change of professional direction

[phil_socata]

I would appreciate some comments of those who have already been down that road. I'm turning 29 shortly, hold a PPL since six years, have about 350 hours (VFR) and since two years own a SEP aicraft together with a friedn.

In the past months, I have grown ever more frustrated with my job in the communications industry and seriously consider doing a modular ATPL over the next 12 months. This should be possible without loans or borrowed money, but my savings will be quite depleted by then. Wife is fine with it, because a) she isn't the family-with-kids-type either and b) she sees how my present job is wearing me out.

I know that in the first years as a pilot I will make less money than I do now – if I find a job, that's what makes me thinking. Do you see any signs of the pilot market improving? Or is it moving in a direction where it is "22 year old company cadet" or p2f or no commercial/airline flying at all?

Thanks for your thoughts!

[phil_socata]

Thanks for the reply. Of course the wish to fly is the most important motivation, otherwise I wouldn't have invested a load of money into private flying and would consider investing now again.
As for GAPAN, I live in Austria and the tests are only done in Britain. Furthermore, my flying experience would seriously diminish their validity, according to their homepage ....

[taxistaxing]

I'm interested in this thread as well as I'm the same age and in a very similar position.

I've started the ATPL ground school and hour building on the basis that the market is currently at a low point and (hopefully) more opportunities will be available in a couple of years when I finish. This is the main advantage of the modular route as I see it; it allows you to vary the pace of your training according to when opportunities present themselves. Equally it seems that delaying starting training until a 'boom' time is risky as, due to the cyclical nature of the market, there's no guarantee things will be the same when you finish.

I'm also hoping, as you may be Phil, that 'transferable skills' from another career will make up for being slightly older than the typical cadet, and hopefully more well rounded - I certainly feel I'd rather spend several hours a day in a cockpit with the 29 year old me rather than the 18/19 yo me!

It seems like there is a school of thought on this forum that late twenties/early thirties is a good time to train as you're old enough to have some useful life experience behind you but not too old to slow the pace of learning or be too cynical.

[phil_socata]

Hi taxis, were you already flying privately or did you start ab initio? I share your thoughts/hopes on timing...

[taxistaxing]

I started flying when I was a young teenager, and just did dribs and drabs here and there. I first soloed in 1999 but then due to the usual distractions, 'A' levels, uni, blah blah didn't finish my PPL until 2005.

I then had another long break until late last year when I did a trial lesson in a microlight on a whim, and then decided to revalidate my PPL and have taken it from there.

To be honest I've always wanted to fly for a living and that's something that has never gone away even though I've been pursuing a totally unrelated career. I think that's what has drawn me back to it after all this time. That and the sad realisation that with increasing age, it's 'now or never' !!!

[MCDU2]

I think you should take a more scientific approach to work out an answer. Assuming that you want to work for a UK airline list them down on a bit of paper and note how many of them take on low houred pilots. Remembering that the likes of BMI are no more, Virgin only take on 3,000hr plus pilots, BA want integrated self sponsored cadets and CTC has most of the loco and charter market operators sewn up.

That pretty much leaves Ryanair, Flybe and the ad hoc carriers like Jet2 and the TP operators. All of these operators pay peanuts and of course you are assuming that through this process of self selection that you (a) jump through all of the recruitment hoops and are selected ahead of the other 1000 people that apply and (b) can afford a type rating and possible relocation expenses.

I would be surprised if you get much if any return on your investment.

Incidentally I left a profession later in life BUT was very lucky and landed a jet job straight off from flight school in a unionised airline. That pretty much determined my future career in the sense that I didn't have to worry about putting food on the table, I now have thousands of jet hours from a reputable highly regarded airline. It also meant I didn't have to "build" hours and jump from pillar to post trying to get into a career airline whilst wasting years that I didn't have.

Unfortunately with the world on its knees for the foreseeable future I cannot see any return to the boom years when airlines were literally willing to give people a chance. Its now all about p2f, type ratings, MPL and cadetships for the lucky few. You might well get a gig at a very small operator but you will spend years trying to get into a decent carrier and I can't see any payback for your monies. Of course all bets are off if you have industry contacts but the reality is they are few and far between and most airlines are being dominated by HR departments that are trying to weed out the nepotism that once existed.

[119.35]

MCDU is on the money. If you intend going modular, you need a plan, preferably one with very good contacts.

To further whittle down the list of prospective employers, Flybe no longer seem to recruit low hour guys from their pref'd modular FTOs, you are unlikely to get ahead of the ex-mil and FIs next time Jet2 recruit and Eastern like FIs.

That doesn't leave many prospective employers to target and the OP will be 30 plus by the time they finish their training. The recent threads on Ryan and age won't have gone unnoticed.

Possibly with the exception of Ryan, I don't think age is the issue. You just need to go into things with eyes wide open and a very good idea of what your potential prospects really are.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[sevenstrokeroll]

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT A MODULAR ATPL IS?

I guess we use different terms in the USA. When I got my ATP 30 years ago we didn't use the term MODULAR.

[Fostex]

Let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=modular+ATPL)

[flyinglondon]

This is a very interesting thread topic and hits the nail right on the head for my current situation.

Phil / taxis - I'm in the same boat.

- 29 years old at the moment - turning 30 soon
- got my PPL at 17 /18 in the United States thinking I wanted to be a career pilot (had dreamed of an airline pilot career since age 7)
- by 18 decided for various reasons to take a different approach (figured I'd find a way to become rich and just buy my own plane if I wanted to fly)
- ending up going to one of the best UK universities and studied Economics
- Decided to go into investment banking because "that was the thing to do" , people were making loads of money (this was 2005/2006) and admittedly the work sounded pretty cool (except the thought of 100 hour working weeks)
- Plan A was moving along fine...up until 2008 when the City fell flat on its face. I'm lucky given I've survived the whole mess of the last few years and have built up a solid capital base for someone my age
- the innate desire to be an airline pilot (which I've suppressed for the last 10+ years) keeps resurfacing (and ever more loudly given it's pretty much now or never).


Having been reviewing these message boards for well over the past year - my conclusion is it's not worth the risk and financial outlay of switching careers to become a pilot if you're already in a high paying job in a different industry which you at least somewhat enjoy. With one exception. Unless (and only unless) you are lucky enough to secure a place on a sponsored integrated scheme where you basically are guaranteed a job so long as you pass the 18-24 months of training.


Surely someone in there very early 30s, with solid work experience behind them, with the corresponding level of maturity and professionalism and with the right pilot training and skills can be a very attractive proposition to an airline employer. You can still have a solid 25 year career ahead of you. But it is now or never for myself / Phil / taxis and others in a similar situation

[phil_socata]

Great that there are now 3 of us in quite the same situation :). I agree with flyinglondon, with two exceptions:

- quite a lot of my "solid capital base" has already gone into my aircraft:O

- in my opinion, going modular is the better route for someone in our position: you can do the ATPL theory alongside your daytime (and often nighttime) job and quit before the practical part, if necessary. Depending on your present contract, the amount of unconsumed holidays, the negotiations with your boss and so on, this should give you a window of 3 to 6 months in which you keep making money as before, but can focus entirely on flying. Perhaps you can even negotiate a "consulting" position with your present employer to extend the financial umbrella a bid further, bridging the gap to your first flying job as far as possible.

Going integrated, on the other hand, means that you live of your financial reserves and the pressure increases with each month. Quite risky in the present economical situation! I think this route is better suited to 18 to 20 year olds who are financed by their families ...

[An0maly]

Would like to add my name to the list , been considering the jump for more than 4 years but always thought it was too late as I'd not started training shortly after I learnt to walk :ugh:

I'm turing 31 next month , currently work for a very large corporation out in the sand pit , Knoteetingham as some people might know it :) . I'm relatively senior in my department and currently make about as much as an FO at one of the major ME carriers . All that aside , I'd still make the jump given the chance even if I had to take a massive pay cut to get it done . My job requires a lot of flying between countries , before boarding I spend my time watching the pilots doing the pre-flight checks and during the flight I keep looking at the wings trying to workout degrees of Flaps as well as calculating the point when we'll start descending :8

I've decided that I'll give it a try starting off with PPL + Night , where I go from there depends on if I get a class-1 medical as I do know that I have a degree of eye muscle imbalance but don't know how bad . My glasses prescription doesn't have any correction for it and I can see quiet well without them but will need to see my Ophthalmologist to know if I fit in to CAA requirements or not. If I do get it then I plan to do my ATPLs and Hour building while I'm working and then sort out time off / unpaid leave when it comes to ME/IR .

It's either now or never as I don't want to be much older and thinking to myself what if and even if I don't get a job then I would have had the fun of going all the way and the satisfaction that the only reason I didn't make it was because of the industry state and not any fault of my own .

[taxistaxing]

Yep. It's good to know there are others in the same position.

Modular all the way for me, and I'm viewing everything up to CPL as good experience that will enhance my private flying for the future, even if I don't take flying forwrad as a career. Certainly the hour building I'm doing at the moment is enjoyable and, though expensive, it's not money I feel that I'm p*ssing up the wall (although my GF thinks differently :rolleyes:).

I'm going to get the CPL under my belt, and take it from there. I may hesitate to launch straight into an MEIR with prospects as they are at the moment, but things may be better in a couple of years when I'll still 'only' be early 30s.

As you say Phil a good option might be a half way house - I've always fancied instructing (the job, not the derisory pay) and would definitely consider a 'sabbatical' from work to instruct for a few months as a way of building hours and making contacts.

[LPVL]

Yes I can join the list as well.
I got my PPL in 2006 and ever since I am thinking about step in the ATPL. At that time Modular schemes were not available, in fact since only 2 years ago it became possible here in Portugal.
Let us see...

[waco]

Quite frankly you are all mad..................
If anybody, especially in the current climate, gives up a sound job/career/business to go flying they deserve all the nightmares that will await you.

[taxistaxing]

Waco - do you have anything more constructive to say? If you read over the posts I don't think anyone is jacking in their job to "go flying" as you do eloquently put it...

[clunk1001]

Hi Phil, I've already been down that road. I'd been flying since the age of 16 and only decided to try a "change of professional direction" at the age of 30. Now finished, I've been job hunting for nearly two years.

Here's my advice :

1. Have a plan B. I run my own business which I continued to run whilst training part time. After finishing I just stepped the business back up.

2. Be prepared to not get a flying Job (see point 1), 2+ years seems to be very common without even an interview. What tends to happen is that just as you think you're getting close, an airline goes bust somewhere and you find yourself at the back of a queue behind 200 experienced pilots.

3. Don't underestimate just how much it's all going to cost, and how painful those payments are going to be. On top of keeping current (e.g. 50 hours in the preceding 12 months for FlyBe). (see point 1).

and most importantly....

4. take a long hard look at the reality of the Pilot profession these days, and where it is going, its changed radically in the past 5 years (see point 1 again):

Take a look at these jobs :

A320 Senior First Officer - €20,000
A320 First Officer - Europe with Storm McGinley | 1401343067 (http://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401343067/a320-first-officer-europe/)

McDonalds Trainee Manager - €22,930
Trainee Business Manager :: McDonalds.co.uk (http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/ukhome/People/Join-the-team/Pick-your-role/Trainee-business-manager.html)


"change of professional direction"? Pilot? That new direction would be down then?!

People will tell you it's not all about money, if you want to fly you'll do it for free - and people do, and that is the problem. That's why experienced airbus drivers earn less than an 17 year old trainee on their very first day dropping burgers (because they haven't even learnt how to flip them yet).

So financially, moving from any form of stable job/career/business is madness. Just as Waco stated. The figures speak for themselves.

Personally, I'm glad I did it. And I'd do it again. Would I want to work for €20,000? No. But I probably would :-)

[phil_socata]

Great advice, thank you clunk. After completing my fATPL, would I work part time for little money, instructing or as an f/o in executive aviation? Of course, because that would allow me to have another job to pay the bills.

Would I fly full time for 20 k Euros for whomever? No, because this definitely won't pay the bills. For the same reason, I definitely won't consider some p2f scheme.

If really nothing better should come up – well, then it was great to learn and gain experience, and that IR is useful for private flying too. A few thousand Euros spent for the ME, okay, but that would be all the losses ...

That's how I look at it – but of course, I hope to get a shot at the reasonably well paid f/o jobs with companies such as Condor, EAT, Tyrolean, Norwegian (?) and so on.

[FANS]

Best bet is to join a tagged scheme with an integrated provider and crack on with it - if it's what you want.

With modular, too many have the only option of instructing which is not the stepping stone it once was, if they don't make RYR.

In summary, you can either afford to pay for an integrated course and live on not a lot for 3-4 years or you (or your Mrs/kids/mortgage etc) can't.

It's not easy which is why so many talk of doing it in their 30s, but reality stops them rather than ability per se.