New formed group treasurer, mistake?

[Lagentium]

Afternoon all, I'm part of a newly formed flying group and have been asked to be in charge of the finance aspect of it, as we're trying to delegate the tasks between each other. My question is, am I lining myself up for a headache looking after the finances? Any advice would be great from peoples experiences.

Cheers, Jim:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

It's pretty painless by and large.

Pay for hangarage, insurance, etc. Check useage, receive payments, advise the syndicate how much money is left from time to time, and make sure that the monthlies and hourlies are covering costs, building up the right reserve, but not too high.

My recommendation is get online banking set up from the start, so that everybody can just pay as they go for their flying - then you just need to monitor it and don't have to get involved in invoicing / chasing / etc. Keep all the accounts on a spreadsheet that everybody can access through something like Google Docs - or just email out periodically.

Beats the heck out of being maintenance member! (I seem to be maintenance member and checkout pilot on one at the moment, and definitely find the latter more fun, if harder work.)

What have you got, anything good?

G

[robin]

Mostly it is straightforward stuff - check everyone is paying their monthly accounts and issue regular statements.

The only problem comes if and when someone starts getting into arrears or hits hard times just as you need cash for unexpected bills.

The role of Treasurer is not one I'd advise anyone to volunteer for - it's a thankless job and one that pretty much guarantees unpopularity. I've been there and still bear the scars

[3 Point]

If you are in a group with people who you can trust and who are not ikely to default on their payments than is't as Genghis said - pretty painless administration but, if you are not ocnfident abot the other group members then have nothing to do with it!

Happy landings

3 Point

[pulse1]

I think it really depends on whether your group operates a wet or dry hourly rate. The group for which I am the administrator operates a dry rate and the monthly flying bills are quite small. Hangarage and insurance are covered by monthly STO's. Keeping it under control only requires about 2 - 3 hours of my time a month

I don't think I would be so happy if I was having to cover incoming and outgoing fuel bills as well.

[Maoraigh1]

operates a dry rate and the monthly flying bills are quite small. Hangarage and insurance are covered by monthly STO's. Keeping it under control only requires about 2 - 3 hours of my time a month
A wet tach rate is even easier - everyone records tach, records fuel, and pays {(Tach* rate)-Fuel}. A simple Works spreadsheet will do it all - they pay in online, and email you the spreadsheet.
You pay hangarage + insurance by standing order, and check that accumulating cash covers agreed "profit" per hour and month to cover (engine fund + annual + projected repair costs)

[robin]

A wet tach rate is even easier - everyone records tach, records fuel, and pays {(Tach* rate)-Fuel}

But if you do that I'd suggest you should put a ceiling on the fuel uplift. If they go somewhere expensive for fuelling, the group will subsidise this. We have a rule that lays down the max price per litre based on the home base price.

[Big Pistons Forever]

When I was in a group of 4 we wanted to keep everything as simple as possible and share the work

For fuel the deal was that you had to fill the aircraft to the tabs after your flight. That way it was always ready to go and the group treasurers did not have to worry about fuel.

The monthly rate covered all fixed costs ( all costs that would occur whether or not the aircraft was flown like insurance and tie down plus a little extra for the inevitable miscellaneous stuff that comes up). All maintenance was split four ways and billed as it occurred. There was no hourly rate

For scheduling, each partner "owned" the aircraft for one week every month. If you wanted to fly you had to get the permission of the owner and he had veto rights. However the owner was responsible for looking after the aircraft, checking on it if there was a wind storm etc etc and was also responsible for its cleanliness.

Peer pressure kept everyone honest and in general it worked well.

[chrisN]

Make sure you have an agreement that all have signed and that covers all the possibilities, including when a nice cooperative member suddenly changes characteristics.

If you don’t have that, I would not want to be group treasurer.

Email me if you want some sample agreement terms covering things you might not have thought of. (My samples are for gliding, but many of the issues are common to us all.)

Chris N

[robin]

...one other thing and I would guess it is in ChrisN's agreement

Make sure you have a rule concerning disputes. Ours says that in the extreme case of disagreement we use the CFI of the local club (someone we all trust) to hear the evidence and act as arbiter binding on all parties.

Having heard about other groups problems, mainly around money and especially about when selling a share or 'what has happened to the engine fund...', it is something we hope never to use, but it there just in case

[Genghis the Engineer]

Most of the problems I've ever come across in syndicates have been over "misfit" members - people who either want out, or other members want out.

The first usually occurs where somebody wants out, and decide that it's the job of the rest of the syndicate to buy-back or help them sell their share.

This is just one case to emphasise the importance of having clear rules that everybody is signed up to.

G

[stickandrudderman]

It's difficult to do, but see if you can get everyone to pay an inflated monthly sub to cover unforeseen expenses, and then return any surplus at the end of the year or put it into a non-returnable upgrade fund. IF you can get your members to agree to this then they have proved that they have the stomach for the expense of owning an aircraft from the outset and might be less inclined to cause disharmony later.
A long shot though.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

It's difficult to do, but see if you can get everyone to pay an inflated monthly sub to cover unforeseen expenses, and then return any surplus at the end of the year or put it into a non-returnable upgrade fund. IF you can get your members to agree to this then they have proved that they have the stomach for the expense of owning an aircraft from the outset and might be less inclined to cause disharmony later.
A long shot though.....

The most recent syndicate I helped form we agreed to pay a monthly then fuel, with no dry/wet rate as such. This is working so far, and de-stresses things for everybody: albeit on a very cheap to run aeroplane where this is feasible.

However, I think personally that what I'd do if I was setting up a higher value syndicate now, is propose that the monthly fees cover the first 12 hours per year which isn't charged for separately, and isn't refundable. It encourages regular use of the aeroplane as people have paid for it anyhow.

It makes sense to me, but I should qualify this by saying I've not tried!

G

[stickandrudderman]

However, I think personally that what I'd do if I was setting up a higher value syndicate now, is propose that the monthly fees cover the first 12 hours per year which isn't charged for separately, and isn't refundable. It encourages regular use of the aeroplane as people have paid for it anyhow.

Also a very good idea.

[140KIAS]

A wet tach rate is even easier - everyone records tach, records fuel, and pays {(Tach* rate)-Fuel}
But if you do that I'd suggest you should put a ceiling on the fuel uplift. If they go somewhere expensive for fuelling, the group will subsidise this. We have a rule that lays down the max price per litre based on the home base price. I the groups Ive been involved in fuel uplifted away from home is paid for by the individual and reimbursed at the home rate. Avoids any problems on that front.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I the groups Ive been involved in fuel uplifted away from home is paid for by the individual and reimbursed at the home rate. Avoids any problems on that front

So long as the rules are clear and consistent, I've seldom seen an issue here. Either fuel at local rate, or cash paid - so long as everybody's agreed and always doing the same.

G

[peterh337]

How about having a rule that duty drawback is done only by the club secy, and the drawback goes into the group fund?

[foxmoth]

:\At the end of the day, somebody has to be treasurer, if not you, then who?
I totally agree with Genghis' suggestion if the aircraft is suitable - in fact what we did was charge a monthly that covered ALL the standing charges, including a large donation towards annual maintenance (in most years over the top) then a low dry charge that did things like 50hr checks/engine fund, then everyone filled up the forward tank (ac had fwd and aft tanks, had to TO and land on fwd) and paid their own fuel, meant there were no problems if you fuelled anywhere cheaper or more expensive, that was YOUR benefit/loss, and also encouraged people to fly economically!if you got back too late to refuel then you emailed and the next person in would fuel up before flying and it was added to your bill. The problem is off course if you do not have a tank system that you can reliably fill part way and you cannot always fly with full tanks (though even this an be overcome on most with a dipstick).
High monthly and low hourly rate encourages use of the aircraft, but you do need to get the numbers right!:cool:

[Maoraigh1]

As treasurer, you're just checking the money. Some of the disputes mentioned just have to be fought out by the members, assuming they are all equal shareholders. (I've been in the same group (6 members) since January 1990)