Can you help me please?

[sally at pprune]

Hello

This is my first post here – I wish I had stumbled across this site before!

I’m researching the same as many have before me: the best way to achieve my goal of becoming an airline pilot. I have searched this site extensively, but I have 2 questions outstanding. Can you help me please:

1 I’ve seen lots of discussion about OATS’ first time pass rates – excellent for ground subjects, but not very good for flying. However, I cannot find anywhere anything to compare them with. Do the CAA publish these figures? If so where? If not, is there another source? I would have thought (assuming that one is comparing apples with apples) that these are really useful indicators of a school’s quality of training.

2 If I do my IR with a school that is not co-located with a CAA testing centre, does the CAA examiner visit me or do I fly the IR out of an unfamiliar base?

There are probably going to be loads of other questions, & I’ll try and answer them using the search feature, but help with these 2 now would be really nice.

Thanks for the people who run this site, it’s really professional and fantastically helpful.

:)

[MJR]

Can't answer number 1. However with regard to number 2 Yes you will have to relocate to the CAA exam centre unless you have made a special arrangement. But this airfield should not be alien to you as your FTO will have brought you to it during training.

cheers

MJR

[TeeS]

I found it added a fair bit to the final cost due to having to fly to the test centre each time during training. In an attempt to utilise the positioning flights by picking up the likely routes at some mid point the training became a bit disjointed i.e. I never flew a complete route out of cranfield but saw all the separate legs of the likely routes at some time or other.

I believe the hourly rates tend to be cheaper at remote training centres, but you have to balance this against the extra flying that will be involved.

Good Luck

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Sally,

With regard to question 1, I am not sure whether the CAA officially publish results, in term of the companies who trained the students, however, there is a list of 'approved' schools that are validated to conduct these courses. Obviously, the schools will have to meet certain criteria in order to run these courses.

With respect to the quality of OATS, I am reluctant to comment because I have not trained there, however I have been there on a number of occasions and know a couple of people who work there, and it seems like a reasonable establishment. However, as you probably have read, through the search facility, OATS appear to have their good and bad points like any school, and I think it is just a question of going along and seeing what you think. Alot of people seem to get caught up in the prestige element, however, I don't want to start arguments amongst people :D.

Cheers ;)

[Send Clowns]

Sally

It may be worth attending the Flyer International Flight Training Exhibition at Heathrow if you can. It is on the 13th April, and most schools will be attending, and it is sponsored by PPRuNe. Look out especially for the new school Bournemouth Flying Club has set up, Bournemouth Commercial Flight Training Centre (BCFT), if only because I will be on their stand (easily recognised - about 3 decades younger than the other groundschool instructors :D )

If you can't get to the exhibition, call Andy in office hours on 01202 599888 to get details of our courses.

However, I must emphasise that you should consider all the schools and compare them (the CAA has a list here http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SRG_FCL_ApprovedFTOs.pdf ). They all have their strengths, and this being a huge commitment in time and money you must chose that which is right for you.

[Gin Slinger]

SC is at it again!

That last paragraph remains me of the disclaimer at the end of the Radio Times ad on the BBC where it says 'other listing magazines are available'...

[sally at pprune]

Thanks to everyone who has posted replies. The info about IRs is very useful. I’m certainly going to the Flyer/PPRuNe exhibition.

It’s interesting that nobody has been able to cast any light on the first time pass rates. I tried the CAA today, but I don’t think I was talking to the right person or department.

Am I wrong in thinking these statistics would be useful? Are the schools afraid to be judged by results? I know these things need interpretation (look at the education debate about league tables), but we are supposed to be educated buyers aren’t we?

[salapilot]

Sally I went to both OATS and BFC. I left Oats because just had enough. The other side is that I had friends who enjoyed being there. My experience at Bristol was very positive. They treat you as an individual and you'll stick to one instructor (Nasib is the best). The Airport has Radar and ILS on both runways. It's busy but you won't have loads of a/c in the circuit. I've recommended it a few others and they have gone on to enjoy it. Oh yeh it does have it's own examiner as well.

Hope this helps

Sp

[Send Clowns]

Gin, dear boy, I think that opening as I did the overall tone of my post indicated that the decision must be a considered one, and there are many options. I also happened to point out the latest one ... ;)

[mboulton]

009
After visiting BFC stand at the London Flyer Exhibition come and see us, also at Bournemouth. ETA,STS,GTS, a school with a wealth of experiance and advice. and you only have to pay as you go. Best of luck Sally

[Gin Slinger]

....that you've [SC] doctored your first post to remove the comment from the moderator regarding your blatant advertising ! ;)


Night all!

[Send Clowns]

Well considering what WWW has got away with posting in the past about a certain school he worked for, Gin :eek: On a serious note, it was my genuine intention to encourage Sally and anyone reading to consider the breadth of options available not just the most obvious.

And I have to say to mboulton's post that the ETA lot are a good bunch, I know several of them (including him), and look forward to chatting to them at the show. Thanks mboulton for mentioning the pay-as-you-go, also one of BCFTC's advantages.

[oxford blue]

Dear Sally,

Not all schools are reluctant to publish their exam success-rate. If you want to know what Oxford's are, you can find them here (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/corporate/services/news/exams.htm)

I think that the CAA publish a national average. As for the other schools, they appear to be a little coy.

[Alex Whittingham]

The CAA do not publish exam pass statistics by school, I have been pressing them to do just that for some time. When they do start they will tell only the school concerned, not their competitors, and say they do not intend to release the statistics into the public domain. Despite what it says on the exam application form they don't even tell us (bristol) our students' results. The only way we can find out the pass rate is to get every customer to call us after the exams with their results. Most students do tell us, but the results have no statistical validity unless you have them all. It is not a matter of being 'coy', its more a matter of staying on the right side of the law.

As a side issue, Oxford claim the 'best JAA exam results in the world'. How they do that without having access to anyone else's results is beyond me. They also claim to be 'unquestionably the best flight training school in the world', I would be interested to see how they justify that, perhaps you can tell us?

[calypso]

Hello Sally my twopence,

Treat any claims from any school with a very healthy dose of scepticism, they are just trying to get to your money. Think of somebody trying to sell you a used car.

My advice would be to focus on a school with decent aircraft and a good student to aircraft ratio. It is very frustating and disrupting to have your training interrupted because the school does not have enough equipment to cater for the number of students. Many people pass the ATPL theory studying almost by themselves so I would suggest that your personal motivation is more important than the FTO's average pass rate. My school had pretty average study material but I got first time passes in all subjects, I just put the required time and effort in.

I would also suggest that you shop around. The cost of training is just a part of it. Once you finish you might have to build hours, keep current, look for a job for some time, all very expensive. Save money if you can as you will need it later.

Aditionally I would look for a school with a good friendly atmosphere. You are going to be there a lot and it will make a big difference. If you can ask to talk to a few current students and buy them a beer away from the office. It might save you some angst later.

Hope this helps

Regds

Cal

[sally at pprune]

Thanks again to everyone who has provided useful advice - I'm acting on it now & hope it will be of interest to others in the same situation.

Oxford Blue, I'd seen those results before when doing my research & can only commend Oxford for publishing them. What are Oxford's results for the flying tests (CPL and IR)?

Is any school bold enough to publish their results for these tests? Not only would it be a statement of quality of training, but the likes of me would know what we are up against. At the moment, all I have to go on is discussions with other students who give me the impression that test failues are common. Of course, when I come to fly them I intend to pass first time. But I'd also like to know that I can afford a resit if it happens. I was a little take aback when I was chatting to a guy the other day. he'd just screwed up his IRT and was faced with the cost of a recommended 5 hours retraining and another 5 hours to do another pre-ride and test. Just £3,500 plus the CAA fee, when he throught he'd finished!

So comeon flight schools - there are obvously some of you on these forums. How good are you at getting your students through the ground and flight tests?

;)

[Plane*jane]

Sally there is no substitute for walking the talk. Get your shortlist of schools and go for a visit. At the end of the day it really is horses for courses and where you will feel happy. Every school has it's good and bad points, but they really are minor, and it's where you feel happiest is most important because no doubt about it it's a hard slog for anyone.
I chose OATS after a look round (went to 4 schools actually), and to me the attitude and friendliness I received on that visit won me over completely. See.... personal choice I felt happy there. I had the most fantastic time, and not only still fly with some of my fellow trainee pilots now in an Airline but still in contact with many of the rest of them after 3 years. I have to qualify this by saying that I attended one of the last short (approved) courses at OATS where we had our own team of instructors, who were in the main aged and very experienced military guys. Airmanship is what I learned in buckets, and not just ticking the boxes. Another point to note is that Airlines DO like a known product, which as Alex says, is what you get after going to an approved training school. Doing it piecemeal may be cheaper but can give a less consistancy and continuous flow to your training. It's not just about the skills you need to learn, you get so much more you probably don't appreciate at the time.;)

[Pilot Pete]

PJ

Good to see you're still in touch with some of us! Good times indeed.

Sally

Be a little wary of looking purely at pass rates as they won't tell the full story. It could be the school takes on a lot more foreign students for whom English is a second language, they may take students who have failed elsewhere etc etc.

PJ is right, visit the school and get a feel for it, it's instructors, current students and then decide what is best for you. Do also plan for a retake, no matter how good you are it doesn't take much to mess up and not get a full pass first time.

Good luck

PP

[GT]

Sally, with regard to your point 2 I can add the following. I did my IR training at Humberside with my test at Leeds Bradford. As others have said, your FTO makes you familiar with the test centre's approaches, SIDs and STARs, both in the sim. and in the aeroplane.

Having to pay to position the aeroplane for the test is a bind (to put it mildly) but there can be an advantage. If you do a few approaches into the test centre at the end of the positioning flight it means that you are not going into the test cold and you also experience the conditions of the day.

On the day of my test at Leeds there was a gusty SE wind with turbulence due to heating to boot. It was wild down the ILS at the end of the positioning flight, but my instructor kept me on the right path, as it were. Come the test itself the conditions were wilder, but I knew what to expect. I passed first time. Had it not been for the practice approaches at the end of the positioning flight the outcome may well have been very different.

The cost of positioning an aeroplane for a flight test may prove to be an investment. Best of luck Sally, however you proceed.

Regards, GT.