B777 Raw data ILS technique

[bobdazzle]

Any tips on how to fly a raw data ILS approach on the B ???

[GE90-115B]

Ummm lemme guess.. Keep the two needles centered ?? :E
(sorry man cudnt resist) :8

[Wizofoz]

Utilise the Map display- If the track line is on extended center-line, you're tracking the LOC. If you need to correct in azimuth, make sure the track-line crosses the extended center-line before the threshold..If it does, you're on an intercept track.

For G/S, the FPV helps. Fly so the "tail" of the FPV is on the horizon, and you are on a 3deg descent. Attitude between zero (maybe -.5) deg and 2 deg gives a good range of RODs.

[BOAC]

Wiz - that is not raw data.:ugh: GE90 has it right.

[gcc_]

Ge90 beat me to it :O

On a more serious note it actually is just as simple as that.
On the airbus to help you with crosswinds, additionally once the needles are centered, select track of the inbound course and fly that.
With the localizer centered, flying the inbound track, you will never go wrong.

[alf5071h]

The industry is often concerned about pilots reverting to old habit or previously trained practices to the detriment of flying modern technology-augmented aircraft. Yet when faced with a basic task – raw data ILS, there is an apparent lack of understanding of the basics.
So what is being taught as basic; do new pilots ever fly raw data ILS, or only use FDs etc in training aircraft?
If taught, then what is taught; the basic old-style raw data ILS or something new, anticipating (assuming) that operations will always be technology aided?
If the old style is taught, why should pilots forget the basics (understanding) or the means of recall and application? The basics are usually required in situations involving system failure.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Basic ILS technique.

even before starting the ILS, know the following:

initial rate of descent is approximately 5 times your groundspeed in knots...Apch groundspeed 140 knots...your initial descent rate 700 fpm...make your calculation in advance. 600 to 700 fpm for most jets to start.

consider the winds aloft , its effect on heading required to make good the localizer and how they will change as you get closer to the ground. within 300 feet of the ground the winds change (also at base of clouds if defined based exists)...they swing to closer to what the tower reports.

step one:select course, tune and identify the ILS freq, make sure beacon receivers are on HIGH

Intercept localizer and make a good guess as to the heading required to maintain. split your scan between the needles and the basic flight instruments...don't chase the needles, try for the heading making refinements as you go

as the glideslope needle comes alive, configure the aircraft for landing so that by the time you are ON GLIDESLOPE, you are fully configured for landing and stable in your 600-700fpm descent...TRIM and set the power.

now, monitor your heading and descent (airspeed too) as your marker beacon starts to sound, select norm or llow.


when the marker beacon sounds again, OM, start your time in case you lose the glideslope, you could ocontinue with the localizer only apch....you do not need to TIME to the missed apch point if ONLY considering the ILS as DH is your missed apch point.

monitor and fly the apch, making small refinements if a calm day...on a rough day you will have to be MORE on top of things...as you apch DH adjust your heading to compensate for reported winds on the ground...also your rate of descent may slightly be reduced to maintain glideslope. AT DH, have your copilot tell you if he can see the 11 required items to continue, if he has them in sight, look up, adjust and scan between outside and inside as you acclimate to looking out the window...have copilot call speed and rate of descent to touchdown.

land.

stop.

send me 20 US dollars for helping you out

repeat.

[despegue]

I am getting quite worried when an airline pilot flying or transitioning on a widebody needs to ask how to fly an ILS without the gimmicks...this is basic stuff and should be done almost on a daily basis...even a single engine raw data ils should be practiced in the sim, without the rudder compensator obviously...

[Wizofoz]

Sorry guys, but standard definition of Raw Data on EFIS aircraft in my experience= no flight director.

Been that way in the last four airlines I've flown for, and how it is taught at my current one- usually by me!!

I'd be very interested in how many outfits do as described above. Not saying one is better than the other (in fact I think having to fly without a MAP display would be great pracice), just not what I've experienced.

[High_Expect]

Help! I'm hoping this is some spotty teenager asking for help flying his FltSim. If not it turns out my irrational fear of flying as self loading freight isn't as irrational as I'd thought. And that's coming from someone who straps a Martin Baker to his arse everyday and does 550kts IAS. :cool:

[Denti]

@Wiz, yes, our definition is flying by raw data sources (basic ILS) and without flight director of course. However some like to keep the map display going on the ND and use the needles on the PFD as raw data source, FPV is seen as a cheap ersatz FD by some as our simulators cannot fail it. Personally i like to switch the ND into APProach mode and use the basic needles there and no FPV either.

My company doesn't have a fixed opinion, its up to the pilot flying how he wants to configure his displays, however it is recommended that at least one pilot has a map display with vertical situation display active during approach to help with overall situational awareness. In the raw data case that would usually be the PM.

Apart from that, it is basic instrument flying and one should keep those skills up for that bad hair day when the rest isn't available and some other problems might demand some brainpower as well, better not to be overwhelmed by raw data flying alone.

[5LY]

Genlemen. RTFQ!

Get out a picture of your PFD and follow me here. Everything you need is there. You need a pitch target and a heading target.

For a 30 Flap landing your pitch target is about 2 deg. Place the small square on the a/c symbol just under the 2 1/2 line on your ADI. Make adjustments as required but always come back there. For a 20 Flap approach your pitch target is 2 1/2 deg.

Now look at the bottom of your PFD. The half compas display there has a white track line. This is your track over the ground. On your PFD, set runway heading. (It's not going to slew there automatically unless one of you has your FD on and arms the Approach, but we're talking raw data here.) Now as you steer, your heading target is your heading bug. Steer to lay the white track line over the heading bug. Once you're squared up your corrections should be very small. Keep the track line within or very close to the heading bug.

Voila. Send only happy thoughts.

[misd-agin]

Get established on speed, on GS, on LOC. 2 degree nose attitude. Start with 54% N1 (horrors, no A/T's too?). :D

Make small changes. Scan, scan, scan. The quicker you notice the deviation trend the smaller the correction.

It's almost always trending away. The trick is to notice it ASAP and make the smallest correction necessary so that you don't start a trend in the opposite direction! The rate of deviation might be very small but eventually you'll notice one or two, make the corrections, and scan, scan, scan.

MAP display helps. If the track line is parallel to the runway the ILS displacement will increase as you get closer even though the physical displacement from the runway centerline is not increasing. Use the MAP display, along with your heading, to avoid making large heading changes, especially as you near the runway and the sensitivity increases which requires smaller and smaller corrections.

Raw data flying, along with s/e approaches, especially raw data s/e approaches, along with strong crosswind landings, is what culls the herd.

[framer]

It really is very very scary when you start hearing questions like this from widebody pilots.Basically learning on the job with 300 people behind them. It's not the individuals fault though, it's the airline management that puts them there.

[Busserday]

sevenstrokeroll said:
"AT DH, have your copilot tell you if he can see the 11 required items to continue,"

Please pardon my ignorance, what 11 items are you referring to, I actually have never heard of this before. Not trying to start a bun fight just curious.
BD

[have another coffee]

Any tips on how to fly a raw data ILS approach on the B ???

If ILS is too difficult maybe first work on the raw data NDB approaches...

Lately wondered what the meaning of the first P was in Pprune.
I'll take the train from now on.
:\

[Nil defects]

All of the above info is good for tracking the LOC.

Nobody has mentioned using the Flight Path Angle. Set -3 degrees on the FPA and life is easy. Fly the wing of the FPV into the horizontal bars and maintain them there. Of course you have to be on the glide slope in the first place.

I am assuming this raw data ILS is for a skills test in the sim and the PNF flight director is ON or the FPA won't be available.

Glass guys lose their scan over the years so maintaining the scan of G/S, LOC, Track and attitude is good practise for the raw data. A/T will be looking after the speed.

[have another coffee]

A/T will be looking after the speed.
:{

Please someone confirm these comments are not actually from professional pilots on flying raw data.
Just learned I better take the bus.

[sevenstrokeroll]

hi busserday

no problem...many years ago all we said was, you need to have the runway environment in sight to leave DH and land.

runway environment could mean many things and then someone wrote down what the runway environment really meant. it is in the US FAR's in a couple of places...I think part 91 is the place to start.

at DH if you see the flashing strobe lights of the approaching lighting system but see nothing else, you may continue descent to touchdown zone plus 100' until you see more of the items:

runway
runway threshold
runway markings
VASI
threshold lights
runway edge lights
red terminating bars
centerline lights
REIL lights
touchdown zone lights
touchdown zone markings

now in practical flying, you don't think, you just say: can I see to land?...OK land. trying to remember that stuff at DH is a handful...
indeed< I haven't looked it up and am doing it from memory...so please anyone with the regs in front of them can correct me.

and there are professional pilots to day who don't know they can go to touchdown zone elevation plus 100 feet just on the strobes/rabbit(as we called it).

I grew up flying in really heavy fog and the above trick (perfectly legal) is what seperates the landings from the go arounds.

[Busserday]

Thanks SSR,
although discussed at length, haven't seen this criteria before. Good gin.91.175


BD

[misd-agin]

Busser - 11 items? Unless the non flying pilot is a quick counter you'll go around before he gets to two.

Centerline lights, touchdown zone lights, runway end markings, runway lights, approach light termination bar, approach lights, REIL, PAPI, etc, etc.

[de facto]

and there are professional pilots to day who don't know they can go to touchdown zone elevation plus 100 feet just on the strobes/rabbit(as we called it).

I guess if those people dont read about their Aviation authority guidance/regulations about CAT1 they would always go around at minimum RVR 550 as they will NEVER see the runway by DA.
I think after a few missed approaches,they may start wondering why and start reading again:E

[Capn Bloggs]

initial rate of descent is approximately 5 times your groundspeed in knots...Apch groundspeed 140 knots...your initial descent rate 700 fpm...
I find halving your groundspeed (and adding zeros) easier. 140=7(00). If you have the luxury of an "live" GS, a 3° slope is still ½ your GS.

[haughtney1]

Raw data 777, which works equally as well on the 75/767.

ND exp ILS, put the white track line on top of the head of the CDI, and keep it there ( ensuring to match the CDI with the QDM)
Second thing, a 3 degree slope works perfectly with 1/2 the groundspeed, so I use the IVSI on the PFD as my primary guide to correct G/S deviations...it provides accurate and instant feedback..and works much better in the sim than using the pitch attitude...having an idea of the ballpark pitch attitude is good...but the IVSI referenced against the groundspeed results in an approach being really really accurate and stops deviations before they trend any further.
:}

[Capn Bloggs]

ensuring to match the CDI with the QDM
You mean QFU. ;)

[haughtney1]

No Bloggsy, I mean heading to the station, magnetic etc :ok:

QFU is magnetic bearing of the runway in use....I think :8
I need to get out more.....

[RAT 5]

Hi Haughtney 1: Ah, some common sense at last. You fly a raw data ILS in Raw Data ILS mode. Good stuff. It works on non-GPS a/c because the MAP might have shifted. That, plus the MAP, even in 5nm range gives a very small RWY symbol, so it is difficult to see exactly where the centre line is. Plus you have to cross reference that with the LOC on PFD; so you are scanning 2 screens for 1 dtaum. Meanwhile in Raw Data mode there is a bl£@dy great ILS deviation bar and an equally large TK line. 1 screen. Put one on top of the other and low and behold you are flying down the ILS centre line, assuming the ILS deviation bar is centred. If you see the TK line deviate Left or Right of the ILS symbol you simply return it to impose itself over the ILS beam bar. If the ILS deviation bar has moved you simply aim at it and bring it back to the centre. Child's play. 10 degrees of bank, max. easy to over control.
Fly the glideslope in constant configuration. Constant speed=constant attitude=constant V/S=constant Power=constant trim. All you have to do is guide (not fly) the a/c down the LOC. Fingers & thumbs. As the wind changes so will the vertical performance, but by very little, so smooth small changes to Power/ATT/Trim to keep correct V/S when on Glideslope. Ain't nothing magical; just get it set up early at Glideslope capture and keep it there. RELAX. Doddle.

[misd-agin]

MAP is not used for centerline guidance. That's what the LOC needle is for.

What the MAP is good for is checking to see if your track is parallel, divergent, or convergent. From that you can make small adjustments.

Pitch attitude and heading are primary attitude instruments. Ground speed, VSI, MAP, N1's, etc, etc, are for fine tuning. ILS needles are the judge/final decider.

[bubbers44]

SSR stated it like our airline stated it exactly. Strobes from 200 ft to 100 ft then you need actual runway identification. Runway end identifier lights or runway lights. We all know that of course. Before my airline career I used gas station signs and other stuff to verify my descent but thought it might be a good idea to pay attention to all rules once an airline pilot. Much more to lose.

[Big Pistons Forever]

MAP is not used for centerline guidance. That's what the LOC needle is for.

What the MAP is good for is checking to see if your track is parallel, divergent, or convergent. From that you can make small adjustments.

Pitch attitude and heading are primary attitude instruments. Ground speed, VSI, MAP, N1's, etc, etc, are for fine tuning. ILS needles are the judge/final decider.

Exactly !

I would say this post pretty much ends the discussion.

Seems like Sevenstrokeroll is trying to be the new 411A.........

[sevenstrokeroll]

big pistons forever

what the heck do you mean by that comment?

[bubbers44]

Somehow I can not see one thing that SSR has said that is wrong. I looked back several pages and find nothing but good information. He came up from the old school pilots and has proven himself many times. He started from scratch and worked his way up to the airlines. He could fly an Airbus tomorrow but probably wouldn't want to because he likes to hand fly. Listen to what he has to say and learn.

[oceancrosser]

I get BPVs point. We have had a few "true blue" yanks here before, p51guy and protectthehornet spring to mind.

[Big Pistons Forever]

big pistons forever

what the heck do you mean by that comment?

I meant it as a compliment. Capt Welliver ruffled more then a few feathers but I found his posts usually had some great nuggets of information and his pretty direct to the point posting style livened up some pretty pedantic threads over the years :E

[sevenstrokeroll]

big pistons...then I profoundly apologize.

hey bubbers...what do you think of the comments on P51 guy and protectthehornet? ;-)

It does seem to me that a return to basics wouldn't hurt anyone.

I will relate one more thing if I may.

20 years ago, while based in Boston, I struck up a conversation with a prof at MIT (massachusetts institute of technology)...he occupied the Boeing chair in aeronautics.

he said point blank that the day of the highly skilled pilot was over and that anyone with 300 hours could handle the new computerized planes...and this was the plan so that the new planes could be sold to the countries with more money than pilots!

I asked thime what they would do when the gadgets failed...he said they wouldn't .

Shades of HAL 9000!

go back to basics!!!!!

[bubbers44]

SSR, I believe what they said. I think we have come to the end of real pilots flying airplanes after this generation. It scares me but it is our future. We will have monitors controling our aircraft, not real pilots. So get ready for it. Kind of scary, isn't it?

[posrategearup]

To: bobdazzle
A key to total raw (last resort) data ILS approach is small corrections. With ref to localizer, try using the Heading Bug on the half-moon compass card at the bottom of the primary flight display. The 'bug' itself is about 10 degrees wide. Have the other pilot adjust it for the cross wind component, and then keep your heading within the confines of the 'bug' (+/- 5 degrees). If you can't make your corrections within that limit, you should go around and start over. Otherwise the tendency is to increase your bank with the intent of correcting faster...but resulting in an ever-increasing error. PIO. A raw data approach is very nearly an emergency!!

[Check Airman]

A raw data approach is very nearly an emergency

posrategearup,

I agree with just about everything you wrote, but please tell me that your last statement was made in jest?:=

[DOVES]

I state that I have never flown on the B777 and that as a raw data approach I mean the one with:
- Of course no A / P.
- No A / T
- No F / D
- No FPA
- No Track
Only Stick, Rudder, Throttles, HSI, ADI.

Almost 40 years ago we used to train on SE 210 performing simulated ILS Approaches to minima, with R1 instrument, and its omni bearing selected and locked in a position very different from the ILS inbound course. It was very challenging but effective to maintain manual piloting skills.
I agree almost totally sevenstrokeroll what he wrote in his post 7. I would just add a few things.

Quote:
even before starting the ILS, know the Following:

initial rate of descent is Approximately 5 times your groundspeed in knots ... 140 knots groundspeed Apch ... your initial 700 fpm descent rate ... make your calculation in advance. 600 to 700 fpm for most jets to start
End of Quote

Things to know before starting the approach:
Attitude and engines / engine (OEO) pre-fixing for each configuration / speed, to maintain in the various stages of the approach ...


Quote
Intercept localizer and make a good guess as to the heading required to maintain. Between the split scan your needles and the basic flight instruments ... do not chase the needles, try heading for the making refinements as you go
End of Quote

The drift is equal to the wind cross-component divided by the ground speed in NM / min.
So after capturing the LOC apply a first correction to the drift so calculated: if your GS is 140 kts = 2.3 nm / min and have a x-wind component of 10 knots, add about 4° to the right of your inbound course. Then you'll only make small corrections of no more than 5 degrees (the angle of bank should not exceed the amount of heading variation).

Quote
as the glideslope needle comes alive, configure the aircraft for landing That I know by the time you are ON glideslope, you are fully configured for landing and stable to your 600-TRIM 700fpm descent ... and the power in September.
End of Quote

We used to extend the landing gear when a dot and a half below the glide, landing flap when a dot below.
On glide the aircraft must be configured and at the prescribed speed, with attitude and thrust as precalculated.
Determine what is the exact attitude to maintain the glide slope and make small changes around that.
Do not chase LOC and GLIDE but anticipate their trends.
Maintaining a Sterile Cockpit.
Only standard call outs allowed.
”OUTER MARKER TIME ...” “CROSS CHECKED!”
APPROACHING MINIMA
MINIMA ... GO AROUND
Or: LAND
Fly Safe
DOVE