Jobs for non-EU pilots

[Rft320]

Hi everyone !! This is my first message at pprune :)... I am currently doing atpl course in Turkey.. after the course i will start A320 family type rating and 100hours of line training... I am wondering that if there is any non-eu pilots that working in european country or anybody knows the process of to get a job in EU contry for non eu pilots... After the flight School i am planning to fly around 1500 hrs in Turkey and then apply for job in EU countries such as UK and Ireland any advice??

[flyboy1818]

Regardless of the hours that you have the main problem is that you need to obtain the right to work in the EU. This at current would be difficult considering the higher number of unemployed pilots within the EU, if anything Turkey has a better market for jobs at current.

[Rft320]

Yes you are right nowadays i can not find many job offers in eu But i have around 2.5 year to finish my school and 1500 hrs flight time so as i understand i will need work permit in eu right?? But how the process is working? i dont think that eu countries gives work permit before you find a job or some agreement so do i need to be employed or first have an agreement with a company to get work permit or i need to have a work permit first ?? how can o get the work permit before applying job in eu ...

[B737Dude]

Hello Buddy,

Hope your well, Where are you planning on doing your Type Rating?

Cheers

[zondaracer]

i dont think that eu countries gives work permit before you find a job or some agreement so do i need to be employed or first have an agreement with a company to get work permit or i need to have a work permit first ?? how can o get the work permit before applying job in eu

Each country is different, but generally speaking at the current time, you need a work permit before you get a job, as no airline that I am aware of is sponsoring foreign pilots to come fly for them. How can you get a work permit? In many cases it is quite difficult, and each country has its own rules, and even then, your work permit will be limited to the country that issued the permit. What I am trying to say is that your chances are very slim.

Also, a large percentage of airlines these days are asking for an EU/EEC passport as a requirement to apply, aka you need citizenship.

[Rft320]

@B737Dude
Hey !!! I will get A320 family Type Rating 100 hrs of Line Training from Atlasjet Airlines .... Currently i am trainee at Atlasjet's corporate school AFA ( Atlantic Flight Academy) just get the PPL and doing PIC XCountry flights :) ..

@zondaracer
Thanks a lot for information it looks it will be difficult but i dont think that impossible.. In some years maybe we will become a part of EU so then No difficulties at all.. It is a bit unfair because there are a lot of foreigners (Spanish, Italian, English, etc..) working in Turkey and international recruitment is very easy and with benefits...Also i will get the same license as EU pilots.. All about politics...

[B737Dude]

Thats good! I only thought atlasjet did 500 hours line training :) is there chance of employment after your 100 hours line training?

[Rft320]

Yes if a trainee pilot from AFA finishes the atpl course + type rating + line training successfully they will directly enter to Atlasjet .. The company wants to train its own pilots.... But i know some other foreign pilots that they are doing 500 hrs of line training but they arent graduated from AFA

[Rft320]

@lightson

1 ) I Really dont understand you .. There is nothing wrong in my question that to answer it rudely.. I just wanted to learn how the process is going and if there is an example of it

2 ) It is not your business that why i want to go or why i want learn how the process is ... i have still some years to find my way everything can change .. i can not understand where you can find that much power to talk about my life and advice me ridicilious things.. ( being refugee)

3 ) Dont worry .. I don t even need to ask myself that "why i am doing this" it is stupid question for me but i see not for you ... it is same as asking that " what is my name ",for me

4) when i am reading your message over and over again i can not see any professional Comment.. Sorry i can not take you serious in that way .. Also it is clear that you dont bother to be taken serious..

5)lastly it is such a shame that being part of the same market as people you are which they dont know the how to talk other even they dont like it ... This is not what i saw when i was growed up from my aviator family ...

Take care..

[Rft320]

@lightson

if i would see a light in your message i would appreciate you.. You can easily see that my previous reply to zondaracer at 6th message under the topic...

You are sending a message and it is like i made a crime and you are judging me.. i can not find anything better than accusing between your lines...

Probably you are older and experience makes difference in every part of the life but especially in aviation, i am just graduated from E&E engineering and started to my aviation life but i choose that long time ago...

No never give up advicing to other if you have something to tell... but not the way you text to me

Yes it is true , aviation means to learn everyday, i hope you learn today that not to talk in that way with people which you want to advice and without prejudice

i dont want to argue under this topic anymore it is out of target so if you want to say something more just pm to me

Good like to you aswell 'doesnt matter where ever you come from'

[ATPMBA]

Hey guys, treat Rft320 with respect.

If you mess up in Turkey he may someday be your prison guard.

[Rft320]

@lightson
I see that you are very rhapsodic person that can not resist yourself to saying something , and talking without thinking..

No i am not afraid to talk about anything, so talk..

[truckflyer]

Not getting into a political complicated situation, but I doubt very much that Turkey will become a EU member very soon, with the current crisis already evolving due to EU's lack of judgement with regards to accepting countries, that clearly was not ready to be in the EU!

So that is probably the major issue at this moment of time that you would be facing.

Second, why not stay in Turkey? There are loads of EU pilots paying to fly in your country, why not get one of those jobs that they must have available! Get hours, time, experience and look for new greener fields in ME or Asia, there is nothing interesting to see in the EU these days!

EU as it looks now, will become smaller rather than larger, so on that basis I would not spend my time thinking about EU, until you see what happens in the future, and than a lot of changes would have to take place within your local CAA to be accepted by EASA etc., so this will be a long process regardless, you are talking at least 10 years or more! Personally I don't see it happening ever!

[Rft320]

@truckflyer

I dont think that crisis will last more than 2 years more ... Every crisis like a tide wave ... Maybe it will cost a lot for the EU that they will need to change many things..

For now thats true that it is easier find oportunity in Turkey than EU.. But it wont be always like that ....For sure i will spend some time in Turkey and Also i will turn back to my motherland at the end..

I have been before in many EU countries and Also lived in Ireland for 6 months as an erasmus exchange student.. So my point is, EU is matching to my life especially UK and Ireland and i have many close friends there and Also i want to experience it with being part of it not just landing to EU airports.. for now it looks difficult for me to get something there but i will see in some years.. If enviroment will be ok Why not heading to EU :)

I am also thinking to go to Hong Kong but it is big cultural difference to me .. Everybody is alone and rush in there :)

So i believe in that there will be many oportunities for everybody who is doing their jobs proper.. maybe it just takes sometime nowadays but aviation is always getting bigger than before Maybe not in EU now but i am sure it will rise again..

Thanks a lot

[truckflyer]

I have lived and worked in Hong Kong, I have also been to Istanbul!

Culture difference to HK is probably less than to Europe!
However I think that you will find that the xxx.xxx thousands of pilots that are unemployed in EU land, probably do not want Turkey to become EU member as it is already a struggle to find a job.

Second, if you ever get a chance, you will most likely need money to pay for your own TR!

This does not differ over the frontiers, USA / EU same issue, most EU citizens can not work in the USA, and vice versa, however all can go to Middle East and Asia!

2 years crisis, good you can be optimistic, it has already lasted nearly 3 years, as far as I can see, and just recently gone worse!

The last thing EU needs now, is to be flooded by millions of Turkish people, please do not take this the wrong way, the EU politicians normally do what they want to do, but not even they can be that out of touch with the people within EU now.

I have pilot friends from Greece, that tell me the reality, and it is worse than we can imagine!

[Rft320]

I am going to pay for my TR in Turkey aswell i think this is same in every place...

No i am not taking it wrong it is normal to be afraid of that but even if Turkey would be the part EU i dont think that they will go to EU in crisis me neither..

Really ? I didnt know that USA citizens can not work in EU, i heard that they just need to do license conversion and Also same for EU licenses to FAA..

Yes the crisis already lasted 3 years , but you think it will last forever or how long?? It has to finish someday right ?? Unemployment in aviation is rising or decreasing over EU not just in bankrupted country ? Maybe i am wrong and can not onserve it well because i am not in the market yet..

So when the enviroment will be ok and when there will be oportunities i will try to find something.. I know many pilots that some of them wants to go Emirates some of them to HK , not just Turkish also EU , and not just only for money , to experience it and i can not find anything wrong with that.. i hope everybody will get their wishes , ofcourse there are many bad stories i feel sorry about it as well maybe i will be the one of them when i finished the school nobody can give the guarantee for anyone to get a job, as i remember the crisis of begining of the 2000s many Turkish pilots lost their jobs and they even didnt have chance to get a job in some other country ..

[truckflyer]

EU member states must unanimously agree on Turkey's membership for the Turkish accession to be successful. In December 2011, a poll showed that as much as 71% of the participants surveyed in Austria, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Spain and the UK were opposed to Turkey's membership in the European Union.

Accession of Turkey to the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union#Effect_upon_the_EU )


I would predict a riot if those lunatics in Brussels allowed Turkey EU membership, personally I think you would find most people within the EU against it, unless they have particular personal interest in it!
So I would not waste my time on waiting for it to happen, because I very much doubt it will happen in our lifetime!

If you from USA you need a work permit, you will not get a work permit in EU based only on your profession alone, not as a pilot, as there are plenty of unemployed pilots already in EU. The same applies the other way around, EU pilots can not work in the USA.

These are immigration laws that are followed. You would not be able to work in Australia either, only if the country / company need pilots will they provide you with immigration papers etc., like example Hong Kong/China or in the Middle East.

For some this is a sensitive subject, and because of political correctness you are should not say your opinion it seems, but regarding this be prepared to meet a wall as high as the Mount Everest!

Of course you can get married in EU, than problem solved with regards to work after a certain amount of time, however don't believe the hype of marriage either! :}

Another question would be, If you flying in Turkey, why would you want to come and live in the UK? Only one reason I guess, because higher pay, but also much more expenses! If you want higher pay you might as well work hard and try to get in with Emirates!
Unless you like haze, rain and clouds! Summer is already over in the UK, I think it was 2 weeks early May!

[aozc]

Generelly the net pay in Turkey is actually higher than what you recieve in the UK, most companies will also pay for a good health insurance etc so the overall package is most of the time not better in the UK. However you fly a little less in the UK.

Experiencewise the ale and football culture in the UK is superb, however the women, food, weather, accommodation, living costs, outdoor activities, security and overall outlook is not :E

Take one thing at a time, aviation is going through severe changes each year.

[Rft320]

@truckflyer

I dont think that it will be taht long that Turkey will be part of EU. I just read toady at newspaper that process is started and there will be no VISA needed between EU and Turkey both ways in few years. Yes maybe it is true, people oppese to Turkey but it is just becasue of prejudice and maybe religion staff.. Ofcourse turkey needs to improve itself in some topics..

check this it can help a bit maybe..

Turkey is more than you know - YouTube

And also why should i wait that to become a part of EU, i have many friends that they are working in EU as an engineer, so if the there will be enough vacancies in the future why not??

no it is not all about the money .. In Turkey the salary band is almost the same and the life is much cheaper then UK .. If i would think about the money as first place i would definetly try ME as first place...

I wrote before why i want it , i cant not get experience with the money..

[Rft320]

@aozc

yes thats my point the lifestyle is matching to me yeah every place some good and some bad side important thing is which is more refers to you :)

[truckflyer]

I have Turkish friends, and I loved my 48 hours in Istanbul in 2005!

It is not really about prejudice either, of course I know there are young modern people, who probably want to adapt the "western lifestyle", which I can understand!

And as "aozc" pointed out, besides the football, there is not to much sunny stuff in the UK, unless you have a fortune to spend! Life is expensive, and the women are mostly tacky!

The issues with Turkey vs western europe, are not minor differences, they are major differences! People who come to west Europe, and adapt, is fine, just as I would adapt if I went to live in Dubai! However the majority will not adapt, from experience we know this!

EU already suffering from huge unemployment, it would be economical suicide to allow Turkey to join the EU within the next decade or two!

Even if they did join, as I doubt very much they will do, it will take another 5- 10 years before EASA regulations / standards would be adopted in Turkey, these things do not change overnight!

Regarding the religion issues, the truth is peoples personal views, do not favour Turkey on this issue either!
However from the previous negotiations I have read that it has been clear from the outset that there would be no freedom of movement of labour for Turkish citizens within the EU. If and when Turkey joins current restrictions would remain in place.

(From BBC website)
"However, it failed to ratify the customs union and its ports and airports remain closed to Cypriot traffic. The EU responded, in December 2006, by freezing accession talks in eight policy areas.

In December 2009 EU governments reaffirmed the freeze, saying it would "have a continuous effect on the overall progress in the negotiations".

"Turkey has not made progress towards normalisation of its relations with the Republic of Cyprus," they said, calling for progress "without further delay".

So far only 13 of the 33 areas of negotiation - called "chapters" - have been opened.

Turkey's EU negotiations have been overshadowed by concerns about freedom of speech and democracy in Turkey, treatment of religious minorities, women's and children's rights, civilian control of the military and the Cyprus tensions.

The European Commission has called on Turkey to strengthen democracy and human rights, underlining the need for deeper judicial reform."

There probably will be and should be a trade agreement in my opinion, but I doubt free movement of labour will come now for a long long time.

But believe me, you are not missing to much, I would rather go and see other continents, and embrace their cultures! You welcome to come and do winter ops at -30 deg Celsius if you wish :} In the North of Europe!

[skies]

8000 unemployed pilots in Europe.....

[Rft320]

@truckflyer

From a part of EU comission report about readmission plan of Turkey released 21st of June 2012

"
The Commission is expected to present a visa exemption action plan this autumn and the implementation of the action plan is likely to come a minimum two and a half years.
Diplomatic sources say actual visa-free travel for Turks visiting the EU could be possible within 4-6 years and it would require a majority of votes in the EU. ****
Turkey demands simultaneous implementation of visa-exemption and the readmission agreement. **
"
Also check this out

EUROPA - Press Releases - Statement by EU Commissioner Cecilia Malmström on the initialling of the EU-Turkey Readmission Agreement (http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/12/477&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en)

So it doesn't look that bad of course we can find antithesis when we start to google it on press :)

Yes you are right this things are not just "1 nights solved" issues and probably you know it much better than me you have 18 more life experience then me i am just at the middle of 20s but anyway I am not planning it for tomorrow as well... it is just something in my mind that which needs at least 2.5 -3 year to happen .. Everything can change in that time of period (crisis, EU, my mind, etc.. )especially the aviation .. I believe you don't deny that as well ..

But it is good to hear that you are not against to me at all , and you don't have walls .. So thank you

@skies

Yes this maybe the best and shortest way to explain the situation of EU now, believe me i can understand it , I wish that deeply from my heart that people get the jobs as soon as possible especially where the life is so expensive

It is such a ashame that the stuation what is happening in the countries which are known the best developed ones in the world..

Please don't get me wrong I don't have any eyes on others jobs the place which people are unemployed with huge numbers.. I am sorry if I wrote something accidently that can understandable in that way.. I didnt mentioned anything like that.. I don't want to look like kind of a person like that bad..

Take care

[truckflyer]

Visa - free does not mean that you have the right to work, that's two complete different things.

I can travel to the USA Visa-free, but I can not get work permit!

Business travel and tourism, maybe possible, but right to work, I can promise you not a chance for the next 20 years!

Even if Turkey did join EU, they would still need another step to become members of EASA, and their regulations, where they would approve your qualifications!

Believe me, the grass is not that green here, given the chance I would rather go and live in Asia, than live here!

[Rft320]

Turkey is the full member of JAA so I don't think that it will be hard to be member of EASA as well after joining to EU ... Turkey is follower of EASA rules as I heard before but can not join because it stands for only EU countries..

Visa free doesn't mean work permit I didn't say anywhere it does .. I post it because to show it how was this issues before as you wrote and now that you can see the things are changing !!

So how thousands of nonEU people are working in EU with work permit... I don't think it is impossible... Or you are saying that for it is impossible for aviation...

I can not understand that really there are hundreds of EU pilots have right to live and work in Turkey .. Many of them are here with their all families for long years .. So what is that much wrong that nonEU can go and get a job in EU if he or she can find it in better environment than now in EU ...I am not against to that at all you all welcome to come and work here .... a captain just pm to me 2 days ago and I am looking something for him here if I can find a contact here...

We are all pilots , we face with same difficulties in the air , I hope it will be fair on the ground as well...

[truckflyer]

The work permit regulations are quite complicated, you can get a work permit if you have a profession that is a skill that is required!

However with the high number of unemployed pilots in the EU, it is not a skill that is required, therefore they will never give you a work permit for this.

The same applies for USA and Australia! This is one of the reasons change of Visa regulations for the USA recently, which has made it much more difficult to work as an instructor in the USA if you come from abroad.

Another thing, why would the airlines bother to spend time and money and making work permits in the EU, when there are loads of pilots that have the right to live and work in EU, which does not require such administration or extra costs!

Not sure about pilots going to Turkey, but I would guess it would be very experienced pilots, that they might need there, that is not sufficient from own country, that would at least be the EU requirement!
However in the EU there is no lack of this at the moment, contrary there are thousands working outside EU, waiting for the chance to get back home again!

It is not impossible to work in the EU, but than you will have to choose a different career!

If you visit UK home office page/consulate, regarding how to get work permit, you will see how complicated it is to get a work permit! Also UK are not member of Schengen, so even if you managed to get permit for UK, that would not give you the right to work in any EU countries!

UK have millions unemployed, there is no good reason for opening for free market from Turkey, as there would only be a flow of work force, that would undercut todays already very strained job market!

This is not about prejudice, it is about preserving the economy, at a standard that gives people of the nation a chance to survive.

[Sad11]

and how much is that? i am 39,they will take me?

[Sad11]

It not an EASA member,this atlantic flight academy is not EASA because Turkey is not an EASA member