Return of Service...is it possible to escape? [Archive]

baffman

21st Jun 2012, 16:47

Conscienstious Objection/give a months notice and walk and see what the EU courts say...

I appreciate not meant to be taken seriously but as this kind of "advice" could be misconstrued, applying to be treated as a conscientious objector does not involve giving a month's notice, and has nothing to do with "the EU courts", whatever they might be.

Back on thread...

Minstral

21st Jun 2012, 16:49

Biggus, if total desperation sets in I'll keep that in mind!

Are there any employment law loop holes that anyone knows of?

lj101

21st Jun 2012, 17:10

Minstral

The change to our military pensions which are being enforced in 2015 may give you an escape loop.

Do get a BA start course date first though.

Tourist

21st Jun 2012, 17:15

How many years short are you, and what do you fly?
I ask, because if it is an aircraft which is overborne, then you might have a better chance.

Do you have a good reason?

A contract is a contract, though I must admit that the latest pension news seems to suggest that the MOD doesn't believe that to be the case.:hmm:

nice castle

21st Jun 2012, 23:14

Nope, there is no way. Anyone that suggests otherwise is stating so from a position of conjecture, not having done so themselves.

Soz.

Tourist

22nd Jun 2012, 06:01

Not true.

If you become member of parliament you can get out. In fact I believe you just have to stand, but don't quote me on that.
A friend of mine did it.

So it is difficult but not impossible.

The CO route will also work.

BEagle

22nd Jun 2012, 06:16

If you started IOT in Oct 2004, you probably wouldn't have finished flying training / OCU much before mid-2006?

Which means you've given what, about 6 years of productive service?

Options would seem somewhat slim. However, 6 years of Groundhog Days in the Great Sandpit would surely stretch anyone's motivation towards the Service...:uhoh:

Duncan D'Sorderlee

22nd Jun 2012, 06:45

IIRC, and you are an officer and LCR; if you get chopped, you will revert to a ground branch RToS ie 3 years vice 6 years. If not, speak to your Deskie and ask - you never know, he/she might cut you a deal.

Duncs:ok:

Red Line Entry

22nd Jun 2012, 07:49

Or you could speak to your Desk Officer - it is what they're there for!

GICASI

22nd Jun 2012, 10:40

Minstral,

The 'contact your Desk officer' is probably good advice. There is a novel way to go the Conchie route, which has nothing to do with killing people and/or breaking their stuff.

The 2008 Climate Change Act imposes legally binding reductions in the UK's greenhouse gas emissions. This is reinforced by the current government's Carbon Floor Pricing scheme, which declares CO2 a pollutant.

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/carbon_price_floor_consultation_govt_response.pdf

A rational case could be made that you have a conscientious objection to your employer polluting the atmosphere with killer plant food. You could also cite that your employer has no means of avoiding this pollution, as its capability depends on burning fossil fuels, leaving you in an impossible moral dilemma.

After you've won, and left, you could have a Damascene conversion in which it was revealed to you that your conscientious objection was based on complete Eco-Taliban bollocks which our muppet politicians have fallen for hook, line and sinker. You could then get a job in an airline.

Well, they 'kin started it.

Ken Scott

22nd Jun 2012, 13:51

Why on earth would anyone wish to leave early.......?

Jayand

22nd Jun 2012, 15:20

Lots of talk of return of service contract, have you seen it, did you sign such a thing?
Mythical beasts some of these "contracts"

teeteringhead

22nd Jun 2012, 17:59

baffman

23rd Jun 2012, 09:29

If you become member of parliament you can get out. In fact I believe you just have to stand, but don't quote me on that. .. used to be (until late 70s??) that just standing worked.

Then many realised a deposit was cheaper than "buying yourself out". So rules changed, and you have to be elected.

Doesn't help the OP, but I don't think that's quite right. Before becoming a parliamentary candidate you have to apply to retire or resign or be granted a free discharge.

Whether your application is granted or not will depend on the exigencies of the service.

Having been allowed to retire etc, an unsuccessful parliamentary candidate has no right of reinstatement - or duty to return, for that matter. See QRs.

PVRhelp

23rd Jun 2012, 17:47

Mate, I recently PVR'd and have been told I must serve my full RofS even though I am not in the job I was training for any more. The deskie was utterly inflexible and things don't look good for me getting out early. Feel free to send me a PM if you want to chat things over.

It does seem strange (idiotic really) that the RAF won't let me go willingly at the same time they are making hundreds of people redundant. Still, if they want to pay me 50K pa while I sit on my ass and do nothing then that's fine with me. Any journos reading this who want to chat? :E

Minstral

28th Jun 2012, 17:25

Yes I have spoken to the deskie, that's what spurred this thread in the first place. The conversation went something along the lines of can I fly Voyager - NO, Can I have Captaincy - NO, Can I leave - NO.

Right, so I have to stay exactly where I am until I have lost the will to live?!:ugh: It's just very frustrating.

The RAF has changed beyond all recognition in the last few years and crewroom chat is no-longer about great routes or fantastic expeditions, but more about who has PVR'd this week and what jobs they have lined up!

Minstral

28th Jun 2012, 17:37

Also, I haven't actually signed a ROS for my latest OCU. Does that mean that by completeing the course and signing the final report that I am bound by a rule hidden in some RAF publication? Or is there actual ROS paperwork that I should have been given?

Biggus

28th Jun 2012, 17:47

I don't know how quickly you want to get out, or what the RoS you are supposedly committed to is, but as I said before, simply fail your fitness test...

Its black and white stated RAF policy that successive failure of the fitness test is followed by formal warning and then admin discharge. You will be out in about 40 weeks I think, with no stain on your character.

Alternatively they ignore their own rules and try to keep someone in who can only run one length of the gym, and open themselves up to legal recourse from those they are still dismissing for failing the test....

Simples.

BEagle

28th Jun 2012, 19:27

Can I have Captaincy - NO

Why not?

.

StopStart

28th Jun 2012, 20:12

When I was initially pondering jacking it all in I asked the Deskenfuhrer if I could transfer to a different ME fleet just for a "change of scenery".
"No, " quoth he "you're an experienced instructor and we need to keep you on your current type"
"But I'm disillusioned and frustrated with it all and need a change for a bit"
"Tough"
"I'd rather PVR than carry on doing what I'm currently doing"
"Well we're not going to let you change fleets. We need you on this one."
"Bye then"
"Bye"
You can't argue with that sort of logic :ok:

The ME world can't afford to let too many people go as they're going to need a pile of people to man the A400 when it appears. Thus they're trying to keep people hanging on long enough to fill the seats when the thing finally turns up. Sadly there is stuff all to offer folk in the meantime. Sitting at the bedside, watching the slow euthanasia of the Herc force et al is no place for keen young folk....

SeaKingDriver

28th Jun 2012, 20:49

Interesting comment on page 1 ref changes to pensions in 2015. Any more experienced persons have thoughts on this...?

ralphmalph

28th Jun 2012, 20:50

Funniest for me was the "Fail your fitness test" comment!

Biggus

29th Jun 2012, 07:51

rm,

Why......?

Al R

29th Jun 2012, 08:19

Leo Abse MP served in the RAF and was an active member of the post WW2 'Forces Parliament', calling for (among other things) the nationalisation of the Bank of England (heresy!) and warm, fluffy socks. He was arrested (for the former, presumably) and shuffled out early.

BEagle

29th Jun 2012, 09:47

All these ideas about trying to leave through failing fitness tests, standing for parliament, suddenly becoming a conscientious objector etc. are pure hogwash. You need to complete the RoS following the OCU course and then consider your options further.

Why does your DeskO say that you cannot become a captain in your current fleet? That strikes me as rather an odd comment for him to have made.

I guess another spin-off from the creeping cancer of contractorisation is that the QFI route is no longer available?

Just stick with it until A400M comes into service, I'd say.

Minstral

29th Jun 2012, 12:46

My RoS is 2 years at the moment. It's not the end of the world but I do feel it is a waste of my time when I just want to get on with my life and find a job where I can make progress.

It's a 'No' for captaincy until I have another board. I have already passed one board before being sent to the J with the promise of a captains course in Jan 12. That course was scrubbed when SDSR happened. :(

The future of the J is Tac, I am not Tac because that would require a 4 month course, afterwhich I would be starting at the bottom of a 3rd sqn of co-pilots! Therefore if I am boarded for captaincy it is highly unlikely that I am going to get a captains course on the J. I'm not being pessimistic, just realistic.

Given that someone on the J OCU captains course has just PVR'd, yet no-one is making moves to fill the course with another prospective captain to save wasting a slot, it all adds up to rather low morale and a case of exceptionally bad timing on my part! :ugh:

Union Jack

29th Jun 2012, 18:57

I was just wondering if anyone has managed to leave the RAF before their Return of Service date. If so, how did you do it?

Noting the tenor of many of the responses, and with apologies for upsetting anyone (least of all you), no one seems to have come up with an absolutely foolproof recommendation for someone in the circumstances you describe, ie. they could always top themself ......:eek:

I was hoping to be employable afterward and I'm trying to avoid getting a shocking report before departing, if at all possible!

No probs - anyone following this route would only a. have to be careful about the modus operandi, and b.donate their body to medical science, in which case there would be no need to worry about a shocking report!:ok:

Jack

Tourist

30th Jun 2012, 10:28

Correct, I am not legally knowledgable.
I am able to observe things that happen around me though.

For example, in my career I saw two mates just walk out and go AWOL.
I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, but the mob made no attempt to chase them, because its too much trouble.
I also know of more than one who have just given a month and walked uncontested.
I know of another who stopped working for a year and got another job without the mob even noticing!

nice castle

30th Jun 2012, 13:36

& I know one who left early, went abroad, had a great time. Until he was arrested at the airport on re-entering the country and went to serve time at Colchester.

Maybe your chums were lucky, or the mob weren't bothered about them, but for my colleague, his holiday came with a bad case of the blues afterwards...

To the OP, the reality is, there's no way out of it. Another friend, for whom money was not an issue, had the best lawyers on his case and concluded he had to see out his time.

So, you'll just have to make something worthwhile of your remaining time. From Hamlet :"for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so: to me it is a prison."

You'll just have to think of it is something other than a prison. You're a co, right? = little responsibility, so get some AT organised (it is possible, despite the nay-sayers), make your own life fun, no-one else is going to do that for you! Much as Brize isn't Lyneham, it sure is a great part of the country. Buy a fast car, meet some girls in Cheltenham, Jeez, there's a bunch of people who would swap places with you.:ok: Happy happy, mustn't grumble!

orca

30th Jun 2012, 15:44

Is it just me or is there a distinct feeling that the regulations etc are designed for steady state and that they are being applied (over) zealously now in what are pretty exceptional circumstances?

SDSR, course cancellations, reduced or unclear promotion prospects, pension reform etc are all exceptional circumstances.

This thread is only in existence because individuals are expected to 'walk off' the consequences of SDSR whilst toeing the line.

unclenelli

1st Jul 2012, 18:03

Only a rumour I heard:
Find a Bye-Election and put yourself up for election. As a registered Voter it is your right to stand, however, the Military deem this as a conflict of interest and will allow you to walk with no notice.
Of course, your campaign will fail due to a lack of effort/manifesto/policies etc and it will cost you your deposit if enough people don't vote for you, but by that time, you'll be out with a clean reputation.
Risk: You might win!

In Reality:
I ended up with a 23-stone Morale-Sponge (he was named in the RAFFT policy change of 3yrs ago (must pass RAFFT* to graduate Ph2 trg))
He tried everything in the book to leave early - Med, Shrinks, Padre, SSAFA, RAFA, BL etc. (In order to leave, each & every one of these open files needs to be CLOSED. The more you open, the harder it is to leave)
Eventually, once we had got these all closed down, Trade Sponsor supported a waiver of RoS and Desk supported a waiver of PVR waiting time and he left....

5 days short of 2yrs service, so no Preserved Pension Rights and having only provided 8 productive days of service in that 722 days of pay.
Good Riddance.

His leaving gift?

A Packet of Wafer Thin Mints!!!

*He later confessed that the RAFFT he passed to graduate Halton, after 14wks holding, had cost him a pack of Jaffa Cakes)