"Bomber Command" ITV1 Programme

[XV490]

9pm tonight on ITV: another programme about Bomber Command, this one narrated by John Sergeant (by the way, does anyone know anything about his time in the Service?)

[Ray Dahvectac]

Not really but I think he was a Sergeant. :E

[pulse1]

He "learned to fly, first on gliders and then powered planes, the latter through an RAF scholarship." This was when he was at school and he learned at Thruxton. He was never in the RAF.

I've just read his book "Give Me Ten Seconds".

[Milo Minderbinder]

"The Queen recently unveiled a memorial to honour the 55,573 men of Bomber Command who lost their lives in the Second World War. John Sergeant narrates this documentary which marks the historic moment and recounts the moving stories of the last of Bomber Command's survivors. "

[endplay]

Thanks for the heads up. Recording set in train.

[helo425]

Starting now everyone.

[MightyGem]

Just watched it. As always when watching anything like that, I feel incredibly humbled at what they did. 81 missions!

A question though. They showed a clip of the Memorial ceremony and put the BBMF Lancaster dropping the poppies as the last post played. Now, we know that they dropped during the service, but I always felt that the Last Post would have been a more appropriate point for the release.

Dare I ask if the drop time was off for some reason?

[Pure Pursuit]

"Sqn Ldr Bill Lucas, DFC, pilot, 81 operations."

My jaw hit the flaw and my eyes went rather fuzzy...

I raise my glass to all of you. Astonishing programme.

[Take That]

At long last, a programme that puts the bomber offensive into a historical and political context, that permitted the crews to relate their experiences, that acknowledged that it was not just the Lancaster that fought the bomber war, and with minimal, but thoughtful commentary. Impossible to condense 1939 - 1945 into one hour, but a good job from ITV. Despite the unveiling of the memorial in London last week, those men must still be awarded their campaign medal. Especially poignant as BBC News now reporting from RAF Lossiemouth.

[Churchills Ghost]

Brilliant!

Only sad that it wasn't a three hour episode (without ads) with more personal testimony and more details relating to the aircraft.

Well done lads you shall (by some of us at least) forever be remembered.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qUPtoyCDLXM/T04WzRoJRsI/AAAAAAAAIJ8/if1OvubQtiY/s136/WC%2520s.png

[fantom]

81. Amazing feat.

What is the record?

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Here ... have another helping of Halifax ...

Halifax Aircraft - YouTube

[Pontius Navigator]

Cheshire did 102 missions plus one.

Gibson completed over 170 operations at the age of 24.

[Savoia]

Gibson completed over 170 operations at the age of 24.

Ahh Gibson .. or the 'Arch Bastard' (as he was known to those in his squadron .. or to those who study history), yes, his achievement was, in a word, spectacular.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/VCGuyPenroseGibson.jpg

Guy Penrose Gibson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Gibson)

[500N]

PN

What do you mean by the "plus one" in by "102 mission plus one" ?

[MAINJAFAD]

I think you will find that the plus one bombing Op that Cheshire was involved in, was over Japan and involved a special weapon (he was one of two British observers on the Nagasaki attack).

[Milo Minderbinder]

Wasn't Cheshire the the UK observer at Nagasaki?
I suspect thats the +1

[Archimedes]

I suspect PN is referring to Cheshire going as the official British observer on the raid on Nagasaki in August 45 as the 'plus one'...

Edit: There appears to be an echo...

[papajuliet]

It's a pity the presenter said May 30th instead of March 30th for the Nuremburg raid - programme credibility went at that point.

[500N]

Thank you - to all 3 of you that replied within 2 minutes of each other !:O

You learn something new every day.


So as he was an observer, would that count to his official mission total
or not, either then or if it occurred again today - ie if someone was
aboard a B52 on an air strike in Iraq ?
I am assuming by the "plus one" it doesn't but thought I would ask anyway.

.

[Chugalug2]

Take That, the WWII Campaign medals were the "Stars": Atlantic, Africa, Pacific, Burma, Italy, 1939/45 (with clasp BoB?), and the two earned by BC crews (inter alia) for before and after D-Day; the Aircrew Europe and the France Germany Stars. Like all campaign medals they were for specified areas of Operations. So any BC veteran will have the appropriate campaign medal already.
I think the confusion lies in the wish of Arthur Harris for a Bomber Campaign Medal issued for all his Command, both Air and Ground Crews alike. That would not have been a British Campaign Medal within the definition of the word, but one struck for service in a specific military formation. No such tradition or practice has ever existed for HM Forces AFAIK, before or since. It was an impossible ask I'm afraid.
The only other possibility was for a Bombing Campaign Star for the aircrew alone. In many respects that is what the Aircrew Europe one is, as it is known "in the trade" as the Bomber Command Star. Those who qualified for the France Germany Star shared it of course with the other Services involved in the advance across Europe into Germany after D-Day, including those in the rear echelons. Perhaps they are the ones who are most aggrieved at not getting an aircrew "BC Star"?

[helo425]

Excellent programme.

[Lima Juliet]

Chug, a fair post, but...

Here is the Clasp for the 1939 - 1945 Star:

http://www.mycollectors.co.uk/StockPhotos/Medals/battle-britain-bar.jpg

...how about something similar for the strategic bombing campaign? Maybe it could "Bomber Command"?

LJ :ok:

[ExAscoteer]

Chug,

My late Father was absolutely incensed that, although the decision changed later, he was not initially entitled to a France and Germany, having been part of Op VARSITY, while remfs in Paris in 1945 were!

As it turned out, the GPR (after some heavy lobbying at quite senior level) did recieve the F&G Star.

[Pontius Navigator]

I put the plus one having read his Wikipedia entry. That one mission was hugely different from the other 102 for many reasons that I will not ennumerate.

[allan125]

I agree entirely with Papajuliet - I thought that I had mis-heard the Nuremburg date until i ran through the recording that I had made.

What a bad slip-up, just goes to show that John Sergeant was only reading the script with no deep knowledge of Bomber Command operations - poor research on behalf of the scriptwriter as well!!

Took the shine off of an otherwise excellent programme - albeit a bit short - 81 operations by Sqn Ldr Bill Lucas DFC, wish we knew more of him, and the other survivors shown on the programme as some of the gunners had quite a high op total.

Allan

[charliegolf]

PP said:

"Sqn Ldr Bill Lucas, DFC, pilot, 81 operations."

My jaw hit the flaw

Whilst the whole thing was humbling, this was the line which 'flawed' me too. The political side makes my blood boil, every time it comes up.

Mrs G came in and asked, "What's this about then?"
I said, "It's about a bunch of really ordinary old blokes, playing down their extraordinary bravery."

I would like to retract the 'ordinary' remark.

CG

[green granite]

It's a pity the presenter said May 30th instead of March 30th for the Nuremburg raid - programme credibility went at that point

Nice to know your perfect PJ. :)

Actually with those historians present I'm surprised it slipped through the net, unless of course it was a deliberate error inserted as a plagiarism detector.

It was way better than anything produced by the BBC recently.

[Tankertrashnav]

I thoroughly enjoyed the programme. I had to miss the last 15 minutes so I don't know if this point was covered, but the ex air gunner called Wiseman was pretty obviously Jewish, and he had become a POW at some stage. What sort of treatment did Jewish POWs receive at the hands of the Germans, or were they given equal status with their non-Jewish fellow prisoners? I have always thought it was incredibly brave for a Jew to volunteer for aircrew, when in addition to the obvious dangers involved in flying on ops, there was the big unknown as to how you were going to be treated if you were taken prisoner.

Speaking as someone whose worst experience during six years of flying was discovering that the in-flight rations had been left behind, I found the programme totally humbling.

[spekesoftly]

I had to miss the last 15 minutes ...... It's repeated this Thursday (5/07/2012) at 22:35 BST on ITV1.

[Chugalug2]

Leon and EA, the problem for BC was that it was overshadowed by the political groundswells of the end of the war. Allies became foes, enemies became friends. BC and Harris were both dropped like a hot potato, even by the RAF High Command! All of that is a comment of course on politicians and those who inhabit the firmament, not on the brave dedicated men and women of Bomber Command.
Even now, as other threads testify, this nation is still begrudging proper acknowledgement of the debt we all owe them. That is a comment on we all, not on them. Whatever amends might be made, I doubt if it can be done by the reissuing now of clasps, medals or stars. For better or worse that has been done, and all (though I take your point re your father's tardy award, EA) who were in a campaign, including the Bombing one, have received their appropriate star.
If a clasp to the 1939/45 star were to have been issued for BC aircrew instead, then I suggest that "Battle of Germany" would have been a more appropriate title, for was that not how Harris so described it?

[Chugalug2]

TTN:
What sort of treatment did Jewish POWs receive at the hands of the Germans, or were they given equal status with their non-Jewish fellow prisoners?
I think that the treatment accorded to BC POWs, Jewish or otherwise, varied right from the moment of capture depending on into whose hands they fell. If it were by a mob or by the Gestapo then they were treated with equal status no matter what their faith, and lynched! Their best hope was to fall into the hands of the Luftwaffe at the earliest opportunity who AFAIK treated them all as equals and afforded them the protection of the Geneva Convention. There is of course a famous story of USAAF crew being removed from a Concentration Camp and the SS by a visiting Luftwaffe officer.

[Avitor]

My Grand Parents lived in Blenheim Road, Ramsey Hunts, adjacent to RAF Upwood. We would hear the Merlins run up - probably on Mag: tests - all day long. Go to the bottom of the road and stand at the airfield perimeter to watch the fueling and arming.
We saw the uniformed crews in and out of the George Hotel in Ramsey.
My home was about 7 miles in a straight line, north of the airfield, I would lie in bed and listen to maximum loaded Lancaster's very low and clawing for height, one every few minutes, the windows rattled, the house shook.
The civilian population knew nothing of the losses, it was 'bad for civilian moral', in effect, half of those chaps climbing over my home never came back...we did not know this. WE KNOW NOW!
Heroes to a man.

[Genstabler]

Excellent programme. Wiseman's views on the Hamburg and Dresden raids were illuminating. He was in a position to understand what we were really fighting for and what the consequences would have been had we lost.

[XV490]

I seem to recall reading that Jewish servicemen were treated the same as anyone else for fear that to do otherwise might alert the Allies to the fate of civilians of the Hebrew faith. W/O Wiseman had, IIRC, escaped Germany or Austria and might have fared worse (as an obvious German speaker) than someone like Robert Stanford Tuck - who, despite being Jewish, probably struck the Germans in his POW camps as being about as 'British' as you could get.

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the heads up about the repeat, Spekesoftly :ok:

[Churchills Ghost]

There is of course a famous story of USAAF crew being removed from a Concentration Camp and the SS by a visiting Luftwaffe officer.
Our German aviator friends have a history of displaying gentlemanly conduct towards fellow aviators - it was (in the early 20th century) almost standard protocol among flyers worldwide (both civil and military) to treat one another with considerable respect.

Manfred von Richthoften and his "circus" initiated numerous encounters with our forefathers during WWI.

They were different times with different principles. The days of decency have long since gone!

[pr00ne]

Churchills Ghost,


"The days of decency have long since gone!"

What a strange, peculiar and very sad attitude to have to a period when 60 million human beings were killed by other human beings, the vast majority innocent civilians.

More than happy to consign those 'days of decency" to the history books thanks.

[pr00ne]

Avitor,



"The civilian population knew nothing of the losses.."


Not true. Losses were announced daily on the BBC. They weren't terribly accurate, but they were read out after each and every night.

[Churchills Ghost]

You misinterpret my mentionings mein pr00ne!

The days of decency between air crews was my subject - clearly not the wider conflict of two world wars!

[Avitor]

Avitor,



"The civilian population knew nothing of the losses.."


Not true. Losses were announced daily on the BBC. They weren't terribly accurate, but they were read out after each and every night.

Actually the announcements went;- 'X' number of our aircraft are missing. X=Selective number. At no time did it indicate that 50% of aircraft and crews were missing.

[Tankertrashnav]

the vast majority innocent civilians.



The words "innocent" and "civilians" seem to be joined at the hip in any discussion of warfare. Surely the truth is far more complex?

Certainly I will concede that children are blameless, and can always be considered victims of war. But could munitions workers, shipbuilders, dockers, farm workers, railwaymen, financiers and politicians, all of whom would be civilians, be considered "innocent" in this context? In a total war like WW2, a large proportion of the civilian population, male and female, on both sides would have been actively involved in the war effort, and their contribution would have been as valuable in many cases as that of a member of the armed forces. Allowing for the fact that conscription was fairly universal among the combatant nations, and most men had no choice whether or not to fight, there is no moral case to separate the military from the civilian population when it comes to apportioning guilt or innocence.

[pr00ne]

Tankertrashnav,


Thankfully International law, the United Nations and the Geneva Convention disagree with you whole heartedly!

[pr00ne]

Churchills Ghost,

Oh, I see.

So what about the many accounts of aircrew being machine gunned whilst descending in a parachute?

[jindabyne]

Churchill and Tanker,

Ignore him; he's not representative of his previous profession. A disgrace, in fact. Sorry to lower the tone on here, but ---.

Excellent programme. Worthy of inclusion in the Curriculum.

[pr00ne]

jindabyne,

"A disgrace, in fact."

So speaks the voice of the closed mind.

Why are you so afraid of being challenged, debating a point of view, discussing a differing opinion?

Folk on here are big and ugly enough to argue their own cases, we don't have to agree, we don't have to all have the same outlook.

Try justifying your point of view rather than sending me snide little private messages telling me that I am a disgrace just because I have a rather different world view from you.

[cynicalint]

TTN,

I would rather be prosecuted by Pr00ne than defended by him!

While he is right that it is illegal to (i) direct attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities; and (ii) Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives……

......under International Law eg Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, 17 July 1998 (Link: International Humanitarian Law - Statute of the ICC (http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebART/585-08?OpenDocument)) and others, the UN and the Geneva convention make allowances for civilian deaths provided there is a concrete military advantage to hitting a target used for military purposes by an enemy and there is no other way of achieving the military aim. Moreover, every effort must be made to minimise civilian casualties wherever possible. The number of civilian casualties is where the moral choice must be made; the decision on acceptable levels of collateral damage or civilian deaths versus military advantage must be made at the appropriate level of delegated power, even if that is ultimately the PM and the cabinet.



I have paraphrased a lot but the bottom line is in certain circumstances, civilan deaths are acceptable and that, fortunately, International Law, the UN and the Geneva convention do not disagree with you wholeheartedly!

[pr00ne]

cynicalint,

You miss my point. It is illegal, and also immoral, to deliberately TARGET civilians, under any circumstances.

This is unequivocal in so many differing arenas.

Under these CURRENT circumstances, the Bomber Command offensive would have been deemed an illegal act.

Of course there were numerous other activities during WW2 that would also be deemed illegal using current legislation.

Whilst being extremely uncomfortable with the morals that lay behind the strategic bomber offensive of WW2, in no way would I label ANY of the participants, from ground crew armourer right up to Harris, CAS, VCAS and Director of Bomber policy, as war criminals.

BTW,

I do significantly better in my defence cases than I did in my long abandoned prosecution career!

[cynicalint]

pr00ne,
I think we are now in violent agreement!

[Churchills Ghost]

Jindabyne thank you.

I mean I don't mind the old 'pr00ne' having a go, he's free to aire his opinions but he did seem to grab hold of the wrong end of the stick with respect to my comments.

Yes - I know there were some atrocities which occurred between air crews but, on the whole and through both wars, they were remarkably few and, as mentioned, the prevailing culture was one of relative decency and respect for and between flyers.

No one wanted to be doing what they were doing and who can forget the many moving moments surrounding the Christmas Truce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce) of 1914:

Through the week leading up to Christmas, parties of German and British soldiers began to exchange seasonal greetings and songs between their trenches; on occasion, the tension was reduced to the point that individuals would walk across to talk to their opposite numbers bearing gifts. On Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, many soldiers from both sides – as well as, to a lesser degree, from French units – independently ventured into "no man's land", where they mingled, exchanging food and souvenirs. As well as joint burial ceremonies, several meetings ended in carol-singing. Troops from both sides were also friendly enough to play several games of football with one another.

What I was trying to say was that in those days there was stronger evidence of gentlemanly conduct - something I fail to see in today's society with my wife only last week being insulted by a group of tracksuit wearing youths in the car park of our local Tesco's because she has a limp!

GC
Father - ex-603 Sqn RAF Turnhouse WWII
Grandfather - ex-Royal Regiment of Artilley WWI

[beamer]

Worth a watch just to see and hear the views of the people who actually took part rather than pontificated after the event. Respect to them all.

Some of the film clips were inappropriate and poorly chosen but general public would not have noticed and why should they after all. A little more coverage of the memorial unveiling would have been a nice touch.

A little too much attention by both ITV and the BBC over the last few days with regard to Dresden - that operation has to be seen in the overall context of the bombing campaign by the RAF and USAAF and not in isolation. Some commentators need to pay a visit to the old Coventry Catherdral before spouting forth imho.

[Avitor]

Knowledge of the evil we were fighting is fading into the distance and from memory, it was not Germany, it was Nazism....where innocent words uttered by children at school would result in the early morning knock at the door. :=

[allan125]

It was 168 RAF aircrew who were removed from Fresnes prison in Paris as the allies approached, and they were shipped to Buchenwald, not Americans - then when "rescued" by the Luftwaffe they were sent to Stalag Luft III - as this was supposed to be the day before they were executed forgive my cynicism about the Luftwaffe just turning up by chance that one day early!!

See Squadron Leader Phil Lamason - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/9303440/Squadron-Leader-Phil-Lamason.html) for more information on the incident

Whilst the media still goes on about Dresden what they seem to have forgotten, or are not aware of, is that the USAAF were supposed to bomb first, but were prevented by bad weather, so we get the vilification for being there first!!

[Weheka]

Someone asked the question earlier on what would be the highest number of missions flown by an individual in Bomber Command.

I don't know, but have read about Sqd Ldr Jimmy Malley who apparently flew on 127 operations! He was a navigator and started in Wellingtons in 1941 and did 35 trips. After instructing for a while, he then went to the Middle East on Liberators and did another 32 ops. He then went into training for Pathfinders and flew in Mosquitoes for the rest of his time and completed 53 missions in that role until near the end of the war.

I know that doesn't add up to 127 so he must have done the other odd op here and there.

Anyone else got any idea who flew on the most ops. I suppose if you flew all your ops in the European theatre it would be harder to achieve big totals? Although I am sure the Middle East was no picnic. They would have to be incredibly lucky to even get past the first 30, particularly in 1942-43 period.

[Basil]

Just remember that, had the Cold War gone hot, then all the Geneva Convention stuff would have gone right out the window!

We hope and require that our politicos of all nationalities and persuasions have the skills to avoid using us in anger. Regrettably a forlorn hope.

[Basil]

Anyone know when 'Who Betrayed the Bomber Boys?' will be rescreened?

[jindabyne]

Don't know, Basil, but you can watch it in 4 Parts here --

Who Betrayed the Bomber Boys? on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/channels/335280)

[Chugalug2]

allan125:
It was 168 RAF aircrew who were removed from Fresnes prison in Paris as the allies approached, and they were shipped to Buchenwald, not Americans
I think we both had it wrong somewhat, though me the more so it would seem. From Wikipedia Phil Lamason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Lamason)
Lamason was amongst a group of 168 allied airmen from Great Britain, United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and Jamaica
So true to form the Nazis incarcerated to die without fear or favour.
Thank you for correcting me. It was inexcusable to airbrush, albeit unconsciously, Sqn Ldr Phil Lamason DFC & bar, RNZAF, from history. I can only weakly plead that I had read a somewhat partisan US account of what I suppose was the same incident, and recalled that in my previous post. Doubly inexcusable because only very recently Samuel posted here reminding us of Lamason's courageous leadership.
I still think that it makes my point though. Having succeeded in alerting the Luftwaffe, they did indeed turn up and arranged the transfer of these Allied Airmen into their custody. This was despite
their documents were stamped with the acronym "DIKAL" (Darf in kein anderes Lager), or "not to be transferred to another camp".and so
seven days before their scheduled execution, 156 of the 168 airmen, including Lamason, were transferred from Buchenwald to Stalag Luft III by the Luftwaffe
More should be known about Lamason (not least of all by me!) and about this incident. It encapsulates all the virtues and all the evils of WWII precisely. Where virtue shone it should be celebrated, no matter from whence it came.

[goudie]

In my view, total war is just that. Nobody is spared the horrors of it, My mum came home from work to find the street demolished! My dad, on returning to Portsmouth from the Atlantic was pulling bodies, women and kids, from bombed houses. Coming back to S. London in '44 thinking the bombing was over, my mum,sister and me then spent nights, in an air raid shelter listening to V1's going overhead. They, like the V2's, didn't give a toss who was below. My experience wasn't unique, it was repeated thousands and thousands of times over.
WWII was not about armed forces fighting armed forces. It was one civilisation at war with another civilisation and unfortunately, that includes everyone. I have difficulty trying to comprehend why some people do not understand and accept that.

We should all have nothing but unquestionable respect and admiration for the crews of Bomber Command for what they did. No bloody 'yes but' about it!

[A and C]

I would like to pick up on something Charliegolf said.

"It's about a bunch of really ordinary old blokes, playing down their extraordinary bravery."

This to me rings very true, a few years back I was involved in Project Propellor, a day when those of us with light aircraft would fly aircrew from WW2 to an event at an airfield somewhere in the UK.

All these guys seemed so ordinary when you first met them but as you got to talking to them they would reveal lnccidents as pure fact that struck me as requiring pure courage, for them at the time the incidents were ordinary as it was what was happening to all their contemporarys.

It is the very ordinaryness of these guys who were put in a position of extreme danger and continued night after night that gets my total respect.

(Oh if Andy the AG is reading this I have to say there is nothing ordinary about your ability to drink gin! )

[Basil]

jindabyne,
Many thanks :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Thankfully International law, the United Nations and the Geneva Convention disagree with you whole heartedly!


In that case, not for the first time, I have to agree with Mr Bumble's assessment of the law.

(And many of its practitioners ;))

[TEEEJ]

Programme repeated again tonight.

ITV 1

22:35 Bomber Command

ITV Plus 1

23:35 Bomber Command

Also available on ITV Player

Video - ITV Player (http://www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=320255)

[foldingwings]

Allan125,

Whilst the media still goes on about Dresden what they seem to have forgotten, or are not aware of, is that the USAAF were supposed to bomb first, but were prevented by bad weather, so we get the vilification for being there first!!

I am currently away from home in Germany (again) and don't have ready access to my reference but I am sure that Frederick Taylor's 'Dresden, 13th February 1945' indicates that the Americans actually got lost and bombed Prague thinking they were over Dresden!

Also, Dresden (I visited it last year just before I went to Colditz) was bombed at the request of the Russians who wanted the place softened up as their troops advanced westwards. Churchill agreed, Harris complied, Dresden was bombed, Churchill denied, Harris accused, Bomber Command sentenced! Dresden had not actually featured on the 'Tgt List' until that Russian request!

Foldie;)

[Chugalug2]

jindabyne:
...you can watch it in 4 Parts here --
Who Betrayed the Bomber Boys? on Vimeo
Who Betrayed the Bomber Boys? on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/channels/335280)
Many thanks. I would commend this very comprehensive programme about the genesis and development of the RAF Bombing Campaign in WWII. It portrays the guilty men as Churchill and his Ministers (agreed) and Robin Gibb as one of the few people prepared to stand up and be counted as a champion of Harris's Old Lags and end the 67 year wait for a National Memorial to their 55573 colleagues who paid the ultimate price (agreed).
That here and there Stephen Fry makes the odd dubious claim in his commentary is as nought against those two great truths.
Time that Churchill was outed as the great betrayer.
Time that the late Robin Gibb was commemorated and honoured by the Royal Air Force for the essential part he played in reminding us all of the debt we owe those so very young men.

[allan125]

Hi Foldie

I agree that some of the Americans bombed Prague in error instead of Dresden - however, on page 316 of "Dresden" it states "The Eighth U.S. Army Air Force had originally been scheduled to go in ahead of the British against Dresden on February 13. The whims of the weather had changed that. Now they were going in after the British. This was not unusual. What was unusual was how much of the target city had already been wrecked - in the course of a single night - before the Americans even took to the air" which confirms what I wrote earlier.

I attended a very interesting talk on Dresden (and the book) by Frederick Taylor when the book was published - and purchased one that he signed for me - I also had a relation who flew on the Dresden op near to the end of his 34 op tour for 61 squadron, usually as a navigator in the Arawyn Davies crew, however on the Dresden op his pilot was F/O R J Palmer, and they were in LL843 one of the 34 Lancasters to complete 100 ops (or more).

LL843 is believed to have completed 118 ops by the end of the european war, but this may include "Manna" or "Exodus" sorties.

As the Arawyn Davies crew they had also flown in LL843 on their first op (to the Russelsheim Opel works on 12/13 August '44) and had been attacked by two night fighters and it was also damaged by flak severely enough for it to be out of operation for several weeks being sent back to Avro's for repair and a refit.

Allan

[foldingwings]

Allan, Thanks. As I said I don't have the reference with me in Germany, so thanks for the update.

Foldie;)