Bomber Command Memorial

[endplay]

Don't know if I've missed an existing thread on this but the Telegraph is running a story on a shortfall in the funding of the Bomber Command memorial. Ironic that Robin Gibb died so recently as he would probably have put his hand in his pocket. Anyway, if someone more IT literate than me could post the link there is a website for contributions in the article. My twopenneth is en route to Home - Bomber Command Memorial Appeal (http://www.bombercommand.com)

[Chugalug2]

Here's half a million quid for a start, and it couldn't come from nicer people:
Remove VAT On The Bomber Command Memorial - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/17967)

[ArthurR]

petition signed:
this is the wording on the petition:


Remove VAT On The Bomber Command Memorial

Responsible department: Her Majesty's Treasury

This is a petition to remove the VAT on the bomber command memorial currently payable on professional fees and services, a £500,000 VAT bill has been charged for professional services on the building of this one of a kind memorial, the memorial has been entirely funded by public donations receiving no government aid and no lottery funding, previous governments waived the tax for charities such as the Princess Diana Memorial and the Band Aid single Do They Know It’s Christmas? Sir Elton John’s 1997 charity ­single Candle In The Wind was given a £2.5million exemption, Under the Labour Government charities could claim back VAT for monuments once they had got ­planning permission, in January the Coalition stopped charities reclaiming VAT, which was then hiked to 20 per cent. The Memorial has been running for five years now, with the government constantly moving the goal posts, I believe this to be unfair, do you? If you do please sign.

[Icare9]

.... and more seats on the outrage bus will no doubt be filled by:-
MoD lands veterans with £700,000 bill for ceremony to unveil Bomber Command Memorial | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163012/MoD-lands-veterans-700-000-ceremony-unveil-Bomber-Command-Memorial.html?ito=feeds-newsxml) so the MoD slip out from paying for the security and seating costs because of insufficient funding?????????

[Samuel]

It;s rather better than the back of a Herc don't you agree?

These are some of the RNZAF veterans en-route to the UK in the RNZAF B757. The guy front left is a former 35 Sqn RAF pathfinder and subsequent AVM Sir Rchard Bolt, CAS RNZAF and CDS, NZ and an absolutely super guy.

[Samuel]

It;s rather better than the back of a Herc don't you agree?

These are some of the RNZAF veterans en-route to the UK in the RNZAF B757. The guy front left is a former 35 Sqn RAF pathfinder and subsequent AVM Sir Rchard Bolt, CAS RNZAF and CDS, and an absolutely super guy.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/Shadblat/TheVeteransofBomberCommandflypresidentualclass.jpg

[Wander00]

Anyone know if a Wg Cdr Bill Simpson was there - a Pathfinder, and OC Ops at Watton in the late 60s. He made it the Pathfinder 50th at Wyton, for which I was one of the Project Officers.

[Chugalug2]

What a striking contrast between the attitudes of two Governments. Proper respect and provision accorded to surviving veterans determined to pay homage to their fallen comrades on the one hand, and tight-fisted disdain on the other. Your country is truly blessed, Samuel.
Kia kaha New Zealand!

[Samuel]

I doubt this photo needs any words. En route to Brize. A handshake and respect so evident.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/Shadblat/cockpitchat.jpg

[Chugalug2]

Order of Service here:
http://www.bombercommand.com/order-of-service.pdf
Not a mention of Robin Gibb. Not a sign of him being airbrushed out of the way as a mere "civilian" I hope. He must be properly remembered for without him it would be another 67 years of waiting, and then another...

[Hugh Spencer]

Live coverage of the unveiling on Sky News and BBC News from just before 12 noon BST.

[Al R]

Chuggers, I agree.

I hope the weather holds out for all concerned today - it will surely be the Lancaster's most deferential, poignant and soulful flight.

[Wensleydale]

it will surely be the Lancaster's most deferential, poignant and soulful flight


Not one, but two clean hankies are ironed and ready......

[Pheasant]

Order of Service here:
http://www.bombercommand.com/order-of-service.pdf


Embarrassing typo on P3......no HRH in front of The Duke of Edinburgh!

[Al R]

Live on BBC N24.

BBC iPlayer - Watch Live - BBC News Channel (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/tv/bbc_news24/watchlive)

[aw ditor]

Lanc. has just overflown Wyton at 1145 BST, its' the noise that gets to you!!

[Bollotom]

5 x Tornados over my flat, Hackney, and on their way to Green Park. Lovely sight..and sound.. This has to be an "About time" moment. :cool:

[spekesoftly]

Not a mention of Robin Gibb ...............

Pleasing to see that due recognition was given to Robin Gibb (and many others) by the Chairman of the Bomber Command Association during his introductory speech to the dedication and unveiling ceremony.

[Shackman]

I make no apologies for reposting this - it somehow seems apt for today:

Lie in the dark and listen. It's clear tonight so they're flying high,
Hundreds of them, thousands perhaps, riding the icy, moonlit sky.
Men, machinery, bombs and maps, altimeters and guns and charts,
Coffee, sandwiches, fleece-lined boots, bones and muscles and minds and hearts,
English saplings with English roots deep in the earth they've left below.
Lie in the dark and let them go; Lie in the dark and listen.

Lie in the dark and listen. They're going over in waves and waves
High above villages, hills and streams, country churches and little graves
And little citizen's worried dreams; very soon they'll have reached the sea.
Lie in the dark and let them go, theirs is a world we'll never know.
Lie in the dark and listen. And far below them will lie the bays
And cliffs and sands where they used to be taken for summer holidays.
Lie in the dark and let them go. Theirs is a world we'll never know.
Lie in the dark and listen.

Lie in the dark and listen. City magnates and steel contractors,
Factory workers and politicians, soft hysterical little actors,
Ballet dancers, reserved musicians, safe in your warm civilian beds.
Count your profits and count your sheep, life is passing above your heads,
Just turn over and try to sleep. Lie in the dark and let them go;
There's one debt you'll forever owe,

Lie in the dark and listen.

[Chugalug2]

spekesoftly:
Pleasing to see that due recognition was given to Robin Gibb (and many others) by the Chairman of the Bomber Command Association during his introductory speech to the dedication and unveiling ceremony.
Indeed ss, I too was pleased with that, so full marks to the BCA. Now it is for the RAF to do likewise. I have suggested elsewhere that it might care to dedicate a memorial tablet commemorating the vital role he played in making the BC Memorial become reality. The most fitting location in my view would be at its church at St Clement Danes thus linking that location, where Bomber Harris's statue is, to the Green Park Memorial dedicated to his "Old Lags".

[navstar1]

At long last the respect they deserve. A wonderful memorial and ceremony and unless I missed them not a politician in sight!

[Pittsextra]

Went to Green Park today and was pretty emotional tbh with a wide range of people there.

In fact some the poppies were packed a little tightly which made it pretty exciting too!!

Heroes those men were.

[HectorusRex]

Sadly Bill Simpson passed away in Auckland about 2 years ago.
He was a great mover in the New Zealand Bomber Command Association.
I first met him when he was a Flt Commander on the staff at RAF Halton in the very early 50's.
Regards,
HectorusRex

[Nantucket Sleighride]

Very moving. Good job chaps.
BBC News - Poppies dropped as act of remembrance (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18634283)

[Basil]

Good punchy speech by CAS. I had the temerity to say so to him :O
Tornadoes (Sp?) Time Over Target spot on.
Some amazing, stirring tales by the (too few) old boys we spoke with.
It was a very warm day and they must have been feeling the discomfort.
Air Commodores look much younger than they did when I was in. The lady Air Cdre I mentioned this to did a :rolleyes:

[Shack37]

As is often commented on these boards it got quite dusty today around my television and I've asked Mrs. S37 to take appropriate action.

The simple and quiet dignity with which the ceremony was conducted and the appearances by the veterans left me speechless. I could only watch, listen and reach frequently for the tissues.

[Lima Juliet]

With 50hrs-ish on the BBMF Lanc I can still only sit in awe of the tremendous bravery of these chaps that were just half my age. My own 3-dozen or so op missions on Tornado seem just a walk in the park in comparison. I guess I should count myself lucky that I can relate in the very smallest of ways of what they went through, and when I meet those magnificent men on occasion, offer to buy them a beer, be there to share their story and try to make them feel it was all worth it.

Today is a very special day for me...:D

Lest We Forget...

[barnstormer1968]

I listened to the service on Radio 5 Live.

I think the memorial is definitely needed especially as they said 50.000 'crews' had died..........That's a lot more than we all thought !

What did annoy me is the way that is was talked about as being a controversial memorial. It is very easy in the safe streets of the UK for short memoried folks to say we should not have this item, but I feel none of the detractors would have been born without the efforts of the (be prepared for a word that is not adequate) brave crews who died to give life and safety to a world in crisis.

Sorry for the rant, but I get very angry when commentators mention how these lads killed civilians, while ignoring a rather infamous chap and his pals across the channel who thought chucking folks into ovens and gas chambers was a good idea!!!

In regards to the bomber command lads the sentence that starts "Greater love hath no man" comes to mind, but even more so when you may be scared witless yet still go on raid after raid.

[500N]

"Sorry for the rant, but I get very angry when commentators mention how these lads killed civilians, while ignoring a rather infamous chap and his pals across the channel who thought chucking folks into ovens and gas chambers was a good idea!!!"

As well as lobbing bombs and rockets onto London and other English cities,
a fair amount of which was directly targeting civilians.


I think it is a magnificent memorial and the coverage of the old bomber command boys was great to see and tear jerking.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just watching it now. Very moving.

Thanks for that poem Shackman - not read that before, excellent. I was suprised to learn from the commentator that Prince Philip has over 6,000 hrs in his pilot logbook.

The Guardian manages to be sniffy about the monument in a way that boils blood so effortlessly and efficiently:

Bomber Command memorial (http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2012/jun/24/bomber-command-memorial-london-review)


WWW

[Shack37]

As well as lobbing bombs and rockets onto London and other English cities,
a fair amount of which was directly targeting civilians.

Please, today of all days, let no one take offence but I would like to note that it was not only English cities although they did bear the brunt. Not a rant, not the outrage bus just something I think should be taken on board.

[Samuel]

Kiwi bombers honoured in London - europe - world | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/7191335/Kiwi-bombers-honoured-in-London)

[Chugalug2]

WWW:
The Guardian manages to be sniffy about the monument
Thanks for the link. Frankly I would have not expected much else from it, and no doubt the piece will sit happily on the breakfast tables of much of its readership. But that is surely the point? 55573 good men gave their lives so that Mr Rowan Moore might have the freedom to write such a sneering and loftily superior diatribe. If you don't like what they publish then don't buy the Guardian. Simples!
Unfortunately the same does not go for its broadcasting cousin, the BBC. We are all obliged, if we wish to watch any TV at all, to subsidise its editorial slant. It may not be as explicit as the Guardian but they are both birds of a feather. Either the Beeb should do what it is supposed to, ie be a National Broadcaster, or it should pack it in and hand over the reins to one that is prepared.
Yesterday, just when I was beginning to think, "Well, that didn't go too badly", the Beeb position was spelled out in a talking heads voice over at the conclusion of the unveiling and dedication of the BC Memorial OB:
" Of course, many of the veterans now feel guilty about what they did".
Says who?
Why the Beeb of course, the voice and conscience of our nation.
In its dreams!

[Samuel]

I loved the humility of one gentleman who stated that he had completed 29 trips, not 30 because he was shot down on his 30th and didn't complete it!

[Al R]

www - I would say that the Guardian piece wasn't effortless - that poor scribbly was so incensed, he even ended up having a pop at something on the architect's website. Still, he can justify being out of step with public opinion as a consequence of having the 'niche' view. And it is a niche view - if you look at the Guardian's plummeting circulation figures. To his enlightened mind, he might hold the moral high ground, higher than the Lanc in fact, but he and his increasingly pointless rag are definitely in the weeds as far as the public is concerned.

[Al R]

.. and brothers in arms, literally.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-29/b ... ed/4099744

Two Australian brothers who flew together in the same bomber speak about their experiences.

[EngAl]

Chug
We could talk all day about 2 wrongs don't make a right, etc. But it annoys me when people indulge in a la carte remorse/indignation exemplified by that line

" Of course, many of the veterans now feel guilty about what they did".



We had a very good family friend who died 3 years ago. He was a tank driver with the 4/7 Dragoon Guards and landed in one of the earliest waves on D day and fought through France and Holland. Although he survived there was a shadow over the rest of his life because he had lost his beloved 15 yr old only sister in an air raid on Lowestoft in 1942.

[brakedwell]

I thought I was a hard nosed old bugger, but I have to admit there were tears in my eyes as I watched the ceremony. The bronze statues of the bomber crew are superb, but I do have some misgivings about the size of the gold inscription along the side of the plinth.

[A and C]

As tempted as I am to get involved it the debate about the moral side of this issue I don't think this is the time or place.

Seeing the pictures and reading the report in my electronic issue of the telegraph I can only express my total respect for those in Bomber Command who each time they got into an aircraft faced such long odds.

I also have a lot of respect for those who erected the memorial in the face of opposition from those PC types who have no idea of the price of the fredom that they enjoy.

[Avitor]

At last a fitting memorial. Such a pity those brave men - from all parts of the empire - who as boys gave so much to fight the Nazi cause had to wait so long.

[bosnich71]

I came across this quote a few weeks back,made by a Bomber Command aircrew member in 1944.I think it sums up the bravery of not only aircrew but also all of our predecessors who lived,and sometimes died,during those dark years.

"If you live on the brink of death itself it is as if those who have gone have merely caught an earlier train to the same destination,and whatever that destination is,you will be sharing it soon,since you will almost certainly be catching the next one".

[SOSL]

I watched the ceremony on TV and, not having seen the memorial during its construction, I was pleasantly surprised at its grandeur. Grandeur is what they deserve. Grandeur!

It is also sited in a very special place, in the heart of the capital, which although not alone, suffered so much from Nazi bombing, and on the edge of a beautiful and peaceful green London park (no pun intended).

My own RAF career, as an engineer was spent mostly in 11 group but my Dad, who I loved and admired was, in WW2, a Typhoon pilot. Not Bomber Command but his job was straffeing and rocketing trains and vehicles in Normandy (Opertion Winkle etc) - he was a mud mover.

We owe an enormous debt to the crews of Bomber Command and, in a good way, we owe a debt to Robin Gibb (God rest his soul).

In another strange way it is good that the B Cmd memorial is only a few paces from the RAF Club. There have been many adverse comments about the RAF Club in this forum, but I have experienced the priviledge of knowing and listening to veterans of Bomber Command for many years.


RGDS SOS

[Basil]

I think Rowan Moore, writing in the Guardian is just knocking off a few art critic words to earn his crust. Not really much in the way of PC politics.
"Obliviousness . . . . Its style is amnesiac classical" etc etc. Sounds like the script for a stand-up comedian doing a take-off of Brian Sewell :p

To be fair, this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/28/queen-memorial-bomber-command?INTCMP=SRCH) piece in The Gruadain is pretty even handed.

[WhiteOvies]

I am very glad the memorial has finally been put in place, but sad that my grandfather did not live to see it. Although he survived the war, having flown Lancasters predominantly with 44(Rhodesia) Sqn but also with the Pathfinders and earning a DFC, so many of his friends, colleagues and his brother did not.

A key member of his local RBL he spent his later years talking to school children about what Bomber Command did, trying to ensure that the memory of the sacrifice of all those men was not forgotten or written out of history. A religious man, he wrestled with what he had had to do but we have always been very proud of him.

I have been lucky enough to serve at 2 of his former bases, Cottesmore and Wyton despite being RN, and it always made me smile when we talked and found that at RAF bases some things never change!

We will remember them, with pride, for the courage they showed and the lives they gave.

[goudie]

I had a friend, who flew Halifaxes. Having had an engine shot up and some of the crew injured, he struggled back to his home airfield but undershot the runway, all the crew survived although he was hospitalised. It was his 11th mission and he never flew operationally again.
I once asked him if he'd ever fancied a civilian flying career after the war.
''Good God no old chap,'' he replied, ''far too bloody dangerous!''

As an aside, I'd never heard of Rowan Moore until now. I will make it a point of instantly forgetting him and his pointless drivel.

[Molemot]

Allow me to recommend the best television programme I have yet seen on the bomber offensive. It is "Who Betrayed the Bomber Boys?" and is broadcast by the Yesterday channel. Essential viewing.

[1066]

I was fortunate to be in Green Park yesterday. Not near the BC Memorial itself but in the Salute Area, with a big screen, next to Constitution Hill. Total attending within the security cordon was around 6000. A shame that the BBC didn't show a shot of the Salute Area. It would have been more indicative of the level of support for the Memorial than only showing the big wigs and a few selected veterans at the Memorial site.
I endorse all the other supportive comments above re yesterday.
A big special thanks must go to all the UAS guys and girls who did a splendid job as stewards, especially handing out bottles and cups of water to all those in the Salute Area. Given the overcast conditions earlier in the day many, including me and mrs 1066, were surprised how hot it was when the skies cleared, as you can see in the shots of the flypasts. We spoke to some of them and all were volunteers and thrilled to be taking part in such a special event. I believe most of the BC crews were VR, so how appropriate for VR members of the UASs to be in attendance.
I was there as a member of the BCA. I started my 'productive' flying as a Plt Off co-pilot on the Bomber Command Bombing School at Lindholme. The clue is in my 'handle'. My first station commander was a DFC with pathfinder wings. I served under 2 flt cdrs who had completed bomber tours as well as flying with other pilots and flight engineers with similar backgrounds. One of my uncles was an O navigator on Wellingtons with 99 and 462. Unusual for a Brit to be on an Aussie sqn. His pilot from 99 became a flt cdr on 462 and requested that he be allowed to join 462.
The old boy across the road was WOp/AG, Whitleys!! then Wellingtons with 115. Ditched twice, shot down over Holland then POW.
Enough said as to why I joined the BCA and wanted to be there yesterday.
Well done to the small BCA staff, Malcom White, Doug Radcliffe, Vivienne Hammer et al. None of them deserved the abuse that came their way after the Mail article re vets and vets families not being allocated tickets for the unveiling. The deadline to apply for tickets was put back twice as an attempt to accommodate late applications.
A day that has come too late but in the end a fitting tribute to the fallen of Bomber Command.
1066

[November4]

and more from the Gaurdrain (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/29/bomber-command-memorial-artistic-jingoism?newsfeed=true)


The artistic jingoism of the Bomber Command memorial

This architecturally crass pavilion is like the nervously loud voice of someone trying to shout down opposition

[Basil]

1066,
Agreed. The UAS, the Cranwell cadets and everyone looking after us was extremely smartly turned out, polite and attentive. There was even a Wg Cdr medic helping with water supplies and guidance.

Anyone know if "Who Betrayed the Bomber Boys?" is going to be broadcast again?

[pontifex]

1066

I was there too and I concur with everything you said. The organisation was faultless, the weather perfect (although I got a touch of the sun). The only complaint I heard was that the poppies landed to the right of the crowd. Even one or two of the vets had trouble in understanding crosswind and the unfortunate requirement to stay so high. Not like that in my day!

[cornish-stormrider]

Damn fine memorial for a damn fine bunch of men.
It's days like these that make me proud to have (in my own teeny weeny spanner wielding way) in such an organisation.

Full of leaders, heroes, ordinary blokes just doing what needed to be done.
I don't intend to lower this post as to thoughts about the PC nowadays.

Forget em?? not on my watch.
With planning and precision my first born will be here in november and his first event will be rememberance sunday. I intend to start him young in the sacrifices made that he can choose to speak german should he wish.

God speed to all, to all those having left this life behind - hope the beer is cold, the skies clear and the troops stood down....

[Wander00]

Just watched a recording of the pogramme - I was out yesterday. The Memorial is brilliant, and the programme pretty well done too. I met many veterans in 1992 when I was involved in the Pathfinders 50th Anniversary - I hope some of them were there yesterday - to all of those that survived and those that sadly did not - Thank you - we WILL remember you. Lot of dust in the air here.........

[Guzlin Adnams]

I couldn't make it yesterday which was a great shame.
Having had the privilege of meeting many Bomber Command aircrew, particularly those that served in 3 Group at Chedburgh, Stradishall and Mildenhall, most of which have now departed us and reside with their old friends, I felt very humbled. There was an ex Halifax crew menber on Radio Suffolk yesterday morning who was too ill to attend the ceremony. If only I'd known, I'd have taken him down, pushed his wheelchair, shook his hand warmly and said thanks as those poppies dropped.
There was a lot of dust in the air near me yesterday. Thankyou and well done to all concerned, this country isn't all bad is it.

[TyroPicard]

I have not yet seen the memorial, but I thought that Rowan Moore's article in The Observer (not quite The Grauniad, but a nice distinction) was quite thought-provoking.
Compare and contrast the ease with which some posters dismiss the killing of innocent civilians then, with the modern approach to avoiding "collateral damage" in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I think we might have moved on a little in seventy years...

[endplay]

The relevant paragraph of the "Few" speech. Without detriment to the Battle of Britain Fighter pilots, the praise in Churchill's speech is surely directed at the Bomber crews. Judge for yourself:

The gratitude of every home in our Island, in our Empire, and indeed throughout the world, except in the abodes of the guilty, goes out to the British airmen who, undaunted by odds, unwearied in their constant challenge and mortal danger, are turning the tide of the World War by their prowess and by their devotion. Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. All hearts go out to the fighter pilots, whose brilliant actions we see with our own eyes day after day; but we must never forget that all the time, night after night, month after month, our bomber squadrons travel far into Germany, find their targets in the darkness by the highest navigational skill, aim their attacks, often under the heaviest fire, often with serious loss, with deliberate careful discrimination, and inflict shattering blows upon the whole of the technical and war-making structure of the Nazi power. On no part of the Royal Air Force does the weight of the war fall more heavily than on the daylight bombers, who will play an invaluable part in the case of invasion and whose unflinching zeal it has been necessary in the meanwhile on numerous occasions to restrain.

I occasionally play golf with an 86 year old ex tail gunner who will have a pint on me next time we meet.

[Chugalug2]

TP:
Compare and contrast the ease with which some posters dismiss the killing of innocent civilians then, with the modern approach to avoiding "collateral damage" in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I think we might have moved on a little in seventy years...
29th Jun 2012 16:10
Which posters are you referring to, TP? I haven't noticed them. WWII was total war. The technology of the time could, just about, get a loaded bomber over an enemy city at night, for unescorted daylight missions even for the heavily armed USAAF were essentially one way. Having got there the only realistic target for Main Force was the city itself. There may well have been an aiming point; marshalling yards, docks, whatever, but the resultant bomb fall would have straddled the city and the countryside beyond. Even at the end, with all the additional technical aids available, that remained the case. Harris bombed cities because he could. He didn't bomb precision targets (with Main Force) because he couldn't.
The "little" that we have moved forward in 70 years is down to technology. If Harris had then what we have now then the "Panacea" targets would have been realistic targets. He didn't, so they weren't.
The RAF Bombing Campaign was a major factor in winning the War in Europe. If we had conducted it "avoiding collateral damage" it would have had to be conducted by day. That would not have worked because:
1. The daylight skies were full of USAAF bombers and escorts who also destroyed cities, and
2. Harris would not have had a Command left within months
I would in contrast rather note the ease with which those such as Mr Moore can reorganise a war which, luckily for him and for me, we won thanks in part to Bomber Command Aircrew. If he had actually directed it, I would have to end this post by wishing you, "Heil Hitler", or whatever!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I note today The Guardian has decided to up the ante in its contempt for the memorial with a new piece:


The artistic jingoism of the Bomber Command memorial | Jonathan Jones | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/29/bomber-command-memorial-artistic-jingoism)

The architectural crassness of Liam O'Connor's pavilion is like the nervously loud voice of someone trying to shout down opposition.


It mystifies me how anyone can look at that beautiful structure and that beautiful ceremony and its beautiful sentiment and then sit down to criticise and carp about it. Sigh.

One can take some comfort from reading the comments left below the piece. Overwhelmingly they decry the author, his views and the publisher for printing them whilst praising the memorial itself.


WWW

[Chugalug2]

From Jonathan Jones's Grauniad piece:
If the memorial in Green Park seems strident and hysterical in design
It doesn't JJ, you do
Did massive air raids on German cities help to end the war more quickly?
Yes, but more importantly they helped to end the war with victory for the Allies rather than for the Axis Powers.
The architectural crassness of Liam O'Connor's pavilion is like the nervously loud voice of someone trying to shout down opposition.

Even a monstrous bunker as built by the Organisation Todt could never drown out opposition from the likes of you Mr Jones. It is your right to oppose that these 55573 men fought and died for. Their surviving colleagues seem well pleased with the Memorial and that is good enough for me. On the other hand that you are not is of supreme indifference.
Thanks again for the link WWW. I think that Mr Jonathon Jones has told us more about himself and the sheltered life that he leads than he has about the BC Memorial, Harris, Bomber Command, or its Aircrew.

[Wander00]

Always thought the Guardian fit only for wrapping fish and chips - this guy confirms it, and the editor for printing it

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Nah! Loathsome publication - fish 'n chips far too good for it. It has only ONE useful purpose and that's only in the event of a total collapse of supplies of Andrex....

[Samuel]

Just look at the faces of these very ordinary Kiwis who, as very young men went out night after night. This trip to the UK can't have been easy for them, even with the help provided. Their ages range from mid 80s to mid 90s. They are no different really from a group of Englishmen, or Australians, or Canadians, but they opted to be there and that says heaps to me. They are a part of a bunch of young guys the like of which we will probably never see again. Not my generation, but I have enormous respect for all of them. Mind you, it's just as well they landed at Brize; had they gone to Heathrow they would have been directed to the Aliens gate!

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/Shadblat/DSC06619.jpg

[Bismark]

Before I respond to the above comments on the Jones article may I say that my father flew in Bomber command and was decorated for his achievements. i also contributed financially to the memorial in his memory.

I found the Jones piece to be a fair comment. There is no doubt the veterans will be well pleased with such a grand monument to the past glory and memory. BUT why has it been built where it is and on such a grand scale. The cynic would say that it more to say about the current perceptions of the RAF about themselves and that it is adjacent to the RAF Club....but let's not be cynical.

I can think of no other recent example of a memorial being built on such a scale other than the main memorial at the National Arboretum. The BC memorial too grand, in an odd place (Green Park is supposed to be devoid of memorials) and contrasts badly with the adjacent Wellington Arch. The central sculpture is outstanding but why was it not placed at Alrewas?

Returning to my cynicism I find it interesting that most recent military memorials in London have been of RAF making (Bomber command, Park (next to The Athenaeum Club) and Battle of Britain (on the embankment)). The only other recent military memorials have been much smaller in scale - The Tank Regiment (opp Liberal Club), The Ghurka (opp MoD) and Fleet Air Arm (outside MoD). All relatively small statements but with equal meaning and emotion to the veterans as the most recent monstrosity.

[Shack37]

Why so much agonising over the BC Memorial? Surely all that is required is to answer the following questions.
Is it a deserved tribute to those who died during and since those operations and the survivors who become fewer by the month? YES
Is it long overdue? YES
Is it ostentatious and expensive compared to the price paid by those it commemorates? NO

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the right to express it. Those remembered at the BC Memorial played no small part in safeguarding those rights for the intellectuals now criticising that Memorial.

[Bismark]

Shack,

Is it ostentatious and expensive compared to the price paid by those it commemorates?

A rather meaningless question. Size and scale are about aesthetics not the memory. The central sculpture on its own would be sufficient to represent the sacrifice and be in keeping with other recent memorials in London.

Nobody is doubting the courage and sacrifice, not even Mr Jones, but they are questioning the actual monument.

[Shack37]

Bismark

A rather meaningless question. Size and scale are about aesthetics not the memory. The central sculpture on its own would be sufficient to represent the sacrifice and be in keeping with other recent memorials in London.


We must agree to disagree on this one Bismark. I can only say that for me there is nothing distasteful about this memorial which is what you imply by the use of the word aesthetics.

[Chugalug2]

Bismark, I'm at a loss to understand what you are getting at here. Do you think that the RAF Fighter Command and the RAF Bomber Command Memorials, which represent respectively preventing being invaded by, and ensuring victory over Hitler (as with Nelson and Wellington against Napoleon), should have been tidied away to Alrewas, should not have been built at all, or built but on a much smaller scale? I'm the first to admit that any or none of those options might appeal to some and that it is all a matter of opinion, but much the same might well have been said of Nelson's Column, the Wellington Arch, Waterloo Bridge(!), or umpteen others.
I think that a loss rate exceeding 50% resulting in the loss of 55573 volunteers is a big thing, that what they achieved for this country and indeed for many other countries is a big thing, and that a suitably big and central memorial to commemorate that sacrifice is appropriate.
I quite like its aesthetics as well, but no doubt that says more about me than it does about the BC Memorial.

[Bismark]

Chug,

You are right, it is a matter of personal opinion. Unlike the monuments you mention the BC and BoB memorials, whilst grand are in odd, insignificant places and not in any form of context. The design of the BC memorial in particular is out of scale with its surroundings and unnecessarily large.

In addition it was the policy in London not to erect any more large memorials in central London and is why the national memorial to those who have died on active service since the war is at Alrewas. It is also why there was such strong local objection to the memorial being placed in Green Park and it had to be forced through Westminster Council. The only reason I can see why the memorial is where it is is due to ihe proximity of the RAF Club.

[Chugalug2]

Have you any idea how insulting your words are, Bismark? I know that "It's only banter, Old Boy" is now the retort to any slight taken, but if I were to say that Nelson's column is totally out of scale to the surrounding buildings, that the only reason that it is there is its proximity to the Admiralty, that his statue alone would have been quite sufficient on its own, then I would be guilty of gross insensitivity, without any concern for the feelings of the Senior Service.
The RAF is the junior Service as we are forever being reminded. We are proud of its record in WWII which historically rates on a par with the threat posed to this nation by Napoleonic France. Our architectural tastes may not be to your liking but credit us at least with rather more than the crassness that you suggest by implying that we prefer our memorials to be within staggering distance of the Club Bar!

[PPRuNe Pop]

I must draw your attention to just ONE fact - there are many others!

That picture of Kiwi's in front of the memorial represents, collectively, hundreds of operations over Germany from which they came back. BUT.............each one of them was no doubt thinking of their comrades - ALL 55,573 of them, who didn't come back.

Remember too that EACH one who served in Bomber Command was a volunteer.

I WILL also add that I am of an age when we suffered the bombing of this country, some were very close! I well recall the annoucements on the radio that our bombers had been returning (with interest) what they were dishing out here. We in this country and many others owe a great debt to the RAF fighters and bombers for saving us from a fate worse than anything you could imagine.

[DX Wombat]

I have just watched tonight's ITV programme. I am fortunate enough to have met many wonderful RAF veterans at Project Propeller and am always impressed by their quiet dignity, wonderful sense of humour but also their humility - never a word about what they did but only too ready to spill the beans about their colleagues usually prefaced by something along the lines of "You see him (in one particular case a Squadron Leader with the DFM) you should know about him and what he did". There then follows the tale of the person's activities. All quietly proud of their achievements but never a hint of boasting. At the end of the programme each veteran contributor gave his name, rank, position in the crew and number of missions flown. I was absolutely stunned as the numbers increased as the list of contributors continued, surely, I thought as one Rear Gunner said he had flown on 48 missions but had been shot down on the 48th, surely there can't be anyone with a higher total. I was wrong, very, very wrong. The penultimate crew member was also a Rear Gunner with an amazing 80, yes, EIGHTY missions. His total was only surpassed by a pilot with 81. I have the highest respect and admiration for all of the crews. Thank you seems such a small thing to say but I mean it and I'll be back to help with PP next year having been ill and unable to do so this year. One day out of my life helping at PP is a tiny expression of my thanks for what they did.
PPP I believe the NZ Veterans were all flown over free of charge, in Club Class, by the NZ Government.

[Samuel]

PPP I believe the NZ Veterans were all flown over free of charge, in Club Class, by the NZ Government.

Not quite, but close! They flew on an RNZAF B757 which just happens to have a VIP section with very nice seats, but yes, it was free courtesy of the NZ Veterans Affairs Dept.

[Samuel]

Our architectural tastes may not be to your liking but credit us at least with rather more than the crassness that you suggest by implying that we prefer our memorials to be within staggering distance of the Club Bar!

I think the suggestion that the Proximity of the RAF Club to the BC Memorial has a connection is pulling a very long bow!

[Bismark]

Chug et al,

I am not disparaging the memory of those who were part of BC or the need for a memorial. I remind you that my father was a decorated member of BC and I have contributed to the funding of a memorial. All I am commenting on is the architectural significance and location of the memorial and my view is that it is too big and in the wrong place.

[Case One]

All I am commenting on is the architectural significance and location of the memorial and my view is that it is too big and in the wrong place.

Maybe, but how much longer would sorting that out have delayed things? I think they've waited long enough. I'm very pleased that some veterans are still alive to see it. Perhaps it's not perfect (what is), but it's there.

[Chugalug2]

Bismark:
... location of the memorial and my view is that it is too big and in the wrong place.
I would suggest that the location of the BC Memorial is more to do with those of other recent WWI/II Memorials located at Hyde Park Corner or nearby:
The Australian War Memorial, The New Zealand War Memorial and the Constitution Hill Memorial Gates (representing India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Africa and the Caribbean)
Given the high preponderance of Commonwealth personnel that served with Bomber Command, I cannot but think their close proximity to be very appropriate.
It would have been wonderful of course to have the centre of an entire London Square to place it, but a certain other Service got there first! Whether the Memorial gates and the BC Memorial were designed to exploit their parkland setting as well I leave to those better qualified than I. They work for me though, for what it's worth.
As to the Fighter Command Memorial, it shares the Embankment with the nearby Royal Air Force Memorial, both close to the old Air Ministry Building better known now as MOD Main Building. Both front the Thames, the obvious navigational feature for single seat fighters. Again as appropriate a site as any in London in my view.
Battle of Britain London Monument - Site for the Battle of Britain Monument (http://www.bbm.org.uk/thesite.htm)
A central London site was donated by Westminster City Council for the Monument. The site is based on an existing panelled granite structure 25 metres long. This structure was originally designed as a smoke outlet for underground trains when they were powered by steam engines. It had been filled up and blocked for many years.
It seems it size was determined by Victorian railway engineers!

[Chugalug2]

From my MP:
Dear Chug,
Thank you for contacting me about the Bomber Command Memorial.
I welcomed Her Majesty the Queen's unveiling of this Memorial. It is a fitting tribute dedicated, as you note in your email, to the tens of thousands of brave airmen who died in the Second World War.
I understand from Treasury officials that the Government spent over £1.5 million on the event, including a Ministry of Defence contribution of resources at a cost of £375,000 to commemorate the 55,573 aircrew of RAF Bomber Command who paid the ultimate sacrifice during the Second World War.
After months of planning and support to the Bomber Command Association, six RAF aircraft and some 200 RAF personnel were involved on the day. This is in addition to the £1 million contribution to cover VAT and the £200,000 cash support promised by the Government towards the additional costs of the unveiling ceremony.
I believe it is right and proper that we recognise the unique contribution and sacrifice that the men of Bomber Command made to protect Great Britain during the Second World War and ensure democratic freedom.
As a final point, I would like to add my congratulations to those of the Secretary of State for Defence, who praised the volunteers that made this memorial a reality.
I am grateful for your taking the time to contact me and please never hesitate to get back in touch if I can be of any further assistance on this issue or any other.

My reply:
Thank you for your prompt reply to my request that ALL the VAT charged for the Bomber Command Memorial and ALL the security costs involved in the Dedication ceremony, attended by HM The Queen, should be met by HMG. It is all very well for HM Treasury to quote large sums of public money they contend have already been expended to date, their inference seems to be that the Veterans should pay the very considerable difference.
Would the present government have had the same attitude had it been in power 1939-45? Would they have told these same men, then extremely young, that it had already expended a great amount on the munitions being dropped nightly on the Reich, and it was now up to the crews to pay up as well? I do not think that the contrast is so extreme, for both expenditures are the moral responsibility of HMG on behalf of this Nation, then fighting for survival, and now presumably grateful for having survived thanks to those who did not survive. HM Treasury may not have a sense of moral obligation, HMG I think should, for it governs in our name. It should refund ALL the VAT and pay for ALL the Security Costs of the Unveiling and Dedication of the Bomber Command Memorial now!
Yours sincerely,
Chug
Contact your MP now at WriteToThem - Email or fax your Councillor, MP, MEP, MSP or Welsh, NI, London Assembly Member for free (http://www.writetothem.com/)
Make a fuss now and so save these courageous gentlemen needless worry.

PS Already posted on the "BBC snubs BC Memorial" thread as I got the two confused. No, honestly Mods, I really did!

[pr00ne]

Went to look at the thing for myself today. The actual sculptures inside the building are a lovely piece of art and quite moving, and I believe quite appropriate in scale.
The building? A hideous monument that would be more fitting on the drive of a palatial Essex home with it's mock plastic Greek columns and portico, what were they thinking?

Compare and contrast to the simply stunning, in style, tone, feel and appearance, FAA statue outside Main Building facing the river.

[jindabyne]

Prat - again!

[November4]

Went to see the Memorial on Weds. I was surprised by the number of people viewing the Memorial and even more surprised by the number of crosses, wreaths, photos and cards that were on the Memorial.

That summed it up for me - the Memorial is there for a purpose and does that perfectly. It might not be everyone's idea of what a memorial should look like, it might be in a "suitable" location for everyone but it serves to remember "the 55,573 airmen from the United Kingdom, British Commonwealth & Allied Nations who served in RAF Bomber Command & lost their lives over the course of the Second War"

http://www.pro-patria.co.uk/BC1.jpg

http://www.pro-patria.co.uk/BC2.jpg

[NutLoose]

I think it looks stunning and plan to visit it at least once.

[oldpusser]

I visited the memorial on Friday and found the statues of the 7 men quite breathtaking. The agony on the face of the man on the right, his fists clenched, his haunted eyes looking down following you - I could only imagine what he must have been through yet here he was stealing himself to go in another mission. Each of the men portrayed where showing such different emotions - with my very limited artistic knowledge I think the sculptor has done an amazing job and the memorial should be recognised for what it is – a memorial to 55573 young men who died way before their time doing their duty for a country that asked them.

[peppermint_jam]

Couldn't agree more nutloose, although I might well pop down to see it more than once.......