Advice on buying a aircraft

[aerofoil1]

Hi all
I know there are already a few similar questions already posted on here about aircraft ownership but here's another
I'm currently flying around once or twice a month
Usually the flights are only local and lasting around an hour. Im seriously wanting to buy my own aircraft
Ultimately a four seater to enable me to take my family up.
Currently my airfield only hires there planes for hourly slots
I would like to go on the odd long trip say jersey or even Spain

How does insurance work ie hull and liability are they both compulsory?
Do I go for permit to fly or a Cessna 172 perhaps
What are the average costs
How many hours does an engine usually last before it has to be repłacd
I'm fine with renting but I like the idea Of owning so I can just jump in and go and stop over a night Without worrying about getting the aircraft back
Thanks

[Jan Olieslagers]

Have you considered joining a co-ownership?

[peterh337]

What is your budget?

[The Fenland Flyer]

And what's your flying budget per year afterwards?

[Crash one]

LAA Permit would be the cheapest option but depends on what you want to do, VFR daytime only? or Airways £££.
Do your own maintenance signed off by a grown up, or chuck it in the door & throw your cheque book in after it?

[A and C]

The Cessna 172 is a good place to good place to start the search but I would not go buying a Cessna 100 series aircraft until we see how this SID,s thing pans out.

I take it from the post that you made you need to have the four seats full, this means for all practical purposes you are unlikly to be able to go very far with any less that a 180 HP engine, we can discount Permit types as only the RV10 is able to for fill this requirement and unless you build one yourself you are unlikely to find one on this side of the pond.

To keep the cost down it would be best to seek a common type such as a PA28, both the PA28-180 & 181 would fit the bill with four people they can lift enough fuel to take you half way down France from Oxford. Parts are cheap and supply is good, the aircraft are known by most maintenance company's so you should have few surprises. The older 180's are getting a bit long in the tooth but if well maintained this should not put you off.

The TB10 is another place to look, there are some good aircraft to be had and it will match the PA28 in terms of performance and cost.

I know that some on this forum will suggest some other aircraft, most would fit the bill but the issue of parts availability and cost will be a factor.

If you can find a hangar to keep it in the real star of this sector of the market is the Robin DR400 it will do all that the PA28 or TB10 will do but 10-15 kt faster and using about 30% less runway, the performance is so good that the 160 HP Robin will match the performance of the other 180 HP aircraft.
With two adults on board the DR400-180 (fitted with suplimental fuel tank) will fly Oxford to Bilbao non stop and land with two hours fuel in the tanks, the only snag is that when the supplemental tank is filled the C of G moves aft and effectively turns the aircraft into a two seater unless the rear passengers are very light.

[aerofoil1]

I have thought about co ownership but really would like my own aircraft
My budget is around 13k not a lot I know
Say for instance I bought a pa 28 or similar what would the running costs be
Also if it needed work doing what am I permitted to do myself? I'm mechanically minded.
what is the difference between permit to fly and cessnas and the like
I won't be flying the airways as I don't have an instrument rating
Will be vfr
Unfortunataley I don't have access to a field, that would certainly save cash
The local playing fields are not going to be an option !
What if I asked a farmer if I could keep it in his field
Just racking my brains here
Really do love aviation and can't see myself financing a CPL so my own aircraft is my dream!
Thanks again everyone

[A and C]

I think your attitude to those who maintain C of A aircraft requires a little adjustment, it is not a case of simply throwing your cheque book after the aircraft and being ripped off as your post suggests.

The fact is that no one in the GA maintenance world is making much money (except the CAA) by the time the overheads are covered and the cost of having someone maintain your aircraft be it permit or C of A will be the same for the labour if you are getting a skilled service.

if you look at the typical GA maintenance hourly rate you will find that it is about 50% lower than a typical car main dealer.

I think that considering the overheads most GA maintenance shops offer good value for money, with the cost reflecting the overheads rather than the money that is going into the pockets of the maintenance company.

[aerofoil1]

Vfr daytime would work for me
Thanks

[A and C]

Any four seater you find at £13 k is going to be an unairworthy wreck that will have some sort of pond life living in it, my advice to you would be to find a long established and stable group of about five or six members and get a share in an aircraft.

With your budget you should be able to find a very clean PA28 or the like and with only five or six members of the group availability should be reasonable.

[aerofoil1]

Around 2-3k

[Unusual Attitude]

Get yourself a share and see how you get on with that first.

I had shares for about 10 years before buying my first aircraft, the main reason I bought my own was because I was looking for something unusual to fly / aerobat and there were no shares of that type around.

I now have both my own permit aircraft and a share in a CofA type (or whatever its called nowadays).

The permit aircraft is a high performance single seater for when I want to be a hooligan and the CofA is a grown up 4 seater for when I'd like to do some more relaxed flying without my knuckles being white....

The Permit aircraft I maintain myself and doesnt cost that much to run, £500 for insurance, £70 per month hangerage and about £500 for parts for servicing and the annual permit. Thats doing about 50hrs per year in it.

The CofA type would be a financial killer if I was to run it myself, hangerage is about £160 per month, insurance about £1500 and the last annual was about £4-5k, thats after we'd just spent £5k having a load of other work done.

If your thinking about something like a C172 / PA28 I'd go group all the way, I did 250hrs in my last group one and never had to dip my hand in my pocket other than the fixed and hourly costs.

Regards

UA

[Dan the weegie]

Get yourself a share and see how you get on with that first.

UA posts excellent advice, I've owned a few and shares are a good way to start, just make sure it's one you can sell on relatively easily.

If you insist on buying a plane buy something popular, it pays off when it's time to sell.

Permit aircraft are significantly cheaper to run but you wont find many 4 seat ones. The main reason for this is that as A and C says that the costs of having all the relevant certificates to do maintenance on an EASA type is mad expensive, more so the parts which must come with a certificate that costs a bomb.

Ownership is always about 50% more expensive than you expect it to be and you'll use it probably 25% as much as you hope, so be prepared :).

[rateone]

Hi A1.

If you own your own a/c the fixed costs can be horrific - Maintenance, Hangarage and Insurance are the biggies.

To give you a feel; on my CofA aircraft the insurance is c.£1.5K/yr. My hangarage is pretty reasonable but if you are at an established airfield it will be about £2-3K/yr. Outside parking will be cheaper but there is an impact on the airframe and on damp avionics. Maintenance can be a killer. I budget around £3-£4K/yr for maintenance but my last annual was £6K as the a/c needed some unplanned workhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif and this is for what I consider to be a pretty well kept aircraft. If you're looking to pay only £13K for an aircraft it's going to be old and tired and chances are you're going to be looking at some big bills down the road.

As a newbie to a/c ownership I would go with a group everytime. That way you can learn the ropes without too much outlay. With group ownership fixed costs are shared and usually take the form of a monthly charge.

OK, so you don't have the pleasure of knowing it's all yours but you can sleep at night knowing that most of the costs are already covered (if the group is well run) and you're only paying a fraction if something goes bang. Also most group aircraft are not used as much as you would think so availability is not usually a problem.

Rateone

[aerofoil1]

Thanks for your replys everyone all advice taken on board either group shares or permit seems to be more practical in my situation I dont get to fly as often as I would like and I guess having a C of A aircraft sitting at an airfield is going to cost money.
The hourly slots I'm booking are great but id like to go further out perhaps the south coast somewhere
But thanks again all it's certainly an insight and very tempting to see aircraft advertised in pilot magazine for like 12k ! Must stop looking now !

[foxmoth]

If you can find one get a share in a four seat Jodel, you will get much better performance and lifting power at less cost than a Piper or Cessna. Something like this:- Jodel 1050 3rd share for sale (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=18694&imid=0)

[dont overfil]

Hi Aerofoil1,

Been there, done it. I can't disagree with any of the posts here but they are being very kind.

£13000 is not a lot for a four seater but not impossible. There are people out there desparate to move on aircraft so there are bargains to be had.

Running costs are another thing altogether. An EASA/CofA or whatever you would probably need to get four seats will cost £5000 a year maintenence in a lucky year. That's what it cost our group this year for a five year old aircraft. Imagine what it costs for a 30 year old one. Plus insurance plus parking plus CAA fees.

10 years ago I owned a 25 year old Archer. I loved it. I had no parking charges but it cost me £10000 per year not including fuel or engine fund.

You also said day VFR only. It's amazing how quickly you may grow out of that point of view.

I am now a member of a group with a modern aircraft. It's like having your own at a fraction of the price (and worry). Availability has never been a problem and the tasks are shared.

Now for the arithmetic £6000 maint + £2000 ins + £1500 parking + fuel for 30hrs @ 8gph = £2300 total £11800 = £393 per hour for an old aeroplane!

Alternative is leave the family at home.:hmm:

D.O.

[aerofoil1]

Don't overfill
I see your point of view! It looks very expensive
I'm sure a 2 seater would be ok I'm definatelly looking into a permit to fly plane maybe one with fold up wings so I can tow it back to a garage !

[pulse1]

For £13,000 you are definitely limited to something like a Jodel or Condor. If you want fold up wings you might consider a Kitfox or Avid which are also much cheaper to run.

[Pilot DAR]

Aerofoil1,

Remind yourself that with similarities to a car, boat or house, when you buy a plane, you're buying into something large/complex/expensive enough, that it requires operational support from others, and they are entitled to be fairly paid for their time too. That means cost.

Airplanes, depending upon the nature of their authority to fly, bring along with them a "system" within which they operate. This system is intended to assure that they are safe to fly. It includes many of the aforementioned costs. Most everyone seems to assert that they expect the aircraft that they fly to be at least safe. Most pilots do not have the skill or capability to assure this on their own, and so have to pay for this to be done for them.

Though I very much encourage flying and owning, you gotta keep it within what you can afford, or it gets miserable for everyone. I have owned my C 150 for 25 years now. Yes, a "spam can" by newer spam shell standards, but it's a very nice one, and I don't even think about the operating costs. Other aircraft I fly would bankrupt me if I had to pay the expenses - I know my limits...

Yes, co ownership, or perhaps go back to your hour at a time aircraft rental organisation, and offer a hansome daily minimum, to take the plane for the day. Money talks, if they think that the aircraft might sit for part of that day anyway.

Welcome to the prospect of ownership, but 13,000 pounds is not realistic for sole ownership of an airworthy aircraft in the long run, unless you can mitigate all of the other associated costs.

[aerofoil1]

Pilot dar
Wise words thanks!

[Katamarino]

How about $50,000 purchase budget and $1000 a month for a C172 or C177 in the USA...?

[AdamFrisch]

It always seems to me that people make up a budget beforehand that they then make the plane fit. And that's where the disappointments come.

Airplanes that are for most parts 30 years or older, don't really behave exactly predictable. Also, more often than not, if a plane is for sale it means the previous owner hasn't been flying it as much as he should and it's been sitting etc. Planes break down when they don't fly. They need to be flown regularly, which is why I've always advocated not to shy away from higher time airplanes.

When I bought my plane a wise man said "you're going to end up spending as much as you did buying her the first year just to work out all the gremlins". I laughed. Of course not. Impossible. What a madman!

A year later that was exactly, to the dollar, what it ended up being.

But since then, in over 70hrs, there basically hasn't been a single squawk. I've done at least three plus 1000nm cross countries in adverse conditions, one over 3000nm. Nothing - she's been behaving flawlessly. I know it won't last, but for every hour I fly that initial spending gets diluted.

My point is, don't do budgets. They won't work. Buy the plane, make sure you have as much as you bought it for on top to sort everything else out in the beginning and iron out kinks. Then pay and play it by ear as you go along.

For a big twin I pay $92/month in tie down. I pay $2000/year for insurance. Those are my only two fixed costs.

[peterh337]

My point is, don't do budgets. They won't work. Buy the plane, make sure you have as much as you bought it for on top to sort everything else out in the beginning and iron out kinks. Then pay and play it by ear as you go along.

I would not agree in the general case of UK GA, where most pilots are severely budget-limited.

Especially this chap who is not going to get more than a high-end windsurfing kite for the £13k.

13k is way too low for outright ownership of anything other than absolutely rock bottom stuff e.g.

http://www.fly365.co.uk/images/ouraircraft/thruster-t600n-gccuz.jpg

whose bird pulling power is going to be somewhere below zero - as evidenced by this hilarious book :)

At 13k I would look for shares, or knock some like minded heads together and form a syndicate around something that can go places. This chap talks of going abroad; you need something reasonable...

[Unusual Attitude]

Is it just me or does that look quite fun? :ok:

[AdamFrisch]

Peter, you bought a new plane and there a budget makes much more sense as you start, supposedly, from a squawk free, zero time platform. But a 30-50 year old plane with journeyman maintenance is very hard to budget.

I think the questions to be asked are: Can I afford to buy this plane? Can I set aside at least as much as I bought it for, for maintenance the first year? In that case, I think it's viable. So this gentleman should buy the aircraft for £13K, but make sure he has another £13K either saved up, or readily accessible over the next 6 months.

[Katamarino]

I think you're being a little simplistic, Adam. Every aircraft is different; not all are going to be in such poor shape that you need to pour your purchase price into it again. An old, thirsty twin is rather a special case compared to something like a run-of-the-mill C172 that has been well cared for. You just have to do your pre-buy checks carefully.

[AdamFrisch]

My point was - if it's well cared for, you won't get it for £13K. If it's not, then you'll have to spend it as you go along. You either pay up front, or later, with airplanes. There are no real shortcuts or "good deals" to be had with them. You'll end up paying one way or the other.:{

[Katamarino]

This we can certainly agree on!

[dont overfil]

Quote "Unusual Attitude Is it just me or does that look quite fun? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif"

It's just you! I know your taste!

Just the job to take the family abroad for the weekend.:rolleyes:

D.O.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A question to ask yourself - how often do you expect, really, to fly with the family?

An enjoyable 2-seater on a permit, such as the Luscombe above - or many other possibilities - will for most of us give many hours of inexpensive and enjoyable solo or 2-up flying, then hire something like a C172 for the half dozen hours per year you'll find you actually want a 4-seater.

I would also however agree with those saying "go for a share". Owning around a sixth or eighth share will massively cut your risk and fixed outgoings, and if anything increase the availability compared to spending a lot of your free time looking after a sole-owned asset.

G

(Owned shares from half to twentieth in 7 aeroplanes, over about 20 years.)

[AdamFrisch]

Am I the only one incapable of distinguishing between Luscombe's and Cessna 120/140's?

[Crash one]

Crash one
I think your attitude to those who maintain C of A aircraft requires a little adjustment, it is not a case of simply throwing your cheque book after the aircraft and being ripped off as your post suggests.

The fact is that no one in the GA maintenance world is making much money (except the CAA) by the time the overheads are covered and the cost of having someone maintain your aircraft be it permit or C of A will be the same for the labour if you are getting a skilled service.



A&C
I am not suggesting that they are all a rip off. Nor did I suggest that it is the org that gets the money. I am well aware that a piece of paper can cost ££££, & CofA approval etc.
What I am suggesting is that the CofA system is far more expensive than the permit system for the same result. I am an engineer (toolmaker) not an aeromech, but I "understand" & will not believe that aeroengineering is any more difficult than "my" kind. The CAA charging vast sums of money to "certify" everything & everybody does not make the actual work carried out any better.

[cockney steve]

like what Ghengis said........ there's a nice-looking Avid on fleabay, right now.

folding wings, trailer, water-cooled Rotax, ground-adjustable prop.....etc.

Take it home, bung it in the garage. realistically, 1 hour to reassemble and pre-flight once you get to your aerodrome.

all sounds good to me and would leave a healthy margin for 4-seater rental.

(and who's to say the rest of the family would want to accompany you?- been there with the boating job, good thing it was small/light enough for solo use! )

[peterh337]

One may not fly with "the family" often but flying with others massively enhances the enjoyment of flying.

[Pilot DAR]

What I am suggesting is that the CofA system is far more expensive than the permit system for the same result.

Crash One,

Though I see the point you are trying to make, the "result" is not the same...

Remind yourself that your C of A'd aircraft with the G on the side, is entitled by ICAO agreement to fly just about anywhere on earth. Now I understand that this international recognition is of greatly reduced interest to many "permit" type aircraft owners, and that IS the distinction that everyone needs to be aware of.

I'm sure that from the UK, reaching many other nations in a GA aircraft is a practical possibility. Here in Canada, for 99% of GA aircraft its Canada, USA, and for a few, some Carribean islands, or Central America. Thus, in Canada, many aircraft owners (with eligible types) will surrender their C of A for a flight permit, and a more simple "system". In Canada, it's called "Owner Maintenance". I have one of my two aircraft entering this category now. But doing so strips it's international acceptance, and I have no expectation this aircraft will ever be welcomed into another nation.

That is simply because that other nation has no idea to what standard that aircraft is maintained, and has no international obligation to accept it. When you maintain an aircraft within the ICAO system, you're paying for it (in layers of paperwork, and mandatory inspections), but you're retaining a privilage of international acceptance. It's up to the owner to understand the difference in systems....

[Crash one]

Pilot Dar
I take your point ref same result. All I was saying is that you have an a/c that is acceptably serviceable under both systems depending on what you want to do with it. If the OP wants to fly as cheaply as possible then, as I stated in my first post, VFR daytime may be ok. I am sorry I did not mention UK airspace only. But if the OP wishes to investigate the LAA, it's aims, functions, restrictions etc then it may be enough for him. LAA Permit a/c are being accepted in parts of europe & the LAA are trying to improve on that. But I agree there are restrictions ref the rest of the world, public transport, aerial work etc.
I am also well aware that the paper pile has to weigh about the same as the a/c. Which is where most of the cost comes from.

[funfly]

I have owned three aircraft and owned them totally myself 'cos that's my way.
BUT...even if you can afford it I would recommend sharing the damn thing with another for moral support, there is nothing so lonely as trying to sort out aircraft things on your own. Someone to talk to, to discuss things with and to share decisions is worth a thousand words from others.

[Crash one]

I have owned three aircraft and owned them totally myself 'cos that's my way.
BUT...even if you can afford it I would recommend sharing the damn thing with another for moral support, there is nothing so lonely as trying to sort out aircraft things on your own. Someone to talk to, to discuss things with and to share decisions is worth a thousand words from others.

I would certainly go along with that sentiment. When the thing backfired once & created a fire on the ground I was lucky enough at the time to be surrounded by people who let me know! Usually I am alone & at this time mine is the only aircraft on the strip. Start with the brakes off & move at least twice it's length immediately & turn to have a look, door locked open, not strapped in. I wouldn't like to share cos I like to go when it suits me, or leave it up on bricks US as long as I need to.

[Ultra long hauler]

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Hi guys,
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interesting thread, this!
Thought I´d give you guys my perspective, albeit from an entirely different country / situation!
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I am member of a club, of which the mechanic is very knowleagable and helpful when it comes to repairs & advice with regards to spare parts etc. He must know all the US spare-part sites on the internet because he always finds the weirdest links to check valves, brake cilinders, adjustable prop parts, noise filters etc etc, you name it; and for decent prizes!
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Being club members we do help each other sometimes when it comes to bringing stuff in from the U.S for instance; or even borrowing parts from each other when the one plane isn´t going anywhere, anyways! For instance, recently I lent my radiator to a fellow member, just for a 2 day trip.
We are all Rotax-powered, you see.........
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I agree that it would be lonely to do it all “on my Todd” so to speak; I for one, greatly appreciate all the advice I can get!

Assuming no regulatory road blocks it is wonderful for everybody to have their very own aircraft and to work together to keep all of them flying and beautiful.

Good fences make good neighbors.


I agree with this wholeheartedly! At our club, we all have and run our own planes; why? Because it´s still SO affordable where we are!
I guess some people share larger Cessna´s etc here, but as far as the LSA go; they are all privately owned.
For US$ 2,- a US gallon of fuel you can still go places, and you can actually pick up an airframe and maintain it up to the authorities´ standards for not that much at all; relatively speaking.
And then the hundreds of little airfields we can choose from, but that is for another thread.
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If your budget is an issue, (and I know mine would be, in the UK!!) by all means share!
Share the burden, share the headaches............and plan your trips well, considering* your fellow comrades` needs!
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I personally love the fact that I own an aircraft! She´s my baby, the mechanic finished it all in my taste, I´m still taking plenty of pictures each trip, and I´m not done kitting her out completely just yet! (Slipper clutch is next on the list, for instance).
Are their better aircraft out there? Sure! But this one happens to be mine, it fulfills all my flying-needs and that gives me a satisfaction that I don´t think I would get renting or sharing.
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If you can afford it........having your own plane is really a pretty cool thing!
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Cheers from down South somewhere,
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###Ultra Long Hauler###