flight paths over london

[pat jones12]

I am not a pilot and apologise if my questions are simplistic.

I have lived near Fulham Broadway, in south west London, for many years.


1. For the first time I have noticed planes overhead. Have flight paths changed?



2. Web Trak, the web site which displays planes landing and taking off over London, shows that planes always meet at two points: over Wandsworth Bridge, for the southern runway, and over Fulham Broadway, for Heathrow's northern runway, as they make their final approaches to the airport. Web Trak shows that planes then always follow exactly the same route west to Heathrow. Is that correct? From the ground it looks like planes fly at different heights and follow different routes. Are flight paths over this part of London like motorway lanes rather than the narrow corridors shown on Web Trak? In other words, do planes can stray several miles either side of the centre line shown by Web Trak? (I appreciate that I am straying into highly technical areas here.)



3. Planes over Fulham and Wandsworth are higher than they are over Richmond yet sound much louder. Is there any reason for that? Or is it my imagination?


I hope someone can explain, in lay language.

Thanks in advance..

[DaveReidUK]

Many of your questions are answered here:

http://www.heathrowairport.com/static/Heathrow_Noise/Downloads/PDF/Arrivals11.pdf

[PAXboy]

Flight paths over London have been there for a long time. They are only noticeable on clear days when viewed from below, and if they leave condensation trails.

As I understand it, flight paths are typically from North America to/from Southern Europe for long haul. They are at 35,000 feet or greater (number of variables). I recall when commuting to Munich that we overflew Paris at high altitude. Same thing with London, we just happen to be on the best circle route for some city pairs.

For short haul, a map can show some obvious links that will also see the aircraft above 30,000 feet for the transit of London.

[chevvron]

Pat Jones 12:
Heathrow arrivals on 27L pass just south of Craven Cottage, whilst those for 27R pass overhead. They've been doing this since about 1950, so why you've only just noticed I don't know!
I know in Fulham Broadway you're closer to Stamford Bridge, but you must know thw Cottage too.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Remember that all traffic is under radar control so no "flight paths" are laid down. The actual tracks flown by the inbound aircraft will be entirely at the discretion of the radar controllers until they are final approach and then they flight straight to the airfield.

[DaveReidUK]

Remember that all traffic is under radar control so no "flight paths" are laid down. The actual tracks flown by the inbound aircraft will be entirely at the discretion of the radar controllers until they are final approach and then they flight straight to the airfield.

And "final approach" in the case of Heathrow is defined as 7.5 nautical miles from the runway threshold in daytime, and 10nm at night. Aircraft that aren't on the ILS (i.e. the runway centreline) by that point are classified as "late joins" and are reported as such.

The 7.5nm point is pretty well overhead either Craven Cottage or Putney Leisure Centre, depending on which runway is in use.

In practice, of course, aircraft tend to join the ILS and fly a straight approach much earlier than that, which is why Heathrow inbounds are a common sight over Stockwell, Lambeth, Battersea, etc.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<And "final approach" in the case of Heathrow is defined as 7.5 nautical miles from the runway threshold in daytime, and 10nm at night.>

Never seen the 7.5nm previously.

[DaveReidUK]

Never seen the 7.5nm previously.

This is defined in the quarterly/annual reports published by the BAA's Flight Evaluation Unit, see Heathrow Noise: Our reporting (http://www.heathrowairport.com/noise/what-we-do-about-it/our-reporting)

"Lates and Lows: During the daytime the aircraft are required to be "established" on the ILS at 7.5nm from touchdown. This equates to approximately 2500ft aal. At night the distance is extended to 10nm which equates to approximately 3000ft aal."

The AIP puts it slightly differently, referring only to height (actually AMSL, not AAL) rather than distance from the threshold, but the net effect is the same:

"Between 0600 and 2330 hours (local time) where the aircraft is approaching runway 27 (L or R) and is using the ILS in IMC or VMC it shall not descend on the glidepath below an altitude of 2500 ft (Heathrow QNH) before being established on the localizer, nor thereafter fly below the glidepath."

The ILS approach plates for Heathrow also define 7.5nm as the Final Approach Point (FAP).

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK thanks. I must ask some of my ATC colleagues about that. It's certainly been introduced since I retired.... which, OK, is a l-o-n-g time ago!

[Talkdownman]

OK, then, what would BAA call the Aer Lingus 'Voiscount' that flew down the M4 Spur to win a bet from a certain Oirish Heathrow ATCO: ''Foive quid you can't turn foinal inside the 28-Roight Middle Marker". The ATCO lost, and ran down to T1 to pay the crew their foive quid. Dear Old HD might remember that. Just imagine it now...

7.5 nm? Not in my time either HD...! T'was great fun to witness the occasional plan view turn-on inside the OM...! Aer Lingus freighters and Midland Nines etc...

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Oh yes, the irrepressible KS (assisted by AC)

[PAXboy]

Talkdownman After reading that - I had to read and re-read. The M4 spur???? And then 90 degrees Starboard and land???

Even without looking at the map that is .... well, I don't have words! :eek:

We all know that things were different 'back in the day' but one is torn between thinking that they were all bonkers and yet, an admiration! One might guess that some pax were hysterical and others thought it entirely normal!

Had there have been cell phones with cameras in those days, it would have made a great pic on the front pages!

[Talkdownman]

The Tower controller couldn't believe it either. He saw some lights to the north so 'phoned down to approach to ask 'who's that coming down H9?'.

The boundaries were somewhat different in those days...like some 'interesting' and optimistic switching runways (days before 'stabilised approaches'...) and some fly-bys from F111s dumping and torching. When it was slack (yes, slack...) if there was anything interesting on Special we'd ask it to do a fly by...eg. a formation of Daks. HD might have a few stories, he was there in even madder times...

[PAXboy]

Are we talking the 1950s? Surely not much beyond the mid-60s for those kinds of antics??

I looked at old maps and current for that 'Spur approach' and I can imagine that a well built machine like the Viscount could make such a turn. Did the Viscount have reverse pitch or was it all on the brakes?

[Geezers of Nazareth]

fly-bys from F111s dumping and torching

I'd be extremely surprised if that ever happened ... fly-bys - yes maybe, but dumping and torching - no way Jose!

I personally saw a RAF Tornado do an approach and fly-by late one evening, and I've got a vague recollection of an A-10 doing the same.

I suppose that we'll never get to the bottom of the story of the Chipmunk!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I'd be extremely surprised if that ever happened ... fly-bys - yes maybe, but dumping and torching - no way Jose!>>

Well I'm terribly sorry old chap, but it really DID happen!! Had the whole of Hounslow ringing ATC and the police.

[betterfromabove]

Heard the F111 fly-by story from a reliable source too.....incident I heard about involved a series of fly-by's that got lower and lower over several nights. And all coordinated by LON MIL no less.

Yes, sure the fine folks of Hounslow would have finally lost patience at that point.