RP1724 (General Conditions of Carriage (Passenger and Baggage)) is the boiler plate text (approved by many governments) for airlines' Conditions of Carriage. This is important mainly when two or more airlines may be included on the same ticket (interline), having consistent provisions actually helps the punter. However it is not obligatory, it is a Recommended Practice and airlines are expected to tailor their own CoC to suit their business model, the environment they work in and local law. Monarch are not an IATA member.

As an example this is what BA, a good IATA Member, says on Baggage: See: British Airways - General Conditions of Carriage (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/genconcarr1/public/en_us) for the full text, 'cause I deleted a lot here.

(RP1724 contains about 10 paragraphs on this subject, sorry I couldn't find any copyable text but you can google it)

8. Baggage

8a) Your free baggage allowance

We will carry some of your baggage free of charge. Your free baggage allowance will be shown on your ticket, or in the case of an electronic ticket, on your itinerary and receipt and will depend on our baggage regulations applying at the time of your flight. If you are in doubt, please ask us or our authorised agents for details of your free baggage allowance and our baggage regulations.

8b) Excess baggage

You will have to pay a charge for the carriage of baggage over your free baggage allowance. Please ask us or our authorised agents for details of our excess baggage rates.

8c) Items you must not carry in baggage

You must not carry the following in your baggage (whether as checked baggage or unchecked baggage). [... deleted a lot of text here ...]

8d) Firearms [... deleted a lot of text here ...]
8e) Dangerous items you must not take with you on to the plane [... deleted a lot of text here ...]

8f) Fragile or perishable items must not be packed in baggage checked into the hold [... deleted a lot of text here ...]

8g) Our right to refuse to carry checked baggage not properly and securely packed

We will refuse to carry checked baggage if we reasonably believe that it is not properly and securely packed in suitable containers.

8h) Our right to search, screen and x-ray you and your baggage [... deleted a lot of text here ...]

8i) Checked baggage (baggage checked into the hold)

8i1) You must put your name on each item of checked baggage.

8i2) When you check in your checked baggage, we will give you a baggage identification tag for each piece.

8i3) We will carry your checked baggage, whenever possible, on the same aircraft as you, [... deleted a lot of text here ...]

8j) Unchecked baggage (baggage you carry on to the plane)

8j1) We set maximum dimensions and weights for unchecked baggage, which must also: fit under the seat in front of you, or fit in an enclosed storage compartment in the cabin of the aircraft.

8j2)If your unchecked baggage is larger than the maximum dimensions or weights; does not fit under the seat in front of you or in an enclosed storage compartment or we decide it is not safe,
you must check it in as checked baggage.

8j3) If you have an item of baggage (such as a musical instrument) larger or heavier [... deleted a lot of text here ...]

8k) Collecting and delivering baggage checked into the hold [... deleted a lot of text here ...]

8l) Animals [... deleted a lot of text here ...]

Although I am not a fan of BA, their Coc, albeit longer, are much clearer for the punters to understand.

So IMHO Monarchs Coc (at least as referenced in their / AVROs e-mail) fails on two accounts.

1. It fails to convey valid and accurate information to their customers,
2. Is so vague and confusing it risks being thrown out (i.e. not being considered a valid contract) under EC Directive 93/13/EEC on unfair terms in consumer contracts (and respective national law implementing such directive).

But, as I said, that's their problem.

[TSR2]

Interesting, but poor adambsmith only asked what the handbaggage allowance is on MON flights.

My recommendation would be to e-mail Monarch Airlines to confirm that the handbaggage allowance is 5Kg in a bag no larger than 56x45x25cm and a hold allowance of an additional 15Kg per the Monarch website.

[Hotel Tango]

Yep, this is what you get when you get hooked in by airlines that offer you cheaper fares than the legacy airlines and then make it almost impossible for you to fly without incurring additional costs for this, that and the other. In future, stick to the legacy carriers! If you book early enough you won't pay that much more (perhaps even less)!!

[adambsmith]

Well, I've now had emails from Avro saying that the hand baggage allowance is:

5kgs with dimensions (cm) of 56x45x25

Hold baggage:

20kgs limit -this being in addition to the hand baggage.

Very inconsistent and confusing from Avro and Monarch. :=

[A2QFI]

And BA's is 20kg AND a handbag or laptop.