Words come back to haunt you ?

[AnglianAV8R]

Moving around an accumulation of old magazines due to decorating. Picked up 'RAF Yearbook 2008' and allowed myself to be shamefully distracted for the decorating...

"The MRA4 has to be able to do a maritime reconnaissance role. There are still plenty of countries in the world that own, for example, attack submarines, and when we are a nation - as I hope we will be - that owns two CVFs in the middle of the next decade, I would suggest that you're not going to play fast and loose with the safety of those vessels."

ACM Sir Clive Loader, Air Command, RAF.

Don't suppose he'd want to discuss the implications of a certain decision, bearing in mind that he's conservative candidate for Police Commissioner in Leicestershire.

[Doctor Cruces]

Whether we own 2 CVFs to protect or not, we are an island race and not to have MR capability is the most stupid decision since........... well I can't think of anything more stupid at the moment but when I do it will be the most stupid decision since that!

Doc C

[oxenos]

There will be another one along soon.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Since we only need carriers where we can't access a land base, and Nimrod needs a land base, and there's no big threat in the North Atlantic now; it would seem that his 2008 statement wasn't the best.
A carrier-borne MRA would seem to be what we need.

[Pheasant]

A carrier-borne MRA would seem to be what we need.

We have an MRA - Merlin! What is more the CVF will be able to carry lots of them.

[Melchett01]

A carrier-borne MRA would seem to be what we need

Can't think of how we would do that off the top of my head. You could scratch you head and spend billions working up a horribly complex and overly expensive solution, or you could just go for something along the lines of the Viking until a better idea comes along.

On reflection, lets go down the spend billions and come up with something complex.

[AnglianAV8R]

Melchett, perhaps a compromise ? BAe to be supplied with a dozen S3 Viking airframes from the desert places and re-work them to V/STOL configuration. Timescale planned to 5 years and cost circa xyz £billion.
Fifteen years later, 3 are completed at final cost of circa 5x xyz £billions.
New government is elected and conducts a review. They get scrapped.

[VinRouge]

The only VSO I and many colleagues met and took an instant dislike to.

[Pontius Navigator]

We have an MRA - Merlin! What is more the CVF will be able to carry lots of them.

Given the lack of a fixed-wing, or sufficient fix-wing, there would certainly be enough room.

[chopper2004]

At Waddo show last weekend, I spoke to the Saab reps by their MPA demo and they said with the increase of diesel subs in 'questionable' hands, it makes life very interesting for the ASW club. I was quite surprised to find out that the modern diesel subs are harder to find/track then the nuclear ones, from the Saab lot. I personally thought it was easier to track diesel as opposed to the ultra quiet nuclear lot.

[tucumseh]

I think ACM Loader's comments should be put in context.

He was the man who contradicted the Minister for the Armed Forces (Adam Ingram) when he wrote (confirmed what everyone knew anyway, but Ingram had flatly denied) in the XV230 BoI report that systemic airworthiness failings existed in MoD.

I dare say he was PNG among his senior colleagues, especially the retired ones like Alcock, Bagnall and Graydon who hadn't the honesty or integrity to put their hands up and confess they had overseen the failures and refused to correct them.

I know which one I'd rather have in the police post.

[Biggus]

chopper2004

Why?

The diesel engine is (historically) only used to recharge the batteries when necessary. What you refer to as "diesel" submarines are actually electric submarines using battery power to drive propulsion systems. Compare the engine noise from a diesel car to that from a battery powered one! Battery driven submarines are very quiet.....

[Baldeep Inminj]

It seems that earlier comments on this thread are being ignored. WE HAVE A MARITIME PATROL AIRCRAFT!!! The Merlin is superb at this role - speak to the guys and gals at a secret airbase in Cornwall. It is the dogs danglies and really rather competent at this role. The fixed wing brethren need to understand that they do not have a monopoly on ability or effectiveness. Need supplies delivered to a mountain site in Afghanistan? Answer...rotary. Want rescuing? Rotary. Need some bad men killed at close quarter? Rotary (AH - anyone care to argue?!). Need a maritime aircraft that can move with the fleet and kill subs - ...you know the rest...

Students in RAF flying training are now overwhelmingly asking for rotary as choice 1 as they want to fly on ops and go to war, make a difference, and see the sharp end. It used to be jets. They are history. It is now rotary, and has been for some time.

[Biggus]

BI,

Planning on doing any deep field ASW (or even ASuW)? Say to counter a potential SSN-19 threat. How far out is your Merlin going to operate? How much time will it spend transiting to and from the CV, and how much time will it have on task when it gets there? Get a hint of a contact 100nm from your nearest asset and time late becomes a factor in the area size to search when you get something there, compare transit times for a 100kt ish asset vs a 300kt ish asset.

ASW and ASuW done properly are multi platform events. An MPA isn't the sole answer, neither is a helo. Each asset has its own strengths and weaknesses, and plays a part in providing a layered solution. One of the layers has been removed, end of story......

[Phoney Tony]

Carrier based assets require a massive logistic trail which has to be delivered by sea. What happens when the SS is high and flyops are not possible? - you have an expensive venue for a cocktail party going around in circles.

[BEagle]

I dare say he was PNG among his senior colleagues, especially the retired ones like Alcock, B*****l and Graydon who hadn't the honesty or integrity to put their hands up and confess they had overseen the failures and refused to correct them.

That'll be a large G&T please, tuc!

[AnglianAV8R]

Tuc, I certainly wouldn't take exception to anything you post on here. I have a great deal of respect for how you've been a determined contender for the truth on matters of airworthiness. If Mr Loader spoke the truth in respect of causal factors in the loss of XV230, then I'm impressed. :ok:

However, perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough in terms of where I was heading. Former high ranking officer who had potential to upset the apple cart for those worthless inhabitants of the Palace of Westminster is now firmly in their camp. So, highly unlikely to be willing to speak out against, say, David Cameron on the decision to cease having a long range maritime patrol capability. :mad:

My reason for opening the thread was simply that I had a casual read of the article and his words leapt out of the page. I wonder if he's lurking hereabouts? :suspect:

[tucumseh]

Anglian

I understand your point entirely. I'd just tend to give Sir Clive the benefit of any doubt because he has demonstrated honesty and integrity in the face of senior officers and politicians who were openly hostile toward anyone pointing out the airworthiness failings, were willing to lie to achieve their goals and haven't shown one bit of remorse even when caught lying. That they were found out is down to people like Loader, regardless of his political persuasion. But I accept that he is treading dangerous ground because the politicians' failure to act against these criminals shows where their loyalty lies.



Beags - You must be permanently ratted!

[orca]

Phoney Tony,

Come along dear chap, if the sea state's up you can't have a cockers p can you?

That's why we don't leave these things to amateurs!;)

[Melchett01]

Baldeep,

I thought this thread was about other peoples' words coming back to haunt them, not the posters on here.

The word Patrol in Maritime Patrol implies endurance and range, neither of which the Merlin is overly endowed with in comparison with larger fixed wing platforms (I'm not saying the name lest we start the other thread up again :p)

[air pig]

No, nukes have to keep the pumps circulating the coolant to the reactor whereas a diesel can turn everything off virtually to become noise free.

[AnglianAV8R]

Melchett, That'd be why I referred to Long range maritime patrol :ok:

[Al R]

Baldeep,

WE HAVE A MARITIME PATROL AIRCRAFT!!! The Merlin is superb at this role - speak to the guys and gals at a secret airbase in Cornwall. It is the dogs danglies and really rather competent at this role. The fixed wing brethren need to understand that they do not have a monopoly on ability or effectiveness. Need supplies delivered to a mountain site in Afghanistan? Answer...rotary. Want rescuing? Rotary. Need some bad men killed at close quarter? Rotary (AH - anyone care to argue?!). Need a maritime aircraft that can move with the fleet and kill subs - ...you know the rest...

I'm not qualified to discuss the merits of rotary vs fixed wing. Is a helicopter as defendable when the chips are down though, in the maritime role?

[ExAscoteer]

WE HAVE A MARITIME PATROL AIRCRAFT!!! The Merlin is superb at this role


Pray tell, how is Merlin going to protect the CVs from subs equipped with missiles like the SS-N-19 or similar?

[Knight Paladin]

What's that? A dark blue type with no actual understanding of air warfare, playing gifted amateur at the professional's game? Well, that's a first...

[orca]

Did I misunderstand or did someone fit 'go on ops', 'go to war', 'make a difference' and lastly 'sharp end' into a sentence about grey Merlin?

Well, hurrah!

If only there was some way fixed wing air power could contribute to the 'odd couple of things' not encompassed by mountain re-supply, rescue, killing baddies at close range and ASW. Which technically can be solved by donkey, small boat, knife, big boat (or a sand bank (just) off Scotland).

I saw a jet just the other day - must have been a museum piece. I also saw a helicopter crop dusting which I thought looked quite good fun. Then I noticed an aeroplane doing the same thing and came to my very own opinion that maybe the two were complimentary. I couldn't help wondering whether the same was true of military aviation and in fairness didn't stop to see if a crop dusting drone showed up.

[ICBM]

Orca,

The Old Flying Machine Co have Typhoon FGR and Tornado GR4 in their collection, for those who are too young to remember. They are kept flying to remind us of the days of yore when such platforms were key to the liberation of the Libyan people, the sovereign defence of the UK' airspace (including an Olympiad).

Clearly they could never replace the Swiss Army Wokka these days - that would be absurd.

Ask anybody going through EFT right now; they all want to fly helicopters. Been that way since 1903

:ugh:

[Biggus]

ExAscoteer,

Didn't I say that in post 14......?

Or is my post invisible? Must be, as nobody has commented on it...

[ExAscoteer]

So you did Biggus, I must have missed your post.

Terribly sorry.

[davejb]

I read it too, and swear it will leave a deep and abiding impression,
just as soon as I stop laughing about the helo joke the other geezer cracked.

[Rigga]

Back to the OP's point:
I never liked that prat, but if he's as honest as Tuc says he may make a strange politician.
I would worry about the future of police under the control of any ex-military star-holder - they are not a force but a service.

[grousehunter]

Baldeep!!!

Ha Ha Ha Ha!

Good work.

Yoof today eh?

Bet your mates from MR2 on Merlin don't agree with you. ;)

[MountainMetman]

Regarding the OP of words coming back to haunt us - I feel that any statement about the military needs of/threats to the UK should be followed by the phrase "but of course any threat to the UK will be dependant on our government, not the changeable powers overseas. After all, new politicians will have fresh new ideas about the nature of dangers to our shores and they are naturally the best placed to decide how to meet these threats."

[AnglianAV8R]

Oh dear, that is more frightening than the mere threat of an SSBN strike :\

[Self Loading Freight]

It'll all change again when autonomous submarines get going properly. With no need to keep the jolly tars fed, watered and oxygenated you get loiter times in years, a flexibility of form factors and function that really is limited only by how smart your computers are, and low, low cost of entry.

(The only thing stopping this being as much of a funfest as UAVs are now is the fact that developed world navies think they're an employment bureau, a factor encouraged by governments. Won't cut much mustard when the balloon goes up - or, most probably, down)

[Tinribs]

Nuc subs have lots of pumps etc running, the smallest error in soundproofing allows sound to escape and sub to be detected, identified

Diesel subs running on batts have only slick electric motors running so no pumpy things

Hardest subs to find are some Dutch which started life as nuc so had lots of soundproofing but government changed so they were no longer acceptable and during build only diesel elect installed so have lots of soundproofing on electric motors silence

[Biggus]

Tinribs,

Thanks - but I actually know quite a bit about submarine noise sources, I was trying to keep things simple and open source......