EK DECs now on seniority list

[777-200LR]

The DECs have arrived, the interesting thing is they are all dressed up as FOs on the crew ID photo. Anyone know why?

[desertcamel]

maybe, they haven't picked up their uniform yet......but, i only saw 2 DEC...1 330/1 777. And a DE/FO 380.

[GoreTex]

glad they are back, they are good lads

[Flying Spag Monster]

Slow day yesterday in the 777 house hold was? Catch up...DECs have been arriving since 1985 so what's new....? But don't worry, if you stay really still you might see one in the wild and if really really lucky actually get to pat one.....

[Swan Man]

Huge mistake bringing them in. No pay raises for us now

[GoreTex]

Fantastic idea to bring them back, one saved lives of hundreds, without him you probably wouldn't have a job or a terminal building, swanie.

[Swan Man]

Are you a DEC Gore?
There is not one redeeming quality to getting the DECs to Emirates, just ask the FOs. In addition to taking jobs they keep our salaries low.
What airlines do these DECs come from?

[donpizmeov]

Swany, the lack of pay rise has nothing to do with DECs. It has everything to do with every LCC FO in Europe and the US selling their soul to get a gig here. Courses are filled for the financial year. Don't ever remember that happening before. They now have a holding pool of FO wannabes, can't ever remember that happening either. Supply and demand controls our pay, and it would seem the ball falls on the supply side at the moment.
Luckily the FOs that were shafted by the hiring of DECs have their commands now. Current FOs decided DEC hiring was acceptable when they signed up. So I can't see why you would be concerned by this.

The Don

[777-200LR]

There is some truth in what donpizmeov says. Have you already forgotten the two e-mails sent at the end of last year within 5 weeks of each other? Let me refresh - some new FO(s) were taking the salad dressing/olive oil off the dinner trays home. Will a pay increase of aed 20 a month send them to Spinney's to buy the whole bottle next time? I think NOT! An FO mate of mine told me recently he has seen newbies staff# 412s very regularly making a very good living by selling their days off! I'm not a DEC, but this has nothing to do with them. The bar has been dropped guys, don't expect a pay rise anytime soon. -200LR

[bigdaviet]

The Don,

Do you mean that courses are full until Apr 2013? Is this for FOs or Captains? Or indeed both?! That does not concur with the info I had which suggested they were full until around October time.

Thanks.

[GoreTex]

Don is right, DEC's were always on the table, when I joined last century as a FO DEC's got hired just after me and I didn't bitch because I always knew it.

are you saying that you never heard of EK taking DEC's?

[Swan Man]

Just because EK has always hired DECs does not make it right now. As recently as 8 months ago the company said they have no plans to hire DECs as they were a mistake and a huge headache for the company not to mention shafting the FOs. Hence many well qualified FOs joined thinking no one would jump them. Now we have this.
No matter you point of view most even keeled pilots would agree Emirates does not need DECs at this point. As was said above the classes are full, just upgrade the well qualified FOs already here.

[donpizmeov]

Just because EK has always hired DECs does not make it right now.

I can't see your point Swany. If you joined knowing that DECs had shafted FOs recently, and thought it ok, why would you change you mind now. Didn't your joining knowing this confirm to the company that there is no problem with hiring DECs? As I have said before, you are part of the problem.

The Don

[givemewings]

the company said

Most of us have learnt that saying and having in writing are two different things.

Actually, not really that different, because they can (and will) do what they want anyway... :cool:

[atiuta]

I doubt the company made those assertions in the manner that swannie claims.

Hardly surprising they're looking at DEC's.

[GMC1500]

Well forget your doubts because I heard the exact same denials of more dec's on the two mgmt washouts prior to my last one, by which time they were already coming.
I really wish we had the option of just skipping that washout and going home early or going for coffee.

The truck

[GoreTex]

you have the option, I do it all the time and nobody cares

[GoreTex]

one more thing swanie,
does BA, LH, UA, DL....... management tell their pilots the truth?
I don't think so, every company tells BS whenever it is necessary, it so easy to blame the other or previous managers.
it took me about 3 years in aviation to figure that out, dont believe anything what the management or the guy left or right tells you, make up your own mind and you will be alright.

[GoreTex]

http://www.pprune.org/3436662-post7.html

thats from 2007

[Payscale]

I for one welcome them. If the can get thru the selection and training the deserve a seat. They are resorting to DEC because the expansion and qualified FOs dictate it. Maybe the FOs from the CRJs recruited 4 year ago were the wrong bunch....who knows. But it it reduces the workload for the A330 captains I welcome them all...

[fatbus]

When you have 7 out of 8 fail it puts a hugh demand on the 330 Capt's to cover the flights. As Paycale said any relief for the 330 line capt should be welcome.If the pass rate was higher DEC 's would not be required.

[emratty]

The reason for the high failure rate on the 330 is the large number of unsuitable weak candidates being put forward for command. i am sure if the line captains were asked to name who would struggle it would be the same names over and over again. This is where the seniority system becomes a problem as many of the high quality pilots are sitting in the right seat because all the training is being wasted on people who should never be considered for command.
I for one will also welcome any DEC on the 330 who will be able to reduce the workload, however its a shame for the many competent guys who will probably have their upgrades delayed.
The answer has to be a tightening up of the selection criteria and looking beyond if a guy can pass his PPC using the secret instructor notes.

[Alconguin Crusader]

I will be the first to admit that the US Regionals pilots they hired 3-5 years ago are a problem. We all know they could not get hired at the majors in the US and had to settle for Emirates just to get off that 50 seat job stealing airplane.
However if they can not get through the upgrade process or pass their PPCs it is also a reflection on the training department.
Having said all that the DECs program is still a mistake. We will get LCC domestic narrowbody captains and hardly any International Widebody captains that we might or might not need. The DECs might provide some relief on both the 330 and 777 but very unneeded and undesired.

[The Dominican]

Excuse me but someone hired at EK 5 years ago is now at what? 3,500 to 4000 hours in the airplane, flying under their system, familiar with the procedures and these guys have gone thru what? 5 to 10 training events (don't know if F/O's train every six months or yearly at EK) if these guys are not passing their assessments for command, that is an indication of a systemic training problem, not what they flew before they came to EK, if these guys were really that weak as pilots, how on earth they pass their initial training then?
I suspect that EK is suffering from the common illness of unprecedented growth, training is not keeping up with the demand and the quality of training is degraded as a result

[fatbus]

When these guys were hired @5 years ago everyone said they are going to have a hard time with the upgrade and now they are. Alot has to do with attitude( I was a check airman). I hope I dont have to spell it out!

[donpizmeov]

aveo,

Yes I do think EK hired Crj200 pilots some years ago. They do not hire them now.
Also Fleet decides who gets a command course, not training. Not that this place does much in the way of empire building...at all...really.:E

The Don

[donpizmeov]

Aveo,

There are great pilots and bad pilots from any type you want to name. I can't see why a jungle jet pilot would be any better or worse than anyone else. One of the better fellas I flew with came straight from a HS125 to an A330.
See the above posts re attitude.


The Don

[Payscale]

Attitude is a very broad brush. Its a combination of attitude and aptitude. Its not so much that they came offf the smaller jets, but more the their approach to the experience.
For better or worse it just didnt click with the way Emirates is geared.
Yes there are pilots down the list that probably are very suitable for the NaC course but they dont have the company requirements yet.
BTW there are no secret instructor notes, those are words from a paraniod pilot.

[BYMONEK]

I think he was referring to the 'FOR TRE's ONLY' notes..... that seem to find their way around via emails. You then get guys going into the sim prep'd for events. Pisses me off big time when they know a TCAS event is due and then immediately get on the 'radio' when they see traffic at 20 miles, 1200' below and climbing. Like you do that every day on the line, right? The same guy that almost took control twice in less than a minute during approach because he was expecting a pilot incap.

Sadly, these are the guys that often fail.

[CR9]

Look, regardless of what or where you flew 4,5, 10 or even 20 years ago, the fact remains that they (FO's) were hired by EK and passed all the required training and LPC's plus thousands of hours of line flying. If they are not making it in upgrade then that is direct fault of the training here, which I think we can all attest is some of the worst "training" any of us have ever received. Of course, there are always the select few that have issues but if you look at a comparable air carrier anywhere else in the world I can almost guarantee you that they do not come anywhere close to the failure rates we do. Ask the new guys online (both initial and upgrade) and they will tell you; training and most importantly standardization among the trainers is nothing short of a joke. Heck, just look at the endless begging from training for new tri's and tre's! No one wants to do it anymore except for a "CV booster" which, as a result lies part of the problem. What other wide body carrier, let alone one so "prestigious" (and I use that word very loosely) as Emirates would dare think or have the need of promoting trainers at 600hrs command time? Now, before someone slags off and says something like "uhhh you must have failed something" or "you can leave if you don't like it" just stop, because neither are the problems here.

As for the people thinking its the RJ guys having issues: you guys need to get a clue. Not defending them but people at EK love making a big deal out of little things to make themselves look good or feel better than other's. It happens with everything here: "RJ guys don't deserve to fly heavy's", "Aussie's are anal arse's", "Cadets are idiots", "DEC's are unsafe", "airline time is required to be considered for EK, no other flight time is worthy", "2500hrs total time is to low", etc, etc, blah, blah.... It all come down to the fact that prejudices are for narrow minded fools, of which Emirates seems to be obviously hiring a lot of as of late.

Cheers,
CR

[emratty]

Payscale I think you did not get what I meant perhaps I should have been clearer. BYMONEK explained it very well, everyone goes into the sim knowing EXACTLY what they are going to get and in what order after getting the For Tre Only notes. This is no way to judge if a pilot is suitable for upgrade and is being proved in the Airbus failure rate.
The pass rate for the recurrent PPC looks good on paper and the training management give themselves a big pat on the back for it but when it comes to preparing and judging if someone is suitable for command it's just not realistic. To put a pilot forward they should be almost certain the pilot will pass but at the moment that's just not the case and it needs to change or we will keep having this crazy situation like a recent course where 7 out of 8 failed.

[glofish]

Contacted

That sounds great and would apply to a normal environment. EK however is far from that.

It is certainly desirable to be confronted with an unexpected situation and every pilot would like to be trained in such a way. The solutions and decisions will however be quite varied and many of them could lead to Rome or good training experience.

At EK unfortunately this cannot be applied. The simple reason is that for any situation there is a procedure, briefing, memo, technique, paragraph or FCTM jewel, or simply a ghostly way of 'it has always been done that way' that no one can find anywhere however is religiously followed by the ever increasing TRI/E with 3 months of captaincy and a total of 600h on the LHS.

If you dare to adopt any other procedure, be it the most logical, common sensed and airmanship-proven thing, you will get the ominous 3 and a comment that is was basically ok, BUT .....

Even if Training can surmount this crippling disease, the CP's will uphold their Damocles sword of insane omnipotence, simply not to let common sense gain too much of a stronghold, they'd be eliminated by it too fast.

I see a lot of good aviators, coming from all different types and regions, who within 3 years mutate to EK-Borgs, handling everything through the zillions of books and FCIs. This works as long as it works, and in my opinion EK has been extremely lucky up to today, but for an upgrade such aviation behavior is inadequate.

Contacted nicely described the predominant general attitude towards any work in the SIM. That has been cultivated and it is basically a shame. I do however understand each and every FO trying to get any available information as to be able to reproduce robot-like the exact outline of the right side of the TREs notes.

They simply want to pass the hoops and loops at this company!

Not very encouraging for future hick-ups, but that's the way it is.

[pilotday]

I agree with CR9 and many others here.

An upgrade course should have a 90% pass rate and if a candidate fails, it should be the INSTRUCTOR'S fault. Most TRI's and TRE's are in it for the money and not the love of teaching. Sadly enough, I'm afraid some do it for the power trip and the extra star on their jacket. The best teachers are regular captains but they avoid the training dept like the plague for obvious reasons.

A successful TRAINING program should boast about how they can TRAIN candidates to a 90% success rate...

Everyone here passed the real test..the interview. The FO's aren't stupid. As it stands now, your success for EK command is about 80% preparation and 20% luck on who your TRI/TRE is...that's not good or fair.

An upgrade candidate should be assigned one or two TRI's the entire training program, and only be examined by a TRE at the END of each stage of training, not every single "training" lesson.

Like I said, a normal airline should have a 90% success rate for upgrade and if a candidate fails, it should be the TRI's fault for not properly preparing his student. If the student needs more training, well, instead of failing them, give them more training without destroying his confidence. Of course, some don't have the decision making skills and are un-trainable for command, hence the other 10%. That is industry standard.

When I was an instructor, and if I had a student fail, it was my fault. If I didn't think a student was ready for his checkride, I didn't recommend him or transferred him off to another instructor that could do a better job than I.

Emirates training is a culture of fear. it is not a healthy learning environment. Its breeding a blurry line what is SOP and what isn't. And what is most frightening, it is breeding awful CRM.

DEC's from another airline might be a good thing. Bring some new blood, new, fresh ideas. Inbreeding isn't good. 600 hr TRI's teaching new FO's that become 600 hr TRI's, the inbreeding continues.

I think top mngt EK is starting to get the idea finally, especially when its costing them $$$$

[Trader]

Contacted--I have to respectfully disagree.

The issue if whether or not pilots know what is to occur in the sim is irrelevant. The structure of a recurrent does not mimic a line flight first of all and, most importantly, it is meant to be a TRAINING flight (at least in the current system it is where in the session that follows this 6 months later it will be treated as a PPC).

So there is more value in being able to prepare thoroughly, understand the system background and the failure(s) and then practice them in the sim. Especially when the sim session is busy for the full 4 hours.

The LOS/LOE's during the upgrade are the exact opposite of what we do in the recurrent. They mimic a regular day with one major failure and perhaps a few very minor ones. The idea being to give the new commander a realistic scenario that developes his decision making and management.

Trying to throw an FO in the left seat before upgrade training to 'see' how he does will achieve NOTHING!!! He is unfamiliar with the seat and procedures from that side. You can demonstrate all you need to from the right seat.

It appears that most failures are not due to tech knowledge or handling but to poor management. That shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone. This will become more of an issue since over the next few years most of the upgrades will have had no previous command time.

The issue, in my opinion, is not the aircraft you came from but the seat!!! I think you would be better off hiring turboprop captains then low time 737 FO's when it comes to upgrades. A left seat in ANY aircraft prepares you for a captaincy here at EK. The RJ guys that are here that came from the left seat, I am guessing, have no difficulty upgrading.

[cerbus]

Wrong Trader. The RJ pilots no matter which seat they came from are having a historically high failure rate hence the DECs. When the Talking Horse was here he said they will never hire RJ pilots again. His words were it was too much of a learning curve for them and cost EK money in extra training.
Emirates went basically from late 2008 to late 2009 without hiring any pilots. Also on either side of those dates Emirates hired a lot of RJ pilots and with their high failure rates now Emirates is stuck with pilots that can't upgrade and a year hole in the upgrade process. Again we are stuck with DECs.

[break dancer]

You can't compare EK to the traditional carriers on upgrade pass rates as the traditional carriers would have FOs sitting in the right hand seat a hell of a lot longer observing both the right and wrong ways of flying. Ek tries to get away with quicker upgrades for people with previous command time and unfortunately if no prior command time, the failure rate is going to be higher. Gone are the days of 6000 hour piston/turboprop guys coming through and you can't blame these new guys with 6000 hrs right hand seat jet not being ready - it's the nature of the beast.

[Alconguin Crusader]

In the US in the late 60s and early 70s airlines were putting 200 hour Draft Dodgers in the right seat of 707s and they did not have the problmes Emirates is having with the RJ pilots.
Is it the RJ pilots or is it the Training Dept?

[fatbus]

"Is it the RJ pilots or is it the Training Dept?"

Its unprepared pilots. This is not a train to standard airline and some pilots come and don't really put in the work prior to the upgraded. The failure rate is @ 10-15% over the last the year, with a few bumps along the way.
Its very easy to blame the training dept, thats a cop out, the real problem is the pilots themselves who for the most part think they were more than ready and are too small to admit they just did a poor job.

[ironbutt57]

The RJ problems were caused by certain nationalities that grudges against others, an EMB 190 is much more advanced than 330, just a mafioso excuse to keep certain folks out

Bet if those 'unprepared' RJ pilots had been from a certain desert continent (the TRUE sub-continent) south of the equator, their training would have gone much differently....

[Fear_of_heights]

Seriously enough with the RJ pilot crap.
RJs are doing exactly the same type of flying as a 737/320
cruising at same lvls flying at same speeds both have EFIS and doing 4-6 flights a day.
Just because a 737/320 is bigger doesn't mean that the CAs flying them have better experience , SA ,CRM etc etc... Looking at this logic then a 330 CA should never go fly a 380 or 777 just because they do Indian Turnarounds, flying smaller airplane and never crossed the North Atlantic .

[Swan Man]

If the RJs are doing the same flying as the 737 or 320s why don't they get paid the same as the Big Boys? Why don't they have the same upgrade pass percentage as the Big Boys? Why don't they have the same contract as the Big Boys?
RJ pilots are different and everyone knows it including the RJ pilots and the Training Dept.

[The Dominican]

RJ pilots are different and everyone knows it including the RJ pilots and the Training Dept.

The RJ problems were caused by certain nationalities that grudges against others, an EMB 190 is much more advanced than 330, just a mafioso excuse to keep certain folks out

Bet if those 'unprepared' RJ pilots had been from a certain desert continent (the TRUE sub-continent) south of the equator, their training would have gone much differently....


I'm beginning to sense that there is a certain degree of bias at play here:rolleyes:

[groundtoflightdeck]

My take on this... And not to take away from RJ experience... In general (and that's likley how recruiters would make their criteria) as FOs the Captains you fly with are much more experienced on an Airbus/Boeing narrow body vs an RJ... Why? Because reigonal flying sucks. At my company there is about 15 yrs extra under the skippers belts 320 vs the EMJ. And as FOs you are learning from these guys particularly with learning a commas style.

Also the crew size... 5 FAs on an A321 vs 1 on the CRJ200... It adds a different dynamic. Different issues come up, chain of command, conflicts in the back etc. And keep in mind you will have 15ish on the 777 I beleive.

So yes flight ops wise. Your RJ needs the same performance data goes the same altitudes at the same weather but you walk away with more from the slightly bigger airplanes. And I have flown ERJ, 737 and A320 series... So I am look from both sides. And this may be the recruiters view.

Again, nothing against RJ guys but I'd like to point out there are some things to benifit from that mid weight step.

[clear to land]

Gentlemen (and Ladies), the problem really doesn't stem from previous type-it is about attitude. EK does not spoon feed-you are expected to know what is required to upgrade, and prepare yourself accordingly. This is a major part of the problem. Many have passed the Upgrade with EK, some have failed. Why are the statistics different to other 'legacy' carriers. IMHO one of the main contributing factors is cultural. Who else has this many nationalities in a cockpit. Different cultures have different expectations. Look at the differences required to gain an ATPL as far as exams go in different continents. As far as the RJ drivers go-most of them have come from an environment that was effectively monocultural-from Cabin Crew to Ground Crew to ATC. Yes the flying can be very challenging-but generally that's not why people fail an upgrade. It is management-as has been said before.As an aside, a lot has been said here about 600hr TRI's where EK has been their only Command time-just curious-does anyone know how many we actually have. I am guessing that the number is very small. Meeting minimums in any job doesn't necessarily give you the job. FWIW I do not agree with the need for DEC's, but as has also been said, there is NO ONE here that doesn't already have a LHS, that didn't know about the possibility.

[The Dominican]

I understand your point GTFD, but that is not what is being discussed here, the argument is that an individual that flew lets say 8,000 hours from which lets say 3,000 are PIC on your average US regional airline, then went to EK and for the past 5 years has been flying the heavier equipment, has been watching other captains operate, has witnessed the operation and the different dynamics that you spoke about, that is at least 3,500 to 4,000 hours on property and somehow because of his experience before he came to EK is the reason they can't pass the upgrade assessment???
There is this certain stigma about the whole US regional industry and i am speaking about the industry in the US because for some reason the guys flying regional jets in other countries (the EU for example) feel that they are above the fray, a year or so ago I came across this fellow on an overnight, the conversation went from the pilot shortage to the colgan accident to the 1,500 requirement, then he went on the typical RJ'S rampage, after a couple more cold ones and other topics, it turn into where he was working, well, he is a regional pilot for one of the EU carriers that for the purpose of this example shall remain nameless, at that point when I mentioned that he was flying a regional jet himself, his response was that it is not the same because he is working under the EU standards:confused: nice!

[groundtoflightdeck]

Yes, good point. Im still recruitment oriented;). You'd certainly expect after years on the property there shouldn't be any issues. But I still see upgrade issues at every company. It's scary from the corprate point of view because each captain is responsible for the brand and the assets each departure. Most single employees can't destroy a brand with a bad decision.

[HamFan]

An upgrade course should have a 90% pass rate and if a candidate fails, it should be the INSTRUCTOR'S fault.

Well, that's pretty ignorant but nonetheless an increasingly popular sentiment. Sorry to tell you but there are people out there, even pilots who already in the right seat, who are not fit to be in the left seat - regardless of how much training they are given.

There are also FOs who might struggle to the standard but will always require a close eye. Is that fair? Do you want to ride in the back with him/her flying?

Most of the fails I've heard of lately have been known to be struggling on a good day or else just plain lazy.

early 70s airlines were putting 200 hour Draft Dodgers in the right seat of 707s and they did not have the problmes Emirates is having with the RJ pilots.

No shortage of crashes in the 707 days. Maybe the accident rate back then was what you call "no problems" but not many else would agree.

If they were smart enough to dodge the draft to a futile war, maybe they were smarter than your average RJ pilot and made it to the LHS on merit.

It's been pointed out that the RJ is just like a larger jet in every way except mass. If you're looking for a common link to explain the problems the RJ guys have, it might be time to consider their common background which is notable for slack SOPs, lack of adherence to procedures, cowboy attitude and poor quality RT... all of which we are now seeing at EK. They also all come from one continent. You may not find that palatable but there it is....

The disturbing news is, when they DO finally pass, they'll be instructors in SIX MONTHS.

[Fearless Leader]

[QUOTE]They also all come from one continent. You may not find that palatable but there it is....
/QUOTE]


What a shame that there is such a shallow point of view.
You must be a bloody nightmare to work with.

Get over yourself

[what_goes_up]

We have the highest percentage of clowns and idiots in Training NOW, than at any other time in the history of EK.
Agree, there is some individuals that should not be in training at all.
But sitting, if you are such a superior pilot, instead of bitching about training department YOU should join and change something for the benefit of all of us...

[Fear_of_heights]

If the RJs are doing the same flying as the 737 or 320s why don't they get paid the same as the Big Boys? Why don't they have the same upgrade pass percentage as the Big Boys? Why don't they have the same contract as the Big Boys?
RJ pilots are different and everyone knows it including the RJ pilots and the Training Dept.

They also all come from one continent. You may not find that palatable but there it is....

With those replies you both have the balls to criticize people flying in the US? You can PM me your staff number to put 1000 points to avoid flying with you :)

BTW show me the pass rate of the RJs and your claim about only RJ pilots failing. They don't get the same contract as big guys because they are trapped in a bureaucratic system full of BS and unions, nothing to do with skills or actual flying. For your own information the 320/737 guys in the states do the same EXACTLY flying as the RJ ones. Look Southwest,United,US airways,Virgin, JeBlue etc etc.

As far as the Poor RT you should blame the FAA standards and the training schools not the pilots themselves . Listen to Fedex,United,Delta many guys have the RT habits of flying in US airspace and they fly big boys too.

[White Knight]

BTW show me the pass rate of the RJs and your claim about only RJ pilots failing

Guys failing all over... Even some coming from the 380. Size DOES NOT count in this business.

ATTITUDE AND ABILITY

[White Knight]

Oh yeah. I meant to agree with HAmFan. Some do NOT have the ability to be Captains. End of Story:ugh::ugh:




They should not even be put forward for upgrade!!!!

[HamFan]

Shiitting idly, good to see you're back on your medication. Good post apart from the bit about blaming the training dept for failed upgrades, which is still off the mark.

If you don't want to blame the candidates, for letting themselves down, and you need someone else to blame, then maybe you should look at the recruitment dep't. They're the ones letting in "potential captains" who do not have (or do not demonstrate) the potential.

you should blame the FAA standards and the training schools not the pilots themselves

Quote of the Week.

You must be from Generation Y or Me or whatever they call it. Always looking for someone to blame apart from yourself. Pick up a copy of the regs (and the EK manuals) and do your own work.

[ironbutt57]

It would be interesting to see the aeronautical history of those who feel progression from RJ to "big boys" isn't feasible....

If one or two trainees has issues, then look at the trainees, if it becomes a high percentage then look at your training dept...

[Payscale]

I believe the pass rate last year was 93%....
The hick up with the 7 guys I have no clue what that was all about..

[ironbutt57]

Go spend a year on a regional jet in the continental USA, then tell me about incompetent....have a look at schedule patterns, equipment, and airspace complexity, airports, and last but not least, weather conditions they operate in day in and day out.....

Maybe knowledge level to OBTAIN the license is "back to basics", but the flying experience gained subsequently at any jet-flying regional requires a skill level on par with anything else out there.....ask yourselves what % of the tech knowledge (omitted on the FAA exam,) you were required to pass to get your JAA, Ozzie, or similar, is actually put to use in your big boy day-to-day ops.

[kingpost]

The issue with these guys is not whether they can fly it's their soft skills, leadership and management, abilities that you either have or don't have.

The reason they came from an RJ is because they started there as 200 hour co-pilots, they haven't flown 737's or A320's because they didn't have the experience at the time. Some of them, with the right attitude perform no different to any other pilot however with the others there is a tendency to be weak in the skills required to be a Captain.

Mark my words, EK will still be experiencing this in years to come. There is even a distinct difference between the new joiners from Jet2.Com, Easy jet and Ryan Air. The foundation training, from each airline is remarkably different and very noticeable, Jet2 and easy jet are much better trained than Ryan air guys - it goes with the territory!

My prediction is that DEC's will be employed in this airline for years to come.

[GoreTex]

again, they are recruiting DEC's for 27 years, why would they stop now? they never will, they run a business and can do whatever they want, if its good or bad for the individual they dont care.

[Kabul 1]

Who are the Rj pilots?
Why are they different?
Tks

[FUSE PLUG]

Pilots who came from regional airlines were not at regional airlines because they had sub par skills. They were there and not able to get hired at a major for two reasons, 9/11 and the retirement age changing from 60 to 65. These two events ( combined with shrinking capacity due to airline consolidation ie. mergers) are the reason why pilots from the US regional industry have not moved up the career ladder (in most cases). It is because there were only a hand full of jobs added in the past decade. It has little, if nothing to do with skill. It has to do with timing.

As for the quality of guys who came off 50-90 seat jets, many of us are now Capts here and are excelling. Has it been different from the flying we used to do? Sure. Does that change the fact that the only way to be successful at any airline is to adapt, absorb, and prepare? No. Don't let a few random cowboys ruin your opinion of the nationality as a whole. I never do when it comes to other nationalities.

Lastly a quick question. Exactly how many years will I have to fly here before I'm not a RJ pilot anymore? 5, 10, when I retire in 25 years will there be an * next to my name because at one time in my career I flew a CRJ?

I think its time to get back to talking about DECs because this discussion is sadly misguided.

[Alconguin Crusader]

One of the reasons the Majors didn't hire as much lately is because the RJ pilots with their propensity to fly for free took many jobs from the Majors. Most if not all of the US airline growth was at the Regionals.
They had a very low hourly rate, no pension, no work rules and no contract to speak of. In fact many of them could qualify for free food stamps.
In addition when some Regional airlines transtioned to jets the failure rate was unprecedented. One airline had a 85% failure rate on its captains!
Yes there are many reasons why the RJ pilots were not at the Majors but one reason is surely the skill set. Why are they having so many problems on the heavy metal? Why did EK say no more RJ pilots? Maybe the failure rate wouldn't have been so high if they started on a 737 or 320 but with the heavies it is a completely new ballgame.
*

[ironbutt57]

Crusader, you speak like this AFTER you left the regional and got hired at the majors?? (or did you scab at one?) Your own pilot group screwed up your CBA, by not sorting out scope...almost all regional pilots are ALPA, same as you...have an idea why EK flushed the RJ folks out of the pool, one being pilots with 'bus/Boeing experience became available...

[Head chopper]

Fuse plug! Couldn't agree more!
Unfortunatly all the US guys were labeled because of a small few lazy and vocal guys!
The real truth is that in EK you are expected to have your work done when attending sims or LT. If so you should be given more development. But this expectation of getting your hand held and your ass wiped is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with previous types, it has everything to do with attitude and willingness to work! I have seen US guys from smaller than RJ's and they excel, why, because they have the right attitude and apply themselves.
Those who don't work and consider themselves sky gods always cry the loudest about checking and poor training. It's a minority but a vocal one.. Empty vessels ..etc

[FUSE PLUG]

AC, I agree with just about everything you wrote in your last post. Except for the part about us having so many problems and your entire first sentence. The first sentence is an entirely different argument and has no place in the middle east forum; moreover, its untrue, insulting, and total flamebate.

Get off it, man.

[fatbus]

It's all about supply and demand, when the only jet pilots available were RJ pilots EK had no choice, now they have a choice and it's not RJ pilots. You guys have to understand that RJ hours at the bottom of the EK list, that's it. There may come a time when EK will have no choice and will be back to RJ pilots.

[pilotbaba]

@Fatbus

+1.....

How right you are Sir......

I guess for all those who have not learned this so far in their flying careers, there are 2 most important factors for any pilot....

1st.
Aviation business & careers in flying are cyclical......
(READ "always moves in cycles")

2nd.
It's all about timing.....

[Panther 88]

This debate reminds me of the military vs. civilian issue. But if the RJ guys are so bad in their upgrades, I'm wondering why there currently is a huge 46% upgrade failure rate at BA? One of the reasons R.N. recently left EK to consult with them to figure out where the problem might be.

And already we can see through the posts here the bias towards RJ pilots. And of course these posts can be a sampling of the bias in the training dept. There are too many variables, age, culture, hours, experience, etc. to just say it's the RJ pilots. That's just ignorant. Don't think the upgrade failure rate at BA is due to RJ pilots.

[fliion]

I know a lot of the RJ guys that have become Captains not one has failed the upgrade.

Many are Canadian, European & American

Now the interview is a different story...absolute carnage for the US guys for some reason.

Soft skills?

Dunno

f.

[ironbutt57]

absolute carnage for the US guys for some reason.

During the OZ '89 dispute many Americans were farmed out by their companies to fly the Ansett flights, The post '89 pilots I flew with had many unpleasant things to say about Americans in general....possibly there was some influence there?

[Dropp the Pilot]

...most deeply-layered and anachronistic attempt at s&$t-stirring....

[donpizmeov]

ironbutt,

I think the whole RJ thing is more about "individuals" rather than branding all RJ pilots.
It was a whole bunch of circumstances at the time that lead to the whole RJ saga.
EK had just reduced its training (again), less SIMs, less Line sectors. Training for someone new to the type was now much more challenging, and these fellas were the wrong group to be the first through.
The FOs that EK normally hired were no longer interested. So the assumed knowledge and experience that the training department were use to, and the new training courses relied on, was not there.
They were young, and most were "check airmen" in their past companies, so were having a hard time coming to terms with something new. Rather than hearing "at band camp" we heard "on the RJ" when trying to discuss stuff that needed to be covered during line training.
They were just harder work that the normal FOs that had been hired before them. This isn't their fault. As EK wouldn't have hired them in the past with the experience they had. Changes within EK made it no longer attractive to new hires. EK should have admitted this and provided the training these guys really needed.


There aren't any Aussies in training management, so I don't think it was 89 bias.

Anyway, about them DECs.

The Don

[glofish]

don

They were young, and most were "check airmen" in their past companies

happens here again ... and will definitely not help the situation!

What worries me more is reading our ASRs. I guess I would not have to comment it, but it's deeply troubling.

It makes me believe that maybe EK fails the wrong bunch!
Passing the ones that drool to get that star and that write that drivel and failing the ones with common sense and airmen ship!!

I know it's provocative and exaggerated, but it's certainly food for thought.

[145qrh]

People that "want" to be trainers should IMHO be barred from the post.

As you say, the guys that don't want to do it, are the ones that should be doing it, but they have too much sense, common or otherwise.

It's a bit like politicians, anyone who wants to be one shouldn't:ugh:

[White Knight]

It makes me believe that maybe EK fails the wrong bunch!
Passing the ones that drool to get that star and that write that drivel and failing the ones with common sense and airmen ship!!

I don't often agree with you glofish - but you are spot on with this:ok:

[GMC1500]

Just to add some actual stats to the argument (though I thought this thread was about DECs??)
Of my batchmates, 3 failed the interview, one of which was an RJ guy from Canada. The other 2 had both flown 747s, and one of those was a former US air force commander for many years on a heavy jet.
The only other RJ guy from my course passed his interview.

So, where is all this stuff coming from?? Anyone else have some ACTUAL stats to back up the bias???

Maybe we should stop hiring 747 fo's since more of them failed the interview based on my experience?? Yes, that makes perfect sense.

[LearBus]

Anyone else have some ACTUAL stats to back up the bias???

:E:}

Then this wouldn't be pprune!

You mean "My friend's sister's cousin's uncle's nanny's husband who's friends with a TRE who said the pass rate is 5.7% isn't hard actual facts?? Oh my:sad:

My experience is significantly different from others in this thread.

Everyone that I know who were previous RJ captains, which is about 10 or so people from all over the world (SA, EU and NA) all passed the upgrade on the first try with no failures, extra training required, etc.

It's funny how one always receives the unsolicited CV's from the folks with lower staff numbers, who are FO's, bragging about how they were 7(add your favorite digit here)7 captains before or how many hours and years they have as a 747 FO, etc....and none of them from the US in my experience.

People fail the upgrade because they aren't prepared, have other personal issues, or just have bad attitudes. What someone flew before coming to EK has no effect on whether or not they will upgrade...the factors above do.

[Mr Good Cat]

How much pilot development occurs prior to upgrade?
Is it tailored to the individual?


HIT. NAIL. HEAD.


Whether there are the resources to do this is another matter. I see lots of talented individuals from all backgrounds in the right seat - Regionals, LoCo's and bigger stuff. When helping them out with the upgrade study / practise during flights and layovers I see lots of hard work being put in but just a lack of command experience to help with decision making... and that is not something that can be self-taught from a book but involves sitting down with experienced skippers and running through LOS style scenarios.


I have heard the company were planning to run a few classroom sessions along that line but I'm not sure whether they are tailored to individuals weaknesses?


MGC

[Trader]

Which is why they would be better off hiring anyone with left seat experience. Any Dash 8 captain in Europe or NA would make an excellent choice especially considering upgrade time will be at 5-7 years. A guy with 5-6000 hours mostly left seat in a turboprop (or RJ), in my opinion, is a better bet than a 2500 hour guy from a 737.

[Jetaim]

Just the climax of a prolonged ass licking exercise. If your tongue was too coarse might "they" might not have liked it and might not work out. No special skills, intelligence, airmanship required. Just dumb acceptance of the EK "style" and mnemonic capabilities to repeat the lesson at your interview like a 3 year old kid. Beside that interview questions tend to be the same so is just a matter of having the right insight just like for PPCs if you have the right acquaintances you have the full program in advance in your mail. Beside that being of certain nationalities may help . If you have a few "mates " in training you might find it easier than others. I personally participated in a final SIM in which the TRE was a good friend of the upgrading guy. He did a sub par job but he passed anyway and they went for dinner together and they did not even invited me...****ers. A complete pantomime and now some one, always the same EK sponsored pumpers ready to jump in to protect their masters , will write that I never worked for EK and that gives you the idea of the real " qualities" required to work for this arsholes.

[Wizofoz]

Jetaim,

How did you manage that when you have never worked for EK?

[Swan Man]

As opposed to you drinkers of the company Kool-Aid? We know this is the best job you have ever had. Do you honestly think EK can do no wrong?
I present for one the hiring of DECs (AGAIN!) is a pretty aggrievious wrong committted against all the pilots of Emirates. Just one of many insults thrown at us by the company.

[Wizofoz]

Do you honestly think EK can do no wrong?

When has anyone ever said that?

[Bluebaron]

What is the current time to command if I joined now as an experience b767 pilot with 6000 hours?

[SOPS]

Bluebaron, if you join now as an FO you will be on the bottom of the list, regardless of hours/type experience. Upgrade time is anyones guess, 3 years, 5 years, 7 years who really knows.

I must admit though "The Don" is pretty well up with this stuff, and if he drops into this thread he may give some useful insight to your question.

[flywildcamel]

A young guy from Ryanair, TRI, NO other experience than that, no long-haul operation, no wide body handling experience, has been hired as a DEC by EK, he starts this October the 5th.....

That is just :ugh:

[virgin camel]

A young guy from Ryanair,…so what….maybe he will stay with EK a long time.

TRI….well one day he might be a good trainer with EK.

NO other experience than that….so what. Maybe he's a top bloke and will be your mate one day (didn't think of that did you ).

No long-haul operations……give me a break…if your talking about ETOPS/FANS/NATS thats a sit down and listen/read/understand…all journeys wether its to the pub or the moon have basic decision points about your options to a useful piece of tarmac.( crater )

No wide body handling experience….well he's a pilot and will just fly the airplane.

Has been hired as a DEC by EK….because he was interviewed and the company wants him…

Narrow minded.

[White Knight]

No long-haul operations……give me a break…if your talking about ETOPS/FANS/NATS thats a sit down and listen/read/understand…all journeys wether its to the pub or the moon have basic decision points about your options to a useful piece of tarmac.( crater )

No wide body handling experience….well he's a pilot and will just fly the airplane.

At last. Someone with a bit of common sense!!!

Why is it some pilots try to make long-haul, wide-body flying into a voodoo-like mystique?

Seriously FlyWildCamel - an aeroplane's an aeroplane's an aeroplane (or maybe airplane if you're from that side of the pond).

[harry the cod]

WK

I agree that wide body flying is not such a big step up from narrow body as some make out. Getting used to height, momentum, fuel jettison, taxi and a few others comes very quickly.

However, flying the actual aircraft is often not the problem. Pilots fail upgrades on flight deck management, time management and decision making. For somebody coming from a short haul operation in Europe with plenty of options for their 737, to suddenly find themselves over the pole at night with a serious medical problem and no communication, the difference is massive. This is where experience can not be replaced. Most major airlines work short haul up. In other words, when you fly with the likes of BA, Lufthansa, Qantas, Delta etc, the guys flying the big metal have more experience than those flying short haul. Gained from years of flying with 'old hands' and years of familiarity with Company procedures, this is invaluble when the lights suddenly go out and you're miles from nowhere.

With so many newbies joining Emirates with only short haul under their belt, our Ryanair DEC may find himself very much alone. The weight of responsibility should never be underestimated, especially when it involves the lives of up to 400 people. And what of the new guys he operates with, how much experience will he actually be able to pass on in his first year or two? Start getting a few more DEC's with similar backgrounds and it doesn't take long for the dilution of knowledge to filter into the operation.

In my opinion, for a Company that prides itself on higher than industry standards, this is a retrograde step. Not only is it a slap in the face for some of our experienced and very capable F/O's, it's just another hole in the Swiss cheese that really shouldn't be there.

Harry

[archer_737]

Well, this is not the case because I was not flying for Ryanair but, coming from 737 does not mean short of experience in long haul or things like ETOPS.

In my last company we were using 737-700/800 for 7 hours flights into Africa. You know, used to sh:mad: weather conditions (ITCZ) and done thousands of hours in ETOPS flights.

I agree that my experience in wide body handling is 0 but, hey! did a nice visual circuit with the 777-200 in the sim :ugh:

[donpizmeov]

I hope you are still so positive when the DEC keeps arriving and prevents your command Archer.
If you are, welcome on board. But please do give it some thought.

The Don

[archer_737]

No, I'm not positive. I just accepted to interview with EK knowing about DECs hiring so, I just accept it.

I was giving another point of view so we get a bigger and clear picture of what flying a 737 means.

But, if you want my opinion about DECs. Maybe I'll be worried when EK gets to the point where my last company was. National carrier with an average of 13 years at the RHS and a national union of pilots preventing expats to get a LHS.

"Resignation" could be the word.

[White Knight]

I agree with you to some extent harry; however, For somebody coming from a short haul operation in Europe with plenty of options for their 737, to suddenly find themselves over the pole at night with a serious medical problem and no communication, the difference is massive. has probably only happened to a VERY VERY FEW pilots ever... So really, this would be down to being able to make command decisions, mustering your resources, time management etc as surely as you would an uncontrollable fire in an ERJ 145 say, over the Med.

Different problem, different place, different decisions but same basic methodology and thought processes I would say. Ergo; command time is command time whatever you've flown. Piloting a new aeroplane type at the same time should not be a problemt to any decent and capable pilot.

NOT that I agree with the DEC policy however. Just clarifying my thoughts regarding wide-body and long-haul. Easiest flying I've ever done:cool::ok:

[thegypsy]

White Knight

You did not have to pilot a new aeroplane type and new routes as you joined EK as a F/O so how would you know?:rolleyes:

However as someone who has I can tell you I found it no problem so I can confirm your theoretical viewpoint:E

[harry the cod]

Yes, maybe long haul flying is easier than bombing round Europe in ****ty weather on 4 sector days. Sitting on the flight deck for 6 hours then another 6 hours in the bunk is great...... when everythings going okay.

Look, there will always be guys who are sharp cookies who will learn quickly. In fact, there's a good chance they may be quicker at adapting than older F/O's who've never had a command and are mid forties or later.

And whilst I agree that command is a mind set, it's always going to be based on experience and what you did with that experience. 20,000 hours is useless if you never learn. So, whilst we should all apply good CRM and use of resources, over relying on your F/O in time of crisis due to lack of experience is far from ideal.

For an airline of Emirates supposed calibre and standards, we should not be in a situation where we're even discussing these issues.

Harry

[cerbus]

Ergo; command time is command time whatever you've flown

Than why do so many RJ pilots have trouble here at EK both on the intial and upgrade?

[Craggenmore]

Harry,

Lots and lots and lots and lots of ex-major (BA, Cathy, EK, Singapore, Virgin) captains and white haired RAF pilots who help run the training department and fly the line at the Big Orange.

Maybe not the short-haul to long-haul, "with the same company procedures", but nonetheless, still flying with the same 30 year experienced captains that you talk of, and daily.

Great experience to have so many airlines ethos' being passed across over a working week. A real privilege and perhaps an ideal training environment.

[Pointer]

to my humble opinion:

quite some wind-up waterproof fabrics around. :yuk:

Its all so simple! NAC (upgrade)= 2x training; DEC= 1x training. $$$$

Life isn't fair... otherwise this wouldn't happen :{

[glofish]

To make a decent skipper on the EK fleets, imho you need both experiences, LH and SH.

A local who has started on a T7 and after 6000 hours passed his upgrade is basically as inadequate as a DEC who has 10000 hours but only SH experience.
It is not a coincidence that the most respected legacy carriers mainly build their career model around SH then LH experience for FOs, then upgrade on SH with transition to LH later.
The whole reason is that you build up experience with cycles, and LH does not provide enough in reasonable time. In addition you need experience of the specific leadership and management problems (not flying skills) that arise on LH, they are different.

Lack of either makes a less suitable skipper and with the big mouthed pretention of being among the best carriers, EK would be well advised to follow suit.

[GoreTex]

Pointer,
They train you as an FO, then upgrade you and then need to train a new FO, they train a DEC only once, its 3 trainings vs 1

[Trader]

I would also guess that insurance plays a role. When you hire the number of low hour guys they are now your 'average experience' declines and rates go up.

[GMC1500]

Cerbus, unless you have some actual data to back up what you're claiming, its just a wind up.

[Pointer]

@ GoreTex;
Yes you can do math.. if I compared both new hires..

[fatbus]

Believe it or not there is plenty of data.

[Mephistopheles]

Guys suck it in for once. How long has the DEC debate been running? No major catastrophe yet all the young F/O that jumped around to get a quicker or easier command always shoot their mouths off, perhaps a sign of not being ready to sit in the left & be a leader instead of a whinning brat. Remember, grown ups work & kids pretend to work.

[White Knight]

Guys suck it in for once. How long has the DEC debate been running? No major catastrophe yet all the young F/O that jumped around to get a quicker or easier command always shoot their mouths off, perhaps a sign of not being ready to sit in the left & be a leader instead of a whinning brat. Remember, grown ups work & kids pretend to work.

On behalf of a lot of my colleagues in the RHS you are out of order! Just remember that not all EK F/Os are youngsters. Many gave up commands to come to EK. Whilst I agree that they would have been aware of EK taking DECs it doesn't make them whining brats:=

So, take a hike fellah:hmm::hmm::hmm: