As well as helping BA finance the BMI takeover by giving up two days leave, average holiday pay entitlement and other cost savings, it looks like BA pilots have been stitched up.

Surely IBERIA flight crew should also be forced to give some productivity in order to finance the BMI takeover, now that it is IAG who are the overall parent company? Why has all the burden been heaped on BA's flight crew? Seems rather unfair.

Now to add insult to injury, BA has given 15 commands to BMI First Officers! This will delay promotion for BA's own F/O's.

What a way to treat such loyal employees!!

Count

Nice try at getting the outrage bus rolling by a lifting a number out of the proposals, shame you haven't given correct context in which that number sits and the various caveats attached to it.

BTW how's life in academia suiting you?

Why would they get rid of ops staff in Madrid because they're absorbing a smaller airline up in London?

count,
a typically simplistic attitude to a complex issue that requires a complex solution-one which I think may have been found.
perhaps just too altruistic for you...

Life can be tough some times!!!

Tell me , what have short haul cabin crew given up to allow the integration? Cheers balpa!

Count,

Have a chat with the BA engineers that due to the BMI merger are facing redundancy or relocation to Heathrow from their Manchester or Edinburgh homes to make way for the new recruits.

Now that's a company kicking you where it hurts.

I'm welling up with your situation.

Don't forget the biggest crime of all here here (and I do mean crime) is that the BMI baby pilots will all be made redundant in about 8 weeks time.
This is set against a backdrop of:

the BMI baby pilots ARE employees of IAG
BA flies the same aircraft type
BA taking on 800 pilots over the next few years (inc the 737 CL)
BA will take many of baby's aircraft and absorb them into the LGW fleet
Lufthansa gave a huge discount to IAG to deal with the baby 'issue'. This figure may soon come to light and is thought to be shocking
BMI baby pilots (who are all employed by British Midland Airways Ltd) will not even get a look into the BA holding pool.

I hope to God someone with balls (obviously not BAlpa) sues their a$$es off.

PS - have you even seen Willie Walsh and Michael O'Leary in the same room at the same time? Top of the morning to you all.

Don't forget the biggest crime of all here here (and I do mean crime) is that the BMI baby pilots will all be made redundant in about 8 weeks time.


Unfortunately, including for an old friend of mine at BMIBaby, the business model of Baby does not fit with IAG, hence IAG did not, nor ever, bid to include either Regional or Baby in their bid for BMI Mainline. IAG, through BA, have no need of regional operators or bases, the only positive asset that Mainline brought with them were the slots. Even the benefit of those will take time to work through. Hence the acceptance of the pilot community to work to a long term plan (XWB350/777X). But, hey, why not spout the Daily Mail headline for the day without considering the future?

BA will even take many of baby's aircraft to join the LGW base once the staff have been terminated.


Can you back this up with proof? Nope, thought not. The Baby aircraft are a completely different mod state to the heaps that BA flies out of LGW, add to that that Airbus have been backfilling already at LGW and the decision for fleet replacement is currently being made that last thing IAG need is a bunch of clapped out old 73's.

BMI baby pilots (who are all employed by British Midland Airways Ltd) will not even get a look into the BA holding pool.


Sad but true, see my original point above.


I hope to God someone with balls (obviously not BAlpa) sues their a$$es off.

Yep, someone sue LH for not managing to sell off the two parts of the company that LH originally agreed to sell off but couldn't. Thus dumping them onto IAG (BA NEVER bought BMI) as a cost reduction negative liability. The reduced purchase cost of Mainline with Regional and Baby was there to cover winding up costs. LH dumped BMI unceremoniously. The pensions minister and the pensions regulator need a rocket fired at them for abandoning BMI by allowing LH to dump the pension into the hands of the UK regulator. LH screwed BMI right royally. Without a buyout the slots would have reverted to BAA Heathrow and the bidding would have begun. There would, however, have been far, far more redundancies.

Out of interest under what legal ruling would you 'sue' anybody anyway? If a small independant company had bought up the BMI group and then announced they couldn't support Regional and Baby the headline would have been different. 'New startup saves 350 jobs, unfortunately redundancies due but many jobs saved' etc... IAG through BA are not a charity and not there to absorb all pilot jobs from companies that were foisted on to them.

So, Penguin, just like the 'Count' pick your cherries and complain without knowing the business reasons behind the action or the true nature of the major participants.

I understand all the business arguements.
The point is that IAG have done NOTHING to even attempt to mitigate redundancies at BMI baby.

With regards to the aircraft - standby

As city flyer states BA is currently 'overborne' with pilots.

IAG never wanted BMI regional or Baby. Thus they came as a cost reduction to cover the cost of redundancies. What mitigation should they apply to a business they never wanted and came as an administrative headache?

If you buy a repossesion house from the bank do you have to give accomodation to the previous owners???

Companies ave been wound up all over the country throughout this recession why should the airline industry be any different? Or perhaps BA should have integrated all on a zippered seniority and then applied last in first out on the MSL? Would that calm your sense of outrage?

All BMI companies had 6-8 weeks of trading left at the time of takeover. For Baby the resulting redundancies were, sadly, inevitable.

Im sure if BMIbaby had been LGW based you would all now be employees of BA along with your former mainline colleagues...

But your operation never presented a threat to the MSL or the risk of a "BA Express" out of London and is therefore of no concern to Balpa and the mainline folk.

Im sure if BMIbaby had been LGW based

To be honest, given that fact, then Baby probably would have been integrated. They would have bought their own capacity to one of the two airports that BA operates from thus making integration into the core business easy.

They don't.

IAG wanted the slots so they can slowly be converted to profitablt LH slots. Filling up those slots with creaky 73's to destinations that don't feed the LH route structure would be a business disaster.

Nothing to do with MSL 'threats' or 'BA Express' threats, IAG can set up any airline under any AOC they wish, BA pilots or BALPA would have absoloutly no power to stop them, that lesson was learnt under the Openskies dispute.

Purely business. Return profit to the shareholders.

As to the commands, BMI crews have been given 1 command in 100 to satisfy Tupe under future aspirations. As the conversion of SH slots to LH slots will, on average, increase crewing thus commands by 4-5 crews per slot the overall benefit to BA crews will be a net increase in available commands. Something that was looking increasingly difficult in a slot constrained LHR.

Better to plan for the future than end up withering on the vine like a certain dispute ended in recently eh Count?

The point is that IAG have done NOTHING to even attempt to mitigate redundancies at BMI baby.
You are barking up the wrong tree... Why would IAG have to clear up LH's problems? They did not want BMI Baby and they definatly did not want not their problems.... :ugh:

BA has given 15 commands to BMI First Officers!
Untrue.

This will delay promotion for BA's own F/O's.
Also untrue.

The point is that IAG have done NOTHING to even attempt to mitigate redundancies at BMI baby.


Neither were they ever going to.

The responsibility of selling/disposing of Baby was down to Lufthansa. IAG agreed to buy ONLY BMI Mainline. That was all IAG wanted. As Lufthansa couldn't sell Baby or Regional by the time the Mainline purchase deal HAD to be concluded the costs of disposal were deducted from the Mainline purchase price.

This cost reduction means that the costs incurred by IAG in providing redundancy packages will, effectively, be borne by LH.

Without a buyer Baby and Regional were already being made redundant at the time of purchase ........ by Lufthansa.

Do you still believe yourself to be a pilot Count?

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/452263-new-eruption-starting-iceland-merged-8.html#post6470797

The responsibility of selling/disposing of Baby was down to Lufthansa. IAG agreed to buy ONLY BMI Mainline. That was all IAG wanted

You make it sound like IAG have been hoodwinked! AFAIK they agreed to buy the BMI group, encompassing Mainline, Baby and Regional, less whatever Lufty could dispose of seperately.

No point being naive about the sharp practice in big business, but let's be accurate here; IAG agreed to buy Baby!

for all bmi baby pilots, welcome to BA. They don t care really about you (regional pilots) a bit like they didnt care for us under BA CitiExpress. BA were recruiting but we still had to go through all the loops. We did have a guarantee of attendance selection day. All under the fact that CitiExpress took BA cadets after 9/11.

Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

AFAIK they agreed to buy the BMI group, encompassing Mainline, Baby and Regional, less whatever Lufty could dispose of seperately.


Not really. The preliminary negotiation was ONLY for BMI mainline as neither BMI Baby nor Regional were compatible with the BA route structure. Also the only 'tradeable' assets that the BMI group contained were the slots.

The original agreement for £178 million was ONLY for BMI Mainline. The agreement between LH and IAG was that LH would dispose of/sell both Regional AND Baby. This they failed to do thus the cost of the acquisition was reduced as a penalty for leaving IAG the responsibility of disposing of Baby and Regional.

There was no 'hoodwinking' going on but people seem to think that IAG have some innate responsibility to protect jobs in two companies that LH threw to the wolves.

Certainly the primary responsibility for the job losses at Baby lies with the BMI management.

But I fail to see why IAG should be seen in any better light than Lufthansa. Both are busniesses who found Baby on their books as a result of desiring BMI's Heathrow slots and both had an equal "couldn't care less" attitude towards the company.

All legal and, of course, "it's just business".

Both are busniesses who found Baby on their books

Seems that Baby wasn't wanted by anyone. Perhaps the business model was so flawed that neither LH, IAG or any future purchaser was interested.

Seems like the management involved in running Baby have more to accept as far as blame goes then two companies who never even wanted it.

Sadly the employees are the ones who live with the consequences of poor management but that still doesn't mean that IAG have to employ the pilots.

Sadly the employees are the ones who live with the consequences of poor management but that still doesn't mean that IAG have to employ the pilots.

Surely the crux of the issue. Clearly Baby has no future, but am I right in thinking that it's pilots are employees of IAG? I wander if this same "sh@<hidden> happens" attitude will recur if IAG were ever to make redundancies in other parts of its business?

Artie,

I've been in this business for many, many years and have been at the receiving end of 'sh*t happpens' so, if 'sh*t happens' again I'll carry on as normal. Nobody 'owes' me a job, especially IAG, I just need to ensure I have one.

No Baby are not part of IAG as there is no IAG AOC for Baby, they are still operating under the original AOC AFAIK. Thus they are still employees of the Midland holding company.

Now to add insult to injury, BA has given 15 commands to BMI First Officers! This will delay promotion for BA's own F/O's.

Hey... maybe the BA future skippers can call a hunger strike like the chaps from Air India.:} It worked for them and maybe it can work for the lads at BA... just a thought:E.

And there was me thinking IAG owned that Midland holding company.

And there was me thinking IAG owned that Midland holding company.

Which doesn't make them employees of BA or Iberia.

Correct.

But they are employees in the IAG group.

Does that mean that Iberia should give them a job?

Artie,

BMI Baby is only being held long enough to wind it up. If Iberia were to be wound up IAG wouldn't offer the pilots jobs with BA or vice versa. The entire staff at Baby will soon have no airline and therefore must accept redundancy. There is no space for them at either BA or Iberia, if the pilots wish to join then they must complete the standard DEP process like everyone else.

IAG had no intention of buying Baby except in the case they were forced to and it was always going to end in the same result.

That's the end of it.

Crikey. There was a break in the first set of the tennis this afternoon, I picked up my trusty iPad and naively pointed out someone's incorrect statement that IAG only agreed to buy Mainline.

I now face a question of whether Baby pilots should be offerd jobs at Iberia! Clearly, I have entered the lions den, with feelings evidently running high at BA.

Genuine respect and best wishes to all. Elvis has left the building.

The reality of modern business seems to have evaded many airline pilots.:(

The reality of modern business seems to have evaded many airline pilots.
Evading what exactly? Your comment makes no sense whatsoever.

Possibly eluded was the word that eluded you, SM, rather than evaded? Was this what you were alluding to?

Amongst all of this 'fairness' malarchy, where are the calls for Monarch to give the bmi baby pilots a job, without interview etc. They are the ones expanding into baby's territory; surely it is they, not BA/IAG/IB that 'owe' baby pilots a job?

Er, what?

:bored:

2012 News - Flights - Monarch Airlines to expand operations across the Midlands

03 05 2012

- Airline to launch a new base at East Midlands Airport and expand services from Birmingham Airport -

Scheduled leisure airline Monarch has today announced a further expansion of its operations across the Midlands with the launch of a new base at East Midlands Airport, and also the growth of services from Birmingham Airport.

The airline, already a leading leisure carrier at Birmingham Airport, will introduce a new base at East Midlands Airport from late summer 2012 and launch new flights to key leisure destinations across the Mediterranean, including Malaga, Alicante, Palma (Majorca) and Faro (Portugal).

In addition, Monarch will be expanding its operations from Birmingham Airport through the introduction of additional frequencies on existing flights Rome to Malaga, Alicante, Faro and Palma, plus the addition of a new route to Barcelona. A UK base for Monarch since 2005, the airline is already one of Birmingham’s leading scheduled airline, flying over 875,000 passengers every year to over twenty destinations across Europe.

Commenting on the launch of a new base at East Midlands Airport and the expansion of services from Birmingham Airport, Managing Director of Monarch Airlines, Kevin George said, “In light of recent industry changes, opportunities have opened up in the market. Iit has become clear that the Midlands will be underserved as a region in the future, and that there is a lack of quality carriers to serve customers travelling from the area.”

“As an airline with over 40 years heritage and a stronghold in the Midlands already, the expansion of our existing services from Birmingham and the launch of operations from East Midlands makes perfect sense for Monarch, and accelerates the strategy we announced last year to focus on the development of our scheduled operations into key leisure destinations across the Mediterranean, the Canaries and North Africa.”

George continues. “The further expansion of our services from the Midlands will provide even more customers in the Midlands with choice and flexibility and protects jobs at East Midlands Airport in the future”.

Coincidence, or a sudden gap in the market? Why should BA have to give the baby pilots a job when there are more obvious positions becoming available?

As one of the Baby pilots facing redundancy in 8 weeks time - perhaps I might be permitted to share some thoughts.

The Baby business model wasn't flawed per se, it was just starved of investment. Firstly from SMB, and then from DLH who kept throwing money at the LHR operation. Had Baby received the investment and growth it deserved perhaps we would be where JET2 are now.

Secondly, I have a huge amount of respect for my immediate superiors at Baby. They have kept Baby going despite being hamstrung by the board. The people who rubbish the Baby management are extremely wide of the mark.

Thirdly, Baby produced a product that was received very well by the public and we developed a large amount of repeat business from people who didnt relish flying with some of our competitors. Our on time performance and customer satisfaction levels were very good compared to most other LCCs.

I think BA are possibly being short sighted with regards to both Baby pilots and cabin crew. If future pilot requirements at BA are as rumoured and recruitment will recommence in Jan then why overlook an obvious source of talent to which they have unrivalled access? From a purely financial aspect minimising redundancy costs should be a priority - even if pilots have to go on gardening leave until sim slots are available. From a media point of view why risk being painted as the 'bad guy'? Whilst business may be business I think BA have received such a large discount from DLH they can afford to be a little less hard nosed than they are currently. I understand the BALPA negotiations have hit a brick wall and BA are penny pinching to the extreme. Our holiday pay claim has been dismissed as being "too bl**dy expensive". Meanwhile BA are happy to pocket revenues from our peak season for which they had zero input.

Whilst I'm sure there are some at BA who will disagree with my sentiments I'm happy to agree to disagree. I have friends at BA who are rather bemused by the treatment Baby pilots and cabin crew are receiving.

Looker,

Whilst I agree with your sentiments (my comment on management was at a senior level who dictated policy for the entire group) I find it interesting that many on this board for pilots seem to think that BA Pilots have the power within IAG to influence Board level decisions.

Let's make no mistake here, employees such as the pilot body had and will have no influence on the purchase of BMI, the use of BMI subsiduarys and the employment of BMI employees. Once the board level decisions have been made we might fool ourselves into thinking that we have influence over the integration but, to be honest, IAG will just do what they want to achieve their aims with the least resistance. If that aim ties in with the pilot community then all the better.

I feel really sorry for the guys and girls at Baby, as I've said before a friend of mine is loosing his job as well. The sad fact of life is that these decisions will never be influenced by Pilots or BALPA. I agree that a pool of talent is being wasted but that doesn't bother the Board as they are also refusing to extend the 18 months swimming limit for DEP's in the hold pool. Sometimes the arrogance and sheer offhandedness of some of the management is astounding!

Baby will have been cast off purely and simply for the fact that the routes don't fit into the London 'Hub' structure and the aircraft are, potentially, going to be a type BA no longer flies. Airbus=Shorthaul.

Good luck

Integrating BMI pilots was BALPA's throw of the dice to halt BA Express. The price paid has been very heavy for Mainline BA pilots, especially in future career progression.

Now with so many unemployed flight crew available, BA Express may yet become a reality? Will Willie do it?

How strange to see the Count trolling on these forums - making wild and random claims about stuff that he does not really understand.

The Count's original post didn't create the furore he was expecting (because the people involved understand the issues at a level he never will) so he's back here trying again.

What a sad, desperate, crest fallen person you are Count.

If the proposal was as bad as the count seems to infer and BA pilots have been "stitched up" then they will simply vote the proposal down. The representation they have received from their professional organisation has ensured they have that option.

Since the count was involved in another organisation in the recent past could he remind us of the voter turnout/result percentages in his organisation's vote on the acceptance or otherwise of Mixed Fleet at LHR?

Oh hang on.....

It is very unlikely that there will be any convergence in the aims of IAG management and the aspirations of BA Flight Crew in the future. IAG are determined to start a low cost short haul operation that will harmonise with Iberia Express. Any hopes by BALPA members that a line has been drawn under the BMI integration are very much mistaken.

Unfortunately hundreds of them were distracted when they volunteered to serve drinks, something which their new 'colleagues' at BMI found abhorrent. Now as some here scoffed not long ago at the creation of the new low cost Mixed Fleet, the threat from integration of BMI is not as serious for the Legacy cabin crew as for the pilot community. Even a £10,000 bribe couldn't convince many BMI cabin crew to join Mixed Fleet.

BMI Baby employees have been treated very shabbily, and there is some similarity with the plight of Dan Air flight crew when BA took over that operation.

Dan-Air pilots to fight BA over payouts - Business - News - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/danair-pilots-to-fight-ba-over-payouts-1470896.html)

Even a £10,000 bribe couldn't convince many BMI cabin crew to join Mixed Fleet.
Yeah I too think it is a shame that BASSA were so inflexible that the company were forced into starting up MF.

Ah, Count, are you still looking for justification to drink that 'Champagne on ice'?

Unlike a certain group, who were so rampant on regaining lost Staff travel and achieving 'justice' for members sacked for legitimate reasons they completely lost the plot on the formation of a non cohesive sub group doing the same job on a completely different contract with specific allocated, non group mixed routes?

Whereas here we have a group joining the MSL with a random route selection given to enable them to bid fairly using their relative BMI seniority within the MSL structure, guaranteed commands in line with previous command aspirations and access to an enviable LH structure.

ALL new joiners, FPP, DEP and BMI are joining on PP35. That has been an accepted part of the evolving retirement age increase. No change to pensionable pay structure or total pay at the top pay structure. It will, however, take a little longer to get there to prevent the current 20 years at PP24 for the lucky few.

IAG could have told BA that they were setting up BA Express. They could have cancelled the BMI AOC and instigated a new one with 'Click Air/Vueling' Terms and Conditions. That would have been a shocker for the BMI crew, pilots and CC alike. They didn't. The LCC model is difficult, if not impossible, to run from LHR. In the future the actions taken will protect the majority of slots and aircraft and make it more difficult for IAG to instigate a startup. Not only that SH productivity is increasing and is likely to hit the targets disctated by IAG for 2015. If IAG wants to be so divergent why did it even contemplate givin 'BMI/BA Express' to BA?

BMI baby has been discussed before, there was no 'Golden Ticket' for Zoom, Excel etc. etc. etc. BMI Baby was not purchased, it was attached as a liability. Two different things when it comes to TUPE and employment protection. Look up your law,Count, something you seem to be quite lazy about.

Unfortunately hundreds of them were distracted when they volunteered to serve drinks

Same old, same old. Hundreds? Not really, certainly far, far less than the members from Unite that volunteered to protect their employer from a suicidal bunch of Union leaders who couldn't see the wood from the trees.

IAG are determined to start a low cost short haul operation that will harmonise with Iberia Express. Any hopes by BALPA members that a line has been drawn under the BMI integration are very much mistaken.


We are all amazed at your ability to see into the future and pick out your personal, zealous 'champagne shulucking' pilots doom, future'. IAG doesn't need an operation to 'harmonize' with Iberia Express. Perhaps if you took a look at the Arbitration report from Spain and saw the T's & C's that Iberia enjoy you might understand that the levelling for the 'harmonisation' would see an increase of relative conditions at LHR. Nice try, look for another hook.

Legacy fleet are losing routes hand of fist with stagnating movement with respect to Purser and CSD thanks to the actions of a certain Union. Their future has been thrown onto the rubbish heap thanks to the blind ability of their representatives to see what the inception of a new unrepresented entity within their ranks would do. You crowed it a 'victory' and how hollow it turned out to be. The reports are that they majority within both BA and BMI are content with the proposed merger structure. There is always an unconvinced minority who, on both sides, think they deserve more, that's just life. The BMI CC are represented by their own version of BASSA, Lord help them, and, as such, their future is up to them.

Well the credibility of BALPA will be dealt a blow when many members resign over the BMI integration, after having received their Average Holiday Pay settlement.

BALPA said that BA pilots would not be "disadvantaged" by the BMI takeover. The truth is that the 15 commands are going to BMI F/O's on the 767 fleet, five commands a year.

Also BMI had a disproportionate number of Training Captains and had pushed through a lot of commands when they got whiff of a BA takeover.

No wonder so many BA F/O's are incensed by BALPA's duplicity.

-For clarification..........

BALPA said that BA pilots would not be "disadvantaged" by the BMI takeover. The truth is that the 15 commands are going to BMI F/O's on the 767 fleet, five commands a year.
Pay attention Count; the above statement is :mad:. The commands will be going to the most senior bmi CAPTS should they bid for it.

Except of course that the long haul commands will be going to bmi captains, not FOs, and may, or may not, be on the 767. And bmi haven't promoted a significant number of FOs to command in years. But apart from that you're nearly right Count!

As a turbo prop pilot on £27,000 a year, and with my career in Europe stifled due to a combination of the economic situation and (moreso) the fetish of employing paying rather than paid employees, I sympathise with those who see promotion prospects moving further into the future. I remain starkly jealous however, of what I understand to be your present larger salary and better terms and conditions.

It would be nice if certain people did not stick their nose in to cause trouble when they really have no idea. There are two sides to every story Count and at best you have little information of one side. BA and bmi pilots will work together in a productive and professional manner no matter how you try to drive the wedge between us. Nothings ever perfect on either side but a reasonable proposition has been reached. What has WW got planned for tomorrow? Who knows, I don't even think he does

Count only rolls in what he believes are 'point grenades' with no basis in either fact or theory.

15 Commands to LH on the most Junior fleet over the next three years to cover the loss of the BMI A330's and the fact that BMI bring 7 WW club equipped A321's with them which could cover current 'LH' shorter routes. Who said anything about fleet specifics? It just so happens that the 767 is the 'junior' fleet at the moment.

Why do you think people will resign over this Count? 15 LH Commands? Who really cares? The time frame from RHS Airbus to LHS LH will reduce thanks to the expansion of the LH fleet which was slot and hull starved at LHR. Now we have a few more hulls being free'd up and some more slots which will lead, as stated by the CEO, to expansion.

After that the agreed ratio of BA/BMI command positions is 100/1. Hardly onerous.

Also BMI had a disproportionate number of Training Captains and had pushed through a lot of commands when they got whiff of a BA takeover.


No point in asking for proof is there? You don't have any as this didn't happen. BMI had a route structure that allowed Captains to occupy both the LHS and the RHS hence, in comparison to BA they were Captain 'top heavy'. It won't make any difference as, within the initial merger, the BMI crews will bid within their own trip line according to their relative MSL seniority. Overall effect? No change.

Please, Count, try a few more, it's obviously a slow day at Uni.

Whilst the count is not 100% correct in what he says, I do believe there will be a number of resignations once the holiday pay entitlement is in the bank. I made my decision during the work coverage agreement changes. There are several general strategies which I have tended to disagree with for years now, this current agreement is simply the latest one. The majority seem happy with the direction the union is taking, so I'll never be able to change the way things are done. However, I don't see why I should pay for a service I disagree with.

I joined the union mainly as professional insurance. That was the premise upon which it was 'sold' to me. However, that insurance failed to protect a good friend of mine a few years back. Again, there is no point in paying for insurance that isn't really there when you need it.

I do however believe in paying for benefits, so I'll continue to pay the union until the holiday pay case is concluded.

Ironically GS-Alpha, I'm in total agreement with you. For exactly the point you make over the treatment of one of our LH colleagues.

If you screw up, you will not be represented, if you don't screw up, you don't need representation.

Odd eh?

I do however believe in paying for benefits, so I'll continue to pay the union until the holiday pay case is concluded.

I take your point but what about the benefits BALPA will negotiate on our behalf in the future? Are you happy for the rest of the membership who keep on stumping up every month to pay for those on your behalf? Or is it a case of joining when there is jam on the table - genuine question by the way, these conversations are easier to conduct on such a forum, as on the flight deck/at the bar they are often avoided on CRM grounds!

At the risk of turning this into a hamster wheel type debate, my previous airline was littered with pilots who looked at what balpa was doing for them as individuals rather than what it was doing for us as a collective. They seemed indifferent to a union-less scenario where our management would impose changes rather than negotiate, and as a result union representation was far too weak and direction-less to make any real difference. BA remains the benchmark for pilot T&Cs in the UK because of the levels of membership within the ranks, not in spite of it, yet I hear the same arguments for membership resignation every time an important decision is made that individuals don't agree with. I understand that paying for union subscription when you are at odds with the direction being taken by its reps/membership is galling, but do those who sit outside the union really think we would be better off without collective representation? Have BA BALPA really got it that wrong?

From the above the following seems apparent following the IAG purchase of BMI:
15 BA First Officers will be losing out on Commands that will be going instead to BMI 'mainline' Pilots.
ALL BMI 'Baby' Pilots will be losing their jobs.

Now let's look at that more closely.

Losing out on a Command in BA now is only a temporary measure. There will be Commands available in the future. As BA is a very large employer, those Commands will become available a lot quicker than they would elsewhere in the industry, so this will only be a slight delay in career progression for those senior BA F/Os.

Losing a job at 'Baby' is permanent. Those Pilots will be out of work with no Command career prospects, even for those who were already Captains. With the present state of the industry they have very, very uncertain futures facing them. (The agreement that has put BMI 'mainline' Pilots in a position that is 'giving' them those BA Commands has ensured that they don't face the same bleak future that the 'Baby' Pilots do.) If they get employment in airlines that have rigid 'seniority list' arrangements, their most experienced Captains will most likely have to wait it out as F/Os until much less experienced Pilots already in the airline have had their opportunities to take up Commands. (Imagine that in other industries: "Yes, I know that you were one of the top nuclear design engineers in that company that went bust, but here you'll have to take your turn behind those newly employed graduates"...!!)

For "Count" to make a big fuss about the temporary loss of a Command opportunity in one of the most secure employers in the industry shows a level of mean selfishness that gives 'Nigels' a bad name in the rest of the industry. I hope that his colleagues are giving him and his likes a figurative 'doing over behind the bike shed' for helping to give them a collective bad name.

Oh don't call the Count a pilot. That would really offend him!!

Are you happy for the rest of the membership who keep on stumping up every month to pay for those on your behalf?
This thread is not really about union membership, nor is it about BMI Baby pilots. However since you ask, I am really unhappy about the representation of one of my mates when he really needed the correct advice and representation from BALPA. It is the company who sacked him when he was innocent, but it was the union who gave him daft advice. Coupling this with a BALPA direction which I believe is actually ruining my terms and conditions, then no I am not happy for the rest of the membership to be paying on my behalf. The whole point is that I do not like the fundamental direction of the union, and overall, I do not want to be represented by it - paid for by myself or anybody else. I have remained in the union about 8 years longer than I should have done. I stayed because of the arguments that you are selfish to take what the union negotiate when others are paying for it. But enough is enough.

Since the Count brought this up, let's just pop in a word about the cabin crew dispute. I disagreed with a huge amount that the cabin crew were doing, but our union was wrong in the way it handled the matter of volunteer cabin crew. It should have explained that like me, it disagreed with what the cabin crew were doing, but that whilst it could not stop pilots from volunteering in the cabin, it did not think that we should be doing so. I came to my decision by asking myself whether I would be happy if someone came in and did my job for me whilst I was trying to send the company a message. As I say, I disagreed with the cabin crews' actions, but it was obvious the company was going to win - they didn't need our help. in the end, a minority of pilots volunteered, but pretty much all 'legacy' cabin crew assume that every pilot they meet was a volunteer. That in itself was one huge colossal mistake made by our union - again, bad advice! That one thing has done more to ruin my time at work, than pretty much everything the company have suggested doing over the last decade.

It would appear that 15 co pilots lose out on commands in the near future, but amalgamating BMI into BA is bringing opportunities for all. The BMI chaps are voting on whether they should voluntarily give up some of the commands that they are entitled to under TUPE in order to share in a bit of the growth and benefit from being part of the BA MSL.

Personally, being on the MSL is more important than a lot of other things IMHO. Bidline also works better the more people are on it as it affords more choice. Some people seem to be getting bogged down in the detail and the Count is trying, once again to drive a wedge in.

This was always going to be a complex deal and we'll soon find out the result. If, it goes ahead then I think it will be a good deal all round. The Midland guys get something, but certainly not a lottery win, and I really don't think that a BA pilot will be disadvantaged. Even if a Midland chap gets a long or short, haul command before a BA guy I think it's important to remember what they brought with them and to play fair. I've only read some of the BA comments, but it would be wrong to try and hoodwink them on their way in the door and we still need them to vote themselves out of "the bubble", and for that they need a bone fide incentive.

What I've always wanted out of this is to maintain my lifestyle, still have the same if not better career aspirations and not to have to do any more reserve than I have to do at present. I certainly never wanted to better my lot by screwing over someone else.

As for the Baby folks, what can I say? My best wishes for you and your families. It would seem that this deal has been completely unfair for you guys and every one of the powers that be seems to be in a huge rush to avoid any responsibility, when I suspect the truth is that they should all take some of the blame. Good luck for the future.

As for the vote, hopefully when the dust settles even the most ardent detractor will secretly admit to themselves that they are, in fact better off.

Once again everyone, welcome aboard

Lets just put this in perspective eh?

BMI are bringing three long haul hulls into the collective (330), yes those hulls will be disposed of BUT replaced with new order frames (777, 380 etc) the 15 longhaul commands ARE LESS THAN THE BMI PILOTS HAVE ALREADY!(longhaul 7.5 crews per hull) all the BMI CC has done is secure the most senior captains their current positions should they bid! NO BA PILOT IS LOSING OUT!

Nice to hear a comment from a BA captain recently that he wished BALPA was "a bit more like BASSA".

The problem for BA flight crew that under the guidance of BALPA, they are dying a death by a thousand cuts. The creed of feeding the crocodile in the hope it will eat you last, has been exploited by Willie best demonstrated by him cheekily and opportunistically, taking two days leave off of you and shafting future average holiday pay supplements.

Although the many critics here love to pan BASSA, it was actually a brilliant result. Remember the "fight for survival" was caused by an artificially created record loss following a record profit the year before. Willie and Keith Williams were running BA similar to the Greek economy and the pilots fell for it. Like OpenSkies and the future BA Express, there was nothing that BASSA could do if BA wished to start a new cabin crew contract and fleet. That has happened and the damage to the brand is ongoing as the new recruits "bed in". Please excuse that expression in light of the number of "little Nigels and Nigellas", created through steamy liasons with a number of these allegedly rampant nubile lovelies.

Since the treacherous actions of BA pilots towards their cabin crew colleagues, things don't seem to be going too well. In particular the reverses in pay and conditions to satisfy the crocodile, as BALPA acts in an all too malleable fashion.

Legacy cabin crew are more than happy with their outcome even if promotion opportunities have dried up. Many Pursers have actually volunteered to work down, so are really not too bothered about career progression. At least the Legacy crew have not emulated the mistakes of the clever pilots, by going over to an hourly rate. The weakness of the Pound has decimated the buying power of the UK currency over the aslt four years, whereas the cabin crew benefit from local inflation, and currencies that have surged in strength like the Australian Dollar and the Brazilian Real.

So chaps you need to worry about your own patch, rather than volunteering to serve drinks and screwing your colleagues.

bluepilot:
BMI are bringing three long haul hulls into the collective (330)

Are you sure???

Are you really suggesting that BASSA have done well for their members over the last few years Count? If you insist on that sort of la la land logic no-one will listen to any of your arguments an anything as you show a complete disregard for the facts.

BASSA had the opportunity to prevent the creation on MF - but they didn't due to the leadership's (sorry if this strikes a little close to home) sheer bloody mindedness and stupidity.

What rankles the Legacy Fleets most about the little nigels and nigellas I wonder? Perhaps it is proof that the insane, mindless and cultural hatred that CC have at BA has not been inculcated into MF and that MF crew do not hate pilots for no reason. Whatever the reason - when men and women meet, things like this happen, office romances are hardly new, it is only human nature and behaviour.

Legacy cabin crew are more than happy with their outcome even if promotion opportunities have dried up

This is absolute BS, they are worried sick about the future, they have no promotion prospects, MF is growing and the routes are drifting towards them. BASSA are feeding this fear with their missives about the Redeployment Agreement. Why do BASSA need their minions to be in fear? is it because despite the insanity of the last few years they are still bristling for a fight, desperate to try to regain lost ground. Fear creates militancy and extreme views - this is plain to see in the politics of Europe at the moment (and the politics of the 20's and 30's in Europe). BASSA hope to exploit this as they still have not realised that they lost the last dispute and it was an act of kindness that BA did not impose a settlement to end it all. Perhaps that was an error.

Count, once again a lesson in 'ludicrous cherry picking'. Thank you.

A little thread creep if I may, I will come back at the bottom.

taking two days leave off of you and shafting future average holiday pay supplements.


Shafting? Not really it was an agreed move by the majority Pilot group. We were balloted for our views and response then action was taken. You do remember balloting don't you? Where you ask the member majority and then act on the results???? Of course not, BASSA made all the decisions in the previous dispute didn't they.

it was actually a brilliant result

???????????????

In what world was it a 'brilliant result'? The entire dispute was about reducing the crewing levels by one and employing the CSD in the premium cabins. Guess what! We are still operating one down with the CSD ona trolley. All the other niff-naff around was BASSA toys out of the cot and then being given back when their temper tantrums had calmed down. The fact that BASSA blindly discounted the inception of MF whilst concentrating on getting their 'bruvvas' re-instated was the biggest crime of all for their 'Legacy' fleet members.

The cost savings to BA with the growth of MF are growing exponentially year on year. Thanks to BASSA.

Remember the "fight for survival" was caused by an artificially created record loss following a record profit the year before.

You refused to look at the forecasts, the figures and the analysis of an independant, third party economic powerhouse and still you believe your own rhetoric?

Since the treacherous actions of BA pilots towards their cabin crew colleagues

Also the treacherous actions of the ground staff, loaders, checkin staff, baggage handlers, engineers, back office staff, Waterside staff, call centre staff, IT staff, HR staff etc. etc. etc. But, as we all do the same job in our little metal tube :ugh:, pilots are, as always, the only ones who 'tipped the balance'.

Legacy cabin crew are more than happy with their outcome even if promotion opportunities have dried up

This is quite sad to read, the last clutches of the drowning man at any straw available. Legacy fleet are fuming at every new route opportunity that passes over to MF. The abject inability of BASSA to recognise the frustration within it's members is startling to say the least. BASSA delivered cost savings to BA well above and beyond that required by not negotiating MF.

At least the Legacy crew have not emulated the mistakes of the clever pilots, by going over to an hourly rate.

By the law of diminishing returns they don't need to. Enjoy it while you can, all the lucrative LH routes and the future fleet acquisitions are headed to MF anyway.

So chaps you need to worry about your own patch

We are thank you.

Back to the thread:

BMI are bringing three long haul hulls into the collective (330),

Unfortunately not for long. Those hulls are due for lease expiration in October. What they are bringing are 7 Club bed fitted MH A321's which can be used on routes such as Cairo and Tel Aviv, which are currently served by the 777. This will free up some 777 rotations to be used on other routes where slot/route duplication with BMI exists. Expansion of the LH route means expansion of crewing opportunities.

Bidline for the BMI pilots is something they will have to use to see the benefits for themselves. The system of random trip scraping to allow relative BMI seniority bidding at the bottom of the MSL is emenantly fair IMHO. The biggest factor this brings to the table is lifestyle. If a BMI pilot wishes to move outside of the Airbus onto the other fleets then they will take their place at the bottom of the bidding list. The choice become theirs.

The 15 LH commands over 3 years will be offset by increased capacity on the LH route structure. If giving away 15 LH commands is required to generate LH expansion requiring 45 new commands then they bias is in favour of the BA pilots anyway. The agreement effectively guarantees BMI pilots 1 command in 100. There will be, at the start, a few who gain advantage over some of the junior FO's but it will only be in the short term as the BMI pilots will not be type frozen but the BA DEP's will.

On complettion of freeze the BA DEP can move across to their fleet of choice knowing that they will be a higher bid seniority.

Looking at snapshots is, generally, misinformative. Always look at the bigger picture to gain a better oversight.

GS-Alpha, thanks for your reply.

I salute the patience of Wirbelsturm and others in their replys to count niemantzar but we are dealing with a deluded BASSA militant who lost their grip on reality a long time ago, I can't help but feel your attempts at logic and arguments based on fact will be wasted on him!

it was actually a brilliant result

A career in politics awaits.....

BMRR,

It's fun. Sadly 'Count', as he likes to call himself, probably wants to enjoy his enforced free time thinking he, along with the others on the Council, led his 'Bruvva's and Sista's' to an emphatic victory, whilst the world sees the action as leaving BASSA a powerless shell and all the members sold down the river. Mistakes that leave him somewhat powerless to give advice in any situation.

Aren't viewpoint and perspective amazing things!

:}

Regarding BA's 'record loss', the BBC's Business Editor had this to say about it:

"So it's difficult to avoid the impression that at least part of BA's agony, its descent in just 12 months from record profits to record losses, was of its own making"

BBC - Peston's Picks: BA: Loaded down (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2009/05/ba_loaded_down.html)

BA had a record profit of over £900m in 2007 - 08 and in June that year oil peaked at U$154 a barrel. Walsh and co did not keep any money over for a rainy day, but chose to show the full profit in order to trigger the 10% Operating Profit bonuses.

You guys fell for it and were marshalled into volunteering to serve drinks by one rep in particular, whose libel action by the way, failed.

I have to correct a misnomer here. BASSA offered to reduce the crew complement by one, with the CSD taking the role of Premium Purser. It would not have been possible to merge new contract staff as efficiently with Legacy. For instance on some destinations Legacy get a double night, where MF only get one. Also BA wanted to start a new culture in BA unpolluted by Legacy crew. The fact they wear hats is an indication of this aspiration.

Walsh was out to smash not just BASSA, but all unions in BA. That is why the BA/BASSA dispute was historic and Professor Keith Ewing wrote a book about it. I doubt he would waste anytime writing about BALPA's failed attempt to halt OpenSkies.

Legacy Fleet has actually grown with the assimilation of BMI cabin crew, very few of whom took the £10,000 bribe to go to and join Mixed Fleet. Those BMI crew will be able to transfer into WW in the near future. I think that is called 'growth'.

Unlike BA's pilots who seem to enjoy giving their cash and conditions away, Legacy Crew have a future minimum pay guarantee.

MF are being swopped around various routes bascially just to confuse the customers. They have LAX for the moment, but like SAN and PHX, Legacy will fly there again. It is unlikely however MF will get ATL back for well documented reasons. BA may have "the CSD's in the cabins", but when the AVOD breaks down as it does virtually every sector, it doesn't get fixed as quickly as before.

Regarding VCC's, many in Waterside did not have a choice. BA's pilots did, and as GS Alpha states, none of you considered the consequences of your actions when the dispute was over. By the way, it wasn't just a few F/O's who volunteered, it was hundreds. Why? Many of you actually made a load of money out of operating as cabin crew. £400 a sector wasn't it?

Heathrow terminal staff who volunteered have threatened to strike, if maxed out hours MF crew are redeployed to check in or other ground duties, where they may lose overtime opportunities. Gatwick ground staff VCC's are seeing their jobs (170 customer service and 400 ramp workers) jobs outsourced. Obviously if they had the spare time to be VCC's, they were overstaffed.

Back on topic, giving 15 commands away on the 767 fleet has not disadvantaged BA F/O's. Can someone explain that to me please, as many F/O's do not understand it either.

What complete and utter bull. That whole post is so full of holes that it doesn't even deserve a reply.
No matter what facts are put to you, you will always pick and choose bits that make it sound like you know what you are on about. Unfortunately you do not have a clue....


Oil price peaking? - Fuel hedged 60% that year (so nonsense)

No Union has been smashed in BA. Although yours has been rendered obsolete.
LAX you will not get back (have a look at the savings)

Legacy has grown due TUPE options for BMI but you will certainly not get ANY growth organically. All recruitment will be in MF. So no promotion opportunities till kingdom come for many very able crew on Legacy.
Well done BASSA.....

Payment to work - £400? Well you are losing a normal flying trip so offsets the money that you are losing by not flying as a pilot (just). Although there are many stories about guys being stood down at report for duty as crew as FAR more Crew turned up during the strike.
In fact I did quite a few flights with a full compliment of Legacy crew during the whole strike period.

No the 15 commands (can't be arsed going through the ACTUAL construction of this) doesn't disadvantage guys seeking promotion. Because on balance there shall be more commands available for everyone. It's called a compromise agreement with everyone benefitting (just not 100% benefit).
Altruistic? Maybe. One Union? Definitely....

Back on topic, giving 15 commands away on the 767 fleet has not disadvantaged BA F/O's. Can someone explain that to me please, as many F/O's do not understand it either.


Well, Count, one would not expect you to understand it. You are unlikely to have the capacity to do so. Your deluded handling of previous industrial issues leaves you in a very poor position on anything to do with them in the 21st century.

On the other hand, the ballot result will probably demonstrate how many BA F/O's feel about it, probably far more accurately than your ignorant musings. They will be aware that the deal brings with it more than 5 command opportunities a year and is, therefore, a win/win.

Remind us how long 5 minutes is.

BA had a record profit of over £900m in 2007 - 08 and in June that year oil peaked at U$154 a barrel.

Whilst the fuel hedging department was using pre-hedged fuel at approx $70USD a barrel for fiscal year 2007-8. The effects of the 154USD per barrel were to be felt the following year as hedging costs were pushed sky high by speculators. Perhaps if you had bothered to take part in the financial analysis you would have understood that.

BASSA offered to reduce the crew complement by one, with the CSD taking the role of Premium Purser

No you didn't. You argued, squirmed and cajoled to the point where two Union reps had a fist fight in the car park. You failed to meet any negotiating deadline, thinking big bad BASSA was too above making deadlines (sound familiar Count?) and then threw your toys out of the cot when BA imposed the change.

Legacy Fleet has actually grown with the assimilation of BMI cabin crew

Most likely due to the age demographic and an unwillingness to work too long. They can enjoy the dwindling routes and make more money. Who wouldn't vote for that?

Legacy Crew have a future minimum pay guarantee.


But with a hard won BASSA dwindling future. Not real figures but £20000 per annum for 10 years is better than £30000 per annum for 3!

but when the AVOD breaks down as it does virtually every sector, it doesn't get fixed as quickly as before.


AVOD hasn't broken down for many many many trips on the 777 that I've flown. Also, during the court cases for the 'excessive work' caused by the removal of 1 crew member AVOD was continually used as an excuse for the CSD not to take part in the service. That excuse went out of the window when BA produced the computer records of just how little the AVOD actually fails.

Can't be bothered with the rest as there is too much thread creep already.

giving 15 commands away on the 767 fleet has not disadvantaged BA F/O's. Can someone explain that to me please, as many F/O's do not understand it either.

There have been a couple of people who have questioned 767 course cancellation but these have been cancelled prior to any decision being made as a normal Cassandra run. Certainly nothing unusual there. Also there have been questions about transfers from those in the BA system who are frozen who feel they would be disadvantaged. However it has been pointed out that if unfrozen pilots from BMI moved across before them when they are unfrozen they will join ahead in terms of seniority and therefore route choice.

Initial type freeze has always been carried by BA. If ZFT qualified DEP's arrive on the 744 or 777 then are the guys on the Airbus 'disadvantaged' by type freeze? Not really. We are just seeing quite a few ZFT qualified DEP's joining in a bunch.

Overall, no one gets disadvantaged.

Any more rubbish to spout Count?

Just to round out 'Count's' own link:


From Robert Pestons blog:

What is clear is that the quantum of BA's debt and the value of its net assets are moving in opposite directions at a worryingly fast rate.
Net borrowings rose by more than £1bn last year, to £2.4bn, dwarfing shareholders' equity of £1.6bn (which fell by an alarming 46%).

and:

engineering and "other" aircraft costs increased by £59m or 13.1%; landing fees were 14.2% or £75m higher. Even staff costs rose a bit.

and:

Also it's cutting costs: staff are being offered the option of temporary or permanent part-time working and unpaid leave; the company is negotiating "productivity changes" with trade unions

We all know where the CC 'productivity changes' came from don't we?

So, can we leave that version of the past in the past and continue discussing the thread now?

Er, shouldn't the "Count" be counting those branch funds for which there is less than zero clarity, and no transparency whatsoever. A bit of accounting is required, rather than trying to wind up the very few BA pilots that read these pages.

When they come to give awards for Financial probity, I suggest that balpa will come above bassa.

And awards for success? MF was a brilliant creation by bassa. Saved BA a fortune!!

massiveheed,

I'm not calling him anything, it's self pro claimed! Perhaps a wannabe with a chip on his/her shoulder?

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/452263-new-eruption-starting-iceland-merged-8.html#post6470797

"Count",

Is you real name 'Arthur Strong'? Your gibberings are about as coherent!! (Look him up!)

'Legacy' fleet/airline? You couldn't get more 'dinosaur' than that!! You are the dodos of the airline industry!! You are so horribly behind-the-times. Just get up-to-date with the real world and catch up with what's really going on (and when I say that I suspect that I am quite a bit older than you!!).

And do us all a favour and keep that nasty selfishness of yours to yourself. There are a lot of Pilots out here who are concerned about the futures of others who are falling on hard time and don't have that nasty, selfish, old-fashioned attitude that you do.

And if you really are a pilot (which the Icelandic link appears to show that you are), just remember that you are only a high-tech bus (or is it 'coach')-driver. Thinking of that, are you also going to be going on strike for that 'Olympics' supplement that the Tube-drivers are apparently getting?

You give Nigels a bad name! (Nigels, I hope that you are giving that 'duffing up' behind the scenes for the crap name he is giving all of you!)

Trossie, the only place the count is a pilot is in his own tiny mind.

giving 15 commands away on the 767 fleet has not disadvantaged BA F/O's. Can someone explain that to me please, as many F/O's do not understand it either.

There have been a couple of people who have questioned 767 course cancellation but these have been cancelled prior to any decision being made as a normal Cassandra run. Certainly nothing unusual there.

The 767 is a "dying" fleet and will most likely be gone in four years or so. At some point in the near future, this will be officially declared at which point those pilots who are on it will be forced to stay on it until it retires, with the route structure moving from longhaul to shorthaul. As the longhaul hulls are reduced and shorthaul hulls retained, the basic pay will reduce steadily towards shorthaul pay.

Horses for courses, I suppose but I'm not sure I'd want to move to that fleet myself. :oh:

For goodness sake guys don't stop this clown posting! It might cause me a bit of a hernia from laughing though! What are we going to do for entertainment when these dinosaurs finally shuffle off?

Whatever,

It's a yes vote from both sides with over 80% in favour.

Welcome. :ok:

Yes, a good result. I hope the ex-BMI guys will now enjoy life in BA. And best wishes for a good outcome for all the pilots and crew at Baby.

Without the spin, only 47% of BA BALPA members voted yes, the rest voted no or took the coward's option by abstaining.

BA management will be delighted to know that we can still be shafted a bit more before we finally stand up for ourselves.

Without the spin, only 47% of BA BALPA members voted yes, the rest voted no or took the coward's option by abstaining.


I agree, however the 'apathy' abstain vote is always a vote for the winning side, whatever that may be.

Personally I think it's a good decision for the long term.

All IMHO of course. :}

Fifteen 767 commands for ex BMI Captains on a dying fleet with degenerating income.

Sounds like a good deal for BA flight crew who can jump ship early for the 787 or A380.

... it looks like BA pilots have been stitched up.

Sounds like a good deal for BA flight crew...

Which is it, Count? A good deal or a bad deal?

So far you seem to think it's both. ;)

I think there was a rush to judgement over the 15 commands and some BA F/O's were behaving like a 'spooked herd', worrying that this may impact on their own promotion prospects. :{

Now the scenario has evolved where low seniority 767 pilots can parachute off of the 767 as they are backfilled by BMI flight crew.

If more BA F/O's understood this, there wouldn't be so much talk about resigning from BALPA after the holiday cash payout.

The back 'holiday pay' will be paid to all qualifying BA personnel regardless of union membership, so if resignation was being considered not a reason to remain in BALPA.

I'm also curious to know where all these threats of union resignation are originating.

Perhaps in a land far far away.................

Having been out of work following three airline failures in four years it is so encouraging to see those with a firm grip of the realitys of the airline industry squabbling over things that might not be here tomorrow.

I've read through this thread, but a question hasn't been answered. It might help other observers to have a clear answer to that question.

Question: When the BA and bmi pilot workforces were merged, did the bmi pilots all go to the bottom of the combined seniority list?

.

Val d'Isere

Yes

Its complex, yes and no but also to be continued. Unless you have the compromise agreement in front of you, the BA cc and mystic meg then its all speculation. Big picture is everyone is flying together and enjoying being part of a strengthened team.... out

It's not complex.

bmi are at the bottom of the seniority list.

Always good to see BA are advertising their Future Pilot Programme on facebook just after winding up bmibaby and dissolving the holdpool!

SMD45

However, in a year, there is the possibility that bmi Captains may be integrated based on their percentile position on the bmi seniority list for roster bidding rights.

It is Complex. :rolleyes:

Yes, but the BMI captains kept their commands and the 330 captains have access to LH commands.

Always good to see BA are advertising their Future Pilot Programme on facebook just after winding up bmibaby and dissolving the holdpool!

The clue is in the name of the programme! :ugh:

Wirbelsturm you are generally quite well informed, reading your comment above you recon FPP is the sole source of BA pilots in the years to come, or was your comment referring to 2013?

Jumbo2:
it's wrt our FUTURE recruitment. It won't be the sole way of recruiting of course! However they are looking to start the FPP (I believe) from 2014 onwards.

In this economic climate just to kep a job is a bonus, there are pilots in the UK airline industry who have lost their jobs three or four times in the last three years.

While I don't say that the pilots with BA should just roll over and give in to the management I do think that a few above should stop the petty bickering and wake up to the fact that they are in a very secure employment with T's & C'c far better than most in the industry.

The timescale for the throughput of the FPP is long. At least a couple of years. Add onto that the failure factor and you have a system that 'might' or 'might not' return a usable 'ab-initio' product in a few years. Thus the 'lead in' needs to be long.

BA will always 'spread bet' against age, experience and return. Thus DEP will always be available, however, DEP's can be fed through to the line in a couple of months therefore the 'lead in' for DEP recruitment is justifiably shorter and more volotile. Think, reactive, not pro-active.

There will be more DEP but when and how many are variables that can be discussed at very short notice.

:ok:

Great post by A and C. Join the real world and stop griping

A & C Spot on! Final salary £130,000pa. Cushy T&C's. 5* hotels. Final salary scheme giving a pension of AT LEAST £80,000pa. Smell the coffee guys!
Big change very soon!!!

BIGBAD

:= := := , It's "you're", not "your".....

WW is revealing yet again how how selective with the truth he (she?) is, when he claims: "Final salary scheme giving a pension of AT LEAST £80,000pa.".

WW: I suspect you are referring those in the old APS (Airways Pension Scheme). If you are then you know darn well that the "AP'sters" are a vanishing breed and that the vast, vast majority of current BA employees, including the vast majority of pilots, aren't in a comparable scheme. FWIW I'm in one of the older BA final salary schemes, yes I will leave on pay point "a lot", but won't see anything like the sum you've dreamt up - and that's not a grumble, just an observation.

5* hotels. Not sure a 5* means much these days, I reckon genuine 5* is pretty rare, but whatever the rating remember we do stay in the same hotels as our (and possibly your former) cabin crew colleagues, so using your logic it's not just the pilots that need to "smell the coffee".


A and C: Apologies, I digress, all that aside your's was a good point, well made.

Don't bother with WW. For an accurate view of just how much rubbish, half truths and lies he/she spouts have a look at this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/496924-hypocritical.html

Where WW claims to be management, in Waterside, attending meetings etc. to peddle his nebulous, ill thought out, derisive rubbish only to be found out for the real fool he is.

The above post, once again, reveals his inability to grasp facts.

Perhaps working for Len McKlusky in Unite is the best place for him, as neither of them have a particularly accurate grasp on reality.

Back to the thread.

Wiggy,

Your's(?!!!) was a point well made? Stop throwing stones, the glass will smash.

That is all. ;)

BIGBAD, what an intelligent individual you are. Hit a raw nerve have we?
Now let's have a look at BA Pilot pay:
British Airways pilot jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways)
So as we can see FO's top line £113,000 + £12 per hour FP.
Captains top line (last updated 2008) £144,000 + £12 per hour FP.
Plus what other LCC's don't get....final salary pension scheme, retiring on 2/3 of your final salary. Very nice!

"I think pilots in the UK are generally paid what they should be paid with respect to the job they do."

Sorry which UK are you living in?, obviously not the same one I am old chap!!

Plus what other LCC's don't get....final salary pension scheme, retiring on 2/3 of your final salary. Very nice!

Seem to remember that ALOT of the Cabin Crew retired on NAPS/APS with a similar payout. They moaned that pilots got more but that was because pilots paid alot more in!

Anyhoo, no final salary pension scheme at BA anymore, only money purchase.

Anymore out of date quips?

Oh, and Air France, Lufthansa, Singapore, LKM, Iberia all have paysacales off the graph in comparison to BA. So, before comparing apples with pears (LCC vs Worldwide) please get your facts straight. Something you never ever seem to have been capable of, even to the point of muddling your own education and vocation up!

So as we can see FO's top line £113,000 + £12 per hour FP.
Captains top line (last updated 2008) £144,000 + £12 per hour FP.


:D Very good cut and paste job wonker, but 0/10 for demonstrating any understanding.


You still seem to be claiming/implying/spinning that BA pilots get:

Final salary scheme giving a pension of AT LEAST £80,000pa.

So do tell us:

1. What percentage of those "top line" figures is used to calculate
a NAPS pension?

2. Given that not everybody makes "top line" as you call it how do you get "AT LEAST £80,000".

3. And how can your comment be true when the Final Salary scheme has been closed to new joiners, even pilots :p for several years.

FWIW I'll be retiring from BA in a few years on "top line" captain's pay on a Final Salary scheme pension that will be significantly less than the 80K you seem to insist pilots get.

If you carry on like this you'll start making yourself look like a bit of a "chump".

FWIW I'll be retiring from BA in a few years on "top line" captain's pay on a Final Salary scheme pension that will be significantly less than the 80K you seem to insist pilots get.

Wiggy,

I don't know you personally or otherwise, just through your posts, but can I just say this? I think that it will be a loss for the company to lose, eventually, people like you.

I like your posts and attitude, that's all and I think you're great at what you do. That's not common in the upper echelons of seniority ranks in any company :)

As for the latest rant about BA pay n'all, as I said in the other topic, ignore the noise. I've had the chance to talk with a few of you BA lads many times and I think you deserve every penny. Great work.

Thanks for the kind thoughts Mike, you've made me go all :\ :\