I am reliably informed that the election for the Jetstar PC is about to be decided with one pilot firmly pushing MOU termination front and center. The old MOU elephant has been hiding for a number of years and has been prodded into the limelight. It will be intriguing to see if AIPA can wield enough power and prevail in getting their reps elected given that AIPA drafted the MOU and it would appear that the only beneficiaries are Qantas pilots. AIPA have been making and renewing an exemption to section 312 of the Fair Work Act to ensure they can continue to access the commands in Jetstar while the Jetstar pilots have been trying to shut it down. It all makes for an interesting election.

MOU has favoured Qantas pilots SO FAR.:ok:
If times change and Qantas expands again then it could go the other way.;)
I was only talking to a fairly senior J* Captain the other day who is very interested once a Command number comes up with the MOU.:E

PS: it doesn't affect me either way.:cool:

That JPC nominee is an AFAP aligned pilot and only needs to read MOU clause 3.3.4 to realise he will be on a hiding to nothing in his quest.

He will have the support of a large number of JQ pilots regardless of union affiliation, however I won't be putting any money on his success.

The MOU has been in place since 2004, well before many of the current JQ pilots were even employed there. The MOU was not a secret, so anyone joining post MOU did so knowing being affected by the MOU was always a possibility.

At the risk of igniting another debate, it's like QF pilots complaining about LOA161 cadet seniority. I'm not a cadet, I'm adversely affected by it, but it was in place well before I joined so I suck it up and get on with it.

Yep, wind up alert. To terminate the MOU both AIPA and JPC have to agree (and it also has to go to a vote for both QF and JQ pilots).

The MOU was signed almost a decade ago and for the majority of that time the company has failed to honour it, allowing hundreds of JQ FOs to gain their commands ahead of their QF colleagues. I'd love to hear your explanation as to why JQ pilots have been disadvantaged.

also both companies need to agree.

Livs Hairdresser

I think the reply would be along the lines of..."how many JQ pilots have been allowed access to QF jobs in the life of the MOU".

Moot point. QF in its current form is not much longer for this world. Sad as it is.

Ben B is dreaming. He is just angry.

"how many JQ pilots have been allowed access to QF jobs in the life of the MOU"

All of them (the eligible ones that is). It's just that with the stagnation in promotion, with their seniority they would have got jobs as SOs. Or are you suggesting they should be able to go straight to an A380 command. And it still doesn't explain how they have been disadvantaged by their accelerated commands.

And that is where your view diverges from many others.

To my knowledge zero MOU spots have been advertised to JQ pilots. Would love to be proven wrong.

What do you mean by "accelerated commands"? The company they had the (mis)fortune to work for grew rapidly for a while. According to Mr BB nearly 100 JQ FO's have been beaten to their "accelerated commands" by QF pilots.

“All of them (the eligible ones that is). It's just that withthe stagnation in promotion, with their seniority they would have got jobs asSOs. Or are you suggesting they should be able to go straight to an A380command. And it still doesn't explain how they have been disadvantaged by theiraccelerated commands.”

LH you are incorrect.
JQ have 129 eligible pilots that qualify for the MOU and there have been ZERO opportunities afforded to these pilots.

QANTAS have been gifted 97 opportunities (currently) to be precise, of which 90 for command. JQ currently have 395 Captains in OZ (including MMT), so 90 of 395 equates to 23% of JQ commands have been filled by QF MOU pilots.

“4.1 The intension of this MOU is to provide for the reciprocal exchange of career opportunities”

There is no reciprocity here!!!!


“That JPC nominee is an AFAP aligned pilot and only needs to read MOU clause 3.3.4 to realise he will be on a hiding to nothing in his quest.

He will have the support of a large number of JQ pilots regardless of union affiliation, however I won't be putting any money on his success.”

I agree the votes required to cancel the MOU will not be favourable, however with the impending EBA (March 2013) the removal of all enabling clauses from the EBA will render the MOU document obsolete.

Fair enough. It was my understanding that while JQ was expanding rapidly the company wasn't willing to release anyone to mainline. Basically, it's down to the company honouring the MOU when it suits them - in either direction. That's something that's out of both AIPA's and the JPC's control.

What do you mean by "accelerated commands"? The company they had the (mis)fortune to work for grew rapidly for a while. I'm sure if you were an FO there, you'd be quite happy to take your "accelerated command".

Agree with all of that, and good luck to you. The point I was making was the that the OP stated that the MOU disadvantaged the JQ guys which, considering the rapid expansion there, sounds to me like having your cake and eating it too.

Just because a new EBA might no longer refer to the MOU, doesn't make the MOU any less relevant or enforceable.

"Just because a new EBA might no longer refer to the MOU, doesn't make the MOU any less relevant or enforceable"

You may want to get some legal advise on that one................. We have!

According to Mr BB nearly 100 JQ FO's have been beaten to their "accelerated commands" by QF pilots.

How many of those 100 were MOU pilots?

A bit of fire in your belly there, ratherbefishintoday?

How many of those 100 were MOU pilots?

Assume you're talking JQ pilots? Probably none.

But by the same token, of those QF pilots that did take JQ commands, how many of them were sneering, laughing and pointing at JQ pilots in 2004 and thinking that never in a million years they'd actually be voluntarily be bidding for a JQ job themselves?

Ratherbefishing

If you've had legal advice to that effect, you'd get significantly more votes to your JPC nomination if you let that advice be known.

Waren,

Yes back then it was all "oh you bunch of .... undercutting.... to hell with ..>>" and so on.

In the next breath "I'd like to tap into that growth" and "command? yes please!"...

:rolleyes: Pilots....!!!:ok:

There is no reciprocity here!!!!


In that case pull your finger out and ask J* management why QF management haven't advertised any QF slots as being available to J* pilots under the MoU.

Have you written to AIPA and asked them to fight on your behalf or are you one of those guys that doesn't 'need' AIPA? Asked AFAP to do something about it? Done anything apart from trying to circumvent the MoU?

Qantas has had a bunch of F/O slots in that time that eligible J* pilots could have bid for. Oh wait, they were probably J* Captains and didn't want to bid for the F/O slot even though they may have been on better money. Oh wait, given the J* rates these days they probably would have been on significantly less money than as a J* captain.

You don't hear me bitching that if I took a J* MOU slot now that I'd be JUNIOR to the QF bloke about 600 numbers junior to me who took an MOU slot already simply because he jumped earlier. I mean seriously! :ugh: :rolleyes:

I guess the other issue is that you don't like the fact is that people who joined the Qantas group in mainline more than 8 years ago get the opportunity to go for a command in J* (a 'Qantas Group Airline') ahead of people who joined the 'Qantas Group' less than 8 years ago. :ugh: :rolleyes: Is that the issue? You're one of those guys that has been a part of the group less than 8 years and are hacked off that those who have been in the group longer than you get first dibs?

Wow? Getting something removed from the EBA which is not part of the EBA - Impressive!

From the Jetstar EBA

"The MOU is referred to in this Agreement and may be used to assist in the interpretation of provisions included in this Agreement, but does not form part of this Agreement."

Also interesting to note is that only pilots employed at the time when the MOU came into effect (Nov 2004) are eligible to vote to have it terminated (under MOU clause).

"a 'majority of Jetstar pilots' means a majority of Jetstar pilots who are employed as a pilot with Jetstar on the day that this MOU comes into effect and are continuously employed with Jetstar from that day until the time the decision to terminate is made...."

Since probably every Jetstar pilot employed as at Nov 2004 has a command, would they vote to get rid of it? I would think it might be a nice thing to have in the back pocket should one day Jetstar turn to crap and mainline goes gangbusters!

The The,
Great post mate. Your right.
Makes you wonder how smart the guys on the JPC are posting false hopes to their collegues in a hope of getting some desperate votes.

But by the same token, of those QF pilots that did take JQ commands, how many of them were sneering, laughing and pointing at JQ pilots in 2004 and thinking that never in a million years they'd actually be voluntarily be bidding for a JQ job themselves?

Aside from being emotional, petty and wrong, what's any of that got to do with the legalities of the MOU?

I saw how angry JQ pilots got when the company reneged on a verbal agreement to keep widebody commands in Australia and offshored them to SIN. I can fully understand that and support it. Why is it so hard to understand that mainline pilots would like the company to honour a written agreement, the MOU?

I am reliably informed that the election for the Jetstar PC is about to be decided with one pilot firmly pushing MOU termination front and center. The old MOU elephant has been hiding for a number of years and has been prodded into the limelight. It will be intriguing to see if AIPA can wield enough power and prevail in getting their reps elected given that AIPA drafted the MOU and it would appear that the only beneficiaries are Qantas pilots. AIPA have been making and renewing an exemption to section 312 of the Fair Work Act to ensure they can continue to access the commands in Jetstar while the Jetstar pilots have been trying to shut it down. It all makes for an interesting election.

You lot are dreaming.

The MOU doesn't benefit Qantas pilots, it benefits Qantas.

Do you really think Qantas wants to pay out millions in redundancies when it can use this vehicle to transfer surplus to another entity for minimal cost???

Big picture stuff people, we are only numbers in a large organisation, Qantas won't and don't give a sh#t what the JPC or for that matter what AIPA think of the MOU, it saves them a motza and will continue to be utilised. So this dips#$t that thinks he will have any influence needs to take his hand off his middle pole and put it back on the sidestick.

As I said, Big picture stuff people...... :ugh:

Reminds me of my daughter. I bought her a new car for her 18th and now she won't let me drive it.

Kellykelpie.

Bingo!! :ok:

This thread yet again shows there are some real tossers in this game. I love the use of the term 'gifted' for the QF pilots who have used a legal document agreed to by both parties to move to Jetstar. Maybe Joyce was right- there really are some guys in cloud cuckoo land.

Outside Limits,

A bloke like BB does not have to be desperate for votes. He puts a lot of his own time into Jetstar industrial issues and has wide spread support across the company. Time that could be better spent with a wife and young family.

He is one of the most intelligent and ethical pilots in the industry unlike many of his peers.

There seems to be a lot of ignorance about why the MOU was instituted and who can access it. None of the current J* F/O group can access it to get positions in QF unless they were in J*in 2004! All the QF pilots who have come over have to make a BIG decision in 3 years time as to whether they will stay or go back to QF. They are also a bit naive if they think that QF and J* will simply extend it for another 3 years. They haven't yet to my knowledge so all the J* F/O's jumping up and down might get their chance in less than 3 years. Noone has a right to a command. It reminds me of the QF F/Os getting upset with the over 60 pilots not retiring "They are holding onto MY Command!" If a J* F/O wants his/her command there are plenty of opportunities in NZ and Darwin. "But why should I have to move!" is the refrain, well that is a choice, the same choice that the QF pilots have made to come to J*.

As I said, Big picture stuff people

I think you'll find the BIG PICTURE was sold off over ten years ago. There is no big picture just greed and utter mind blowing incompetence.

When QF transferred the A330's to Jetstar, the result was an instant surplus of QF pilots sitting around doing nothing whilst Jetstar continued to recruit DEC's and F/O's. Only a handful of QF were given an opportunity to transfer to the Jetstar A330's. All this because of someone's ideology about"polluting" the Jetstar culture. Certainly no Big Picture there, just a massive waste of resources.

He is one of the most intelligent and ethical pilots in the industry unlike many of his peers.

If he is so ETHICAL, why seek to tear up a signed written agreement? Put it to a vote of eligible pilots (employed as at Nov 04) - now that would be ETHICAL!

Rome is burning, and you blokes are fiddling over the MOU.

Pathetic. So glad my time in this joke of an industry is nearly up. :ugh::yuk::mad:

There isn't much that is "ethical" about Jetstar, or it's parent of late.

All this because of someone's ideology about"polluting" the Jetstar culture.

Ironic isn't it? Now the little irish Pr@<hidden>#k himself is polluting everyones culture. :hmm:

all the J* F/O's jumping up and down

a bloke i know joined as a CRZ FO, and kept yapping on about how he should get 'his' command in 18 months 'provided some prick from QF doesn't steal it'.

What is it about Aussie pilots that make us all think we are entitled to a command? Especially in such a ridiculously short amount of time??

The MOU required 4 parties to agree to its implementation and requires the same 4 parties to agree to its termination.

One of those parties is Qantas pilots employed prior to 2004.

The MOU will not disappear despite what some paid for legal advice says. Remember that all parties to a hearing have paid for legal advice and one of them nearly always loses.

Any hearing would go to the intent of the document. Those involved in its creation and the negotiations surrounding that event know exactly what was intended and would gladly tell the judge. :D

Couple of things about the JPC

1 The JPC only exist to represent JQ pilots under the JQ eba (oz). Their purpose is to consult with the company regarding certain matters that relate specifically to the EBA. Safety, training, rostering, establishment and so on. this happens at Jetstar pilot consultative council meetings.

2 The JPC are not an incorporated organisation in the way a union or association is. This means it cannot enter into industrial agreements or contracts. It exists only inside the JQ EBA that was negotiated by the AFAP. (don't think AIPA were party to that one?). The upcoming EBA will be negotiated by AIPA and AFAP. NOT JPC. Not withstanding the obvious close relationship JPC have with the AFAP.


Extract from the JQ EBA (my bolding)


15. WORKPLACE CONSULTATION

15.1 Jetstar Pilot Consultative Council (JPCC)

Jetstar will implement a communication and consultation process with the JPA
whereby ways to resolve operational issues and recommend solutions and
improvements over a range of areas including safety will be discussed. The
purpose of this process is to give everybody a voice, prioritise and resolve issues, and learn from others. The collective group made up of Jetstar Management and representatives of the JPA will meet as the Jetstar Pilots Consultative Council (JPCC). The JPCC may invite other relevant persons to attend meetings as they see fit.

15.2 The primary roles of the JPCC are:

(a) to assist Jetstar in handling challenges and changed circumstances that may arise due to the growth of Jetstar;

(interesting that the JPC are only "primarily" involved in the GROWTH of JQ)

(b) to provide a forum for consultation with pilots on workplace issues (including changes to Jetstar policies and procedures) that affect them.



Couple of extracts from the MOU abbreviated for clarity.

3.2 This MOU will terminate when the last eligible Qantas pilot (as defined)
and the last eligible Jetstar pilot (as defined) has enjoyed one
opportunity to apply for a vacancy under this MOU and, if appointed,
has completed the fixed term engagement arising from that
appointment.

3.3 Notwithstanding clause 3.2, if both AIPA and the Pilot Council agree
that the exchange of career opportunities between Qantas and Jetstar
pilots is not being achieved pursuant to this MOU, then AIPA and the
Pilot Council may jointly terminate this MOU

3.3.4 the decision to terminate this MOU must first be endorsed by
a majority of Jetstar pilots and a majority of Qantas pilots;


As THE THE pointed out . . .

"Since probably every Jetstar pilot employed as at Nov 2004 has a command, would they vote to get rid of it? I would think it might be a nice thing to have in the back pocket should one day Jetstar turn to crap and mainline goes gangbusters!"

You really think the eligible pilots will seek to kill the MOU given the current instability??? Q jumpers around for a little while yet.


What "What The" said also.

I can understand that many existing Jetstar F/Os (and indeed some base-locked Captains) are frustrated by Qantas pilots coming across. It's similar to the frustration many of those Qantas pilots experienced as most Group expansion and opportunity took place in Jetstar over the last 8 years. While the MOU is an inefficient instrument, it still conforms with group seniority and provides a limited means for eligible pilots to access 'opportunities'.

As for reciprocity, did any eligible Jetstar pilots actively seek out a Perth 737 F/O vacancy in Qantas?

Or even a bid to S/O on the 380? Lol forget commands! Ride the gravy train while it lasts! :ok:

Can't bid for something never advertised.

Not once since 2004 has QF advertised positions to JQ Pilots. Which was the MOU deal. If spots where available they would be advertised, as the last 90 odd JQ commands where advertised to QF Pilots and taken.

Nothing to do with Pilots. Its all management manipulation to suit them selves.

Eastmoore,

Many JQ positions were similarly not advertised within QF for many years. It was only after significant agitation on the part of a number of QF people that JQ slots are now advertised within QF. Obviously management desire to solve the excess crew problem has been a large part of that too.

Has there been similar agitation within JQ to get QF slots advertised there? How many JQ pilots want access to the very few slots that there have been in QF over the last few years?

To get rid of the MOU would be very short sighted IMHO. Yes, at the moment, there has been movement one way. That doesn't mean that it won't work well for JQ pilots going the other way in the future.

The most recently graduated QF F/O, on the 737, has been in QF for well over 10 years. (Incidentally, he was part of the QF32 crew in QF's Singapore A380 incident.)
I would bet there a are nil JQ pilots with the same QF-group service period who are not Captains already. Are the agitators saying that slots in QF should be advertised to JQ pilots who, despite being 'junior' to the latest QF promotee, and who are already captains, might be interested in a 737F/O position in QF?
Eastmoore, get your peers to chill a bit.

Jetsbest, I would gladly take your money! The majority of the 129 JQ pilots that qualify for the MOU have between 11 to 22 years of service.

Would they move for a FO position in QF?
Who knows, they have NEVER been given the opportunity!

So I'll repeat the earlier question that I and others have put to you. Have they asked for the opportunity? Have they complained to J* management? The AFAP or AIPA? QF management?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

Ratherbefishintoday

Would they move for a FO position in QF?
Who knows, they have NEVER been given the opportunity!


The reason Jetstar pilots haven't been given the opportunity is because there are no opportunities in Qantas - Jetstar has expanded, while Qantas has shrunk. Good luck to Jetstar pilots for making the most of it. But please don't complain that you are now missing out on Qantas opportunities....

Come on Keg.

If you were a Capt in the base of your choice for a growing company, would you really be asking for the "opportunity" to go take a demotion and base change and likely a chop in pay to go work for a company thats doing a bloody good impression of the Hindenberg?

Your question is both rhetorical and moot.

Tell me this, is there anyone who joined J* before the MOU was signed that is still an F/O in J*?

Yes there is.

So why don't they have a command? Have they not applied? They are more senior to the QF guys according to the MOU.

Still an FO, or an FO again?

Waren9, me? No. But I'm not the one bitching about not being provided with the opportunity. Ratherbefishintoday is the one complaining about eligible J* crew not being given opportunities to come to QF on the MOU. I'm asking him if they've ever asked for those opportunities. I'd be nothing short of stunned if any of them have ever seriously raised the issue.

If they've never asked or enquired about why they couldn't bid for QF slots, ratherbefishintoday needs to get over himself and get on with life.

If they've never asked or enquired about why they couldn't bid for QF slots

Like some QF pilots did in relation to the MOU, before the slots were advertised. The surplus accelerated the level of wider enthusiasm.

Indeed, there are a number of QF drivers who made enquiries some years ago by put weren't released by QF due to temporary crew shortages in some categories. Now they're too junior to get a slot under the MoU.

I don't understsand what you're saying so please explain; how does one get 11-22 years of service in a company barely ten years old (in its current guise and as it pertains to this MOU agreement)?
How are there 129 pre-2004 F/Os in JQ who are not yet captains when so many post-2004 are already captains. Are the same people angry that their company has taken DECs from outside their owner's group during the same period?

Many on Pprune advise; if you don't like the employment conditions leave;and I know that's simplistic. But I'm also struggling with the logic which would usurp another's options and/or entitlements when there's never been a secret about the MOU. The frustration should be directed at the people who evidently misled you into believing the "absolute certainty" of a command inside 'x' years.

All anyone is doing is playing by the rules.... get with the game. :hmm:

Post #29 by Balance sums it up perfectly.:ok:

This industry is screwed by the very people perpetuating the problems.

And it seems to me that this is endemic to predominantly Australians.

As Balance said, this industry is a joke.

Jetsbest.. The most recently graduated QF F/O, on the 737, has been in QF for well over 10 years.

Just to set the record straight, pretty sure it's closer to 8yrs. Not well over 10 yrs, but still a loooong time!

I don't understsand what you're saying so please explain; how does one get 11-22 years of service in a company barely ten years old (in its current guise and as it pertains to this MOU agreement)?

Have a read of the MOU. There was life before Jetstar.


How are there 129 pre-2004 F/Os in JQ

There aren't. There might be 3.

Those JQ pilots upset about the current situation with the MOU are less upset at fellow QF pilots, than their own "eligible" colleagues that were suckered into signing a document that had a carrot of a high paying QF job that was never going to happen when they were still getting over the shock of having the 1900's being swapped out for 717's.

Not sure what the QF pilots excuse for agreeing to their own B scale future was. Insurance policy maybe?

Hindsight we are finding is a beautiful thing. Dixons plan was in train back then.

The F/O's who joined prior to 2004 have been deemed unsuitable for command. The other F/O's being delayed for command due to arriving Q numbers have delayed their command waiting for their base of choice. They could of done a DRW cmd some time back. So its alot to do with base decisions not cmd opportunity also !

I don't think management have to divide and conquer. I believe that they now just have to conquer us.




Clark y.

I'll go one step further than outside limits post and state that the only way a pre 2006 JQ F/O is not a captain is because they were 1) unsuitable 2) waiting for a wide body command 3) not willing to change base, end of story.
As far as QF commands go, friend of mine took 15 years to get 767 command, have another friend who is 73 effo for 8 years on east coast and the only way he will get a command any time soon is to move or commute, both of these based on seniority not suitability.

Waren9, you basically hit the nail on the head however I don’t begrudge anyone utilising the MOU as it stands, I dispute the document itself!

It’s a BS agreement constructed by AIPA and as Waren9 pointed out pushed at a pilot group coping with massive movement, at the time. Clause 11.3 (below) is another example of the complete bias this agreement has towards the JQ community. This is a clause which doesn’t go both ways, hence 97 QF opportunities to ZERO JQ opportunities.

11.3At any given point in time the cumulative total number of Jetstar pilots whohave been appointed (whether on a fixed term or permanent basis) to Qantas under this clause cannot exceed the cumulative total number of:

11.3.1Qantas pilots appointed to Jetstar in accordance with clause 7.7.3; plus

11.3.2‘ghost' numbers created for Qantas pilots in Jetstar in accordance with clause8.1,

Providedthat when a number is returned to the sequence of numbers under clause 11.12 it will at that time be subtracted from the cumulative total of Jetstar appointments. If the effect of this clause 11.3 is to ration the number of Jetstar pilots who may be appointed to Qantas, then the unused ‘ghost' numbers will remain until they can be activated.

Why wouldn’t we feel ripped off?

Yep, so just what I thought. It hasn't affected anyone who was employed before the MOU was signed.

So the new recruits after 2004, that haven't got a command, are blowing up even though they signed a contract in which they knew the MOU was in force. Let me guess, the one who is running for this position is an F/O?

Look, I'm glad you guys are keen to get into the left seat ASAP but there is more to being an airline Captain on a high performance jet than sitting in the right seat for 2-3 years. Maybe just chill out and learn from some guys who come over with a minimum of 8 years experience of flying around the QF network.

Ratherbefishing,

Did AIPA hold a gun to head of the JPC to sign the MOU?

Maybe the JPC of the day should have had the document better checked instead of thinking they were feathering their own nest incase of Jetstar going backwards.

Personally, I felt ready for command after about 5 years minimum
In the rhs of a jet, and that's AFTER being an s/o.

My ego said I was ready earlier, but my brain knew better.

More time observing more experienced guys operating is only a good thing.

IMHO

Ratherbefishintoday,

Or the other side of the coin, there are 97 spots available in QF if/when promotion starts moving again.

What JQ pilots want are commands allocated in accordance with their agreement. The MOU provides for an exchange of career opportunities. This is not happening and the JPC election is an appropriate forum to start a debate or gain a mandate to make changes. If they don’t get in, nothing changes. If they do get a mandate to make changes, well then it is a different ball game. At least it is out in the open. The JQ pilots decide who to back.

Livs Hairdresser
allowing hundreds of JQ FOs to gain their commands ahead of their QF colleagues. I'd love to hear your explanation as to why JQ pilots have been disadvantaged.

How about the 90 commands that have gone to QF pilots for nothing in return. Does that sound like a disadvantage to you Liv if you were a JQ FO?


Oliver Klozoff
The MOU has been in place since 2004, well before many of the current JQ pilots were even employed there. The MOU was not a secret, so anyone joining post MOU did so knowing being affected by the MOU was always a possibility.

Agreed. But any prospective pilot who read the MOU saw clause 4.1. “The intention of this MOU is to provide for the reciprocal exchange of career opportunities.” A number of QF pilots work for Jetstar and equally a number of JQ pilots work for Qantas. Now, a reasonable person would see this as a zero sum game, and if not a zero sum game then certainly not 100 to zip. What should they wait for? 200 to zip? 500 to zip? Clearly a reciprocal exchange is not happening and they have every right to want change.

Reciprocal- Adjective
Of a feeling, action or such: mutual, uniformly felt or done by each party towards the other or others; two-way.


Waren 9
Just because a new EBA might no longer refer to the MOU, doesn't make the MOU any less relevant or enforceable.

The MOU is subservient to both the Jetstar EBA and the Qantas LH and SH agreements. As such, if the Jetstar EBA does not reference/mention/enable the MOU, or specifically excludes ghost numbers, how does one expect to transfer to a Q number that does not exist? Likewise, Qantas could remove the enabling clauses out of their agreement rendering it impossible for JQ pilots to transfer to Qantas. I would put money on it that if 100 JQ pilots had taken 100 QF commands and no QF pilot had transferred to Jetstar then there would be a push for this exact thing to happen.


Keg
I guess the other issue is that you don't like the fact is that people who joined the Qantas group in mainline more than 8 years ago get the opportunity to go for a command in J* (a 'Qantas Group Airline') ahead of people who joined the 'Qantas Group' less than 8 years ago. Is that the issue? You're one of those guys that has been a part of the group less than 8 years and are hacked off that those who have been in the group longer than you get first dibs?

Jetstar is ‘a separate and distinct business.” (to quote the MOU). The issue is Jetstar giving away commands to another separate and distinct business for nothing in return. There is no group opportunity list, and the argument is whether JQ want to continue with the status quo or seek to make changes.

The The
Wow? Getting something removed from the EBA which is not part of the EBA - Impressive!

From the Jetstar EBA

"The MOU is referred to in this Agreement and may be used to assist in the interpretation of provisions included in this Agreement, but does not form part of this Agreement."

Do you understand irony? You talk about getting something removed from the Jetstar EBA which is not part of the EBA (your words) and then refer the EBA quoting one of the enabling clauses. You should also have a look at clauses 21.2, 21.3, 21.4 and 21.5. Ask yourself what would happen if all these clauses were removed. Or if the JQ pilots voted in an EBA that specified that no further access to ghost numbers would be provided until an equal number (90 at this stage) of JQ pilots had taken a command in Qantas. Or maybe they have the s**ts and they will vote in an EBA that specifically removes ghost numbers from the seniority list. Who knows, but there are many ways to skin a cat.

The JPC have the ability to vary seniority under clause 21.11. Maybe a new JPC who is strongly opposed to further unfairness will exploit a situation (and this clause) to exclude further allocation of opportunities to Q numbers until a number of JQ pilots transfer to Qantas under the MOU.

History shows that when you oppress someone, generally they will rise up against that oppression. The MOU is an dreadfully biased document that aids QF pilots at the expense of new JQ FO’s. You all seem to be telling them to toughen up princesses, get used to it. They are fighting back. If the JQ pilots vote in the AFAP pilots who want changes, is AIPA going to work with them to make those changes?

AIPA are going to have a choice to make. If the JQ pilots vote for change, they either work with the JPC to achieve reciprocal exchange of career opportunities OR they can burn them (and the 300 odd JQ members). Burning them will force them to either use the EBA negotiation to rid themselves of the MOU or a deal under 21.11 or some other way. Either way, the application of the MOU in its current form will change, its just a matter of if AIPA want to be part of it. The AFAP will be involved by nature of representing their members who want it ended.

Ultimately democracy is a great leveler. The JQ pilots will either vote for the people who have demonstrated a willingness to stop further commands being given away, or they will vote for the AIPA ticket who wont.

Keith,

My mates at JQ tell me the guys who are on the AIPA ticket are willing to look at changing the MOU if the pilots want it!

Are you telling us that the AIPA JPC wannabees are completely against the removal of the MOU?

Also, call me a conspiracy theorist, but by the looks of it you've found a way to divide the pilot group nearing an EBA negotiation.....

smart move:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Keith.

Maybe if you and your mates had not vexatiously and deliberately undercut QF pilots then we would feel a bit more charitable about your current predicament.

Pre 1989 this would have constituted scabbing. I know what I still call it in my mind. Earlier posts saying that the individuals pushing the 'end of MOU' agenda are 'moral' is therefore sickening in the extreme.

Jetstar might be a 'separate company' for strict legal purposes, but practically all its international operations lose $hit tins of money, and simply would not exist with Qantas subsidisation.

Whilst this has no bearing on which pilots get what seats, it does mean that the company will continue to use the MOU to avoid paying redundancies as it massively downsizes the mainline pilot body in the next few years.

Jetstar is a mature, major airline group now. Historically, in other such airlines it has taken 10-15 years to command. Regardless of the MOU, that would be your reality. You all need to get used to it.

The fact that a handful of Gen Y 'I want everything and I want it now' wonders have now been slightly disadvantaged is a set of circumstances that are par for the course across the industry. You all need to get used to that also

With up to 1000 QF pilots about to me made redundant / demoted mostly because of the JPC's action, lets see how much sympathy the JQ pilot group has when said pilots are forced overseas and / or made bankrupt as part of losing their jobs.

Keith:

Jetstar is ‘a separate and distinct business.” (to quote the MOU).

Funny how that isn't the case when it comes to fudging the numbers and placing Jetstars costs against Qantas International.

Mohikan said:

Maybe if you and your mates had not vexatiously and deliberately undercut QF pilots then we would feel a bit more charitable about your current predicament.

Agreed. And for that reason I couldn't give a fat rats what you want now.

In time you and your mates will learn about being undercut in this idiotic race to the bottom. You've already seen glimpses with overseas basings. That will only continue, and you will feel the pain of your QF predecessors. I doubt they will have much sympathy.

Meanwhile Rome continues burning.

How about the 90 commands that have gone to QF pilots for nothing in return. Does that sound like a disadvantage to you Liv if you were a JQ FO?

When I went to school, 7/20ths of 395 was about 138. By the letter of the MOU, that's still a shortfall of 48 commands that should have gone to QF pilots. Keep your chin up mate, you're still ahead.

“The intention of this MOU is to provide for the reciprocal exchange of career opportunities.”

As has repeatedly been asked and you guys repeatedly seem to ignore - if you were genuinely concerned about reciprocal exchange what approaches to the company have you made to try and remedy the situation? What was their response? How many JQ MOU pilots have actually expressed interest in bidding across to mainline?

Or is this just a convenient excuse to try and shaft QF pilots? .... again.

Well said Keith!!

These skygods are taking wats righfully ours:=

its about time we 2nd class jocks (in the eyes of the chosen gravey train QF overlords) rose up and revolted:ok:

Enuf is enuf with us getting the scraps:mad:

Keith,

What JQ pilots want are commands allocated in accordance with their agreement.

They are being done in accordance with their agreement. What you have is a group who want to change an agreement that was struck in the past to advantage themselves, even though they weren't employeed by the Qantas Group when the agreement was inked.

How about the 90 commands that have gone to QF pilots for nothing in return.

How about that Impulse Airlines was going under and Qantas bought them out. So how about that they have a job in return? No, that is not good enough? What about the unlimited backing that you get from being in the Qantas Group to run at a loss for periods of time? Or the same backing that has allowed you to expand to your current position, rather than going in the same direction as Compass or Air Australia?

Clearly a reciprocal exchange is not happening and they have every right to want change.


So what would you like us to do? Give you commands that don't even exist? Or how about coming and sitting on your ass for months on end while you are assigned leave? Is that going to get your 'hours' up for command experience?

There is no group opportunity list, and the argument is whether JQ want to continue with the status quo or seek to make changes.

Be careful what you wish for. In aviation, 5 years is a short time and everything goes in swings and roundabouts. Who is not to say that AJ gets punted a week after the ink drys on your new EBA. Would be ashame if a new direction was taken and Mainline QF went for huge expansion at the expense of J*. If you want to argue for a group opportunity list then that is fine, go for it, but you don't go tearing up past agreements based on a gen Y winge.

History shows that when you oppress someone, generally they will rise up against that oppression.

Oh spare me! If you have a 2-3 year F/O feeling oppressed, well I guess the whole of Qantas mainline is oppressed. One of my best mates joined Impulse a year after I joined QF. He was a Captain before I was an F/O and shortly after I checked out as an F/O he was a training Captain on the A320. Do I feel oppressed? No, I thought good luck and was extremely happy for him.

OR they can burn them

The only burning here will be by Jetstar pilots. You will be burning the whole of the Qantas pilots, after signing an agreement with them. You want to talk unity? When Joe was stood down, I was at the meeting along with a huge group of Qantas pilots that easily numbered the number of Jetstar pilots. I and a large number of Qantas pilots were happy to hand cash over to make sure that Joe could get by. At the end of the meeting I enjoyed beers with plenty of the J* guys/gals.

Sometimes there is only one thing worse than being a Blue's supporter and thats being a Jetstar pilot! All you blokes who are so outraged about all the Commands going to QF pilots need to pull your heads in and get a bit of perspective on all this. How long have you been an F/O, 4 years? Most of the QF blokes have at least 10 years service. You probably crapped on about the cadets and their experience levels and now you think after 4 years you are ready for the LHS.

If you wanted a command sooo badly why haven't you applied for a three year term in NZ, after all it is all about having a command isn't it? The smart F/O's took a command in DRW when it was available, the fact that it is no longer available comes down to your choice.

The MOU has been there since J* started. It has adavantaged some and disadvantaged some (remember the J* Asia pilots who were still technically QF pilots who couldn't access the MOU).

Finally I haven't seen too many pilots agitating to go to QF. If you want it that badly then agitate for it don't expect it to be handed to you on a platter. As has been mentioned this is what the QF pilots had to do to come across to J*. And at the end of the day the MOU is there to serve the interests of QF and J* management no more, no less.

The MOU is an dreadfully biased document that aids QF pilots at the expense of new JQ FO’s

No it isn't. You guys can't seem to get it in your heads that it is simply because expansion has been all one sided that opportunities are only going one way. The document is simply following that path.

Had a global seniority system been introduced at the time, then ALL Jetstar commands would be available to QF.

The MOU was good for both JQ and QF pilots at the time it was written, new starts joined the back of the queue - simple as that. There are hundreds of QF who joined after Nov 04 to whom the MOU does not apply.

You never know, some QF upstart might start seeking legal advice to have the MOU extended as it is biased towards new JQ over new QF!

The MOU is not unlike like the "Y" scale when QF and TN merged. Numerous S/O's jumped to shorthaul as F/O's, they sat there for almost ten years whilst longhaul F/O's took every shorthaul command. Were they annoyed? Perhaps, but that was the system and they had to suck it up!

Also have a look at the Integration Agreement for QF and TN. It's been there a long long time and over that time there has been a conga line of agitators seeking all sorts of legal advice to have it removed/changed/rewritten because they thought it biased. Guess what? It's still there and still enforced!

Clause 11.3 (below) is another example of the complete bias this agreement has towards the JQ community

It does appear this clause is bias toward QF. Why JQ allowed it in there - who knows? It is redundant now anyway with the number of slots and will not effect anyone. But if you are post Nov 04, why do you care as it doesn't even apply to you or effect you in any way either?

Imagine the welcome you would get as a Jetstar pilot going into Qantas under the MOU.:hmm:

No wonder none of them have bid across - they might end up 'swimming with the fishes' down at The Pond.:ugh:

Oriana, you are so far off the track, that you are in the pond :}

J* pilots would be welcomed under the MOU :ok:

For god sake, the MOU numbers are CLEARLY shown on the Seniority List and have been there since the MOU was agreed. ANYONE joining could see that there are 'slots' available to Qantas pilots who want them, surely it is not to hard to bloody understand that pilots will only move if the vacancies exist. There hasn't been any recruitment into Qantas for a while now so no Jetstar pilots have been able to avail themselves of the MOU positions at Qantas. Jetstar is crying out for new commands, those junior to the MOU numbers are not being disadvantaged, it has ALWAY's been forseeable that these MOU slots could be used. Just because the Jetstar pilots don't like it doesn't give them the right to try and throw out the agreement. :ugh:

Ok, maybe not swimming with the fishes.

How about garrotted with a red tie??:}

In the car park.:p

J* pilots would be welcomed under the MOU

If they arrived with the attitudes displayed in these forums, and with the willingness to undercut that they have shown thus far, no they wouldn't.

Make that pushed out of a moving crew bus.

Just a few FACTS for some of the Jetstar guys/gals: [yes I realise this is a rumour network!]:rolleyes:

Qantas mainline [Longhaul] seniority list has "Q" numbers down to number 703,
"A" numbers from there to number 895. [the shorthaul list has Q and Y numbers swapped.]Then "bottom of the Y" numbers down to number 1931. 1932 is the first of the Jetstar MOU numbers, every THIRD number is then Jetstar down to the end of the list at 2424. [with a Qantas start date of 12 Jan 2009]

This list is what any vacancies in Qantas are filled from, depending on pilot's letters of preference and the company re suitability for promotion.:ok:

I understand the QF side gets less than the agreed one in seven Jetstar command slots.

Seems pretty fair really.:hmm:

So who wishes to bid on that 1932 number??:confused:

Throw a bid in if you are interested, it wont be Qantas pilots that stop you!!:ugh:

PS: I fly with some ex Jetstar pilots here in Qantas, seem pretty normal.;)

The The

Had a global seniority system been introduced at the time, then ALL Jetstar commands would be available to QF.



That would have been really nice as I would have a command on the 380.

:}

If ratherbefishintoday is a typical J* crew member then I have some serious concerns as to the comprehension ability of J* crew.

There are a couple of interesting side points to this that are worthwhile pointing out to those 3-4 year J* F/Os who feel aggrieved by the MOU.

If J* was the size that Dixon told AIPA members it would be then two things would have happened:
1) the QF slots on the JQ list still wouldn't be high enough for a command, and
2) people like ratherbefishintoday wouldn't even be employed in J*.

Taking that example further, if the expansion of the QF group since 2004 been in mainline rather than J*, those J* MOU slots would probably qualify the holder for a 737 command. People like ratherbefishintoday would instead probably be F/Os on the 737 or perhaps still S/Os. If the latter then a good chance they'd be on better money than they're on now. If the former then they'd probably be on similar or perhaps marginally more.

So if ou want to bitch and moan about whether life is fair, there is SO much more you can rage against. imagine, if J* didn't exist, you'd probably be in QF on a much better wicket. I mean , how unfair is that. Bloody Joyce. :E

Still, this thread has at least given me the biggest laugh I've had for a while. Deluded people are always funny. :ok:

I've got 11 years as a mainline f/o. Of the jetstar pilots only a few of the original impulse guys have been in 'the impulse/jetstar/qantas group' longer than I have and I'm not senior enough - nor have I ever been - for a mainline command.

Remind me again what the gripe is with the MOU?

Angry rat:

J* pilots welcomed under the MOU !!!

That's bullsh!t. AIPA went out of their way to ridicule, denigrate and put down J* pilots. That was when QF was in a much better position than it is now.

Now that QF is in a free fall internationally, the position has been "rejigged" so that it's now "OK" to join the ranks of the so called great unwashed.

Bit like a bad marriage - time for JQ pilots to get the divorce from AIPA, stand on your own and run your own union. 800 pilots in one union makes much more sense than the destructive union diversity that exists now.


:

Rashid, you obviously have no idea about whether they would or wouldn't be welcome. I'm sorry that you felt that way, it must have been your own personal feeling, but why would we sign an MOU if you weren't welcome?

As far as the position being "rejigged", there has been no rejigging at all, the MOU is still the same.

You have moved onto greener pastures in Dubai, I guess Emirates would be correct? Hope you are enjoying it along with plenty of the QF guys who had the same choice as you, J* or Emirates.

If ratherbefishintoday is a typical J* crew member then I have some serious concerns as to the comprehension ability of J* crew.

There are a couple of interesting side points to this that are worthwhile pointing out to those 3-4 year J* F/Os who feel aggrieved by the MOU.

If J* was the size that Dixon told AIPA members it would be then two things would have happened:
1) the QF slots on the JQ list still wouldn't be high enough for a command, and
2) people like ratherbefishintoday wouldn't even be employed in J*.

Taking that example further, if the expansion of the QF group since 2004 been in mainline rather than J*, those J* MOU slots would probably qualify the holder for a 737 command. People like ratherbefishintoday would instead probably be F/Os on the 737 or perhaps still S/Os. If the latter then a good chance they'd be on better money than they're on now. If the former then they'd probably be on similar or perhaps marginally more.

So if ou want to bitch and moan about whether life is fair, there is SO much more you can rage against. imagine, if J* didn't exist, you'd probably be in QF on a much better wicket. I mean , how unfair is that. Bloody Joyce.

Still, this thread has at least given me the biggest laugh I've had for a while. Deluded people are always funny.

Lots of if's, but's, wherefore's and maybe's there Keg. Unlike you, I have to say.

Now, I'm not a big fan of the MOU however the deals been signed. I'm happy to live with the consequences. I met a few of the QF guys that have come across and to a man, they have been a absolute pleasure to work with. Most of them with no Airbus time either, have got up to speed pretty quick too.

I genuinely hope AIPA will take a more conciliatory approach (than the tone offered here by some of the usual suspects) to the feedback it is going to get shortly in the upcoming EBA questionnaire and surveys etc.

The sad alternative will probably result in about 300 resignations which will ultimately be unproductive for both pilot groups.

As for finding something better to rage against, I'd suggest there's 1 or 2 QF drivers could take that advice themselves. A bloke expressing some frustration about his employment situation here on PPRUNE is not it. Even if you can't agree, it doesn't mean someone else's view is not valid.

:)

Waren

Dollar for dollar Qantas AIPA members subsidise Jetstar members (who pay substantially less fees) but get full use of AIPA's substantial legal and technical expertise.

In addition, QF guys provided the greatest dollar amount for 'Joes Fighting Fund' when it was going. Note now that Joe has shat on said people who supported him.

When RH and the (then) JPC were about to fly to Melbourne to negotiate the A330 deal, then AIPA press RH offered, FOC, the full capabilities of the AIPA legal and industrial team to help him with the negotiations.

History has shown that that deal, which was done with a view of securing all the Jetstar group international flying, has been a spectacular failure in doing so,

The then JPC was warned against this type of thinking, and those warnings have subsequently been found to be correct.

Its not AIPA's fault that you guys have been locked out of the B787 when it arrives and is based in Sin. Its your own fault for not being strong enough industrially.

So, at the end of the day, what we have is a group of selfish, immoral ar$eholes who want to change a legally agreed to deal simply because they believe that for once, someone other then them is gaining some advantage from a situation. You may even be able to effect this change. Who knows.

But as each and every one of your careers progress, and eventually you are replaced with someone else who will work for less, who will do anything to get a command, and who thinks even less strategically then you, then at some point you will not be able to blame AIPA and QF mainline pilots anymore for your own stupidity, greed and myopia.

Good luck

Mohikan, I agree with all of that. Except the bit where you tar everyone with the same brush. Greedy, stupid and myopic I ain't. Rich coming from some in your group who think if you aren't in a QF jet you shouldn't be in a jet at all.

Perhaps AIPA could have tried to get on board a bit sooner? Like when the 717's were showing up? Dunno. Wasn't here then. Still, whats done is done.

In the meantime, I'll keep paying my AIPA dues. Although, if your view is the consensus then I wonder why I should?

What's the training program at J* over the next 12 months?

How many commands are in the pipeline, how many initial intakes are they expecting?

Excellent my seniority number will be 1932:ok:
Can someone let me know exactly what position I might get in QF with that number, all positions will be considered.
This is not a wind up. I actually think you guys are overreading the downside.
In 2 years time the picture will be very different.

I think the QF should flex some muscle at Network and get some Jet commands there.

Toolish,
as you are probably aware promotion is slow at the moment and you can only get what is available. :(
1932 would have given you a 737 F/O slot in Melbourne in March this year or 737 F/O in Perth in the May allocations for the coming training year.

Excellent my seniority number will be 1932
Can someone let me know exactly what position I might get in QF with that number, all positions will be considered.
This is not a wind up. I actually think you guys are overreading the downside.
In 2 years time the picture will be very different.

That seniority will likely get you a redundancy. Enjoy.

Personally I have nothing against the Qantas guys coming across to Jetstar.

Some of the guys I have met were in Qantas for 16 years and were still FOs! This would be pretty dissapointing from a career perspective. They have three years to see if they like Jetstar. If they like it, they stay, if they don't, they can go back and there will be accelerated movement for the Jetstar guys. Many with their super considerations will probably go back. Most I have met however have been saying how refreshing Jetstar is and they wished they had done it sooner. They imply the working environment at Qantas has become toxic and a chore to go to work. I haven't met a sky god or a tool yet.

So I say come on over, once the Q numbers reach the FO seniority slots commands will be awarded in a 2/3rd Jetstar 1/3 Qantas ratio. At least then we will all know the score. Historically in australia it was at least 10 years to a jet command and to those that get it sooner I say good luck to you. I'm certainly not going to be complaining.

We are all working for the same company and while we remain divided the company wins. Personally (and on a side note) I think the companies give conflicting information to both the unions to keep them distracted and competing with each other.

Anyway we shouldn't be fighting each other, we should be fighting our competitors. Secretly many of us hope they will make a mockery of our management and are applauding at their recent revamp. However sooner or later it will cost us personally if it continues.

Food for thought?

Well said, Green Goblin.

Just remember, those 'sc@<hidden>' or 'skygods' (depending on your point of view) that you all keep slagging off over, actually include many of your mates. Have you ever heard of building a bridge?

I would imagine it is pretty unlikely that anyone flying in Oz at the moment doesn't have a mate in DJ, QF, and JQ.

I feel for my mate who joined JQ, who's command is being slid back by QF numbers, just as I feel for my colleagues who, like me, have been sitting the the RHS of a jet for close on a decade now with no sign of promotion in sight.

I honestly thought that we were past the whole JQ vs QF thing. I thought we all were united in our distain for AJ now.

:ugh:

Lots of if's, but's, wherefore's and maybe's there Keg. Unlike you, I have to say.


Lol. There were a lot of ifs, buts and maybes. That was the point. I hope it helps to highlight the stupidity of ratherbefishintoday's comments in terms of how he feels aggrieved at the moment and why. If a couple of things had gone differently he'd be in a very different situation- and probably still feeling aggrieved over something or other.

It's no good getting angry at the world for how life is when you join something a bunch of years later to find that an agreement made well before you were even a part of the group means that your life will be different to how you thought it would be. Am I aggrieved that the 'career' I had mapped out (a LONG time before people like ratherbefishintoday started at J*) is now not going to pan out? Nope. It happens in aviation. Perhaps it's because a lot of QF crew have had to address the fact that there is more to life than the me, me, me self absorbed mantra of someone like ratherbefishintoday.

Of all the things a pilot could expend energy on at the moment, raging against the MoU has to be one of the most daft that I've come across in the last few years.

Thank goodness for people like Green Goblin and waren9. Despite occasional differences of opinion on some issues (wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed on everything), it does at least give me some faith that some J* crew are aware to issues outside of themselves.

JQ FSO out today outling 33 CMD's and 58 F/O positions throughout the east coast bases. Enjoy.

JQ FSO out today outling 33 CMD's and 58 F/O positions throughout the east coast bases. Enjoy.

Thanks for answering my question outside limits.

I think all parties need to consider the context in which the MOU was written also the written undertakings that were exchanged at the time that do not form part of the MOU.

Those would be the undertakings written by the then CEO of Jetstar Alan Joyce & Qantas Manager of people Kevin Brown.

If you are junior at Jetstar, that is a start date post 2004. You are affected by both promotional opportunities, but also redundancy provisions.

The undertakings made by AIPA at the time were part of the negotiation process as to how Jetstar was going to be crewed.

Qantas (as a business) had always considered all available options prior to making any crew member redundant. That was the company stance at the time the MOU was written. Kevin Brown wrote at the time that to protect Qantas Mainline & Jetstar from losses incurred after the financial investment in training or the ongoing training of crew. The company wanted the option of being able to send pilots to any other entity whether it be Jetstar/Qantas (or later the likes of Emirates or Qatar) rather than providing redundancy notices. That then also formed part of the MOU.

Junior crew at Jetstar should also consider the underataking, just in case the operating environment should turn. That rather than the junior most Jetstar pilot being made redundant, that those individuals from Qantas, now operating at jetstar will return to Qantas mainline. Rather than the junior most Jetstar crew member being made redundant. That being those who have gone to jetstar and didn't resign from Qantas after the 3 year period.

It may not require a complete change in the operating environment. It may be triggered by the fact that Jetstar is carrying any pilot surplus.

Also part of the undertaking was that if ANY pilot (even if not covered by the MOU) is made redundant from Qantas or Jetstar, whilst ever the MOU is in effect. Both Qantas & Jetstar agree to interview that pilot for selection for a period of up to 3 years after the redundancy has taken place.

So by terminating the MOU, you guys would be terminating the undertakings as to how surplus pilots will be managed.

As for not honouring the MOU, as to how the new entity Jetstar would crew their operation & the MOU and written undertakings at the time.

Not that I'm interested but,

The part I can't find is where it says, pilots transferring from Qantas shall be frozen in a particular base. Also not given the opportunity to apply for positions say, other than Darwin.

MC

Curious as to how one might their hands on a copy of all these "written undertakings"?

Away at the moment.

I have a copy of the letter at home. It was part of the MOU briefing package.

Otherwise. I assume AIPA would still have a copy.

It was addressed to the AIPA president RH. Signed by AJ & KB.

Waren 9.

NO-ONE I know in QF thinks they are any better at flying airplanes then anyone else in the QF group, or in fact most airlines elsewhere.

You and your mates trot out the 'skygods' line with monotenous regularity. You do this to justify your own $hit behaviour. Thats all.

In might interest you to know that back in the day, I was one of the most vocal in calling for acceptance and understanding of JQ pilots, with a view of creating a unified union structure.

I hasten to add that right from the get-go key players on the AIPA COM recognised that a 'branch' type structure under an umbrella organisation was the only workable solution. Jetstar and Qantas pilots needed collective strength and individual control of each's unique circumstances.

My opinion changed to what it is today, because despite JQ pilots being screwed by your company time and time again, it appears to me that a significant proportion of you still dont understand that your problems are not being caused by QF pilots, but by your own management, and by extension the management of the group.

Blaming the MOU for your problems is counter productive in the extreme. That some would use this issue as part of an agenda for garnering votes in disingenuous in the extreme.

Waren9, did you actually read Mohikan's post before responding?:confused:

Extremist views? Language?

F&%* me!:ugh:



edited because Waren9 has removed his post which was above this one.:ok:

The part I can't find is where it says, pilots transferring from Qantas shall be frozen in a particular base. Also not given the opportunity to apply for positions say, other than Darwin.

MC, That part isn't written anywhere within the mou. However where you will find reference to base freezes is within the JQ EBA itself and has no inference to a QF pilot transferring.

21.10 Where a number of pilots bidding for a particular opportunity accept the Base Freeze, allocations will be made to those pilots in accordance with clause 21.8. Any Base Freezes or variations to them will be agreed upon between Jetstar and the JPA.

So had no QF drivers bidded, any successful JQ bidders would have been bound by the same document.

G'day GIT

Not quite. While there is no reference to a base freeze in the MOU and there is a brief (but tenuous) one in the EBA, it's the "agreement" struck by JQ and the JPC that has enabled the base freeze.

That agreement says, in part, that if no Qf pilots applied OR applied and were found unsuitable, the positions would be offered to JQ pilots with a ZERO base freeze. Also the Qf ghost numbers would be deleted.

Raises a few questions.

Iron bar,

Anyone who has read the FSO knows it doesn't read zero base freeze for JQ candidates, there was still a base freeze applicable to JQ drivers as well. The FSO was issued and applicable to anyone who applied and was awarded.

The pertinent information missing from your post (which was jq management/JPC theorizing anyway) was if NO QF or JQ pilots bidded at all (or less than the advertised positions,) then it may have been re-issued with no freeze and the corresponding q numbers applicable to the position deleted, which is inline with the MOU. -This part here was all interpretation of how the mou would work if no one from QF or JQ applied. None of this is contained within the FSO.

The same people on JPC who agreed to the base freeze(bad idea implemented for the wrong reasons) are the ones pushing to get rid of the MOU. after a brief absence self serving has returned to the JPC.
Vote wisely guys

Spot on Toolish, the perpetrators of the base freeze are the same ones pushing the for an end to the MOU, (all from the AFAP by the way)

They told the line drivers it was concocted by the company, but mates at JQ tell me it was an idea of the JPC reps who don't like the QF invasion.

Saddest part is they truly believed their own spin :ugh::ugh:

GIT

1/ The JQ FSO advertising the positions does not, however the agreement reached between the JPC and JQ does;

You can rest assured the 3 year base freeze WILL NOT apply to the one JQ pilot who has taken one of the 25 command positions advertised.

Does this sound familiar? (my bold)


"The JPC approve a Darwin base freeze for up to 25 narrow body Captains and up to 25 narrow body First Officers subject to the MOU being active and Qantas being able to facilitate releasing their pilots; and the following conditions:

CAPTAINS:

1) The term is 3 years in Darwin from successful command check to line (CTL).

2) Base frozen positions shall be advertised in a single FSO with only Darwin Command positions advertised. This is to avoid confusion and unintended bidding for base frozen positions.

3) Jetstar shall re-advertise unfilled base frozen positions with a lesser base freeze period as determined by the JPC. On this second allocation, the JPC reserves the right to nominate the period anywhere between 30 months and zero months which Jetstar may implement.

4) Any unfilled base frozen positions at the end of the allocation will not be advertised externally as Direct Entry Commands.

5) Base frozen Captains shall be ineligible to bid for any other positions until their base freeze has expired. Expiry date is to be noted on the seniority list.

6) The MOU shall be activated and base frozen positions shall be available for all eligible Qantas pilots to bid for.

7) Jetstar may delay the training of Qantas pilots outside of seniority to facilitate their release from Qantas.

8) If eligible Qantas pilots do not apply for base frozen positions, Q numbers shall be deleted in accordance with clause 8.7.1 of the MOU.

“ʻGhostʼ numbers will be converted to actual seniority numbers (or deleted or retained), as follows:

8.7.1 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ʻghostʼ number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ʻghostʼ number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;”


2/ There is NO reference to a base freeze in the MOU. The removal of ghost numbers and the base freeze are 2 separate issues.

3/ Actually Toolish sums it up quite nicely with "bad idea implemented for the wrong reasons". Something about precedent perhaps? The base freeze is a short sighted and cynical attempt by a few individuals to penalise Q pilots and placate the mob.

Thanks for posting that, however with respect I believe some points are still being misinterpreted....

From your bolding shall re-advertise unfilled base frozen positions

The FSO was a JQ document and the mou was activated thus allowing q numbers to bid for this FSO. There was no separate FSO for QF or JQ. Agreed?
So anything UNFILLED would have been reissued. Had Jq guys been successful for the initial positions they would have been bound by the same rules you posted above. 2nd round? We'll never know as they were all awarded to QF MOU shall be activated and base frozen positions shall be available this was exactly the same for internal JQ applicants, it just wasn't via the mou.

I'm not on the JPC, but from the communication I sought and received (and it did affect me, so I sought plenty) this was freeze was group wide, not aimed at QF. If you know something I don't I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Ultimately my bidding was unsuccessful (not senior enough to the q #) but I fully expected had I bid and been accepted, I was going to DN for 3 years.

Edited for clarity!

I think there was a Q fso issued on 13 April but I don't have it. I recall it saying much the same as the Jq one. I don't quite follow you, but I think the intent of the conditions agreed by the JPC are quite clear and that does not include freezing current JQ pilots (nor should they). The JQ crew would riot!

If, as I believe, a current JQ pilot has been allocated one of these "frozen" positions, we shall find out.

Good luck with a successful bid. Don't think you will have to wait long.

Perhaps Q pilots should lobby that J* ghost MOU numbers should disappear if nobody bids for mainline positions.:E

Elephant Hiding

I’m not sure what the science of Elephant hiding is called but it appears that there are a few good practitioners of said science in Australia. For the spectators out there a certain member of the JPC put the spotlight on the MOU elephant when he signalled MOU termination. Since that time it would appear that AIPA have been desperately trying to hide said elephant anywhere they can. Now, even for those in the cheap seats, it is plainly obvious that you cannot hide an elephant behind a lamppost, coffee table, coat hanger or lightglobe, but it is entertaining nonetheless, and it is not for lack of trying. The entertainment value has only increased with the desperation and now in a new turn the AFAP have been dragged into the circus act as an unwilling participant.

Smoke and mirrors is the new act, normally reserved for the corporate management thug types, but now adapted for the Elephant hiding act. Now, as everyone knows, elephants are very hard to hide. But, in a lightbulb moment, the elephant hiding ringmasters have decided that the next best thing to hiding an elephant is making it disappear. Wow, the crowd is silent in anticipation, a disappearing elephant act, can it really get any better. Sadly, the act is only part way through and my source is unable to report on the outcome of this new and daring act. But so far there is a lot of smoke and distraction and something called unity. Unity is mentioned by the ringmasters at every opportunity, what can it mean and where will it end?

Oh the possibilities are endless, maybe the elephant dies of smoke inhalation, African ivory poachers swoop in and steal the elephant, or the elephant vanishes in a puff of smoke. The anticipation is building, will the MOU elephant disappear, or will it be standing front and centre when the smoke clears?

On a serious note and as an outside observer, do the Jetstar pilots know what the quickest way to unity actually is?

Huh??:confused:

The JPC,led by BB, are quickly losing credibility fast. The dummy spitting and poor behaviour
By the JPC will back fire when their push to isolate and unsuccessfuly challenge the MOU becomes a trademark failure. Aipa's calm and professional approach will prevail. Watch carefully what unfolds.

outside limits you must be getting different emails than me and the rest of the members.
I am an AIPA member and what I have seen in the way correspondence to the membership has been embarrassing.

You JQ guys have rocks in your head if you get rid of the MOU! When the great LC expansion finishes then what are you going to do? My take is that it's probably over stepped the line and has been white anting QF's yield for the last 5 years. How much is JQ longhaul making? Or the international franchises? At some point in time they will pull the plug on them. With DJ attacking QF mainline's domestic business market they probably won't respond with more JQ domestic capacity ( mind you with AJ and Clifford at the helm you never know).
Not a bad lifeboat option when the music stops or the regime gets the arse.

NO ONE with any power in Jet Star has said they wanted to get rid of the MOU.

There is however different interpretation of the document which now needs to be tested.

As a pre 2004 F.O. I voted yes to this MOU thinking that if 3 commands where offered only 1 would go to QF. Not 100% as is happening. That is my personal interpretation.

Helmut Somkar it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about. Please read the document, then you might like to give your opinion. What you are saying can't happen under the MOU!! :ugh:

Hi Eastmoore, two questions if I may

There is however different interpretation of the document which now needs to be tested.

And what would that interpretation be?

I voted yes to this MOU thinking that if 3 commands where offered only 1 would go to QF. Not 100% as is happening.

Since the MOU was signed, what % of commands have gone to Qantas pilots?

Thanks

If you don't know you are outside of the MOU.

Position allowed to be advertised and available to QF pilots, at this stage 99%.

I'd be surprised if that were actually the case. I suspect that Qantas seniority numbers on the J* seniority list were eligible for commands for about the last five or so years yet QF pilots were not able to bid for these vacancies due to restrictions put in place by Qantas. So we're not getting 100% of new vacancies per se, we're simply getting access to commands that were denied to the Q seniority numbers for the last bunch of years.

So if there were 33 commands recently given exclusively to Qantas seniority that means that there have been 66 Jetstar commands given exclusively to J* seniority numbers prior to that point. The bottom 1/3 of those J* commands essentially got them earlier than they would have were QF seniority numbers allowed to bid for them.

I'd LOVE to look at the J* seniority list and identify exactly where the QF seniority numbers are in that list and which numbers have been taken up and see where the resultant reserved Q seniority numbers now sit in terms of command opportunities and so on. Of course, that information is difficult to come by.

Currenty Keg the Qantas Commands are being awarded below seniority number 350.

The most Junior Jetstar Captain is around 516 out of around 900 odd Pilots.

Technically those Q numbers should have been deleted after being advertised and not filled.

Personally I couldn't give a rats arse. The guys that are coming over have 15+ years (in most cases) seniority in Qantas. They are good operators, knowledgeable and a pleasure to fly with. I can't look in the mirror and be upset at guys with that type of service who are just trying to get on with their career. If I'm still an FO in 15 years and it was the other way around, I'd jump ship in a heart beat.

Also don't forget there is 3 years for these guys to decide to stay or go. I'd expect many to go if Joyce is gone and Qantas is back on track under decent leadership.

Hell I'll follow if given the opportunity!

It's been there since I joined, so come on over. No gripes here!

I suspect that Qantas seniority numbers on the J* seniority list were eligible for commands for about the last five or so years yet QF pilots were not able to bid for these vacancies due to restrictions put in place by Qantas. So we're not getting 100% of new vacancies per se, we're simply getting access to commands that were denied to the Q seniority numbers for the last bunch of years.

Keg,
100% correct, well said.

Makes you wonder if the limiting or denying of access to these J* slots over the last five years by Mainline was a deliberate ploy considering the circumstances we find ourselves in today. :rolleyes:

Technically those Q numbers should have been deleted after being advertised and not filled.



I am pretty sure that every JQ command that has been advertised to Qantas pilots has been oversubscribed by applicants.

The majority of these commands have NOT been advertised to Qantas pilots.

How can we apply for unadvertised slots?

MOU 8.7.1 only allows ghost seniority numbers to be deleted if no QF pilots bid for a slot.

If you don't know you are outside of the MOU.

Position allowed to be advertised and available to QF pilots, at this stage 99%.

I am definitely inside of the MOU.

Where in the MOU does it talk about what positions are allowed, or not are not allowed, to be advertised to QF pilots?

There is however different interpretation of the document which now needs to be tested.

Again I ask, what would that interpretation be?

G'day Goblin, Thanks for the info.

Technically those Q numbers should have been deleted after being advertised and not filled.


As others have pointed out, QF were in breach of the MoU by:

1. Not advertising them,
2. Not releasing crew to take them up when QF crew asked to be released if we became aware of them.

...the Qantas Commands are being awarded below seniority number 350.

The most Junior Jetstar Captain is around 516 out of around 900 odd Pilots.

So technically, if there are 166 numbers between 350 and 516 and QF has 1 in 3 of them (say 55) that we perhaps haven't taken up. That means that presuming every JQ number from 350 to 516 has taken a command, QF ghost numbers could take the next 55 or so JQ commands until they get to 516. After that QF ghost numbers are back to 1 in 3 again and JQ pilots get 2/3 of the commands with the remaining 1/3 available to QF ghost numbers.

As hard as it is for the majority in this industry who are only capable of thinking about number one, I ask that you stop for one second and put yourselves in the shoes of a Jetstar FO who has been in the company for 4-5 years and very close to a command before the influx from QF. These guys who have sat patiently and worked their way up at JQ now don't know if or when they will see a command. If this were you wouldn't you be pi**ed off with the current situation? If you answer no to this question then I call you a liar!

Question if I may, if a QF FO/SO fails either their command or FO upgrade at Jetstar on the MOU, does the MOU state what happens to them??

As hard as it is for the majority in this industry who are only capable of thinking about number one, I ask that you stop for one second and put yourselves in the shoes of a Qantas FO who has been in the company from between 1995- 2000 and were very close to a command before the influx of new employees to J* post Qantas saving Impulse from the scrap heap in 2001. These guys who sat patiently and worked their way up at QF (and may have become Captains from 2007-2009 if they were lucky)- many years after those who joined J* in 2003 and 2004. Now they don't know if or when they will maintain their command- if they were lucky enough to get one in the first place. If this were you wouldn't you be pi**ed of with the current situation particularly when you've asked to be included in group expansion (but behind all the then current Impulse/ J* crew) in 2004?

I won't ask you to answer the question. Your original post makes it quite clear. :rolleyes: :ugh:

There have been 2 QF MOU Pilots in the last month who failed there command upgrades.They have both returned to QF. I believe where given 3 goes and other options but chose to return to QF.:ok:
JQ Pilots who are not part of the MOU who fail 3 checks in 18 Months are terminated.They are given options before check 3 .
I have spoken to many of my QF Friends and to me it is a no brainer while things are in a state of flux at QF,
1. Free Endorsement.
2. If problem in qualifying return to the mother ship.(the majority qualify]

Nothing to lose and maybe might enjoy the experience.:ok:

4 to 5 years to command?

How about 15 to 20 years?

Keg I'm not disagreeing with you. All I'm saying is that you need to look at it from a JQ FO's perspective as well. BOTH sides need to do this "for the sake of unity". That being said what I do find interesting is how a lot of QF boys who have previously bagged out JQ to no end are now only to willing to take a command slot. Don't you find that interesting?

As hard as it is for the majority in this industry who are only capable of thinking about number one, I ask that you stop for one second and put yourselves in the shoes of a Qantas FO who has been in the company from between 1995- 2000 and were very close to a command before the influx of new employees to J* post Qantas saving Impulse from the scrap heap in 2001.

Stop for a minute and think about the other wholly owned subsidiary that was shut down and their pilots left to dry by AIPA.

Keg, as long as you continue with your assertions, there will never be a united group of pilots against QF management.

What's in the past is in the past. I think we all need to be looking forward as 2 groups finally seeking a common goal.

If QF pilots wanted a position in JQ in the past, they should have resigned and joined JQ. It was never a god given right, and should not be treated as such.

Keg, as long as you continue with your assertions, there will never be a united group of pilots against QF management.

What's in the past is in the past. I think we all need to be looking forward as 2 groups finally seeking a common goal.

If QF pilots wanted a position in JQ in the past, they should have resigned and joined JQ. It was never a god given right, and should not be treated as such.

Actually I think you will find it is a legally given right.

But go ahead and spend a heap of money on lawyers to prove me wrong.

The JPC did agree to the MOU.

Do you welch on other agreements because they don't suit you at the time?

When passengers buy tickets they should be aware that "conditions apply".

When pilots join airlines they too should be aware "conditions apply"

One of those conditions being an MOU existed.

Pilots joined mainline & were told expect a Command in 10 - 12 years & that's not happening.

Pilots joined JQ & were told expect a Command in 4 - 5 years & that's not happening either.

The only certainty is that which is written in black & white & legally recognized.

Keg, as long as you continue with your assertions, there will never be a united group of pilots against QF management.


WTF? What assertions have I made? NOTAM posts a bloody stupid burst calling for unity and to please see it from a poor, humble, down trodden JQ F/O's perspective. I post the Qantas equivalent. I make no assertions beyond that at all. As you say, it is what it is but spare me the freaking sob story about some poor J* F/O who after five years of employment in JQ feels hard done by because a dude who has been in QF since 1999 is taking a slot with a seniority number that was decided before the JQ F/O even joined JQ.

You want unity? Don't play silly buggers with the protected QF seniority numbers in JQ. Whilst you're at it, spare me the preaching. I think you'll find a thread of the exact title of 'unity' started by me a bunch of years ago. Jan 2007 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/259730-unity.html). Ironically more than 5 years ago so at the time I was suggesting unity between pilots, those F/Os that NOTAM asks me to consider weren't even part of JQ.

Everything changes and nothing changes. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Oh, how my heart bleeds for you JQ F/Os!!

Hey I've got an idea. Let's all offer to work for JQ -40% and then bitch and moan when JQ guys are forced to work for such just to keep their job.

Not nice is it?!

Don't stand there and tell me how shit it is having to wait 5 years for a narrow body jet command, when most in the group are looking down the barrel of 25+ years. Assuming of course they don't want to undercut their mates.....:mad:

As hard as it is for the majority in this industry who are only capable of thinking about number one, I ask that you stop for one second and put yourselves in the shoes of a Jetstar FO who has been in the company for 4-5 years and very close to a command before the influx from QF. These guys who have sat patiently and worked their way up at JQ now don't know if or when they will see a command. If this were you wouldn't you be pi**ed off with the current situation? If you answer no to this question then I call you a liar!

Notam,

Having to Wait 4-5 years in Australia for a jet command and you think they are hard done by??????

Ha, I don't think you are going to get much sympathy on this forum! I'm sure all the ex-Ansett, TAA, and Qantas pilots over the years probably won't be sharing your view. :oh:

Poor young guys, it must be nearly the end of the world for them!!

Hilarious stuff! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

When the first Jetstar Pilots use the MOU to move to Qantas then those junior Jetstar F/Os will benefit by their rise in seniority!;)

It could happen, the airline game is a strange one.:hmm:

Keg, stop getting your knickers in a twist mate. All I am saying is that if the situation was reversed and JQ boys/girls were flooding into QF taking command slots I'm sure there would be even more of an outcry!

2plus, ...when most in the group are looking down the barrel of 25+ years. once again I ask whether you find it strange that the same guys who bagged the sh*t out of JQ and turned their noses up at in until not long ago are only too happy to now come across and take a command at the same company? It's funny how that "group" mentality quickly changes!

There is none so blind as those who will not see. :ugh:

What I can see Keg, is that all of the FOs at QF that you have quoted (join date 1995 - 2000) would have had an opportunity to be Captains at QF had they chosen to do so - given there are currently QF Captains with seniority dates in 2000.

So in fact your assertion is incorrect.

NOTAM.

The conditions associated with the MOU transfer changed.

Until recently pilots were responsible for the cost of the endorsement.

When LS agreed to cover the cost of the endorsement the transfer was made more attractive to those considering the move over.

Jetstar is not an isolated case. Mainline crew are critical of the mananagement or lack there of of both mainline & Jetstar. Guys "bag" both mainline & Jetstar and will take the first command opportunity that happens at either.

Condition Lever,

And what are the seniority dates of the 767 Capts involved in the RIN? What about their years as Captain?

:=

Mstr caution,

Mainline crew are critical of the mananagement or lack there of of both mainline & Jetstar. Guys "bag" both mainline & Jetstar and will take the first command opportunity that happens at either.

Smoke and mirrors! We all know that the reason is that the operation itself is seen as second class in the eyes of the skygods, however as Jetbest has pointed out many are finding out that this is not the case!

Wisdom is never earnt through an own mouth.

Do you ever feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking comp Keg?

Your assertions are incorrect, your rhetoric is mind boggling, and your attitude optimises another reason why so many who have come across are enjoying their JQ experience.

The facts of the matter are quite simple. 4 yeas ago when positions were available, the pick up rate of MoU positions was minimal. Every QF FO from 2004-2008 had the opportunity to access the Q numbers as they became available and they were advertised. Dont cry to me that people are only taking the posiotns they have missed out on during the last 5 years. They had their chance and they have had it again. People just want their cake and eat it too.

No-one is playing silly buggers with the Q numbers. The interpretation is being presented for consideration. These numbers are only protected in the realm of the MoU and a lot of people forget the MoU is meant to operate both ways yet I have not seen any positions advertised to JQ pilots.

I'm looking forward to 160 JQ pilots moving to QF. I'm also looking forward to mainline prospering in the future and for Q number to move back to Qantas.

Unseen, I put it to you that it is people like Keg who are trying the play with the MoU to suit themselves, not the JQ FO's. But I may be wrong even though those who orchestrated the MoU believe it to be correct. If so I will gladly eat humble pie rather than blowing a fuse.

Unseen & Bula, Qantas are demoting Captains :ugh:

Are you forgetting the really obvious reason hundreds of Qantas pilots have left for Jetstar MOU, Jetstar direct entry, Qatar, Emirates, Air Japan, Skymark, University...

Strewth this is a circular argument.

Assertions? Rhetoric? NOTAM posts a sob story highlighting the desperate and unfortunate plight of someone who has been in JQ since 2007-2008 and begging for 'unity' because of that horrible and distasteful situation. I happen to point out that if he (or she) is interested in sob stories along the lines of what he's suggested that there are a plethora of QF crew, employed well before the time frame that NOTAM talks about who have their own sob story. That gets pointed out and the response is 'let's not re-hash the past, what has happened has happened'. It's laughable in the extreme.

On a number of occasions I've advocated for J* crew (and Impulse crew before them). I've emailed COM members, lobbied COM members (right up to various Presidents) and so on to ensure that people in this industry and in the QF group are protected. I advocated for a better deal for the J* widebody variation too- as did many QF crew who could see what was occurring. So spare me the lecture that a bloke who was still in early years of high school when QF drivers AND JQ drivers signed an agreement that people could transfer between the entities at certain seniority numbers, isn't going to be a Captain at JQ by the age of 28 simply because of that agreement.

I've got no beef against J* pilots in any general sense (apart for those individuals that attempt to short circuit an agreement). I hope they have long and successful careers without some of the grief that QF drivers are currently going through. The terms and conditions are what they are.

These numbers are only protected in the realm of the MoU and a lot of people forget the MoU is meant to operate both ways yet I have not seen any positions advertised to JQ pilots.

Not for the first time I'll ask the JQ crew, have you asked for them to be advertised? Have you complained that they haven't been promulgated to you guys? Every year since 2004 (ish) QF drivers have asked why the JQ slots weren't advertised to us (on those occasions when they weren't). Every year we've asked why it is that QF drivers weren't being released for JQ slots. You can hardly blame QF crew for not advertising QF promotional slots to JQ. Your gripe in this particular circumstance is with your own management rather than QF drivers. Then again though, much easier to criticise QF drivers than your own management isn't it. A trait that seems all too common from many JQ loud mouths on PPRUNE it seems.

I'm looking forward to 160 JQ pilots moving to QF.

Likewise. I'll welcome you guys with open arms. I'll even explain to post 2004 QF drivers why it's appropriate and right that you do take those slots ahead of them.... it's because they're JQ protected slots.

I'm also looking forward to mainline prospering in the future and for Q number to move back to Qantas.


As you should. If QF is prospering and those QF crew who have taken up JQ seniority numbers come back to QF then I presume those ghost numbers now disappear forever from the JQ seniority list. They have essentially been retired by QF crew coming back. You may face the prospect if mainline picks up of having significant promotional slots available. I wonder if the JPC will again recommend a 3 year darwin base freeze if that becomes the case. Probably not would be my guess.

I put it to you that it is people like Keg who are trying the play with the MoU to suit themselves, not the JQ FO's.

How do you figure that? The way it's going, there won't even be an MOU slot for me in the next couple of years (unless I choose to jump now) and then were I to go to J* it will be on the bottom of the pile. Further, please provide 'evidence' of how I'm trying to 'play with the MoU to suit themselves'. It's a pretty nasty assertion to make if you're not going to back it up with any evidence. :=

I guess though when people play the man instead of the principle it shows how little they have to go on were it simply an argument about principle. :rolleyes:

There have been 2 QF MOU Pilots in the last month who failed there command upgrades.They have both returned to QF. I believe where given 3 goes and other options but chose to return to QF

What happened to these numbers on the seniority list if these guys went back to QF? Did they get deleted or left as a Q number?

I think the JQ guys don't realize that there has never need a JQ Command advertised to QF pilots that hasn't been applied for!

On many occasions commands have been advertised to JQ pilots but NOT to us at Qantas!

You can't bid for something that is not advertised!

The numbers are deleted.

Unseen, you are incorrect. Only 24 out of 25 Darwin base freeze positions were applied for. Hence the argument about the deletion of 37 Q numbers as all have had a chance to apply for those positions.

There is also an argument within the MoU that as a mainline pilot you are only allowed to apply for a position once. Whether you take it or decline is irrelevant as you have exercised your rights under the agreement and any further bidding is now null and void. There may have been some allocations which did not follow this rule and thus should be rescinded.

Whats the point in rehashing the past? Yes, some guys are complaining about an agreement affecting their promotions. I agree whole heartedly that the agreement as it stands IS the agreement plain and simple.

I am not an advocate of the MoU, but it was in play when I joined and I accept its contents. If someone feels the agreement is not within their best interests, that is how they feel. To belittle their opinion, and follow it up with some soft story about how things were, and waiting 15-20 years.... now that is laughable.

Franky, JQ and QF people who are stubborn enough not to roll with the times, and hard headed enough to resist change are masochistic and self-depreciating. Everyone makes their own choices. Don't tickle my funny bone with the old mantra "but we were here first" as its being slung from both sides. Maybe a stiff shot of darwinism is in order.

In saying that both sides need to abide by its contents and work within the realms of its contents.

By that I mean:

1. a 3 year base freeze, is in the realm of the agreement.
2. Deleting 37 Q numbers is within the realm of the agreement.
3. Working together is in the realm of the agreement and quite frankly the POINT.
4. Promoting/reassigning 98 QF Captains and FO's to JQ commands is in the realm of the agreement.

2. Deleting 38 Q numbers is within the realm of the agreement.


Hi Bula, are you saying that 38 Q numbers should be deleted because QF pilots did not apply for 38 JQ commands that were advertised to them?

Or for some other reason?

I really want to understand where you are coming from here,

Thanks in advance

MOU 8.7.1 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;

Only 24 Qantas pilots exercised that opportunity out of the 25 position offered. This is the first time that both Qantas and Jetstar pilots have been allocated commands in the same FSO. It is because everyone senior to the last JQ allocation has had an opportunity to bid for a command and the conditions of the MOU were met, the Q numbers should be deleted.

sorry.. it should be 37 Q numbers.

MOU 8.7.1 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;

Only 24 Qantas pilots exercised that opportunity out of the 25 position offered. This is the first time that both Qantas and Jetstar pilots have been allocated commands in the same FSO. It is because everyone senior to the last JQ allocation has had an opportunity to bid for a command and the conditions of the MOU were met, the Q numbers should be deleted.

sorry.. it should be 37 Q numbers.

Ok, so you are saying that 1 position not bid for means 37 numbers deleted?

Is that correct?

Correct... Though that is my opinion, and from speaking to some MoU negotiators, the apparent intention of that said paragraph.

JQ Management, JPC and AFAP legal all agree with this definition and how it should be applied and implemented.

AIPA is in the process of ensuring the legalities of the statement...

For JQ management, a perfect way to split the group once again, just as we approach EBA negotiation time.

Watch this space.

I think I get it now,

Is this what you are saying - in the last allocation, there were 37 ghost Q numbers on the JQ list senior to someone in JQ who was allocated a Command?

Ie something like - there were 61 Q ghost slots but only 24 were taken so you delete the 37 remaining?

You blokes are unreal.

Where, in the MOU, does it state that Mainline pilots are limited to Darwin bases only?

So having copped that on the chin, even though enough mainline pilots have bid for the slots, several were knocked out on technicalities. A few because they were short of hours, even though they would be well in excess of hours when they started their course. A couple because JQ doesn't recognise their several thousand hours of 146 time. So that last JQ slot you are referring to was well over subscribed, just not allocated to QF for various bull$hit reasons. And that justifies erasing 37 QF numbers.

Then to top it all of you want to preach about 4 year FOs? About unity?

No ethics. No morals. You are the reason this industry is fcuked.

If someone feels the agreement is not within their best interests, that is how they feel. To belittle their opinion, and follow it up with some soft story about how things were, and waiting 15-20 years.... now that is laughable.

Thank you Bula, this is the point that Keg amongst his/her ranting and raving seems to be missing :ugh:

Notam - can you answer my questions / confirm my understanding of the present situation as you guys see it please?

I think I get it now,

Is this what you are saying - in the last allocation, there were 37 ghost Q numbers on the JQ list senior to someone in JQ who was allocated a Command?

Ie something like - there were 61 Q ghost slots but only 24 were taken so you delete the 37 remaining?

Qantas pilots at least have options within the group unlike some group pilots who were shown the door with nothing when their airline was judged as no longer useful , Qantas to some extent has had the same judgment made on it . It's a tough world !

Elephant Hiding

I’m not sure what the science of Elephant hiding is called but it appears that there are a few good practitioners of said science in Australia. For the spectators out there a certain member of the JPC put the spotlight on the MOU elephant when he signalled MOU termination. Since that time it would appear that AIPA have been desperately trying to hide said elephant anywhere they can. Now, even for those in the cheap seats, it is plainly obvious that you cannot hide an elephant behind a lamppost, coffee table, coat hanger or lightglobe, but it is entertaining nonetheless, and it is not for lack of trying. The entertainment value has only increased with the desperation and now in a new turn the AFAP have been dragged into the circus act as an unwilling participant.

Smoke and mirrors is the new act, normally reserved for the corporate management thug types, but now adapted for the Elephant hiding act. Now, as everyone knows, elephants are very hard to hide. But, in a lightbulb moment, the elephant hiding ringmasters have decided that the next best thing to hiding an elephant is making it disappear. Wow, the crowd is silent in anticipation, a disappearing elephant act, can it really get any better. Sadly, the act is only part way through and my source is unable to report on the outcome of this new and daring act. But so far there is a lot of smoke and distraction and something called unity. Unity is mentioned by the ringmasters at every opportunity, what can it mean and where will it end?

Oh the possibilities are endless, maybe the elephant dies of smoke inhalation, African ivory poachers swoop in and steal the elephant, or the elephant vanishes in a puff of smoke. The anticipation is building, will the MOU elephant disappear, or will it be standing front and centre when the smoke clears?

Classic, yes the AIPA ringmasters are producing copious amounts of smoke to distract the JQ pilots. The latest distraction is to pay a SC for an independent opinion. Have they heard of John Laws or Alan Jones and the cash for comment scandal? How independent will the opinion be when it is AIPA briefing the SC, AIPA providing the material to the SC for contemplation, and AIPA paying for the advice? It has all the foundations of an independent and unbiased decision – NOT.

But that is all beside the point. Jetstar Management have agreed to delete the Q numbers if the AIPA reps agree with the JPC. The question is will the Jetstar pilots allow the wool to be pulled over their eyes when AIPA come back with the biased opinion they paid for?

On a serious note and as an outside observer, do the Jetstar pilots know what the quickest way to unity actually is?

The quickest way to unity is to be in ONE union. Does anyone see the incredible hypocrisy of AIPA in preaching “unity”, “for the sake of unity”, “in unity” etc ad nauseam in their latest updates. AIPA went public in an unprovoked attack on the AFAP. Then, in a follow up update they single out the Chairman of the JPC for special treatment. Real unifying stuff.

I think his response on the Jetstar pilot’s website smashes any credibility AIPA have. They have lost all integrity – end of story.

Maybe they should run the slogan 'for the sake of unity – Join ONE union.'

Unseen- From what I have hear what you are asking is the state of play. 24Q slots then the 25th pilot from that FSO was a JQ driver who creates the 37 Q slots that should be deleted.

Unseen, in the last round of allocations between the last Q number and JQ FO to be allocated a command there are 38 Q numbers. According to MOU 8.7.1 (and those who were involved in forming the MOU) the Q numbers above the last JQ FO to be awarded a command should now be deleted (ie since a JQ FO was awarded the last command no QF pilot has taken the opportunity).

Thank you, I finally understand your interpretation.

I still interpret the MOU as removing only 1 number in this case.

What is more important under the law, what the MOU actually says or the 'intent' of the person who wrote it?

Why wasn't this intent included in the MOU?

Was it ever published to the members?

In my experience, it is usually several years after the fact, when a legal challenge appears, that everyone starts rabbiting on about 'the intent' that they had in mind when it was written which of course always backs up their case.

So, let's go and spend lots of money on lawyers and find out. Seems to be the way of things these days.

Divide and conquer in action.

Unseen, in the last round of allocations between the last Q number and JQ FO to be allocated a command there are 38 Q numbers. According to MOU 8.7.1 (and those who were involved in forming the MOU) the Q numbers above the last JQ FO to be awarded a command should now be deleted (ie since a JQ FO was awarded the last command no QF pilot has taken the opportunity).

No QF pilot took the opportunity to access that 25th ghost number so it should be deleted - fair enough as per 8.7.1.

I really want someone to explain the logic behind deleting more!

Where were the other 37 slots based? Was it other than Darwin?

Where were the other 37 slots based? Was it other than Darwin?

There weren't any other slots.

Only one ghost number was not applied for apparently.

Somehow that translates to 37 being deleted - I am waiting to hear the series of logic steps to get there from the words of MOU 8.7.1

Unseen I think that I can help you answer your question.

How many eligible MOU Qantas pilots had an opportunity to bid for this FSO?

Unseen I think that I can help you answer your question.

How many eligible MOU Qantas pilots had an opportunity to bid for this FSO?

Lots had the opportunity to bid for that last ghost number which would have got them that 25th command.

Only that one ghost number would have allowed someone to access a command - the 25th command.

They did not, so under the words of the MOU, that ghost number can be deleted.

Isn't that what the MOU says?

Livs Hairdresser ...... Do you need a tissue or are you ok?

Unseen, to state the obvious it's all about interpretation..... ;)

Positions and basing are NOT assigned to a seniority number, they are assigned to an individual so in theory 37 individuals out of 2000 had the chance to apply for a JQ command.

Since 37 were eligible, and 37 were available as being suitable candidates (though may not have necessarily applied), and therefore 37 opportunities to access these Q 'ghost' numbers, they should now be deleted.

The only reason it is 37 is that 50 odd JQ guys and gals also said no.

For example

001 - 006 - All JQ numbers, all say no thanks.
007 - Ghost number- no suitable application DELETED
008-014 - All JQ numbers, all say no thanks
015 - Ghost Number - no suitable application DELETED

So on and so forth.

8.7.1
if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;

As 8.7 and 8.7.1 of the MOU says

8.7 ‘Ghost' numbers will be converted to actual seniority numbers (or deleted or retained), as follows:

8.7.1 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost' number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost' number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;

Unseen as you said lots, I say all the MOU eligible Qantas pilots were eligible to access an opportunity to this Darwin base freeze FSO. I agree that one Q number is deleted each time that an eligible and suitable Qantas pilots does not apply for this FSO. But this continues to happen until the FSO no longer has any position. In this case that was when the JQ pilot took the last slot filling all the positions of that FSO. Each Q number above the JQ pilot has had an opportunity to apply for that FSO.

I guess we will see you in court - that is where this is headed.

FACT- from 2004-2010 the MOU was only 'open' sporadically for Mainline pilots to bid across to and untill recently the command vacencys were never advertised to mainline, hence large gap between MOU numbers and current JQ captain seniority :ugh:
Eletronic 'Letters of preference' in the QF system that included JQ only came in place around 4 years ago. Not long after it stopped being an option till around mid 2011.
So people think 38 slots should be deleted even though most command slots from 2004 were never advertised (until reciently) to people that were covered under the MOU. 8.7.1
There are at least 38 suitable people that made an application/letters of preferance over those years while commands were only being given to JQ pilots.
Dis-regarding the fact the Darwin positon's had a 3year freeze, even then there were still many more than 25 people interviewed, but only 24 found suitable for this round of restricted Darwin slots.
Ironically earlier in 2011 more senior JQ FO's (4-5yrs) did not take a Darwin command when the opportunity was availabe to them without the restrictions but Mainline pilots were still willing to. Infact the Perth B737 commands going to 13-14 year QF pilots shows the willingness to gain command if needed.
JPC wants the numbers of QF pilots that have been offered/rejected over past years. Do they really want to see how many positions suitable pilots were not given an opportunity if it was "available" the past 8years?
How about the interview files of all the un-suitable pilots.... any possible HR skeletons?
I wonder if the JPC next stand for the JQ pilots should be to give up their J class seats paxing/staff travel with these troublesome QF pilots up the front taking their command slots. Must be such a pain joining JQ, under the Qantas group with mainline still flying... :D
One GFC trigger was "No DOC" home loans... Sign up low interest with a balloon interest rate payment 3-4years later. People just chose to ignore what they signed up for when it came time to pay balloon rate.... then after more ignorance they defaulted on their home :rolleyes:
Does that sound familiar.....

FFRATS

Thank you Bula, this is the point that Keg amongst his/her ranting and raving seems to be missing

Lol. You still don't get it do you. The point of my response to you sob story about 4 year JQ F/Os feeling down trodden served a few purposes
1. If you think those boys and girls are doing it tough then you're pretty naive, and,
2. Sob stories are a dime a dozen. I don't expect you to give a toss it took me nearly 14 years to command and 11 years as an F/O.

You want to know what's really laughable? Using such a pitiful excuse for a sob story and then asking for 'unity' at the same time as taking very de-unifying actions trying to cull QF ghost numbers on a very dodgy interpretation of the MOU. Other words suitable would be hypocritical, delusion, etc.

At least it's entertaining. In fact, it's the biggest joke I've seen on PPRUNE in eons. :ok:

So, the number of Q slots to be deleted is determined purely by the arbitrary seniority number of the most senior Jetstar award!?

If no Jetstar pilot was awarded a slot, then all Q numbers should be deleted...
If a Jetstar pilot was senior to the last Q slot, then no Q numbers are deleted...

That has absolutely nothing to do with the number of Qantas pilots who failed to apply (or were unsuccessful, or ineligible)!

Bula, yeah I'm ok, thanks for asking. So how about answering the points I raised. Where in the MOU does it say QF pilots will be limited to bidding for DRW basings only?

8.7.1 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost' number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost' number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;

Note the use of 'pilots' - plural, and 'number' - singular.

Multiple pilots don't apply = 1 ghost number deleted.

and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots

How do you know that those 37 were eligible? Some might not have had enough hours. Some might be SOs.

I think we can all agree that the intent of the MOU is to give QF pilots the opportunity to access up to 1/3 of the commands in JQ (and vice versa). And after the MOU being ignored by the company for years, QF pilots now have 23% of the 400 commands in JQ. You are still 40 commands ahead of where you should be.

And yet you still want more .....

Not a case of not being awarded a slot, no one wanted it, that's why the clause is being called into question. The MoU does not say Darwin. You have access to a Q number, the position advertised were Darwin based, in accordance with the BS JQ EBA.

Applications must be eligible and suitable. That's the wording of the MoU end of story.

As for being 40 commands behind I don't think that is quite how things are. Remember the Q numbers are 7 in 20 throughout the seniority list. We are already at a point where all Q numbers above where a JQ command slot would be awarded are now filled. From now on all Ghost commands are 7 in 20. No one is ahead, no one is behind. I feel for the guys and gals who didn't jump earlier, but at the end of the day it's their own decision albeit not a decision of their own making.

Access to Q numbers may have been delayed because of work choices and mainline management. In fact at the pick up rate that Q numbers have been filled when advertised throughout history, I wouldn't be second guessing how many have been taken VS how many have been taken now we have "sailors in the water".

Dumbfounding Keg, laughable.. No.. Dumbfounding... ABSOLUTELY (to coin a phrase).

I don't expect you to give a toss it took me nearly 14 years to command and 11 years as an F/O.

Keg your damn right I couldn't give a rats but I was wondering how long it would be before we were all enlightened!

Hairdresser is correct: the Q numbers to be deleted should be based on the number of slots, not something as arbitrary as the total of all intervening seniority numbers. 2 positions were unfilled, not 37.

This is also the company's interpretation.

Ultimately though it will come down to whether AIPA agrees or not.

For what it's worth, QANTAS pilots (indeed, many of us in the industry) are well aware of what it feels like to see your promotion prospects go to someone else. :\

I think it's pretty obvious that the intent of 8.7.1 is to impose a penalty on QF pilots if they failed to bid for a slot.

The only reason it is 37 is that 50 odd JQ guys and gals also said no.

Are you trying to tell me that it was also intended that the size of the penalty (37 numbers in this case) was to be determined by something as random as how many JQ pilots failed to bid for the slot? Something that no QF pilot has any influence over. Might as well just spin a roulette wheel.

Oh well, it should be a fairly short hearing.

I ask that you stop for one second and put yourselves in the shoes of a Jetstar FO who has been in the company for 4-5 years and very close to a command before the influx from QF

Keg your damn right I couldn't give a rats but I was wondering how long it would be before we were all enlightened!

LOL, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Keg your damn right I couldn't give a rats...

So why do you expect me to care about the long suffering, down trodden four year JQ F/O who is seeing 'their' command 'stolen' by a QF driver? Again, the issue is the hypocrisy of your call for unity and empathy for the downtrodden 4yr JQ F/O at the same time as you demonstrate zero empathy and actively work on a interpretation that promotes DIS-unity towards those who have been in the group longer. I'm beyond being astounded that you don't see the irony in this. I'm used to it now.

LOL, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Livs hairdresser I can now see why you blokes are having problems interpreting the MOU!

Keg your damn right I couldn't give a rats but I was wondering how long it would be before we were all enlightened!

Notam, You truly exemplify what is wrong with the industry today.

You call for unity and understanding of others predicaments then come out with that clanger.

What a hypocrite (and few other choice names I can think of.)!! :mad::mad:

Ugly Brother,

From the responses that I received to my initial post is there any wonder why? The attitudes displayed is exactly the reason why guys at JQ are quickly loosing sympathy. The majority of the MOU pilots that have come across to JQ are good guys who are just grateful they still have a job. Maybe others on this site should adopt the same attitude!

Nothing wrong with my interpreting skills, mate.

The majority of the MOU pilots that have come across to JQ are good guys who are just grateful they still have a job.

And yet you are working towards preventing 37 more good guys from being able to apply for that job, even though the MOU entitles them to.

Maybe you should look up the definition of 'hypocrite' before you make any further posts.

The majority of the MOU pilots that have come across to JQ are good guys who are just grateful they still have a job.

Sorry to have to correct you while you are on your "soap box" but the above mentioned guys were NOT at risk of losing their "jobs" at QF. If they are, we are all finished. :{ Career progression etc is a different matter!

The individuals that would have benefitted most from the MOU (and in your words "be grateful they still have a job") are the ones that can't access the MOU and won't be able to go anywhere else if redundancies occur.

...even though the MOU entitles them to.

Well that remains to be seen!

Well that remains to be seen!

Either you are extremely arrogant or your Dutch! :E

Sorry to have to correct you while you are on your "soap box" but the above mentioned guys were NOT at risk of losing their "jobs" at QF. If they are, we are all finished. Career progression etc is a different matter!

There is that 'have your cake and eat it' mentality again. And then guys scratch their heads at JQ boys/girls calling for deletion of Q numbers! :ugh:

Wow, what a thread.

Anyway, I'm a QF MOU F/O and have chosen not to exercise that right for various reasons (none of them anything against JQ or the people in it). I would fully support JQ pilots - if Alan Joyce ever decides to expand mainline again - exercising their reciprocal rights under the MOU to take QF slots. The fact that nothing attractive is available at the moment, and what might be available isn't being advertised is not some dastardly scheme I've personally dreamed up. That's just the way things are and there is diddly squat I can do about it. What has been said about QF pilots actually having to fight tooth & nail to even get the company to actually advertise these slots at all, is correct.

So not 2 days ago in MEL a Jetstar crew walk past me and I go to say a friendly gidday to the F/O, who deliberately looks away from me and walks straight past about 12 inches from me.

Thanks a friggin lot mate. Thanks a lot. You've been listening a little too much to some of your colleagues on this thread. I'm not your enemy, nor am I about to start trying to be. I'm just here doing my job like you are, paying a mortgage and trying to juggle my career to survive the whims of a recalcitrant and aggressive management as best I can.

NOTAM, I work for the other crowd so I don't have a dog in this fight. The way I see it, the MOU allows QF pilots to bid for commands in J* as a way to acheive an equivalency of out outcomes given their loss of career opportunities. You now want to move the goal posts so as advantage neophyte J* pilots over more experienced QF pilots. This is wrong.

THe attitude that I see being expressed is that you guys want full access to ALL future J* commands and that any displaced QF pilots can either rot where they are, leave the industry or go overseas. Aside from the obvious loss of industrial experience and history that would result, waht of the personal costs? Evidently, some J* pilots are content to have QF pilots lose their jobs so as you can enjoy a premature promotion.

In my book, anyone with this sort of outlook does not possess the maturity for a command position. With only 4-5 years as an FO, you would not possess the experience base to be fully effective in the role either.:cool:

Hi Anthill,

I have to say that I feel you are wrong in you first paragraph.

4.1 of the MOU states what it is for.

4.1 The intention of this MOU is to provide for the reciprocal exchange of career opportunities.

JQ pilots do not want all future commands they want to play by the rules of the MOU as they have been up to and including now.

Dutchroll, Im not justifying what happened to you by any means, I think it's pretty poor. That being said, what's your take on JQ staff travelling on QF who have been told on more than one occasion, "sorry but the tech crew have advised that the jumpseat is not available to Jetstar crew"?

that being said, what's your take on JQ staff travelling on QF who have been told on more than one occasion, "sorry but the tech crew have advised that the jumpseat is not available to Jetstar crew"?

So now the truth surfaces, you have an axe to grind because you didn't get a jumpseat one time.

Pathetic. :ugh:

4.1 The intention of this MOU is to provide for the reciprocal exchange of career opportunities.

It will hopefully one day. To trash the MOU now would be extremely short sighted. :=

Is any JQ pilot senior enough for a QF command?

So a thread discussing the interpretation, implementation and changes to a controversial clause between two different companies and industrial groups has now degenerated to a comparison of who has been snubbed by whom when passing each other at the airport? :rolleyes:

I guess the only suprise is that it's taken ten pages to get to this.

DIVOSH!

P.S. Don't think anyone's enabled Godwins law though... :O

Liv Hairdresser, no one is working towards preventing 37 more good guys from being able to apply for that job. Last count there is some 200 Ghost positions still available. To say someone is trying to "steal" a job is a little bit half ass'd considering we are all are assuming that each other's interpretation of the MoU is correct or incorrect as the case may be. Trashing the MoU isn't the point either and for those who hadn't realised, the MoU doesn't just involve command opportunities.

The individuals that would have benefitted most from the MOU (and in your words "be grateful they still have a job") are the ones that can't access the MOU and won't be able to go anywhere else if redundancies occur.

Couldn't agree more which is why we need something in place to help support those "at the Bottom" of both lists.

All this about ghost numbers for guys who have a job, "stealing jobs" and the like...., on both sides of the fence, please enough horses$it about he said she said.

So now the truth surfaces, you have an axe to grind because you didn't get a jumpseat one time.

Lol, clutching at straws mate but very comical :D

Do you guys have level 6 English?

Hairdresser is correct: the Q numbers to be deleted should be based on the number of slots, not something as arbitrary as the total of all intervening seniority numbers. 2 positions were unfilled, not 37.

Are you trying to tell me that it was also intended that the size of the penalty (37 numbers in this case) was to be determined by something as random as how many JQ pilots failed to bid for the slot? Something that no QF pilot has any influence over. Might as well just spin a roulette wheel.

It has nothing to do with the number of pilots that did or did not apply, it has nothing to do with the number slots or vacancies available, it all about opportunity. The MOU clearly states if there is an opportunity to access a command position and no one takes that opportunity then the ghost number is deleted. This process is repeated until there are no more opportunities. It has been said before that one vacancy can create lots of opportunities. Every seniority number above the most junior pilot to be awarded the command had an OPPORTUNITY to access the command. That includes Q numbers. That is how seniority works.

Bula sums it up perfectly

For example

001 - 006 - All JQ numbers, all say no thanks.
007 - Ghost number- no suitable application DELETED
008-014 - All JQ numbers, all say no thanks
015 - Ghost Number - no suitable application DELETED

So on and so forth.

Ready, Fire, Aim.

I guess we will see you in court - that is where this is headed.

Before you launch off to court you may want to find a QF pilot that missed an opportunity for command. Keep in mind that the only reason a Jetstar pilot got a command in Darwin is because ALL QF pilots gave up the opportunity for command and every JQ pilot senior to that pilot also rejected the opportunity for command.

I think we can all agree that the intent of the MOU is to give QF pilots the opportunity to access up to 1/3 of the commands in JQ (and vice versa). And after the MOU being ignored by the company for years, QF pilots now have 23% of the 400 commands in JQ. You are still 40 commands ahead of where you should be.

And yet you still want more .....

I think you should read the MOU as it clearly states the intent. The JQ pilots are not going to continue to give away 7 in 20 or 35% of all future commands for nothing in return. You already have 23% of all JQ commands for nothing and yet you want more. Your arrogance and sense of entitlement knows no bounds. At least the JPC is standing up for the JQ pilots. The JQ AIPA reps are doing a bloody good puppet show with their AIPA puppetmasters hands firmly jammed up their backsides. The only AIPA reps with any backbone to stand up for the JQ pilots have left or were forced out.

The JQ pilots are not going to continue to give away 7 in 20 or 35% of all future commands for nothing in return. You already have 23% of all JQ commands for nothing and yet you want more. Your arrogance and sense of entitlement knows no bounds.

wow. Hyperbole much?

"all future commands" ?? Have you even read the MOU or are you just taking stabs in the dark to keep those damned qantas skygods out of your airline?!

"want more" ?? no, just the application of the MOU as it stands, thank you very much.

There was one ghost number for a command position that was not bid for by eligible Qantas pilots, agreed that Ghost number shall be deleted.

The next range of seniority numbers in question (37) shall now be retained as these may be filled by the next round of Qantas applicants wishing to join Jetstar as First Officers.

The next Ghost Number is now available per clause 10 regarding First Officers.

Is there some exclusion statement, where a Qantas Pilot can not join Jetstar as a first Officer senior to the Junior most Jetstar Captain?

As one posted said previously, seniority or ghost numbers are for individuals & need not be rank or base specific.

Or are we now deleting senior Jetstar First Officer positions as well?

Is any JQ pilot senior enough for a QF command?


No.


well, not yet.... The time will come, hell, the 737 is now going back to cooly; expansion - pretty neat eh, never know what that could mean :ok:

It has nothing to do with the number of pilots that did or did not apply

Bula sums it up perfectly

For example

001 - 006 - All JQ numbers, all say no thanks.
007 - Ghost number- no suitable application DELETED
008-014 - All JQ numbers, all say no thanks
015 - Ghost Number - no suitable application DELETED

So on and so forth.


Er, haven't you just proved your first statement is completely wrong with your second? Let me ask you this. If JQ number 8 had been awarded the last slot, how many ghost numbers would be deleted? Now, if JQ number 88 had been awarded the slot, how many ghost numbers would be deleted? In each case, are the number of deleted ghost slots different? Do QF pilots have any influence over this?

The JQ pilots are not going to continue to give away 7 in 20 or 35% of all future commands for nothing in return. You already have 23% of all JQ commands for nothing and yet you want more.

Who said anything about future commands? I'm talking about past commands that should have gone to QF pilots if the company had honoured the MOU.

Anyway, I'm a QF MOU F/O and have chosen not to exercise that right for various reasons (none of them anything against JQ or the people in it). I would fully support JQ pilots - if Alan Joyce ever decides to expand mainline again - exercising their reciprocal rights under the MOU to take QF slots. The fact that nothing attractive is available at the moment, and what might be available isn't being advertised is not some dastardly scheme I've personally dreamed up.

Translation = there are no J numbers senior to me on the list. Big of you to support JQ pilots coming across to QF given that they will not impact your promotional or basing prospects.

NOTAM, I work for the other crowd so I don't have a dog in this fight. The way I see it, the MOU allows QF pilots to bid for commands in J* as a way to acheive an equivalency of out outcomes given their loss of career opportunities. You now want to move the goal posts so as advantage neophyte J* pilots over more experienced QF pilots. This is wrong.

How about VB give 35% of all future commands to QF for nothing in return so the QF pilot can achieve an equivalency of outcomes given their loss of career opportunities. Good luck selling that to the VB boys and girls. The MOU is clearly not providing a reciprocal exchange of career opportunities between JQ and QF as is required.

THe attitude that I see being expressed is that you guys want full access to ALL future J* commands and that any displaced QF pilots can either rot where they are, leave the industry or go overseas. Aside from the obvious loss of industrial experience and history that would result, waht of the personal costs? Evidently, some J* pilots are content to have QF pilots lose their jobs so as you can enjoy a premature promotion.

A premature promotion. Are you serious? Everyone has made choices, the ones that chose Jetstar should get 100% of all commands UNLESS there is a reciprocal exchange of career opportunities. Was there any Aussie company bypassing their own qualified FO’s to accommodate the experienced Ansett FO’s so they could come in as DEC’s after it collapsed?

I've missed it all along - and I thought there was two sides to the MOU :ugh: :hmm::rolleyes:

Keith, there is a 737 F/O or A380/B747 S/O position waiting if you want it. Go get it, stop complaining about no mutual exchange opportunities. Your JQ MOU number in QF does not give you a CMD. Dont you guys get it ? Your top 130 JQ guys dont want the mutual opportunity. Get over it. When they get a QF CMD opportunity for 3 years under the MOU they will take it I'm sure. Go read the document.

no, just the application of the MOU as it stands, thank you very much.

I think that pretty much sums up both sides of the argument. Unfortunately, the document appears to have been so poorly written as to allow more than 1 interpretation for the current set of circumstances.

The sad bit is that any independent advice or other arbitrary determination for the sake of dispute resolution is going to piss off at least 1 group of pilots.

Lol. There are post 2004 employed QF drivers who say that JQ crew are more than entitled to bid for a command (or any other slot they like) before the QF driver as a result of the ghost numbers. They're happy for it to occur because that's the way the agreement is written, that's what was in place when they joined Qantas.

Were the reverse happening and people coming to Qantas I'd be telling our junior QF crew to get back in their box as it's entirely the JQ's pilot entitlement to access one of those ghost numbers.

Although, if we take the J* attitude as precedence, given there are QF F/Os that are junior to about 90 of those MoU numbers we can just go ahead and delete them. :ugh: :rolleyes:

wow. Hyperbole much?

"all future commands" ?? Have you even read the MOU or are you just taking stabs in the dark to keep those damned qantas skygods out of your airline?!

"want more" ?? no, just the application of the MOU as it stands, thank you very much.

What you Quote is exactly what is happening. Who said anything about damned skygods. The blokes who have come to date are the usual mix of good blokes and morons you would expect from any sample, including our own. As far as I’m concerned the blokes that have come to date are the smartest guys in the room.

Er, haven't you just proved your first statement is completely wrong with your second? Let me ask you this. If JQ number 8 had been awarded the last slot, how many ghost numbers would be deleted? Now, if JQ number 88 had been awarded the slot, how many ghost numbers would be deleted? In each case, are the number of deleted ghost slots different? Do QF pilots have any influence over this?

The Qantas guys have no control over how many Q numbers get deleted IF they all forgo an opportunity for command. Every Q number above the last command allocated is deleted as every number above that position has had an OPPORTUNITY for command.

Evidently, some J* pilots are content to have QF pilots lose their jobs so as you can enjoy a premature promotion.

Anthill, premature promotion? WTF? Do you care to explain this stupid comment? :mad:

Keith, there is a 737 F/O or A380/B747 S/O position waiting if you want it. Go get it, stop complaining about no mutual exchange opportunities. Your JQ MOU number in QF does not give you a CMD. Dont you guys get it ? Your top 130 JQ guys dont want the mutual opportunity. Get over it. When they get a QF CMD opportunity for 3 years under the MOU they will take it I'm sure. Go read the document.

The MOU actually says “reciprocal exchange of career opportunities” Did you work with Boston Bruce? He also had strange ideas on so called opportunities. I hardly think it's a ‘career opportunity’ to take a demotion. You QF guys have everything to gain and nothing to lose with this MOU as you know very well that there is bugger all chance of a JQ330 skipper taking a demotion to FO or B737 CMD. If they don't take the command the J number is deleted. Why do you think the JQ boys are trying to put the brakes on the one way traffic. They have been copping it up the Khyber for the last few years and now some people with a backbone are looking out for the new guys.

The blokes who have come to date are the usual mix of good blokes and morons you would expect from any sample, including our own.

I'm pretty sure just about everyone on here has you pegged for one of those categories, Keith.

Do you listen to others when you are in the cockpit, or do you save your ignorance for Pprune and the AFAP?

Do you listen to others when you are in the cockpit, or do you save your ignorance for Pprune and the AFAP?

Beware it seems to be a 2 way street in this discussion. Maybe something constructive is in order rather than a personal sore blow from someone behaving like a 3 year old.

from the MOU;
18. Creation of 'ghost' seniority numbers in Qantas for
Jetstar pilots and appointment of Jetstar pilots to Qantas
Pursuant to clause 11 of the MOU, and notwithstanding clause 13
of the Certified Agreement, from the date that the MOU comes into
effect and until it is terminated, seven (7) in each twenty (20)
new seniority numbers will be 'ghost' numbers that can be used
by eligible Jetstar pilots (as defined in clause 2.2 of the MOU)
to access First Officer or Captain positions in Qantas, and will
continue or be deleted, in accordance with the terms of the MOU.
This Letter of Agreement will operate from the date the MOU takes
effect (i.e. on and from 3 November 2004) and can only be varied,
rescinded or replaced by the mutual agreement of the parties.

So, just to dispel a myth,

Keith, there is a 737 F/O or A380/B747 S/O position waiting if you want it.

No there isn't, s/o positions are not covered in the MOU.

The MOU actually says “reciprocal exchange of career opportunities” Did you work with Boston Bruce? He also had strange ideas on so called opportunities. I hardly think it's a ‘career opportunity’ to take a demotion. QF guys have everything to gain and nothing to lose with this MOU as you know very well that there is bugger all chance of a JQ330 skipper taking a demotion to FO or B737 CMD.

True. At the moment. But that is a very narrow minded and short term way of looking at this. All of us have hopefully a long term career in this group and to cut off opportunities now either way because you can't get your slot in mainline/Jetstar doesn't mean that this situation wont change in five years. Yes the flow is one way at the moment but can you guarantee it will always be that way?? Are you prepared to risk it considering how quickly aviation can change??? If you are you are a gamer person than I am. :rolleyes:

The Qantas guys have no control over how many Q numbers get deleted

Yep, that's the whole point. Do you honestly think the intent of the MOU is to delete an arbitrary number of ghost numbers, based on the vagaries of how JQ FOs bid?

Every Q number above the last command allocated is deleted as every number above that position has had an OPPORTUNITY for command.

No they haven't. To use your example



001 - 006 - All JQ numbers, all say no thanks.
007 - Ghost number- no suitable application DELETED
008-014 - All JQ numbers, all say no thanks
015 - Ghost Number - no suitable application DELETED

So on and so forth.

If JQ advertise 1 command slot and 1 QF pilot applies, that pilot is applying for Ghost number 7. If 10 QF pilots apply, all 10 pilots are applying for Ghost number 7. Nobody has had the opportunity to apply for Ghost number 15, or any other Ghost number. And that remains true no matter if the slot is awarded to JQ number 8, 80 or 800.

How about VB give 35% of all future commands to QF for nothing in return so the QF pilot can achieve an equivalency of outcomes given their loss of career opportunities. Good luck selling that to the VB boys and girls. The MOU is clearly not providing a reciprocal exchange of career opportunities between JQ and QF as is required.

VB was not born out of Qantas... Jetstar was....

VB is not a Qantas group airline, Jetstar is...

VB pilots did not agree to the MOU.... Jetstar pilots did...no?? (I'm actually not sure on this but would assume so...was it not voted in by pre 2004 Jetstar pilots (and Q pilots), or was it forced on them?? If so part of below is not exactly applicable...)

Pilots post 2004 that have a problem with the MOU, only have their colleagues to blame.... Just as any pilot who joins the a company which has "dubious" conditions/terms/rules in an EBA they are employed under only have their colleagues who voted on said EBA to blame.... And really don't have much of an argument as THEY joined the company knowing said conditions existed.... IF they spent more than two seconds researching and accepting the gig they were taking....

Whilst I wouldn't go so far as to say Jetstar pilots owe their jobs to Q pilots, they've worked hard and made their own way..... They must still recognise however that Jetstar, as a Qantas group airline, owes its success to Q.... It's blantently obvious the Jetstar has been propped up by Q through funny book keeping, airframe donations, fine payments, cheap maint and ground support etc etc etc.... Unless of course you believe the spin.... Which if you do....then there is no saving you, nor a reasoned argument that will change your mind....

At the end of the day, we have to recognise that we ALL just pawns being used to fight each other in a game that we have little control over.....

Was there any Aussie company bypassing their own qualified FO’s to
accommodate the experienced Ansett FO’s so they could come in as DEC’s after it
collapsed?


Why would ther have been? The analogy to the J*/QF situation is irrelevant, meaningless and illogical. Other than that, it is hardly worth further comment.



Anthill, premature promotion? WTF?


Sure, if a 4 year J* FO gets a command before a 10 year QF FO who has rights according to the MOU, then it is premature. Especially since a 4 year pilot would not have effectively learned their trade.

It is evident that there are some in J*who seek to move the goal posts to their own advantage. Ah, the great art of politics! When I see this sort of manuoevring, I am filled with disgust :*. And then you expect unity? Bwwwhahahaha!! :} Get real. I can hardly wait to retire and tell this industry to get fcuked ;)

Was there any Aussie company bypassing their own qualified FO’s to
accommodate the experienced Ansett FO’s so they could come in as DEC’s after it collapsed?

Yes, that company is called Jetstar.

Sure, if a 4 year J* FO gets a command before a 10 year QF FO who has rights according to the MOU, then it is premature

And so then using your logic every JQ FO that has been awarded a command during periods when the MOU has not been active (ie slots not advertised to Q drivers OR when Q drivers were given the OPPORTUNITY but did not accept it), has been awarded it prematurely? :ugh:

Especially since a 4 year pilot would not have effectively learned their trade.

Who says so? If they have met the requirements for a command set by the company and are checked to line as a captain then they are proficient at their trade. Do you flaunt the same theories at your company?:rolleyes:

It is evident that there are some in J*who seek to move the goal posts to their own advantage.

No one is trying to shift the goal posts. Guys just want the MOU to operate as those who wrote it intended it to operate, pure and simple!

But the guys who wrote it did not intend it to operate as you suggest. :cool:

Guys just want the MOU to operate as those who wrote it intended it to operate, pure and simple!

Isn't that what it is doing?

When it was written, it was kind of an insurance policy for both sides. For the JQ guys, it offered insurance should the Jetstar model go nowhere (like Dixon said - only 14 aircraft). At the time, QF expanded rapidly as well. hundreds of commands and new hires.

Nobody knew how it would pan out. Both QF and JQ pilots agreed it was the best way to look after their interests AT THAT FORESEEABLE TIME, those joining after could accept it or go elsewhere if they didn't like it.

Yes they did... well some who orchestrated it on behalf on the JQ side did ... and there in lyes the point.

It is written in a way in which both definitions have to be considered in the eyes of the law. Leave it to the Barristers rather than armchair lawyers.

There is no point in some of the blatant skull daggery that is going on, from both sides.

I can hardly wait to retire and tell this industry to get fcuked :E

If JQ advertise 1 command slot and 1 QF pilot applies, that pilot is applying for Ghost number 7. If 10 QF pilots apply, all 10 pilots are applying for Ghost number 7. Nobody has had the opportunity to apply for Ghost number 15, or any other Ghost number. And that remains true no matter if the slot is awarded to JQ number 8, 80 or 800.

Liv, using your example, if a QF pilot takes the opportunity to fill the vacancy at No 7 then there will be no more opportunities and no Q numbers will be deleted. I’ll try to make it simple for you, here’s a list from lunchbox legends airlines LLA:

1-Maggot
2-Mstr Caution
3-B
4-Livs Hairdresser
5-Outside limits
6-B
7-unseen
8-Anthill
9-B
10-Balance
11-Stalins ugly Brother
12-B
13-DutchRoll
14-Capt_SNAFU
15-B
16-Keg
17-FFRATS
18-B
19-*Lancer*

Seniority is used to allocate opportunities at LLA. There is 1 CMD vacancy advertised and the only eligible sheila/bloke to bid for it is Keg. Answer these three questions

1) Has every seniority number above Keg had an OPPORTUNITY to access a command?
2) How many OPPORTUNITIES did one vacancy create?
3) Does the number of opportunities change depending upon how people bid?

LLA has a MOU that was written by the genius factory at AIPA with Back at Ansett Airlines BAA. This MOU either converts the ghost numbers to actual seniority numbers or deletes them or retains them as follows:

1) Deletion

if an opportunity is available for a BAA pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable BAA pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;

2) Retention

a) if applications for an opportunity are received from eligible and suitable BAA pilots, but none of those BAA pilots can be released by BAA, then the ‘ghost’ number will be retained in the sequence of numbers;

and

b) if an opportunity is available for a BAA pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a First Officer position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable BAA pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be retained in the sequence of numbers for subsequent access by an eligible BAA pilot for a Captain’s vacancy;

3) Conversion

if an appointment is accepted, the ‘ghost’ seniority number will be transferred to the pilot concerned and become the seniority number for that pilot;

Each time a ghost number comes up for CMD it has 3 options: Conversion, Retention or Deletion.

BAA airlines is doing a good impersonation of the Hindenburg, so its management is very happy to offload pilots and retention clause 2a does not apply. The B number at No3 has an opportunity for CMD but no one from BAA applies. Therefore it is deleted. The opportunity passes to Livs Hairdresser, she turns it down, as does outside limits. Now the B number at No 6 has an opportunity for CMD. Now, the clauses that talk about retention of the B number still don’t apply and as there are no applications from BAA pilots for CMD it is deleted. All the other LLA pilots senior to Keg are deemed unsuitable for CMD and the process is repeated until Keg takes the command. The B numbers have to be retained, converted to actual seniority numbers, or deleted in accordance with the clauses. The conversion and retention clauses don't apply, only the deletion clause applies.

Perhaps you should read the MOU and find the clause that says you can RETAIN the 38 ghost numbers that have all had the ability to access a CMD.

You are wrong. You don't understand the document nor the intent. :D

See you in court. ;)

Standby people, the duel is the distraction. The big game is in town soon.

KM,
You haven't said anything new in your post. Are you hoping if you type it enough times it will become true? You've been pretty good at telling everyone else to read the MOU - how about you do so yourself?

An opportunity is:

8.6.1 applying for and being offered a fixed term engagement with Jetstar under this MOU (whether the pilot accepts the offer or not); or
8.6.2 applying for and being considered for a fixed term engagement with Jetstar under this MOU and being found by Jetstar to not meet the Jetstar selection criteria.


So a pilot has to actually apply, and either be accepted or rejected, for it to be considered an opportunity.

1) Has every seniority number above Keg had an OPPORTUNITY to access a command?
No, because they haven't applied for a command.

2) How many OPPORTUNITIES did one vacancy create?
1

3) Does the number of opportunities change depending upon how people bid?
No

When you read 8.6 in conjunction with 8.7.1 it is blindingly obvious that only 1 ghost number should be deleted. Maybe you are in denial.

If your interpretation is correct, how is it possible that in the last round of DRW slots there were QF MOU pilots who were senior to QF MOU pilots already based there. Wouldn't they have already used their 'opportunity'? Maybe you should take them to court as well. Like I said previously, it should be a fairly short hearing.

Dont use my name in your post, Keith. You aren't qualified.

Keith,

Man, you gotta chill....your going to give yourself a heart attack:ok:

Maybe put your energy into fighting AJ and co and stop picking fights with any pilot who doesn't see it your way..

We are all in this together, trying to screw pilots from other parts of our profession because you don't like written, signed and negotiated agreements is only hurting pilots..

Geez, i wouldn't wanna be you if JQ happend to shrink one day and the MOU couldn't be used the other way.:{

Dont use my name in your post, Keith. You aren't qualified.


bah, you're just miffed you ended up at #10

el numero uno :cool:

So having copped that on the chin, even though enough mainline pilots have bid for the slots, several were knocked out on technicalities. A few because they were short of hours, even though they would be well in excess of hours when they started their course. A couple because JQ doesn't recognise their several thousand hours of 146 time. So that last JQ slot you are referring to was well over subscribed, just not allocated to QF for various bull$hit reasons. And that justifies erasing 37 QF numbers.

Para 8.6.2.


An opportunity is:

8.6.1 applying for and being offered a fixed term engagement with Jetstar under this MOU (whether the pilot accepts the offer or not); or
8.6.2 applying for and being considered for a fixed term engagement with Jetstar under this MOU and being found by Jetstar to not meet the Jetstar selection criteria.


So liv are you saying that there were a few opportunities exercised, not just the 1?

LOL @<hidden> maggot. Mate, yours is the only post on this thread thus far that was worth reading!

When you read 8.6 in conjunction with 8.7.1 it is blindingly obvious that only 1 ghost number should be deleted. Maybe you are in denial.

Liv, using your logic you would never delete a Q number unless a Qantas pilot applied for the position, was offered it and then decided not to take it OR was found not to meet the selection criteria. A logical extension of that flawed thinking is that if no Qantas pilots applied for the 25 DRW frozen positions then no Q numbers would be deleted.

Reading the WHOLE of clause 8.6, not just the selective bits you have quoted makes it quiet clear that a Qantas pilot can only apply and be considered for a position ONCE

8.6 An eligible Qantas pilot may only enjoy one opportunity under this MOU. An opportunity is:

8.6.1 applying for and being offered a fixed term engagement with Jetstar under this MOU (whether the pilot accepts the offer or not); or

8.6.2 applying for and being considered for a fixed term engagement with Jetstar under this MOU and being found by Jetstar to not meet the Jetstar selection criteria.

8.7 talks about what happens if there are opportunities for command and NO APPLICATIONS ARE RECEIVED FROM ELIGIBLE AND SUITABLE QANTAS PILOTS.

8.7 ‘Ghost’ numbers will be converted to actual seniority numbers (or deleted or retained), as follows:

8.7.1 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;

8.7.2 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a First Officer position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be retained in the sequence of numbers for subsequent access by an eligible Qantas pilot for a Captain’s vacancy;

8.7.3 if applications for an opportunity are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, but none of those Qantas pilots can be released by Qantas, then the ‘ghost’ number will be retained in the sequence of numbers;

8.7.4 if an appointment is accepted, the ‘ghost’ seniority number will be transferred to the pilot concerned and become the seniority number for that pilot;


Do you see the flaw in your thinking? The contradiction? Clause 8.6 talks about what an opportunity is for a Qantas pilot (i.e. applying for and being considered) and Clause 8.7 talks about what happens if there are NO APPLICATIONS.

Only 3 things can happen to the ghost numbers – Retention, Deletion or Conversion to an actual seniority number. Clause 8.7 regulates all three things. Keith has pointed out that deletion applies and you all seem to be saying that retention applies but cannot find a clause that backs up your story.

Keith, give up mate. Arguing with an imbecile, only brings you down to their level and they are going to win with experience anyway. In your example Liv thinks that no one above keg an opportunity for command, the guy is delusional and should stick to hairdressing.

How about the guys that think you should retain the Q numbers actually find that RETENTION clause that allows you to keep the 38 Q numbers.

From what I’ve seen from AIPA recently, the vindictive attacks against anyone who has actually stood up for the Jetstar FO’s and the timewasting legal bollocks, I am actively questioning my membership. No, even that is not true anymore. After being lied to, seeing good blokes slandered, divisive updates, a comprehensive failure of accountability and an astounding lack of integrity I am tending my resignation this week. AIPA, thanks for showing your true colours, I’m disappointed with myself for not seeing it earlier and I hope the good reps we have don’t walk. To the reps on the subcommittee, you guys have been played – you are good blokes, but you are dancing to the party tune. Everyone thinks you are puppets and you are not standing up for US

In the definitions section of the MOU opportunity is not there.

I believe that 8.6 is talking about how many times a person can use an opportunity. E.G if you apply for the position and fail the interview you are never able to use the MOU again.

I believe that 8.7 is saying that if an opportunity is available for a Q pilot to access E.G DRW CPT position that the Q number be deleted. The opportunity for Q pilot still exists until all CPT positions of the FSO are filled.

AEIO-540

I have read it lol, I guess the MOU does not apply to you? I was talking specifically about those it applies to. Just because your a JQ 330 captain now dosen't mean you wouldn't avail your self of your Q number if they wind up JQ international, and give you the option to enjoy the Journey in Hong Kong or Japan.
For those that joined both JQ and QF post 2004, life is tough, move on.:ok:

Helmut makes an interesting point. Given that JQ international isn't anywhere close to returning it's cost of capital, you may see in the next few years that pressure starts to increase on it.

Is there the opportunity for crew on that aircraft to displace A320 Captains that are junior to them in the event that JQ international is 'downsized' or even 'outsourced'? Perhaps faced with demotion to A320 F/O they may instead prefer to see what their QF ghost number may get them. I haven't looked so I have no idea what that number could actually get them at the moment. Who knows what's going to occur in 2-3 years time. Given the various things that QF drivers have been told over the years and how it's all panned out, you wouldn't trust anything this management say.

Perhaps faced with demotion to A320 F/O they may instead prefer to see what their QF ghost number may get them.

Lol, what an SO position at QF? :D Certainly no shortage of comedians on this thread!

Don't forget that for pilots to transfer it's not just about seniority - but the vacancies being available.

Vacancies are pretty thin on the ground at QF... Indeed they've started to go backwards now (767 RIN), and that's with a few hundred off on LWOP already!

Keith, give up mate. Arguing with an imbecile, only brings you down to their level and they are going to win with experience anyway. In your example Liv thinks that no one above keg an opportunity for command, the guy is delusional and should stick to hairdressing.

Thanks for the tip. At least someone gets it.

How about the guys that think you should retain the Q numbers actually find that RETENTION clause that allows you to keep the 38 Q numbers.

Best advice I've seen for a while. I suggest everyone read leakyboats post.

From what I’ve seen from AIPA recently, the vindictive attacks against anyone who has actually stood up for the Jetstar FO’s and the timewasting legal bollocks, I am actively questioning my membership.

Hear hear. The recent email from AIPA attacking BB has confirmed that I have made the right decision switching to the AFAP. Their true colors are being displayed more and more and it is clear which pilot group's interests they are looking out for. I think more and more JQ drivers are about to follow suit!

If only you guys had got the word out to all the JQ FOs not to bid, you could have gotten rid of every current ghost number.

Bet you the JQ guy who got that last slot feels like a chump!

he wont feel like such a chump when hardlicker closes the base and he ends up back on the east coast miles out of seniority.

When you read 8.6 in conjunction with 8.7.1 it is blindingly obvious that only 1 ghost number should be deleted. Maybe you are in denial.

Liv, using your logic you would never delete a Q number unless a Qantas pilot applied for the position, was offered it and then decided not to take it OR was found not to meet the selection criteria.

No, I was saying Q numbers would be deleted. In fact, that's probably why I used the words "1 ghost number should be deleted".

8.7.1 if an opportunity is available for a Qantas pilot to access a ‘ghost’ number for a command position, and no applications are received from eligible and suitable Qantas pilots, the ‘ghost’ number will be deleted from the sequence of numbers;

So let's say JQ has advertised 1 command slot and I'm a QF pilot that has decided not to bid for it, and now 37 ghost numbers are to be deleted.

1. If I had bid for that command slot, which ghost number would I have been awarded?

2. Are there any circumstances under which I could have been awarded any of the ghost numbers from 2 to 37?

3. If the answer to the last question is no, how is it possible that I, or any other QF pilot, has had an opportunity to access ghost numbers 2 to 37?

Hey, I know what you blokes can use as your closing argument.
It's the constitution. It's MABO. It's just...the vibe.

8.6.1 > 8.7.1
>25 applications were received by "Eligible and suitable" pilots , they we're interviewed and only 24 positions were accepted or given. Why would "ghost" numbers be deleted when it was oversubscribed?
SIMPLE
Back to the main game boys and girls....:ugh: What ax has the JPC to grind?
FFRATS

One GFC trigger was "No DOC" home loans... Sign up low interest with a balloon interest rate payment 3-4years later. People just choose to ignore what they signed up for when it came time to pay balloon rate.... then after more ignorance they defaulted on their home

I believe MOU paragraph 9 title and 9.1 sums up the situation nicely.

"9. Appointments of Qantas Pilots as Captains in Jetstar"

"9.1 When a ghost number in Jetstar Is the next seniority number for a Captains vacancy, then eligible Qantas Pilots may apply for the vacancy"

The term ghost number is tagged to the amount of vacancies advertised.

The amount of opportunities is all BS.

If 25 vacancies are advertised the 25 vacancies are attached to the next 25 available Ghost Numbers.

Adding another 37 ghost seniority numbers to somehow create the false premise there was 65 vacancies is fiction.

bah, you're just miffed you ended up at #10

I'm pretty tickled that I was placed on the list above Keg. :ok:

It wouldn't be a 'tickle' you'd feel, if you 'came beneath Keg' :E

I still can't understand how people can maintain that the were 37 opportunities for QF pilots to become JQ DRW Capt's when there was only 1 additional position available. Had 30 QF pilots applied there was still only going to be ONE pilot granted a position, so how can you maintain there were opportunities for 37?
If you base it on how many could have APPLIED rather than how many could have been AWARDED a slot then you are short changing yourselves by only deleting 37 ghost numbers. There were ~2200 other QF pilots who didn't apply for the (one) slot so why no erase 2200 ghost numbers.

Additionally, if it is true as has been suggested, that there were additional applicants for the DRW positions who were rejected by JQ, then surely this negates clause 8.7.1 as applications WERE received for that last position, they simply weren't successful.

I'm pretty tickled that I was placed on the list above Keg.


Yes, but I'm not happy with that so I'm going to look for a loop hole to have your seniority deleted. :p

Beer Baron.

Statements regarding "opportunities" are smoke and mirrors.

Per para 9 - when the next seniority number on the JQ seniority list for a command is a ghost number. Then that "vacancy" should be published as a position available for a Qantas Pilot.

In that regard. The number of vacancies in the promulgation will equal the amount of ghost numbers on offer.

It is not possible to delete a ghost number unless it has been advertised as a vacancy first.

The other chapters referencing deleting ghost numbers happens after the vacancy has been notified.

For those on Keith Myath's and NOTAM's side of the argument, you may be confident in your interpretation of the words of the agreement, however interpretation of such agreements is somewhat more sophisticated than simply looking at the literal interpretation of the words. If taken to court for interpretation, regard will be given to the context of those words and the intent of the agreement.