To me, this is a sad day for Face(book).

I don't condone the bar's policy on this (refusing to serve soldiers in uniform during the day time) - they got it wrong, but they have since apologised, and that should be enough.

Instead, the bile continues, and what started as a legitimate protest has forced the closure of the one place in town that is genuinely interesting.

It shows what happens when the sheep mentality gets going and becomes 100,000 strong. All the problems of the world are down to the one villain who didn't serve the heroes.

The Military do a great deal for this country. They have every right to make a stand, but when an independent business is forced to close, this just becomes another act of bullying - the very thing the armed forces are supposed to protect us against.

Browns Bar closes after online campaign nears 100,000 members | Coventry Observer (http://www.coventryobserver.co.uk/2012/06/29/news-Browns-Bar-closes-after-online-campaign-nears-100,000-members-43932.html)

Perhaps you ought to start a different campaign pointing out that an apology has been accepted by those who were affected and that it is no longer the business of anyone else.

I did worse than that, I tried to engage in the "boycott" FB group, and got a torrent of abuse.

There would be no point in starting a counter group, as voices of reason, support for a business and so on just don't spread like anger does.

Also, it looks like the mother of the family concerned has accepted the apology, but the brother wants to force the place to close.

That would be a real shame, and it would show the bullying power of social networks.

Jabird:

With the utter sh*te we see and hear of every day in the UK the men and women who serve in our forces to ensure that business owners like this man can serve the rubbish that exists should be given a lot of latitude. As long as they are behaving themselves then there should be little to no impinging on their activity.

When a business owner chooses to refuse to serve a particular class of people he must accept the consequences of his decision. This man is doing just that... Oh well... It's a free market for a reason. I have no sympathy and, apparently, a lot of other people don't either.

He's got Freedom of Contract.

And so has everyone else.

The bar owner was a total cnut.

They ask for a :mad: coffee and get told he won't serve them ?

He got his just desserts ( and I should add I am no fan of the drunken behaviour
I've witnessed by some forces personnel in Germany )

He should have welcomed them and given them the coffee. No sympathy.

This has arisen before, but never gone this far, it should serve as notice that making a general rule regarding the forces or those in uniform is very foolish.
Every situation should be dealt with separately.

I have seen exactly the opposite in force in the USA, a refreshing experiance

In today's world in the US, I shudder to think what would happen to bar that refused to serve servicemen and women who were in uniform.

But most likely they would not stay in business long enough to find out. :E

This is in no way an attempt at acceptance - or explanation - for what happened, but its a fact that some licencees are under the impression that its an offence under UK military law to serve alcohol to anyone wearing a UK military uniform. Note - not neccesarily "law", but maybe some kind of arcane military regulation, which if true could presumably only be directed at the military personnel involved.
I assume ( and I accept the usual ass-u-me caveats re the word assume) that this is total nonsense. However a lot of pub-managing people believe it, and given that I can possibly understand what happened. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
Now can anyone confirm that there is no regulation or law regarding the wearing of uniform and the drinking of alcohol in a public place?

Milo, there may well be. But these guys wanted coffee which, unless they asked for Irish Coffee, is alcohol free

Campaign against the bar is a bit misguided.

Member of staff took the decision without realising offense and an apology made and accepted by mother of dead soldier.

Now campaign is to destroy someones business..........

Milo, there may well be. But these guys wanted coffee which, unless they asked for Irish Coffee, is alcohol free

That was their statement but if so why go to a pub ?
Nowt wrong with alcohol but did everybody agree that there were ONLY going for coffee and nobody would drink alcohol ?
Personally going go a pub would be surprised if everybody only drank coffee.

Is Costa / Starbucks etc not in Coventry.

That was their statement but if so why go to a pub ?
Nowt wrong with alcohol but did everybody agree that there were ONLY going for coffee and nobody would drink alcohol ?
Personally going go a pub would be surprised if everybody only drank coffee.

Is Costa / Starbucks etc not in Coventry.

Looking at the photo in the news article, possibly as it was close to the venue of the funeral.

Capitalism 101.....forget who your Customers are....and the fact you are in business to serve those customers and guess what happens?

west lakes
You may well be correct, but unfortunately bar staff (as I'm sure you well know) often have limited degrees of freedom of thought
So an instruction "no drink in uniform" becomes "no drink of any kind in uniform....."
Besides which, any adult male walking into a bar is going to automatically be assumed to want booze of some kind (rightly or wrongly) and I can see the staff just saying "no" before the conversation even begins. Total f'up by the staff, but within their limited understanding of the world they probably thought they were "obeying the rules"

As I said I'm not trying to condone - just trying to find an explantion in the hope others can learn and not repeat the mistake

MM
Totally agree, hence my "general rule" comment above.

Too often we see employees doing as they are told (face it if they don't they risk disciplinary action) that ends up landing employers in the poo.
The days of allowing folk to think for themselves are in the past in too many occupations

The BBC report gets to the heart of it with this paragraph: -

Earlier this week Rachel Lancaster, chairwoman of the city council's licensing committee, said the owner had pledged to review its door policy. (my bold)

A blanket ban on servicemen in uniform is unsupportable. The owner should have waited until the soldiers behaviour deteriorated to such an extent that eviction was required, hardly likely in this case.

Citing previous disturbances with uniformed servicemen is unlikely to cut it either, as there are probably just as many cases of civilian on civilian disturbance as there are of servicemen on civilian disturbance and Brown doesn't appear to ban civilians en masse.

I seem to remember reading that the premises in question had a blanket ban on serving anyone in uniform.

Has it been explained why this ban was in place?

Might be a good starting point...

Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres - in this country, it is good to kill an admiral from time to time, in order to encourage the others.

It's as good a lesson as the rest of the country can get. How many other pub and bar licensees - or cafes and restaurants, or shops etc are likely to try that trick again?

As has been said, it's in total contrast to the US where they seem to appreciate those who are willing to put their lives on the line so that the rest may sleep easy in their beds.

I know we are largely biased here but, FFS, why can't those who serve(d) get a little respect from the feckless twits they defend(ed)...

Is it that difficult to comprehend that they only get to whine publicly like nine year old girls because people who don't do that stepped up and made sure they could? http://www.hqrafregiment.net/images/smilies/wnaker.gif

Is it that difficult to comprehend that they only get to whine publicly like nine year old girls because people who don't do that stepped up and made sure they could? http://www.hqrafregiment.net/images/smilies/wnaker.gif
It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who gave us freedom of press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who gave us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organiser,
Who gave us freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
Who gave us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier who salutes the flag, Who serves under the flag, who's coffin is draped by the flag;
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

Father Denis O'Brien USMC.


Not forgetting Kipling:

"God and the Soldier, we adore,
In time of danger, not before.
The danger passed and all things righted,
God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted."

I seem to remember reading that the premises in question had a blanket ban on serving anyone in uniform.

I wonder what they would have done if 6 policeman had turned up and demanded coffee.

I wonder what they would have done if 6 policeman had turned up and demanded coffee.

Or firemen etc etc etc

I have ZERO sympathy for the bar in question, the feckless mob need to examine where they place their priorities, letting a serviceman/woman get a drink/coffee/meat pie, or merely exercise a bit of common sense and ask if they are on duty etc etc.

No sympathy for the business owner, Action/Reaction.

As to why in recent years this discrimination has flourished I have no idea. Some 24 + yrs ago my chums and I had a few wets prior to my wedding, all in uniform ............... most wearing swords!

The current situation is immoral and a disgrace, for what our Forces have done for us the drinks should be "on the house'! IMHO.

Capitalism 101.....forget who your Customers are....and the fact you are in business to serve those customers and guess what happens?


:D:D:D

that's pretty much 'on the money'.

(pun intended)

Absolutely agree with the sentiment of many previous posters. We need to fundamentally look at society's attitude towards anyone serving in the armed forces.

I recall being on a long-haul US flight where pax who were US service personnel were provided with free drinks in Y class (whereas other pax had to pay, which is another story altogether) and were handed the drinks with "thank you for keeping the United States safe".

It doesn't have to be as explicit as that, but it won't do any harm to let army, navy and air force personnel know that their fundamental approach of putting their lives on the line is appreciated.

Whether we appreciate the underlying politics that send servicemen (and women) into conflict zones, is another issue. However, coming back to the US, it's good to see that the disgraceful attitude of parts of the American public vis-a-vis their troops in VN (Hanoi Jane springs to mind) is a thing of the past.

I recall being on a long-haul US flight where pax who were US service personnel were provided with free drinks in Y class (whereas other pax had to pay, which is another story altogether) and were handed the drinks with "thank you for keeping the United States safe".


I generally welcome the changed attitude to the military over the last 30 years or so. When I was serving the "ban the bomb" campaign was still very active and the services were not exactly flavour of the month in the UK, and of course the Vietnam War saw a nadir in public attitudes to the military in the USA (and Australia). I do agree, though, that this Facebook campaign has a whiff of the lynch mob about it, and I would certainly not support anything similar.

I'm not sure I'd want to see things go as far as they seem to have in the US either, where every bunch of blokes in uniform seems to draw a round of applause. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but as a Brit I think I'd cringe if I was on the receiving end of that sort of reaction.

Wouldn't object to the free drinks though ;)

As to why in recent years this discrimination has flourished I have no idea.


really ?? no really ?

the huggy fluffs see the military in some bizarre construct typified here: Stop the War Coalition (http://stopwar.org.uk/) and so the the actions of the their left of centre god Tony Blair leave them denouncing the military as a form of denial of their very ideological dyspraxia.

the lefty mentality in fact engenders such acts as these:

BBC News - Soldiers heckled during homecoming parade in Barking (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10324027)

Muslim group pledges more protests against UK soldiers | UK news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/11/muslim-group-anti-war-protests)

and so the political correctness of the mentality leads to discrimination against the very people that fight and have fought for their freedoms.

go figure.

It is worth pondering though on the perceived threat the bar owner feels. If true I would probably be safe in saying it would not be from serving troops, but more likely from a group of civilians.

Browns has had an arbitrary door policy for many years as anyone that has lived in Coventry will know.
I was asked to leave for no apparent reason on my first visit there, as have other friends, including an airline pilot.
Shaved-head member of staff strides across the bar: 'I fink you'll find you ain't gonna get served in 'ere.'
Stevef: 'Oh, any particular reason?'
SHMoS: 'I don't 'ave ter give no reason. All right?'

So, Mr Brown is now getting a taste of his own hospitality and it's going to affect his wallet more than it will ours (and it doesn't take much to see through his apology to Cpl Thacker's widow).

Hmnn ... I wonder what kind of people are regulars at Browns? If they are mainly lefties, it might be worth the trip to engage some of them in an eyeball to eyeball conversation. Not sure if I would wear my old uniform, or my pseudo left wing intellectual camouflage. :E

In today's world in the US, I shudder to think what would happen to bar that refused to serve servicemen and women who were in uniform

This has all happened before, of course. Don't overlook the sad case of the late great movie star Victor Mature ("I denied that I was an actor, and I have two hundred movies to prove it") in a movie studio commissary.

Late in the day's shooting of the latest war story, he and another actor, both fully dressed as Roman legionaries and straight from the set, nipped in to the commissary for a cool one. They were refused a drink.

Said Mature: "What's your problem here? Got something against the armed services?"

I would guess a part of the perception problem is due to Iraq and Afghanistan wars being deeply unpopular, whereas the Falklands (for example) was quite the opposite.

Attitude to the services being on a par with the above.

My understanding is that it WAS, at one time, a criminal offence to serve alcohol to a police officer in uniform. The Licensing Act 2003 removed this restriction.
I am not aware that it ever has been, in my adult lifetime, an offence to sell alcoholic beverages to MN or military personnel in uniform. I've been served in Army, MN and RAF uniform.

Came home to our mountainside urbanisation the other day to find a small contingent of the Spanish army parked in the communal parking place and enjoying refreshments in the nearby restaurant. I cannot conceive of any situation here where they would have been refused being served as they were in uniform.

(Expletive deleted), don't these UK bar and restaurant owners who refuse to serve soldiers understand the purpose of the military ?

Storm in a tea cup. The bar has closed for one day, to avoid a possible protest. Of the 100,000 facebookers who cared enough to use their index finger to click "like" or whatever - how many are customers of this bar? :rolleyes:

The publicity has probably been GOOD for the place! :hmm:

Stuckgear - first of all yet another plea from me for all to avoid the use of the overused term "huggy fluff" Yours is the 27,482nd example of its use on this forum, and I'm getting sick of it!!

That said, please dont confuse the Stop the War Coalition with "huggy fluffs", who might be defined as those who want to make love not war (dont we all, thinking about it). The adherents of this so called coalition are only interested in berating and weakening the military strength of Western democracies (including Israel), they are in no way critical of the military actions of any of any Middle Eastern and other Asian dictatorships, whose human rights record they blindly ignore. They even manage to turn the shooting down of a Turkish F4 into an act of provocation by the Turks! Huggy and fluffy these people certainly aren't - they are a danger to Western democracy!

Basil has it right, there is no law against serving alcohol to anyone in uniform. As for barring soldiers in uniform...soldiers generally don't drink in uniform, they take off their uniforms before going out. Shocking isn't it!

If you pronounce the Fluff in Huggy sibilantly it's very onomatopoeic.

At this stage, it might be useful to have some input from those who run pubs in the Aldershot area say, used to dealing with the armed-forces personnel as it were...?!

I think I can understand the worries of the pub-owner in question, which lead to the "blanket-ban" on squaddies or whomever in uniform. One assumes that squaddies on short leave from their barracks, might constitute a real threat to local pubs (similarly to any other groups of young individuals, all of whom have closely-cropped hair...). The pub-owner probably also simply left "standing instructions" not to allow skin-heads" or "coach-parties" access to the pub.

By all means, vilify your ordinary pub-landlord if it makes you feel better temporarily. And thank your lucky stars you won't be the one made to compensate his eventual losses.

What a mockery of Queen and Country etc. (you should be ashamed of yourselves.) Taking it all out on a simple pub land-lord goes to show just how far GB is going down the drain today... :sad:

This is as pathetic as the soldier that was refused entry to a hotel and then chose to sleep in his car before moaning about it to the press!

Cue the moronic hate campaign...

People are turned away in bars, hotels and other businesses on a daily basis, why is it that only the military whine about it?

The ban probably extends from the days when the Scots formed the backbone of the British army and indeed, were cannon fodder for centuries. As such the ban is racist in overtone and application. Anyone who supports the pub or its staff is guilty of racism themselves by association. There's an argument that might endear itself to some liberal hearts and minds?

The ban probably extends from the days when the Scots formed the backbone of the British army
Or, perhaps, back to the days when the IRA would target known British military haunts?

It's funny you should say that for is not the owner, Ken Brown, from Ulster?
Perhaps he is apolitical, a stance which seems to be an Irish characteristic?

What a load of cobblers. The difference is one word, respect. I was delighted to witness the reaction of Americans to their returning servicemen and women, and indeed the polite, embarrassed reaction of those servicemen and women despite the clear witness marks of what they had been through, enough to earn anyone's respect.

Compared to the British reserve and "rather not know what they have been through" bollocks we have had to put up with following years of New Labour/ liberal antipathy and hatred towards the military and the overall defence sector, it is refreshing to know many appreciate that that we sleep soundly because of their sacrifice and hardships. The armchair pundits on here should try just one week in Afghanistan, change their diapers, then comment accordingly. We are fighting an implacable enemy, fed by their religious fairy tale masters, and desperate to escape their own turgid lives by bringing the world down to their primitive, superstitious caveman mentality and it is those fine few in uniform who protect us from it

It is a source of absolute bafflement that the viciously abusive protests one has seen at Wootton Bassett have been tolerated by the British government let alone the ordinary member of the patriotic British public.

Are the Armed Forces the last minority group that faces discrimination, without any redress to the law?

For Pete's sake, have people lost their sense of proportion? Since when was a misguided refusal deserving of the loss of your livelihood? Sounds like a spiteful vendetta.

I was refused re-entry to a bar once because I couldn't prove my age. The fact that I was 25 and had been drinking in there two minutes earlier - only stepping outside to check the next-door cinema schedule - didn't wash with the doorman.

Did I act like a prima donna and launch a national campaign to shut the bar down? No, I simply took my custom elsewhere. I thought that was the way the British did things?

Soldiers in uniform do not cause trouble in pubs. Simple fact. Soldiers out of uniform may be problematic! (Don't see much trouble if any at all after the army/navy rugby)

I've never worked or even drunk in Aldershot, but I used to work in a "squaddie pub" in Hounslow and we had more trouble from civilians than the soldiers.

I was refused re-entry to a bar once because I couldn't prove my age


that's because being served alcohol in licenced premises* under age is illegal, being in a licenced premises in uniform is not.

biiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference.

NB: many do not actually know the correct laws regarding age and being in a licenced premises.

We are fighting an implacable enemy, fed by their religious fairy tale masters, and desperate to escape their own turgid lives by bringing the world down to their primitive, superstitious caveman mentality and it is those fine few in uniform who protect us from it

You mean the Labour Party?

that's because being served alcohol in licenced premises* under age is illegal, being in a licenced premises in uniform is not.

Yes, but there's a biiiiiiiiig difference between barring someone on reasonable grounds and barring someone who's clearly over 18, but doesn't have their driving licence, simply because you're on a power trip. This was the latter. That much was clear by the number of other, obviously younger, people he was letting through while talking to me.

So it's not a biiiiiiig difference at all. Some doormen are idiots. Some barmen are idiots. Some customers are idiots. Just deal with it.

Thanks everyone for some very interesting replies.

A few further comments:

I know we are largely biased here but, FFS, why can't those who serve(d) get a little respect from the feckless twits they defend(ed)...

I agree. The place in question has a reputation for let's say a "quirky" door policy at best, and even though I could see why squaddies might be refused alcohol during the evening, this was during the day, and they only wanted coffee.

However, the defence argument works both ways. In a democracy, the military are there to carry out the orders of the elected government, not to give orders. So:

It is worth pondering though on the perceived threat the bar owner feels. If true I would probably be safe in saying it would not be from serving troops, but more likely from a group of civilians.

I suspect that in general, that is very much the case. One of the men refused was the brother of the deceased, and he has made no secret of his desire to have the place closed down permanently.

I wonder what they would have done if 6 policeman had turned up and demanded coffee.

I think it is highly unlikely that they would. From my observations, those in uniform needing refreshments tend to use the drive through chains where they can drive in and out very quickly.

During the evening, it would naturally cause great concern for anyone to turn up to a busy bar in uniform. So there are always going to be some house rules - Browns got it badly wrong on Monday, they deserve a rebuke, but they don't deserve the lynch mob.

Storm in a tea cup. The bar has closed for one day, to avoid a possible protest. Of the 100,000 facebookers who cared enough to use their index finger to click "like" or whatever - how many are customers of this bar?

Do the maths! How many of us (UK population) are active members of FaceBk - I suggest it is about 1 in 6, so that would give us 50,000 if EVERYONE who was active in Coventry joined the group.

Now Coventry is a city where we cold barely get 5 un-aligned people to turn up for a Q&A rally about an elected mayor. Now it is always easier to click "like" on a Facebook group than to actually get of your backside and go to an event, but I would struggle to imagine if any more than 5% of this group live in Coventry.

So next week, I'm starting a boycott of Miss Selfridge. Anyone joining me?

and so the political correctness of the mentality leads to discrimination against the very people that fight and have fought for their freedoms

They were refused service because they were in uniform, not because they were in the military. We need to keep that distinction - otherwise no bar could ever have any kind of door policy, ever - and the thought police would well and truly have spoken!

Shytorque

:ok: