Did anyone see the 120 spinning out of controll when comming in to land at goodwood on Friday ?
I was ranted at on Saturday morning, buy a guy at goodwood who thought it was me.....
(for clarification why this thread was started Biggles.........)

Nelly
I think several people saw it (mostly through the gaps in the fingers covering their eyes) including the fire truck driver who was despatched to meet the pilot after he was told to land on the other side of the airfield :eek:

So I take it it wasn't any of you 2

Fenestron stall? :E

As a piroette, it was impressive. Shame he got interrupted; I was looking forward to the triple salko with a half twist.. :E

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/prooner/top-points-smiley.gif

Anybody videoing it? Tried a search on youtube but nothing appears to have been uploaded yet.

Stuck pedal?

Well if anyone has video of this "fenestron stall" they're going to be retiring early on the Millions Aerospat will pay for evidence of this hitherto unknown event. A bit like finding film of the Virgin Birth or aliens landing at Rothwell.

But I think we all know that ain't gonna happen. At least, until after the Second Coming...

No wasn't me !!! People thought it was me !!!
But no !!!!

It was me once, but in a Gazelle. :eek: :eek:

aliens landing at Rothwell.

Eh?:eek:

I'm sure the good folk of West Yorkshire would have noticed.

MG - your Gazelle incident wasn't on the apron outside Flightworks c. 2002 was it?!

No stuck pedal, no fenestron stall - just a lucky escape and an over-torque due poor handling, I'm afraid :uhoh:

MG - your Gazelle incident wasn't on the apron outside Flightworks c. 2002 was it?!
No, it was in a field north of Andover in 1984.

Could of been the Rothwell in Lincolnshire, always thought the aliens landed there years ago....ah seem to remember that was the Lightning boys from Binbrook on a session (Rothwell Arms)....:rolleyes:

I flew in on Friday morning and heard it on radio ... Great airfield but what a shambles !!! During my approach we had the 120 out of control on wrong side of the field , a fixed wing landed opposite direction ( downwind ) with NO radio calls . A Long Ranger was hovering around the edge of the active for ages saying he couldn't turn down wind ....there were no marshalls , the joining instructions made no sense and in any event were not used as all runways were being used at same time !!! Add to this sitting in curtesy car for over 10 mins waiting for permission to cross during which time no aircraft landed .
Not impressed .... But fun day out all the same !!
Ps it was breezy but not that bad .....

Yes! A shamble to say the least! And a crazy landing fee for a bacon sandwhich and 2 undrinkable cups of coffee due to tasting of bleaching agent!!!

Started as a good service a few years ago, but sadly it has been going down hill since!

The festival was great! Shoreham and a cab next year, with change to spare!!!

So which 120 was it then or are you all sworn to secrecy? Agree re service at Goodwood no marshaller tower effectively told me to land on runway suffice to say I parked elsewhere

Nelly and I know who it was, but it would be churlish in the extreme to name and shame :oh:

I'm sure we've all had moments we'd rather not have had, despite the entertainment value! Thank goodness it didn't end in tears :ok:

Reading all the comments about this incident makes me wonder how many of you would have had the ability to recover control and land safely to disembark himself and all of his passengers i believe he needs a round of applause and i am sure he will have learnt a valuable lesson. my message to the unknown pilot of the 120 is well done.

But perhaps you could outline the circumstances and actions that led to this event - it would be useful for novice 120 drivers to be aware of control limitations. Also as this pilot recovered, mentioning the actions he took and the consequences might also be helpful.

i will never forget a saying which once it was explained to me i have found invaluable in my 120......

when its windy, always turn right ...... to avoid the fright....

hello clubdancer........ were you there ????

Did someone mention over-torque? Surely not... or the PIC wouldn't have lifted later in the afternoon, would he? := :E

on the saturday morning i had two phone calls,
one from a fellow pilot asking if it was me, explaining it was very serious as the heli spun not once but moved away and did it again..... thought it was me as didnt know my reg......
the second call was from (.......) lets not point the finger........
he also thought it was me, telling me that i should have had an engineer take a look at the heli before i took off again in the afternoon as both these people knew that it was most definatly overtorqued........
after he calmed down a bit when i said it wasnt me - he babbled on about reporting it to the powers that be..... as this is very serious......

again...... it wasnt me !!!!!

I don't think we need to get into a witch hunt do we ?? Luckily most of the really daft things I have done have been well away from you lot !!
I think the pilot did well to keep it together but IF he isn't aware of what he did wrong how will he ensure it doesn't happen again . If it was me I would be straight onto someone like JJ and go out on the first windy day and repeat it .
Ps why does it have to be over torqued ? If the fenestron has stalled it will not be pulling lots of power .....and if collective is left alone what would produce such a spike ? ( just asking and not saying it couldn't happen )

Nigel

Having not seen the incident myself, it's difficult to speak with any certainty. However, what 'usually' occurs in these circumstances is that the rate of left yaw is so rapid that it requires full right pedal to stop it. In an EC120 (and Gazelle) that will almost certainly result in overtorque. An exacerbating factor is that the pilot usually panics (quite naturally) and wants to get away from the ground (again, quite naturally). The collective is raised and the yaw rate increases further still as does the torque.

As an aside, the EC120 will record any Torque exceedance on the VEMD so the engineers (and pilot if he knows the button presses required to access the data) will know for sure whether, and by how much, the torque (or Ng / T4) was exceeded.

JJ

Edited for typo.

Did someone mention over-torque? Surely not..
Well, being an EC120 if one did [cough] over-torque then presumably the craft would talk-back to its mechanic having recorded the breach!

Luckily most of the really daft things I have done have been well away from you lot!
Yes, one is grateful for having worked in an era when mobile phones and YouTube were 'non-evidenced'!

Even in Italy we have drivers who are not immune to that most annoying of syndromes .. 'non-concentration-itus'!

Even Italians are not immune (http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/video?id=f56643b4-17de-4786-a24c-3d9e46bce12a).

No excuses for the pilot, who doesn't need to press any buttons to find out if there's been an over torque; he'll get one of these in his face when he's powered down...

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab71/prooner/Overlimit.jpg

A bit like seeing a flashing blue light in your rear-view mirror after speeding on a motorway - you're nicked pal! :eek:

Have been following this post with interest, and am intrigued as to which EC120 it was, but as I wasn't there, I guess I will never know!

However does anyone who was there know if this was a private flight or an AOC flight with paying pax in the back?

and am intrigued as to which EC120 it was, but as I wasn't there, I guess I will never know!
I wouldn't say that. The UK heli fraternity is fairly small, somewhere along the way someone will say, "oh yes I saw the Colibri G-???? at Goodwood on Friday 29th June!"

Its quite likely to have been one of these though .. :E G-CBNB, G-COML, G-CONN, G-DEVL, G-EIZO, G-ETIM, G-FCKD, G-GTJM, G-GTJM, G-HVRZ, G-IGPW, G-ISSY, G-JJFB, G-KLNP, G-LHMS, G-MODE, G-OLDO, G-OMEM, G-OTFL, G-PDGE, G-PWAD, G-RCNB, G-SKPP, G-TBLY, G-TGGR, G-VIPR, G-WZRD, G-ZZOE, G-ZZZS

The best comment I've read so far is ....

perhaps you could outline the circumstances and actions that led to this event - it would be useful for novice 120 drivers to be aware of control limitations. Also as this pilot recovered, mentioning the actions he took and the consequences might also be helpful.

Someone interested in promoting safety and who knows the circumstances would hopefully offer up the info.

Ok for clarification....
I own G GTJM and I was not there on Friday....
I went on Saturday... As previously stated...... So you can cross that one off your list....

I was accused of operating illegally.......
As the people at goodwood had got the booking mixed up.
I received in the post the other guys reciept for his booking on Friday,
Instead of my receipt for MY Saturday booking so can see why they rang me up moaning at me......

Nelly..

My thoughts - open to correction / debate

The EC120 is a wonderful craft BECAUSE it records every mistake that you make.

Hence if there was an overtorque the "Over Limit" yellow warning comes up and the Pilot cannot remove the evidence. Scrolling through to the relevant screen, the over-limit parameter is displayed, and so it enables a very precise conversation with the engineer to understand if the machine is now grounded or whether it can be flown back. There are tables for this so the machine is different from (say) a Jet Ranger in that on the telephone I would hop that an engineer could clear / ground the machine.

An EC120 that develops a spin does not have to be over-torqued to recover - not in every case. It depends, not suprisingly, on the amount of power that you are using before you react, how far you stick your foot in, and how fast you go from current pedle setting to [wherever you end up]. If you are light weight and hovering with plenty of reserve then the spike (from rapid movement to high-right-foot) and the power requirement (eg flooring your right boot) may not exhaust your reserve.

If you are closer to the limit, and you have the time to act more steadily, and the presence of mind to do so, you might apply "full right boot" in a controlled fashion to reduce the potential impact of the anticipator dumping Jet A1 into the engine and giving an over-torque. It is possible that (with appropriate loading / power usage before you reacted) you might not over-torque.

============

I did not see this event, I was not there. Spins can start by getting the wind onto the wrong side of that BIG, BIG sail. Theycan also develop simply from not recognising the flight characteristics of the machine.

The EC120 has a big tail which is aerodynamically shaped and, into wind at speed, this "wing" gives a very large anti-torque effect. When the peddles are level in the cab you are actually holding the tail fan in a "left foot forward" position, so to go to "full power peddle" you have a big distance to move, and the poewr change is not linear (I think). This is a significant difference to heli's without such a Fenestron tail. As you bleed speed on approach in a 120 the anti-torque effect from that "big wing" tail reduces and you need to replace it with fan-induced anti-torque; increasing the right boot steadily on approach as you slow. If you don't control the left-yaw as you reduce speed (being slow on your feet, or not being used to the amount of boot required (eg used to flying a Robinson 44)) then the rate of yaw will increase as you bleed speed - requiring even faster feet / more feet at an increasing rate. The rate of change in yaw accelaration is not linear with speed loss; this means "stay ahead of the aircraft, as playing catch-up can be "interesting").

If you think you are behind the curve in yaw control as you approach then the guaranteed safe sloution - if there is such a thing in aviation - is to "go around". Nose down and increase speed so that wind over the tail increases and brings the anti-torque component from the "big wing" tail back up to add to the fan-effect and the problem goes away. If you are behind the curve in yaw control as you approach then you need to get ahead of the yaw very quickly because the rate change of yaw acceplaration will change dramatically as you continue the approach. Once youre tail passes through 90 degrees to the wind, then reducing sail effect works against you, and once the wind gets on to the left-side of the tail you are going to rapidly spin-up.

Once a spin starts it will usually take a number of rotations to stop it. The spin will be fast (30 rpm+) and diorientating; the spin is about the mast and you are sitting quite some way ahead of that. You will be thrown forward against the seatbelt and to the right right - physically pushed against the door. However, if you can keep your right foot in AND you can stay away from other objects it will come under control.

=========

I have not (yet) got into an accidental "violent" spin in the EC120. I do, however, regularly practice spinning on the spot, spinning whilst travelling, and spin control. I did once allow the aircraft to complete a single 360 spin because to prevent it would have over-torqued. As we came around into wind I pushed the nose slightly forward and increased speed to recover. It was a non-event as I was prepared for it.

John

On the whole an interesting and helpful post. As you offered it up for correction in your opening sentence, here's a correction:

"you might apply "full right boot" in a controlled fashion to reduce the potential impact of the anticipator dumping Jet A1 into the engine and giving an over-torque"
The Anticipator isn't connected to the yaw controls; it's only connected to the collective. The torque 'spike' associated with right boot in an EC120 is simply the extra aerodynamic load of the fenestron causing the rotors to (momentarily) slow down thus the governor responds by dumping in more fuel. I suppose if you substitute 'governor' for 'anticipator' in your sentence that would be correct.

As an aside, assuming that the aircraft is on an into-wind approach, the rate of yaw increases when the relative airflow to the fin gets beyond its critical alpha (just like an aeroplane wing stalling). This will occur after only about 20 degs (very approx) of left yaw.


JJ

Peddles?

!!!

Both corrections accepted

In particular, I never could spell to safe my live!:ouch:

So, in summary, the EC120 is a descendant of the SA341 and is vulnerable to loss of tail rotor effectiveness - especially in certain medium to high wind conditions and at certain profiles involving a relation between the tail rotor/fin and the prevailing wind/slipstream?

And - because the EC120 is relatively low powered - this vulnerability becomes more of an issue than if say the heli had an extra 600shp?

And - as Friday was blowing a mild gale is it fair to assume that there is a probability that while manoeuvering about Goowood, the 120 in question may have gotten his tail in a twist?

AS: ...there is a probability that while manoeuvering about Goowood, the 120 in question may have gotten his tail in a twist?

With respect, I think that's the only accurate part of your post.

And as for '...an extra 600shp'?! Good grief.. :rolleyes:

Not a good beginners\ low hours machine then. Feet allways seemed to be the hardest part to get correct, when training & in overload I would have cooked a fair No. of engines:{
Talking to other pilots the consensus seems to be feet are the first thing that seize up.

Not a good beginners\low hours machine then

I think that's fair. The 120 is an easy machine to fly, but it is sensitive to W&B; it forces the pilot to think and fly accurately. As John R81 says, this is a good thing, but it doesn't suffer fools gladly and like most VEMD equipped Eurocopters, it will squeal on any pilot that doesn't appreciate that.

I'd bet a week's wages that 'the 120 at Goodwood' was over-torqued. The really scary bit however, is that nobody I spoke to saw a technician go anywhere near the aircraft before it flew off again in the afternoon... :eek:

And you are sure that the pilot did not clear the machine with a mechanic by telephone?

The parameters of the over torque are recorded on the V Med. The details can be given on the telephone to a qualified mechanic. They look up the details in the Eurocopter bible of bad and expensive things, and give you the answer.

It's not like over torque in a More basic, older machine design where all you know until a physical inspection is that you had an over torque:E

John - I admire your generous optimism, but this wasn't a 'phone call to a techy, just to check' over-torque. This was a 'how badly melted is it?' over-torque... I'm surprised the vid hasn't surfaced on YouTube yet.

Didn't see the Friday event, but on Saturday did see a R44 yawing through about 60 degrees as it started to lift from spot 3, with the skids still on the ground. Interesting to say the least. Also quite alarmed when a boy got out of a rotors running Jetranger and started to walk towards the tail to get around the other side. Luckily the ground staff noticed in time.

Supplebottom,

a very comprehensive list of UK registered 120's, however, on Thursday, for eg, EC120 SX-HVR visited Goodwood.......

The plot thickens.......

Most interesting.

Let's hope this doesn't become a Greek Tragedy then !!!

unlikely to be a greek tragedy as the OP mentioned Friday
The greek registered machine was there thursday........

Another one to remove from your list of probables is G-LHMS and I know both EBG 120's are in maintenance. Come on mate fess up don't be shy this is pprune no one will take the p..s out you ;-)

Well I know G-DEVL was there it's blue with a silver stripe

Sorry Broad not DEVL either it was there Thursday not Friday.....

Still nothing on YouTube....