Report of possible Irish Air Corp EC135 wire strike incident while on HEMS tasking. No report of injuries or aircraft damage. Aircraft still at the scene. Incident occured while on approach to the L/Z north of Limerick.

Hopefully everyone ok.

Just heard that too. No other info yet. Hopefully no casualties.

I'm sorry to say that many people predicted just such an accident when this air ambulance service was set up. Sadly they were right.

Early news reports. The type is incorrect in the report, should be an EC135

Three Air Corps crew injured as helicopter crashes | BreakingNews.ie (http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/three-air-corps-crew-injured-as-helicopter-crashes-555914.html)

JAS

Sad news. Hopefully the crew will be OK and make speedy recoveries.

Corsair wrote " I'm sorry to say that many people predicted just such an accident when this air ambulance service was set up. Sadly they were right."

Who exactly are the "many people" and what was their assessment based on? Is this just Irish Cynicism raising it's head?

I have just watched the latest news on TV here as I write this. The incident is being described as a "hard landing" and occurred on take-off. The injuries suffered are being described as "not serious". That at least is good news.

500 Fan.

Good to hear no serious injuries. That's a relief.

500 fan, there was considerable debate on other forums and elsewhere in relation to this service. First off it's not a HEMS service, not intended to be. Secondly this accident was entirely predictable and in fact predicted. This service was a political compromise in order to avoid paying for a full HEMS service. Roadside air ambulance services are known to be high risk. The use of relatively inexperienced Air Corps pilots in this role was always a gamble and so it proved.

The only surprise is that this incident happened so early. But it WAS inevitable. It's a relief that no one was killed this time.

Maybe some common sense will prevail and a true HEMS service is put in place with a civilian operator.

The use of relatively inexperienced Air Corps pilots in this role was always a gamble and so it proved.


Corsair do you know the crew, as that seems quite a sweeping statement?

Hope they are all OK.

I know the Air Corps!

No previous HEMS experience at operational or management level means this was predictable. Safety culture still lacking. A lucky escape.
:ugh:

H

The 6 O'Clock news now reports NO injuries, so that is excellent news.:ok:

The footage shown in the news report shows severed electrical cables nearby. The helicopter is sitting in a field very near a roadway. The helicopter looks to be in good condition. It is sitting upright with the main rotor intact as, it appears, is the tail boom. The footage was shot from a roadway which is below the level of the helicopter so it is not possible to see what condition the skids are in but looking at how the ship is sitting fairly level, it is possible there is limited damage to the undercarriage. Hopefully damage to the aircraft is minor and it can be returned to service at some point in the future.

Perhaps the current economic troubles here have impacted adversely on currency levels amongst air corps pilots but I would imagine their training is up to scratch. Accidents can befall the best pilots just as quickly as those less gifted. Hopefully the incident report will be published quickly.

500 Fan.

I hate quoting myself but when this idea was first announced, I said this on the subject:

Worse still, it's run by the military whose record is far from exemplerary. There is a big danger that the single pilot will be under pressure to fly into dangerous situations.

It's an accident waiting to happen.

The only good thing about it is that it will highlight exactly what's wrong with the idea. Perhaps it will take the deaths of the crew of a helicopter to wake people up. Not the first time that happened.

At least no one died this time. I take no pleasure in saying I told you so. Let's hope this service is now suspended and a full investigation into the safety culture of the Air Corps is put in place.

The incident is being described as a "hard landing" and occurred on take-off.

The luck of the Irish never fails to impress.

Safety culture not up to scratch. Nor is currency or training. Attitude not much better...
:=

from watching the news footage it looks as if the wire wasn't even broken....

That newslink in post 3 has already been pulled. Is it likely that the Irish military have been able to "pull" the news item?? (I don't know enough about the Irish scene).

Further searching shows that there seems to be a new link now:

Air Corps helicopter in 'hard landing' in Co Tipperary - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0619/air-corps-helicopter-hard-landing-in-tipperary.html#video)

I guess the link in post #3 was pulled because it contained more holes than a block of Jarlsberg - they said it was an EC145 for a start.... Go figure.

They replaced it with this one Air ambulance makes 'heavy' landing in Tipperary | Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/air-ambulance-makes-heavy-landing-in-tipperary-555926.html)

Air ambulance makes 'heavy' landing in Tipperary
Tuesday, June 19, 2012 - 04:53 PM

It has emerged that none of the crew on board an Aer Corps air ambulance were injured after the helicopter was forced to make an emergency landing in County Tipperary.

The aircraft came down near Borrisoleigh in County Tipperary at around 3pm.

There were three staff, but no patients, on board at the time of the accident.

A spokesperson for the Defence Forces has confirmed that the helicopter was involved in a "heavy but controlled landing".

It is understood the chopper had clipped and ESB power line.

The Athlone based Air Corps ambulance had only begun operations 15 days ago.

http://cache.tcm.ie/media/images/a/AirAmbulance.jpg

baby spanner - check 40 seconds in to the video in helinut's news link and you will see "downed wires"

So did the wire strike system save the day? Certainly some manufacturers are making these mandatory fitment now - why not all of them?

The "layout" of overhead wires in some Irish farms and villages couldnt be better designed to snare a helicopter.


Mickjoebill

Seems a damning response from several others about the safety ethos of the IAC. I remember once when they were escorting Hilary Clinton during a visit to Ireland about X yrs ago, one of the squirrels went IIMC and pulled like hell spiralling out into VMC on top at 5000' completely lost???
I did a differences course on the EC135 glass cockpit and on that course were two "Captains" from the IAC who were 'converting' to police ops. Between them, they had 200hrs FW and 10hrs helo:ugh::mad::rolleyes:

Accident inquiry as State air ambulance hits power lines two weeks into service - The Irish Times - Wed, Jun 20, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0620/1224318259113.html)

Pic of damage here. :sad:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/boundedtile/2012/0620/1224318259113_1.jpg

THE AIR Accident Investigation Unit has begun an investigation into a “heavy landing” by an Air Corps Eurocopter in Co Tipperary after it came into contact with power lines while on an air ambulance mission.

Two Air Corps crew and one Health Service Executive paramedic escaped without injury. But the Eurocopter 135 was substantially damaged in the incident.

The aircraft, which had been assigned to the pilot emergency aeromedical service, has been taken out of service.

The new air ambulance had been in operation for a fortnight and had flown 10 missions to date.

It had left Custume Barracks in Athlone, Co Westmeath, at 1.50pm and was en route to Templemore, Co Tipperary, to airlift a seriously ill patient to hospital when it came in contact with overhead cables at 2.10pm.

The helicopter made a “heavy but controlled” landing in a field at Currabaha Cross, close to the R498 road, about six kilometres northwest of Borrisoleigh in north Tipperary. Emergency crews responded within 20 minutes.

The helicopter’s skid bars were embedded in the field, while the aircraft’s tail section was damaged.

The patient who was the subject of the call-out was taken to hospital by road.

The Department of Transport said the accident investigation unit had been asked by the Air Corps to investigate the incident and its team was en route to the site last night. In addition, the location would be inspected and surveyed and the damaged aircraft would then be moved to a secure site, said a department spokeswoman.

ESB crews were last night working to repair damaged power lines and an Air Corps recovery unit had travelled to the incident. Senior HSE ambulance staff also visited the scene.

“Contingency plans are being put in place to resume the emergency aeromedical service as soon as possible,” said the Department of Defence.

The pilot service is run by the Air Corps for the HSE under an interdepartmental memorandum of understanding. It is understood the Department of Health received submissions warning of the risks of a short lead-in time and this factor may be examined by the investigators.

Helicopter emergency medical services are regarded as being as risky as offshore search and rescue, due to the nature of taskings. In North America, the greatest number of helicopter accidents involve emergency medical services aircraft.

The Irish service had responded to, on average, one call-out daily since it became operational on June 4th.

From the Irish Times article: “Contingency plans are being put in place to resume the emergency aeromedical service as soon as possible,” said the Department of Defence.I seriously hope not. They got away with it this time. Next time people could die. This accident happened on a fairly benign summer's day. Imagine the potential for disaster when more typical Irish weather is in place?

I did a differences course on the EC135 glass cockpit and on that course were two "Captains" from the IAC who were 'converting' to police ops. Between them, they had 200hrs FW and 10hrs helo I was going to say 'unbelievable' but believable is more apt.

The recent accident report on the PC9 crash in Galway highlighted flaws in the safety ethos of the Air Corps. As a result there was attempt by the Air Corps to suppress the report or those parts which they didn't like.

The IACs farcebook page likes to play up it's air ambulance missions but it's notably blank on this incident this morning.

I believe the Crews do get good training but good ADM comes with experience and flight time. low time pilots should not be flying these missions,

How many hours to you think the Pilots of the GASU have?

Very happy they are all ok,

someone mentioned this contract began 15 days ago? Wow.

Must have been a real hard landing, the mainframe isnt in a good condition...
real big wrinkles !

skadi

Given the damage visible in the photo, is the airframe likely to be a write-off? The news article also mentions damage to the tail boom so it doesn't sound good. Can this helicopter go back to Eurocopter for re-manufacture or is a brand new EC135 a better option? I'm not sure we can afford either option at the moment!

500 Fan.

Ahhh 500, a couple of well placed patches and she'll be rihgt as rain. I do not haowever assume that the wrinkles are a direct indicator of the heavy landing, that could have been the wires could it not? Those panels I suspect are not load bearing and are simply panels.

TC's reveal is quite remarkable. Can anyone think of anywhere else where such an expensive and relatively complicated piece of kit would be given to someone with so little experience?

Given the number of flying hours, this must have the highest accident rate of any HEMS worldwide, at the moment.

Surely too goodness, someone must be able to point out the madness of this setup.

The only good sign is that the accident is to be investigated by the civi investigators, rather than an in-house investigation.

Surely too goodness, someone must be able to point out the madness of this setup.It was pointed out but no one was listening. Maybe they'll re-think it now or will we have to see a fatal crash before the message sinks in.

As for a crash 15 days after starting a service. Well back in 1999, the Air Corps lost a Dauphin in a fatal crash while operating the first 24 hour SAR at Waterford airport. Literally on the first day of the service.

I do not haowever assume that the wrinkles are a direct indicator of the heavy landing, that could have been the wires could it not? Those panels I suspect are not load bearing and are simply panels.

I dont agree. These wrinkles were not formed by the wires. It comes from the compression between the aft crosstube vs. tailboom. This part of the airframe is constructed from riveted aluminium sheets.

skadi

The only good sign is that the accident is to be investigated by the civi investigators, rather than an in-house investigation

The problem is that the AAIU are ex military as are the IAA so when the Jolly boys break something the investigation is thorough but the report is light reading.

Just like the report when the IAC pilot hit the Fuel tank in Weston with his Tail whilst doing a nixer whilst being on sick leave.

Get some of the Good Sticks back from overseas to fly these contracts. :ugh:

These wrinkles were not formed by the wires

Correct, the wires look to have just been impacted by the main rotor (blades).
The wrinkles were caused by the landing which splayed the skids out fully also.

BW

Maybe the IAC are candidates for the Competency Management System - I'll refresh the thread so you can find it easily.

G.

Lets focus on the positive, 14 days with no accident....

Thank God no-one was hurt... You can't bluff HEMS experience!

Thank God nobody was hurt. Unfortunately though, I have to agree with most people who have commented so far and say that I have only ever been shocked by the level of experience of most Air Corps pilots.

I once visited Casement and was being shown around by a young Lieutenant, he was qualified on 135, he told me he had 90 hours on type, all in Dunneworth? How much did that cost the Irish taxpayer? He also told me it was his first Helicopter type, very nice machine for your first Heli.

Then the best bit, an Engineer I knew there offered to connect external power to the aircraft so we could look at the glass and the Lieutenant couldn't find the external power authorisation switch, it literally took him five minutes to get the power online, and then he couldn't seem to remember how to display the moving map.

To say I was unimpressed was a huge understatement. There are many very competent multi engine, IFR rated pilots from Ireland on this forum, all working abroad as there are no jobs at home and then the HSE and Air Corps create an MOU without ever opening a bid to a Commercial operator and try to do the job cheaply, using the best kit bought by the Irish People, with some of the lowest houred pilots it's not surprising that this is what happens.

It is true that landing in fields in Ireland is VERY risky as there are phone lines, electrical wires etc. often criss crossing nearly every field, but this was a clear day in summer and I have to wonder what will happen, as someone already mentioned, when the winter or crappy summers day is upon them. I know many who read this thread landed in those very fields for many years and never destroyed an aircraft.

Unfortunately, it is true that the IAA and AAIU are all full of Ex-Air Corps people and if true to form, they will blame the ESB for locating the wires in a dangerous position. The pilot will get a medal and promoted and the service will resume.

Lunar

Should train them the basics on a Hu269 or even a 206. A Twin of that value as a primary trainer!! that's almost as mad as using a PC-9 as Basic trainer and then putting them into the Cessna once they graduate.

There is a Rumour that they Hit the Fenestron off a Pole down in The Athlone barricks. Just a Rumour!!,, This is a Rumour network after all.

I seen an IAC pilot at the Topaz station (off base) in his Flight suit and I could have sworn his Patch insignia had the Angry Birds Logo on it. !! :D:D

Why do they have a full motion sim for King Air when we don't even have the Airframe anymore, or do we?

As I sit here in retirement I just cannot let this UTTER NONSENSE prevail:=.

As someone who worked alongside a lot of these heli guys, I am ex GASU, your information is so inaccurate it's forced me off the fence; which is why, most people suspect, so many of these posts are scandalous and defamatory!!:mad: Quiet aside from all the Agendas going on here....I suspect a number of you guys need heli jobs or have a personal axe to grind with the IAC (did they train a few of you - blue flu?) hence you are on the net all day, so it makes sense to 'have a go'? (IP addresses are logged)
I do know that the IAC got a company (**S) to train some of the younger pilots years ago. There were only two instructors who did work with them from that company, and their was a very serious allegation that one of these guys barrel-rolled a Garda ec-135 at the end of a training flight in Baldonnel, and was never allowed back into the place! Let's not mention the other issue!
As for the hours comments, the facts are that all AC pilots do 200 hrs+ on the PC 7or 9 and then 180+ rotary BEFORE they start basic line flying (they all do ATPLs too I think, but you can confirm that, I am going swimming).
As for their professionalism: my 2000+ hours EXPERIENCE of flying with these guys is that they were a royal pain because they were so safety conscious and it impacted on the GASU operation. But, with age and a pension, my respect has grown for them. I have HUGE time for their underpaid technicians.
As an ex-aerosexual, I know the following :
50 years of IAC helicopter operations (older than all of you I suspect); one fatal accident (RIP); a number of incidents - like all incidents, many were avoidable I am sure; and, during that time they launched the FIRST HELICOPTER AIR AMBULANCE SERVICE IN EUROPE; Day and Night SAR in Ireland; NV Ops, Army and Navy stuff for 40 years, and, 15+ years of safe GASU operations. And, some of you think they lack experience?
Ladies and Gents as a ex-policeman, I was trained to stay with the facts, you should do the same.

If they are so bad, then why are ex IAC lads Chief Pilots in CHC Ireland, Ryanair (biggest airline back home) and Bond and a whole host of other outfits? Doesn't fit your analysis at all - AGENDAS?:cool:

I owed the AC (for all our arguments) that, safe flying to all and trust only facts.:O

If the discussion about lack of crew experience is correct, one must ask "whatever happened to continuity"? There was experience in the past, so what happened to it?

A Twin of that value as a primary trainer!! that's almost as mad as using a PC-9 as Basic trainer and then putting them into the Cessna once they graduate.

I was going to laugh, but it's so sad that it's true.

The IAC culture was pronounced (http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/3924-1.pdf) as very sick after the Daupin crash, sadly on the first day of operation as Corsair pointed out. Lessons weren't learned.

The PC-9 (http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=13426&lang=ENG&loc=1652) crash occurred. The culture was still not right unsurprisingly.

I'm so relieved that at least this time there are no dead IAC pilots to prove again that the IAC are still not getting things right. I don't criticize the front line pilots, they are not being protected as they should.

Take this "service" off the IAC and give it to a competent civilian contractor who can recruit openly and who are not impeded by having to train pilots from scratch. They weren't up to running SAR and they are not up to running HEMS.

There was experience in the past, so what happened to it?

This point is discussed in the Dauphin report ShyTorque. They couldn't/can't retain experience and they are totally impeded by the huge amount of time it takes to get someone from basic training all the way through to experienced Captain. Those Captains are then lured away by civvie street.

I keep repeating myself: FACTS only. I had many a fight with them BUT the IAC safety record is on par with any other outfit conducting similar ops. Their helicopter statistics are far better than most operators. Again, what are the agendas here? :ugh:

I think the silence from those with any serious statistical support for the comments on the first few posts says it all. 50 years of helicopter operations and one fatal accident, and long may it be that way (their technicians deserve particular praise). This is a safety record that helicopter operators the world over would love, which is why the Gardai are staying put. The Dophin accident was 13 years ago. In any police or para-public operation, accidents and incidents WILL ALWAYS (very regrettably) happen. How many UK/european EC-135 and Squirrels were in incidents with Police and HEMS over the past 15-20 years? [Some super guys there by the way too]

Safety audit in 2002 said......it was conducted by ex USAF and British auditors......there were some minor issues, but all in all a VERY COMPETENT organisation conducting a wide range of Ops to a very high standard. Pilot training was singled out as being of a very high standard [even if I didnt get on with one or two of them]. Don't equal youth with incompetence or age with competence, dangerous assumptions.

So credit, where credit is due. As for private operators: as someone who receives Irish taxpayers' money every week; NO THANKS. 4 private SAR bases and its going to cost us €250,000-€300,000 per base per WEEK, and most of them are staffed by Irish Air Corps/Army/Navy

Are we deluding ourselves?? Just who would benefit if this was privatised? Some of the gentlemen that or on this forum perhaps?

FACTS DISMANTLE AGENDAS.

One or two photos here!

The Emergency Aeromedical Service (EAS) air ambulance which was involved in a forced landing near Borrisoleigh in Co Tipperary. The crew escaped without injury. 19/06/12 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/patflynn/7403305984/in/photostream/)

The IAC carrying out another civil role. FACT.
IAC have no AOC to carry out HEMS. FACT.
IAA turn a blind eye. FACT

NTSB report on HEMS. FACT.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/speeches/sumwalt/AAMS-update-March-2010.pdf

Give it a read and consider what has just happened.

But stick around because rumour has it from tomorrow they will go at it again with an AW 139. No accountability, external overview or auditing. All FACT. ;)

Justthefact, with all due respect you were a cop not a pilot or aircrew and GASU was not a semi HEMS operation with off site landings. Respect to your experience but it's not that relevant and it's pretty clear things have changed.

A couple of points, sure the Air Corps had a good safety record with helicopters. I think Aerospatiale once calculated they should have lost twenty Alouettes over the period they were in service. But they only ever had eight and only lost a couple.

Impressive? At first sight. Then you consider the reality. They were day VFR only, rarely deployed away from base and never saw any form of combat or even austere deployments. As you also point out the pilots were conservative to the point of frustration to the Gardai were a royal pain because they were so safety conscious and it impacted on the GASU operation. Thanks for confirming that rumour.

As ever you fall back on the usual BS accusations when someone points out some faults of the Air Corps: Quiet aside from all the Agendas going on here....I suspect a number of you guys need heli jobs or have a personal axe to grind with the IAC Yeah I hate the Air Corps because they didn't pick me :rolleyes:, juvenile crap.

The point is that this kind of HEMS flying is notoriously risky. In the UK and the US it's invariably flown by very experienced ex military pilots with a lot of time flying into risky situations sometime under fire. This is not the current Air Corps level of experience.

The fact is that many people confidently predicted an accident or incident like this and were proved right. It doesn't matter whether or not the the pilots were well trained or not. The simple fact is that they have little or no experience of HEMS work and indeed minimal experience of operations away from Baldonnel or into tight LZs. This operation was set up as a political expedient by politicians, presumably abetted by the Air Corps brass.

None of this can be construed as criticism of the individual aircrew involved in this. Whether they be well trained or poorly trained, inexperienced or experienced. They're soldiers. They obey orders. They don't have a choice.

Quite simply this operation should never have been considered in the first place.

So get off your high horse.

IAC have no AOC to carry out HEMS. FACT.

This is an interesting point. Elsewhere, HEMS is classed as public transport so appropriate rules are in place. How does this work with a military operator?

HEMS cannot really be compared with SAR, btw.

IF a Civilian Pilot did that He'd be fired. FACT!

After justthefacts intervention I thought it might be interesting to review the IAC Dauphin SAR accident. It is available here:

Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports (http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=13091&lang=ENG&loc=1280)

I hesitate to comment for fear of more threats, but if anyone looks at it, it contains some interesting facts and opinions from professional aviators and comments about management, equipment, staffing, currency and experience.

I wonder whether the investigation of this latest accident will have similar observations?

Corsair, the IAC operated eight Alouette IIIs for 43 years. In that time only one was written off. All eight airframes were present at Baldonnell in September 2007 on the date of their retirement from service. Six flew that day and No.7 could probably have been returned to airworthy condition if it had been required. A202 was also present that day after being rebuilt to static condition. So, all eight helicopters were present after a lengthy period of service having saved many lives, often in less than favourable conditions. Not a bad record for an outfit as shoddy as the IAC!:ok:

Many here seem to have an axe to grind when it comes to the IAC. It is good to see that justthefact is bringing a little balance to the debate.

I would have to agree with you, Corsair, when it comes to the political influence that the clowns we have for politicians have over the decision to set up this particular operation. It may well be the case that this HEMS operation was seen as a vote-getter for the current regime to remain in power come election time. The Minister for Health can tell everyone he was the man behind this air ambulance service. With no private HEMS operation on the horizon, he has grabbed the bull by the horns and got this service going, or so he likes to think. The direction then came down from the DOD to put it in place and that is what has happened. I doubt Brigadier General Paul Fry is happy with the level of funding he has to run the IAC. He has to make do with what he has. Does he turn around and tell the Ministers that the IAC are not capable of running this service? Perhaps he should if this is indeed the case but I doubt anyone in his shoes would. Instead he does his best, along with those below him, to try and get the job done. Funding has always been a problem in the IAC and the problem has never been more acute than it is today, I would imagine.

Someone wrote earlier that the IAC weren't up to running SAR. They seemed to do OK for a very long time. The Dauphin crash report highlighted the failings across the board, not just laying the blame with the IAC. The Dauphin is no doubt a fine aircraft, but probably was not ideal for SAR, certainly along the western seaboard in Ireland. That report highlighted the need for suitable aircraft, yet the government were found wanting and never procured suitable helicopters. They managed to mess up the deal to buy the S-92 (maybe a good thing in the end, given the MGB problems). When an S-61 was leased and flown by IAC crews, the winch gear for the rear crew proved to be faulty. The crews raised the issue and took a stand. The politicians then decided they had had enough and pulled the plug on IAC SAR ops. Maybe the winch crews could have tackled the issue in a better manner, or maybe they did the correct thing. It all depends on which version of events you choose to believe.

Hopefully the lessons from this HEMS incident will be learned and the IAC can move forward. Justthefact might be correct when he states some here have an agenda. The way some people here are talking you'd swear every flight undertaken by the IAC results in a crash.

500 Fan.

In an attempt to add a little balance to the discussion:

If you think an experienced, well trained, HEMS pilot is incapable of hitting wires then you don't understand the risk!

If the military are operating the helicopter, public transport etc. doesn't come into it any more than the views of the national aviation authority does. That's not to say that there won't be discussions at a certain level.

Cheers

TeeS

It's a rumour network-FACT!

IP Addresses are logged!!!! What an interesting point our "friend" makes, or was it some sort of threat. If I didn't have so many friends who are decent Police I'd make more of that point.

All that I write here is from personal experience, sitting with Air Corps pilots and having them tell me things that happened. I talked with an Italian pilot in Agusta about the delivery flight of the AW139's. Two in flight, one entered IMC and over-torqued the heli on exiting. Then declared a MAYDAY and diverted to Cannes for the night.

IAC engineer inspected the heli and cleared it to fly to Ireland. It got back to base and all was reported to Agusta at which point the aircraft was grounded. The second aircraft was running ground runs the next day and a taxing Alouette blew for into the engine, so in two days they had an aircraft down for over torque and lost an engine.

Anyone could hit power lines, I'm sure many of the professional helicopter PILOTS reading this will all have stories about it but with experience, and I'm not talking about 400 hours of qualification on FW and then Heli, I am talking THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of hours of sitting in the seat we can decrease the chances of an incident or accident.

I have opinions about the Air Corps, however I have no axe to grind, I did not attempt to join the IAC. I simply think it is completely wrong for a service to be set up to move patients around Ireland that uses state assets with no oversight. There are many "stories' about various aircraft the Air Corps have destroyed over the years but all of those that happened on Casement and were not in the public arena are subject to the official secrets act and will not be released for many years to come. So telling us how safe the Air Corps is a bit interesting.

What I do really object to is being threatened in some way by someone who joins a Professional Pilots RUMOUR network and comments in such a self righteous manner and spouts "facts", when the simple fact is that he is neither a pilot or professional in this area of expertise.

Lunar.

I have seen this happen before, on other forums too. The IAC are involved in an accident or incident, people with aviation experience discuss it, brining their point of views. Some of it doesn't sit well with IAC fans ( the truth hurts some time) so you are then seen as having an axe to grind or worse again threatened.

Here is a link to a more recent crash report which unfortunately had fatalities. Yes, I know it's fix wing. But reading it in conjunction with the Dauphine crash, have any lessons been learned.

Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports (http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=13426&lang=ENG&loc=1652)

I doubt Brigadier General Paul Fry is happy with the level of funding he has to run the IAC. He has to make do with what he has. Does he turn around and tell the Ministers that the IAC are not capable of running this service?Yes, that is what he should have done and he should have outlined all the reasons why the Air Corps, as things stand cannot run the service safely. That's his job.

Accountability, something that is sorely lacking in the Irish public service.

You can argue that it was the pilot's fault for not seeing the powerline but you might equally argue that the General is at fault for placing him in that position in the first place.

I always had a high opinion of the Air Corps, that has sadly declined of late. Not least because of an incident I had a near miss with an Air Corps aircraft who despite the fact that both I and ATC had advised him of my presence, he breezed through just below me, either lost or uncaring. Unbelievable stuff that even a low time PPL wouldn't do.

With reference to that recent PC9 crash report , there is a very interesting section in it in relation to safety audits in the Flying School section of the IAC , apparently there were none available to the AAIU from 2004 -2009?
This coupled with the delays in the publiction of the report and attempts to prevent its publication should be a cause for concern .
Thankfully the 135 incident did not result in loss of life.

This is a safety record that helicopter operators the world over would love, which is why the Gardai are staying put.

The Gardai (Irish Police force) fought very hard to keep the Police helicopter away from the IAC. It spent a long time sitting in a hanger, about a year as I recall, in the UK until the issue was resolved. The Police very much wanted to bring in a civilian contractor to run it, the IAC felt that all flying jobs were theirs.

Perhaps he should if this is indeed the case but I doubt anyone in his shoes would. Instead he does his best, along with those below him, to try and get the job done.

So, allegedly, he knows they haven't got the capabilities and he sends the crews off like canon fodder anyway?

I have no "axe to grind" with the IAC but I am no fanboi or groupie either. The reports about the Dauphin and the PC-9 have covered these cultural and organizational deficiencies before and very little seems to have changed. That's the really astounding bit.

AW 139 on line today in Bal to cover HEMS.
The "boss" has pushed very hard for this. The same people in management roles since the Dauphin crash. How could they learn anything.
Unregulated non JAR compliant and unaudited. The HSE crews should take note.

Interestingly a previous state pathologist refused to fly to crime scenes etc. in Air Corps (including Garda) aircraft as if there was an accident he was uninsured.

Would HSE personnel be in a similar situation should an accident happen?

I have no axe to grind but have many friends flying on various HEMS operations in the UK, France and Germany and the safety record of all is as good or better than that shown in Ireland. I land in many unusual remote unrecced sites in an S92 in the course of my work and appropriate risk assessments are carried out on each occasion: Size, Shape, Slope, Surface, Surrounds, Entry, Exit, Emergencies. Seems like the site was not recce'd properly.

H

3x9Sk-SE8-E

well worth a watch!

Just the facts: Is your first language English?
What an embarrassing outburst for someone so ill equipped to comment.:=

The point's been made: these are regular troops doing as they are told. It is their management right up to their government who are letting everyone down.
I hope for the troopers' sake, their bosses get wind of this thread and take heed.
The clock is ticking guys - next time Pprune could be talking about another fatality in their fraternity.

What a condescending reply Thomas.

Justthefacts said he's a retired Garda. So his "first language" as you put it is actually Irish!
Seriously though, are his opinions not valid, seeing as he actually flew with the IAC? Or do you choose to ignore the first hand thoughts of the rear crew. I would have thought an ex-mil guy like yourself (RN weren't you?) would have more respect for their observations.

Is your first language English TC????

'The point's been made'

There are too many factually inaccurate assertions in this thread to even attempt to counter, but certainly your arrogance should not go unchecked!:oh:

Devastating counter argument TFive.

Calm down you lot.
There's enough (first hand) evidence here on this thread to condemn the IAC for their activities in HEMS. None of it is made up gibberish.
Ben Power, the fact that he was a police observer suggests and reminds me that he doesn't or couldn't tell a dodgy pilot if one sat on his lap! Non aircrew don't know when pilots are dangerous. All observers think their pilots are wonderful!
T5: I don't understand your post? What's wrong with "the point's been made"??

Guys get over it - the IAC are useless at HEMS. the end.

Justthefact,

I suggest you go to this thread linked below and particularly read post no: 25. I'm hazarding a quests here, but looks to me like it might possibly be written by a past member of the IAC giving a list of known, and I stress, known accidents and incidents. Makes for very interesting reading indeed.:ok:

PC 9 Crash report (http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?19940-PC-9-Crash-report)

:eek:

You would rather HEMS, and SAR were carried out the IAC :}

Most interesting how many of those accidents have been kept quiet.
Also worth a read, especially for those former GASU members....

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/3977-0.pdf

Note the PAS reservations about competence.

H

Well, well, lookee here: Thanks for this Hedski, this is the incident I was talking about earlier. Glad we also now have proof. Happy now T5?

Noticeably too, PAS expressed concern - coincidentally around the same time I was going thru PAS with the GASU too....

The CN235 incident involving a tree mentioned in the link scares the life out of me!!!!
:eek:

I see the 139 is now going to cover the unregulated HEMS op from Athlone for the weekend. Best of luck with that . Is it the same 139 that put out a PAN PAN call and landed on at Baldonnel with a possible over torque about 5 days before the 135 wire strike?

FADEC should prevent overtorque.

Overtorque should not require PAN unless other damage sustained.

H

AW139 does not have FADEC. It has a Torque Limiter but this has to be selected on otherwise an over torque is possible. To overtorque a 139 is quite a feat and would take an awful lot of effort.

I apologise in advance for banging on about this but the lack of experienced pilots in the global helicopter community is putting undue pressure an areas where either funds are in short supply or customer demand is irresistible. The days of using flight hours as a measure of competence are over given the plethora of guys with 1,000 times the same hour and the lack of transparency over logbook entries.

The true measure of competence is to ask the candidate to demonstrate his skills and if they are inadequate for the job envisaged then he MUST RECEIVE ADDITIONAL TRAINING which will include a programme of mentoring and adequate oversight and then and only then is he or she 'fit-for-purpose'.

If every helicopter operator ran that system we would be in the clear but most are managed by non-trainers who don't understand the impact that good training can have on the bottom line in the sense that your reputation is enhanced, more business comes your way and you suffer less fleet damage and fewer accidents. All they care about is that training (along with spares provisions) are invisible ingredients the customer cannot see therefore they are cut to the bone and WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE CONSEQUENCES.

It's not rocket-science - capable people do a good job, incapable people can bring you and your organisation down!!

G.

The PWC PT6C-67C has no FADEC??????

skadi

Geoffers,

Your desire to push the idea of a competence management system is admirable. The opposition it receives is similar in most cases: filthy lucre, cash and the lack of it, the desire to make money (in a commercial organisation) or reduce costs in a government one. And the thought or assumption that accidents are unlikely to happen. I am not saying this is right, just that it happens.

My understanding is that many IAC pilots leave as soon as they get a decent amount of experience to add to their training to build their competence levels, to be employable elsewhere.

I would venture a guess that they go because they can get paid more somewhere else. Probably the main reason that the default option for Irish government helicopter ops is to use the IAC is money (or a least a belief that using the IAC is cheaper).

If you can keep your accident rate down and not have a CMS you can save money/increase profit. However, if you start to amass a significant helicopter graveyard you maybe need a rethink. Even then, current cash and capital assets are often considered differently, for example in countries that are broke.

In some cases, it would appear that having accidents has pretty immediate serious adverse consequences to the operator (e.g. Bond losing offshore contracts after gearbox failures). In others (e.g. IAC) the same sort of consequences do not seem to have occurred yet.

Helicopter aviation is significantly different to most other industries. Its decisions are based on short term gain or loss considerations, more than pretty much any industry I can think of. Whilst pilots can move and are expected to move so often, the extent to which an operator will invest in training (and other things necessary for the achievement of competence) are limited.

Geoffers: How do you mentor/supervise SPIFR ops? How do you sit next to a guy trying to refresh his/her skills with EMS?

Exactly - you can't. This is the problem...the ONLY way of assessing is by the back door - do some phoning around and learn about the individual before they take the reins.
If on the other hand one ends up with a dud - get rid!:ugh:
[We don't want to end up like the US EMS fraternity now do we?]:eek:

Mentoring

HEMS London has a policy of mentoring its medics which is why it needs the extra seat in cabin. If you configure for mentoring then you can do it but you must include it in your master plan and tool-up for a 2-pilot operation.

It would be possible - if folk were rally interested - to do this in a number of ways.

1. You configure the aircraft for 2 pilot ops and put an extra seat in the cabin for Medic 2. You may lose a stretcher but no gain without pain.
2. NPAS can have one aircraft configured for training/mentoring.
3. Those AA counties with more than one aircraft can make some cash using one in the training configuration and help everyone move forward.
4. Mentoring SPIFR needs the same deal with the mentor acting as ballast and safety pilot at the same time.

No perfect solution is available but IT CAN BE DONE if the will is there and the understanding that you cannot send a newbie solo HEMS, Police, SAR, SPIFR or Fire Fighting without realising that the current system is not going to work without this vital ingredient.

A lot of work will be possible in the new (and cheaper) role- related sims - ask ADAC.

We need a process not a slap-happy approach to this serious business of asking young men and women to take on demanding roles without proper preparation.

G.

PS - Of course we will wait forever for the regulators to act on the question of 'mentoring' but it may just be possible for FOIs to interpret the current regulations in such a way that mentoring is recognised as best practice (like aircrew wearing goonsuits offshore which started as an operator choice and was then adopted as regulation) then the lack of a mentoring programme can be found to be 'inadequate' training and role preparation.

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202013-004_0.pdf


Only in Ireland. The military doing dedicate HEMS with civil medical crew and no external civil over sight.

You have got to be F#@<hidden> kidding me!!!

That should have been covered in Risk Assessment.!!
What about proper training!!!
What about HSE!!
What about High Low Recon!!!
What about pre approved / surveyed landing sites
What about getting an non biased report from independent 3rd party and not Ex Aircorps crew who are in the AAIU.!
What about the Tail strike earlier in the same week with the same machine at that barracks!!
Downwind shallow approach? with speed on, don't give you time to see and avoid wires.

So Sad and lucky no-one was hurt!!!

CVR tells me enough. He is being professional and is trying to do things properly. Two sets of eyes fail to spot the wires, they can be really hard to see. This is an operating risk, these things happen, unlucky not gash.
Move on, hems can bite, even with robust safety procedures.

Jay2: I hope you don't mind, but I have to disagree.

Wires are THE issue for HEMS drivers. NOTHING takes precedence during an approach NOTHING. Not radios, not press on itis. It's all down to crew preparation.

I remember as if it was yesterday, the brief we used to conduct:
Hi level cct. Low lvl cct. 5 x S's and shoot the approach.
No radio comms allowed.
Everyone eyes out.
First to spot wires MUST route them. If he/she can't route the wirtes, abandon the approach.
300 hems missions.
NO close shaves.

Hitting wires is a failure of human factors/CRM unfortunately.

TC, read the report FFS!

I agree with Jayteeto

TC, read the report FFS!

I agree with Jayteeto

X2.

500 Fan.

I'm with jayteeto....

I am required to do a full day of "Wire Training" each year. We take the course taught by Utilities Aviation Specialists (http://www.helicoptersafety.com/). I learn something new every year, (and I just did year 6). I also have attended many Human Factors courses---while not an expert by any means, I do believe I am getting a grasp on it.

While they could adjust some of their techniques for spotting the wires, (or more importantly---where the wires "could be, and not see"), they did most things right.

Yes it was a failure of "Human Factors"----I counter with---your eyes will lie to your brain and your brain will believe it..... therefore, not their fault, but the fault of our wiring--and lack of training to recognise the inherent faults in the system, (our bodies).

I will give you an example---be honest.....

Hint--concentrate on just the white shirt players:

vJG698U2Mvo

TC, I hear what you say and agree with what you say. I just believe that the CVR points to this guy trying to do exactly what you say. :ok:

Small point. The investigator is an Ex Air Corps engineeer, not crew at ff200 states. And he's a very professional and fair individual. So play the ball, and not the man.

Crew can also mean Engineer or Cabin crew,

Fair !! maybe It be fair to condemn the IAC or any AOC for carrying out missions that they were not prepared for.

500fan: chill out babes!
I did read the report (FFS).
If...IF one was to put it down to "comes with the territory", I think most of you here would have to accept that (considering possibly thousands of HEMS jobs are done every day globally) there would be a dramatic increase in accidents.
There aren't. Wire strikes during EMS are extremely rare...extremely rare!
Possibly running into barely double digits each year....GLOBALLY.

Why is that then? Luck has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's always down to the correct CRM/HF atmosphere in the cockpit.
During approaches (I'm wording carefully here) there is absolutely NO excuse for a wire strike, NONE. Pilot error. Crew either not up to speed with SOP's/standards/distraction, etc;
99.9% of all approaches are clean. 0.1 are flawed and that is down to duff pilots/crew. Simples.

TC, I hear what you say and agree with what you say. I just believe that the CVR points to this guy trying to do exactly what you say.

I agree. The crew made a human error on the day, despite their best efforts. No need to try and rubbish the whole outfit.

Easy for folks to criticise others and take a "holier than thou" attitude when they no longer fly themselves and are therefore no longer in danger of making a human error.

Shy: please don't make it personal. How do you know I don't still fly?
30 yrs and 7000hrs of emergency services flying gives me a little insight into how things tick. Please afford me that much, or has it all been for nowt:(

You disappoint me.

1) We all f*** up at times and makes mistakes - let's be glad no-one was hurt.

2) HEMS = Pressure - THIS CANNOT BE OVER EMPHASISED!!!!

3) I flew a lot of Powerline patrols prior to HEMS work - the 'T' pole stands out a mile to me in that aerial photo (I've even flown patrols for ESB). My powerline experience has stood me in very good stead for my wide range of onshore experience.

Would it not make sense for HEMS pilots to have some kind of powerline patrol experience / exposure prior to HEMS missions?

TC,

I see no reason for you to be disappointed by my post. Read your own posts again. You have made a highly personal, almost ranting attack against the crew involved in this unfortunate accident. I thought it appropriate to post a different view, seeing as that is my true opinion of the wire strike hazard, based on my own experience.

I could give you another ten years and almost another three thousand hours if you really want to wave logbooks about. I still have to carry out ad-hoc landings on occasions (single pilot) so I still consider myself at risk from the wire strike hazard. If you fly these days, then the latter comment obviously doesn't apply to yourself - but there are others on forum to whom it definitely does.

What about the Tail strike earlier in the same week with the same machine at that barracks!!

Funfinn2000: where did that come from? I didn't see it in the report. :confused:

Freespeed2

Free speed: That's because it was covered up by the Corps like a lot of other incidents that never "happened" with aircraft from Baldonnell.
:eek:

Yeah, No report done on it because it was never made official.

Oh that bit of bad luck as well....comes with the territory it seems. Just bad luck apparently. Oh...the luck of the Irish..................

[What's it this time Shytorque: something in the water, or could it be down to DUFF pilots:=

Quote:
What about the Tail strike earlier in the same week with the same machine at that barracks!!

Funfinn2000, can you elaborate on this incident, your sources, details on what happened etc?

There was am Incident when the tail hit a pole or a lamp-post, not sure how hard, no much more info. anyone else know more?

[What's it this time Shytorque: something in the water, or could it be down to DUFF pilots

Not sure where you're coming from this time - I've made no comment on the latter subject.

Sometimes people will disagree with an extreme view, as yours appears to be. :hmm:

HEMS = Pressure - THIS CANNOT BE OVER EMPHASISED!!!!

I disagree.

A pilot that is put under stress (pressure) simply due to the kind of mission he is flying, is in the wrong position (if this pressure leads to false decision making-or worse).

"Being a professional" is the difference between someone who is overwhelmed by his emotions while doing something, and someone who is able to put his emotions back, to do his job....

Gentlemen,
It may be worth just remembering that stress and pressure are not the same thing. The UK's Health and Safety Executive (HSE) offers a good definition of stress:

"The adverse reaction people have to excessive pressures or other types of demand placed on them at work."

Now, back to the serious pilots......:ok:
2S

There was am Incident when the tail hit a pole or a lamp-post, not sure how hard, no much more info. anyone else know more?

FF2000; OK so it appears that you don't have any definitive info on this alleged incident.

Free speed: That's because it was covered up by the Corps like a lot of other incidents that never "happened" with aircraft from Baldonnell.


Norunway: It seems that you have more info on this incident than FF2000. (I won't even ask about the bold sweeping statement of "a lot of other incidents" and focus on FF2000's reference that you confirmed.)

So:

Was it covered up by the pilot, crewman and a civilian paramedic who would have to fly in a potentially non-airworthy heli on the next mission? Don't forget the ground crew who were legally responsible for the helicopter's airworthiness as well.

Was it reported by the crew and covered up by those who received the report i.e the MAA/Flight Safety/Operations staff who all had little or nothing to gain by covering it up?

Or perhaps it was never reported because it never actually happened in the first place?

While I am aware that this is a 'rumour' network, I think to be fair to those involved you should provide some more detail on how you know about this specific alleged incident that was not in the AAIU report.

Freespeed you seem to want a lot of details!!

You from the Media!!!

Funfinn2000: where did that come from? I didn't see it in the report.

It was a simple question. I didn't ask for a lot of details. I simply asked where the story had come from;

Funfinn2000, can you elaborate on this incident, your sources, details on what happened etc?

Eurocopter Beans asked for the details...and no I'm not in the media.

Your answer clarified things from my perspective. As I said...it is a rumour network after all. Fair enough.

The second question was about the allegation in post #87 of a cover up by the Air Corps. That's a whole different thing. I was simply asking to what level this supposed cover up reached?

I don't think that it's fair to the pilots and crews who operate this service and are helping people on a daily basis, and who don't deserve to have such an allegation leveled against them.

Freespeed, read the entire thread from beginning to end to see there is no smoke without fire when it comes to this element of the Irish Air Corps.
It may be (hopefully) that they have cleaned their act up and for that to happen - takes time. This recent 'debacle' may have slowed the whole process down a little.............

It could be a Case for Mulder & Scully.