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LexAir
27th Jun 2012, 23:12
I recently became aware of yet another example of CASA stupidity. It would seem that CASA is threatening to prosecute a GA operator for breaching copyright in CASA product.

The breach in question? This operator is alleged to have downloaded a copy of the DAY VFR syllabus from the CASA web site to a USB and then handed it to one of its students for use during training. CASA have threatened to sue for making "an unauthorised copy".

The stupidity leaves one speechless.:confused:

Jabawocky
27th Jun 2012, 23:55
If this is 100% accurate, and please be 100% sure, to protect yourself, name and shame should work well.

CASA are trying to encourage electronic delivery, printing and selling is not their business.

Promoting safety is.

I surely hope you are wrong...... :uhoh:

training wheels
28th Jun 2012, 02:04
This operator is alleged to have downloaded a copy of the DAY VFR syllabus from the CASA web site to a USB and then handed it to one of its students for use during training. CASA have threatened to sue for making "an unauthorised copy".

That sounds a little strange. As Jabba has pointed out, CASA has always supported the download of their materials. If not, why then make it downloadable in both PDF and RTF format?

And this is from the CASA website on the VFR Day syllabus section (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:565914615:pc=PC_90013), quote;

"The syllabus is provided in adobe acrobat and rich text format (RTF). The latter allows extracts of the syllabus to be downloaded and incorporated into a school's operations manual and/or own training syllabus. "

Arm out the window
28th Jun 2012, 02:11
The impression I get from my limited understanding of the Kiwi scene is that their CAA operate from a position of 'we'll work with you to get the job done safely', promoting education, fostering the passing on of good gen and so on (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Kiwis).

On the other hand, it seems our guys are hell bent on not developing a good working relationship of mutual respect with the aviation community at all, but setting up an adversarial 'them and us' situation. Why, I don't know.

Sure, there are roadshows and all that jazz, but the mistrust that has built up between CASA and the aviating person on the street seems very, very strong.

I would dearly love to see CASA move away from this legislative, corporate monster they appear to be at the moment and become a fair-dinkum mentoring and facilitating organisation, leading from the front as far as safety and standards go. I see this starting with a strong push to work with the flying schools and be involved right from the word go in every pilot's development as a believable and approachable group of experts who know what they're talking about and don't hide behind a smoke screen of legalese.

They still need to carry the big stick and take strong action where it's required (as apparently didn't happen in the Hempel case, discussed at length elsewhere), but with that, set the example to operators by being at pains to show they are on the same side as legitimate business and private aviators who want to do it right.

I may be going off half-cocked here if the thing about the Day VFR syllabus isn't true. If it is, then whoever at CASA is driving the pursuit needs a kick up the arse.

blackhand
28th Jun 2012, 02:33
Lexair - yes there is stupids here. And not in CASA.

training wheels
28th Jun 2012, 02:41
Lexair - yes there is stupids here. And not in CASA.

..and with a posting such as that, I tend to agree .. :rolleyes:

Lodown
28th Jun 2012, 02:53
I would dearly love to see CASA move away from this legislative, corporate monster they appear to be at the moment and become a fair-dinkum mentoring and facilitating organisation, leading from the front as far as safety and standards go. I see this starting with a strong push to work with the flying schools and be involved right from the word go in every pilot's development as a believable and approachable group of experts who know what they're talking about and don't hide behind a smoke screen of legalese.

They still need to carry the big stick and take strong action where it's required (as apparently didn't happen in the Hempel case, discussed at length elsewhere), but with that, set the example to operators by being at pains to show they are on the same side as legitimate business and private aviators who want to do it right.


Off subject, but the FAA got in all kinds of problems a number of years ago with just this policy. In supporting the industry, it started turning a blind eye to some of the problems. Took a big stick and a change of procedure to get it back to doing its job.

Jabawocky
28th Jun 2012, 03:20
AOTW = Nail on HEAD! :ok:

Arm out the window
28th Jun 2012, 07:35
Sure, Lodown, I can see there would be the possibility of things getting too 'matey' depending on personalities and individual integrity.

It's a complex issue, of course, but the current climate of mistrust, blame and double standards feels all wrong.

How to fix it is another story - big root-and-branch changes could only come with sufficient political will, and I doubt there's enough votes in it to make ministers sit up and take notice, even when aeroplanes crash. There's a bit of media frenzy for a while, then we return to the status quo.

Creampuff
28th Jun 2012, 09:19
I call BS, LexAir.

“Prosecution” for breach of copyright? Yeah right. :rolleyes:

Being “sued” for breach of copyright? Maybe. But for downloading “a copy” – one copy – of the VFR Day Syllabus? Give me a break. :=

What’s the real story, LexAir?

BTW everybody else: The ‘dual mandate’ has been debated to death – literally – a long time ago.

gobbledock
28th Jun 2012, 10:37
Could be worse. People could have been dowloading the pony pooh below?
(Sorry Blackhand, I know you have an autographed copy!)

Bibliographic information

Title: Law and Sorcery in Papua New Guinea: A Reconsideration of the Relationship Between Law and Custom
Author: Jonathan Aleck
Publisher: Australian National University, 1996
Length: 1108 pages
Subjects: Law
Law and Magic

blackhand
28th Jun 2012, 11:12
I tend to agree .. :rolleyes:
Well that makes three of us, for even getting involved in this bull****tee about copyright on something you are invited to download and use.

Jabawocky
28th Jun 2012, 11:41
Creamie and co. I refer to my first post......I seriously doubt this has legs. Surely not.

If it does......there is no hope! :uhoh:

There must be a lot more to the story. As much as I will criticise the CASA where it is being crazy, this if at all possible would take the cake, and it just sounds too far fetched.

le Pingouin
28th Jun 2012, 13:22
It's one thing to download, another altogether to charge for the service perhaps?

AEROWASP
29th Jun 2012, 01:12
My guess is; and it is only a guess,that the operator might have been SELLING the syllabus to their clients.....that would be a breach if the Day VFR Syllabus was included in a package they were selling to their clients!:uhoh:

Clearedtoreenter
29th Jun 2012, 02:23
My guess is; and it is only a guess,that the operator might have been SELLING the syllabus to their clients..

Sounds more likely. Another thing they might be a bit upset about is uncontrolled out of date copies of their docs out there. They might just be saying that the only source for their docs should be directly from their website. I mean, just imagine if someone was using a syllabus downloaded a couple of months ago, that did not refer to (say) the latest incredibly important CTAF changes?:ooh:

Same thing happens even with SBs and ADs... Sometimes they change a date or something minor without necessarily adding an A or letting us know about amendment .01 to the doc and if you are using the one you downloaded yesterday.... These days we need our iPads permanently with us going instantly back to the source.:)

gobbledock
1st Jul 2012, 04:52
What about downloading pictures of The Skull in his friday hawaiin shirts and distributing them to pubs to place on dart boards? Is that illegal?

thorn bird
1st Jul 2012, 06:41
I use his picture down on the range as a target.:E
Shrink recommended it for anger management..:}

LeadSled
2nd Jul 2012, 15:44
Folks,
Leave poor Jonathan alone, he has, in fact, some first class law qualifications, quite apart from his PhD. He's a better lawyer than a lot of you blokes give him credit for --- and, at least, he is not anti-aviation.

A PhD is not easily obtained in any filed, it represents a lot of hard work and effort.

Maybe it's even a bit more relevant to the job than a well know techead in Dept, of Communications (or whatever it is properly called) whose' recent PhD is, so I am informed, in something to do with marine biology.

Tootle pip!!

Greedy
3rd Jul 2012, 04:57
Leadsled,
Yes Jonathon is so well educated in law and common sense that he provides information labelled "repcon material" and identifies the sender to the company concerned!
Sack the man.
Greedy

VH-XXX
3rd Jul 2012, 07:25
If that happened greedy that is a SERIOUS concern!

That's the type of problem you get when you have people working for certain government departments that are mates with those out in he industry running the companies that are supposed to be being monitored by said department!

blackhand
3rd Jul 2012, 07:50
Yes Jonathon is so well educated in law and common sense that he provides information labelled "repcon material" and identifies the sender to the company concerned!
I suggest you send your evidence to ATSB as this is an offence.

Greedy
3rd Jul 2012, 08:14
Blackhand,
Been there (to the ATSB). They state that because I chose to provide information to CASA it is not protected by "Repcon Legislation". CASA maintains the same stance.
No what the basis in law the behaviour of Aleck,CASA, the CASA ICC, is a disgrace.The corrupt disclosure of information is a blight on all of them.
A young person in this industry would be wise to not report their company seniors in any internal or external SMS system.
Greedy

blackhand
3rd Jul 2012, 10:17
Thanks Greedy
That is certainly important difference in reporting direct to CASA rather than to ATSB.

Cheers

Up-into-the-air
4th Jul 2012, 10:44
A PhD is not easily obtained in any field, it represents a lot of hard work and effort.True, but as a friend of mine put:

BS Bachelor BS

MS Master BS

pHd Piled Higher and ever Deeper

LeadSled
4th Jul 2012, 13:23
Up-Into-Wherever.

Sure your friend isn't the one in your head??

The general level of ignorance throughout the Australian public in general, and the decrying of higher levels of education does Australia in general, and those who make the comments attributable to you "friend" no credit.

Australia is in desperate need of improved educational output, particularly in the hard sciences, we are being left behind by our neighbors and competitors -- to our cost.

I suggest you give some serious thought to the benefits higher education ---- we certainly not over endowed with it in the aviation sector.

Tootle pip!!

Greedy
4th Jul 2012, 22:03
I mostly agree LeadSled, however what is this highly educated workforce going to do?
Reaserch money is very thin on the ground and usually has to be linked to immediate tangible economic return to be approved. We do not design, manufacture or export many products.
In aviation the industry is withering and not really attractive to young would be entrants. IMO it is directed by a hypocritcal, unpredictable, and dysfunctional regulator for the benefit of some dishonest operators at the expense of those who seek to do things properly.
Greedy