I might soon be in the position where I will have to choose between my first command, on an Emb145, or leave and go abroad to be an FO on an A320. I'm not looking to make my choice based entirely on the anonymous feedback from PPRuNe, but nonetheless I'm still interested to hear people's thoughts and musings on the scenario.

I know a lot of people say never turn down a command, but I'm inclined to believe that moving onto a bigger type will open a lot more doors in the future.

So, without getting too much into the nitty gritty of it, (especially family/moving/expat etc) career-wise, what would you do?

Having been in a 145 many years myself, I have worked with guys like yourself.
80%would have gone for a FO big jet and escape the long life marriage to barbie!
Go for the 320 pal!

Get out while you can.

See you in Doha.

;)

Have to agree go for the airbus, I know guys who are 4-5 years ahead of you as skippers on the 145 who crave an airbus rating, not sure I would move to Doha for it though, if it was in the uk for me personally it would be a no brainer but the ME mmmmm not sure !!!
All the best with your decision !!!

Tough call.

For me, I'm the other way around. In the middle east but getting fed up of it, if someone offered me DEC command on an Embraer I'd bite their arm off....maybe that says a lot about the place? :ugh:

If your driven by the desire to drive a bigger jet then go for it, I've driven the bigger stuff and it's just another aeroplane at the end of the day, goes further, carries more people, takes you away from your home/family for longer....the grass is no greener.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the replies guys, but don't put words into my mouth - I never mentioned the Middle East or Doha! There are other places where you can fly A320s.

As I thought, there's a lot to be said for a command in the UK, decent'ish money, good lifestyle but no opportunities to move to something bigger within the UK even with jet command time.

flyforfood1, yes tough call it is. But its not just about flying bigger and shinier jets. I've been around long enough to know that the grass isn't always greener (it hardly ever is). But I do want to maximise my earnings and make myself as employable as possible and an A320 type rating does both much better than a 145 command.

there is no universal answer to your question. Personal preferences vary a lot. For me being at home with a reasonable income is the most important.

Regarding the types I would go for the command. Only if the other option were a 777 or similar would I give it a second thought. Nowadays the market is full of cheap cadets for the320/737. Saldy experienced F/os lost their value.

Getting command on the other hand is the best part of a flying career.

But I do want to maximise my earnings and make myself as employable as possible and an A320 type rating does both much better than a 145 command.

Then there's your answer :)

Sit down and take stock of what you want.... Whatever said and done command is... COMMAND!

You will be able to get command in a foreign airline but it's usually a bit more difficult... Not because you aren't technically sound or aren't a good pilot.. Simply because there might be a issue of "local pilots"

Its very difficult to predict an airlines future. You can get a 320/737 job after a few years in command... Again, you've to sit down and take stock of what you want to do...


Ending on a thought, if something were to happen to your airline... Will it be easy for you to get another job as a 320 FO or Emb145 captain?

another question is that how manyyears have you been in the business and how old are you? If you think you still have time as you are young both ways can be good - but if you are let say 45 this may be one of your last chances to move to the left seat.

well said - command is command.

Take the command! P1 time will be better off in the long run, airlines can get F/Os willing to work for :mad: All from CTC and other providers to fly the airbus.

Embraer seems to be a good rating to have, if it is dollars you are after then after 500hrs you should be sitting pretty with carriers in the middle east.

Good Luck and I wish you well!

I moved from A320 command to EMB135BJ and have no regrets.

Both nice aeroplanes to fly but by far the most important thing is to be working in a good atmosphere with people you like and respect.

If the Embraer job gives you those two things then go for the left seat and enjoy it.:)

An Airbus TR is probably the most useful one to have at the moment.
Command time always looks good on the CV and the soul!
Take a view on what the market will look like in a year or so.
If you think there will be a desirable escape route from small to big jet or from regional operator to big operator (which is tricky at the moment) then the P1 time is probably better.
If you think otherwise, or you are older than average, take the quickest route onto the big jet. I have not regretted that decision myself.
Take the long view. Flying is flying is flying. Income is king in the end, especially once you have a family. Closely followed by lifestyle and job security.
Best of luck.

Very interesting replies! It does seem a shame to be so close to a command only to make a move that will almost certainly push it back at lest a decade!

Embraer seems to be a good rating to have,
I have to disagree with you as almost none of the Captains I fly with are able to make a direct entry move anywhere, let alone onto an A320 which is where most of the UK jobs are. Also a 10,000hr Emb145 Captain couldn't join Virgin as an FO even if they wanted to.

another question is that how many years have you been in the business and how old are you?
About 7 years, and early-mid 30s!

Ending on a thought, if something were to happen to your airline... Will it be easy for you to get another job as a 320 FO or Emb145 captain?
Well, perceived job security where I am is currently not exactly great, hence the thoughts about jumping ship before it sinks. As for which would be most employable; Emb145 Captain or A320 FO? Well there are far more A320s than Emb145s operated in the UK, and all the jobs I've seen require a type rating and 500hrs on type. It doesn't matter how many 21 ton command hours you have if you are not type rated.

That's the question isn't it? In 2 years time, would I be in a more employable position for a decent UK job with more Emb145 hours albeit about a thousand in command or 1000hrs A320 as FO?

Flown both Lhs/Rhs. A320 FO - 100%

If you are thinking about 2 years down the line in UK, I would take the Command.

Why?

If it goes tits up at your current place, you're still a Captain.

And if it gets better in UK aviation, you're still a Captain.......

the emb and the airbus are both a piece of shirt...ha.

it boils down to this...and I'll use my own self as an example...

I'd rather be an EMB captain in the USA than a 747 captain in the aviation third world.

so in your case, I'd stay in what is still a noble country, the UK as a captain...unless that AB slot is in the USA.

If it goes tits up at your current place, you're still a Captain.

Surely you mean, if it goes tits up, I'm now unemployed and with a useless type rating!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narrow Runway
If it goes tits up at your current place, you're still a Captain.
Surely you mean, if it goes tits up, I'm now unemployed and with a useless type rating!


I think you just answered your question! :ok:

How long to command on the 320?

How long to command on the 320?
great username!

Circa 10 years had been mentioned, but current employer told me 2 years when I joined and that was 7 years ago so I'll take any prediction with a pinch of salt. 7 months is a long time in aviation nowadays.

No perfect answer here but, unless you have overwhelming personal circumstances, take the A320 rating every time. As one who has been on the wrong side of this truism, my observation of the aviation industry is that without a Boeing or an Airbus on your licence, you are not really considered to have 'made it' as a fully-fledged commercial pilot. No offence intended, but these are the facts as I see them.

You need to ask yourself what your long term goals are.
Do you want, eventually, to fly 777s, 330s or 380s? (LHS of course)
Or will you be satisfied flying regional operations or similar, for your career?

I think there is a danger of taking the command on an Embraer and finding there are limited DEC opportunities. That maybe OK for you. You'd still have the option of taking an FO position in a larger company in the future. It depends also, how old you are.

Command is great. But, rightly or wrongly, command on an Airbus or Boeing is more valuable, from a potential DEC point of view, than an Embraer. Of course wide body LHS gives you the most options of all. Maybe getting on a wide body fleet is a better option.

Many variables. Either option is viable.
Whatever you decide, don't look back and regret.

No one has a crystal ball so we can't know for sure what state the uk or europe will be in when you get back from HK! But where will you go with the elusive A320 time, Easyjet won't take you, you're not ctc! So who else, monarch? Apply now if that's what you want! BA? Get your command and apply in a year, what I'm saying is there is no correct answer. Lots of guys think type is the holy grail. The big question is what will you come back to if the UK is where you want to be! If it is then maybe take your command! Good luck!

I would also think about these aspects:

If You take the Airbus will You get bonded?

Also if You take the command at your present company how much can you save let's say in one or two years? Maybe You can save enough to sponsor yourself a type-rating in the near future if You want to change or if your company goes bust. Even with command rating and time under your belt You can sit back to the right seat if there's no more option.

If You can start builiding command hours and earn more that's something that shouldn't be overlooked.


Of course this whole story is about job security and future planning...difficult if not impossible thing today.

Thing is, at regional/granite the future is fairly uncertain at the moment. The command may never come.

At Qatar, the future is considerably more certain.

You will be bonded either way so that's not really an issue.

Think I know where he's going and there is no bond! Forget the bond! What ultimately do you want?

Get on the right bit of kit, with the right company....then look for your command.

I didn't and regret it now.

Get typed and experience on the Airbus.

You need to ask yourself what your long term goals are.
To be quite blunt, its money. I want to buy a house and pay off the mortgage asap while fuel is 'only' $100 a barrel and people can afford to fly and I have a job!


But where will you go with the elusive A320 time,
Well I can't join easyJet at the moment anyway. With 500hrs on an A320 surely there is more chance of being able to join Monarch, Thomas Cook, BA, Virgin, Thomson and all the contract jobs going in Europe. None of these are an option as an Emb145 Captain, except possibly BA, but sometimes even they only want type rated bods.


If You take the Airbus will You get bonded?
No bond.


if You take the command at your present company how much can you save let's say in one or two years? Maybe You can save enough to sponsor yourself a type-rating in the near future if You want to change or if your company goes bust.
Not as much as I'd be able to save as FO on the A320. Plus if I were to self sponsor then I'd still have trouble getting jobs because airlines generally require 500hrs on type.


The command may never come.
Indeed! Or worse! I'm already bored waiting. Not much route variety where I am.


All great points though, keep them coming!

It's funny I read this.... Right now I'm thinking of EK co-pilot job versus staying on command on the 737 I have right now....

EK is a lot better pay and perks... And well it's EK....

Similar thoughts here, pretty much just waiting for the phone call for command course in FR while I wait for a course in EK, who ever calls first will get me, bu if it's the EK route how do I get back if after a fe years I hav had enough?

It's an hourly thought

Reading all replies, and most importantly your thoughts Paragon, the A320 route ticks more boxes and has more plusses than negatives. The next few years are going to be hard for everyone in the industry. Being a captain at a small operator with an "uncertain" future is perhaps the riskier option right now. With an A320 rating there will be regular opportunities to get back to the UK in the future. Turning down a command opportunity is hard, I did it last year, at the same stage of career as you, to join the bottom of the list at BA. I get the occasional twinge of regret but as someone else pointed out, whatever you decide looking back is pointless, the future is far more interesting.

Good luck!

One more thing to consider regarding jumping ship on the A320 RHS, how long or would there be any possibility or in any form of writing that an upgrade to the LHS can be secured? :O

Cheers and goodluck!

Take the A320 rating and wait for a command there. If it's Doha, then their expansion means you won't have to wait more than a few years (IMHO). Staying on the 145 is backing yourself into a cul-de-sac in aviation terms. As you can see yourself, there is no natural progression from the LHS of a 145 these days.

I would also resist the urge to move onto heavy metal while out in the sand pit. It does wonders for you're ego, but it means you end up with a useless type if your plan is to come back to europe. Most 777 or 330 operators in europe are large legacy carriers with a very long seniority list.

Have a game plan if you're heading to the sand pit. Do your time, save your money, kiss derriere and get a 320 command. 5 years tops and then head home. Should see you about right.

If you get the E145 command position, you will likely move to the A320 FO slot anyway if you wish to move to another carrier that operates them. Why not just go to the Airbus now and open up your career prospects sooner? Why wait when you could be earning more "valued" experience sooner than later?

320 hands down.
I have been working on contract the last 7 years and my impression is that command time on RJ's is not considered "real" command time when applying for DEC jobs, unless it's on an RJ.
Get the right type rating now and make Yourself more employable in the future.

Good luck

Paragon

This is a no brainer

Ask yourself this. What do you want to do as a career for the rest of your life. If its be a Commercial Pilot, then ask yourself this. When, not if, but when you lose your job because your company is no longer around, what and where are you going to go with a 145 rating. If you had a 320 rating, how would it be then ?

You need to move onto the 320. Guys came from your place to the middle east 2 years ago onto the 320 and are now returning to the UK for Virgin onto their 340s.

You can sit there with your command time building, but it means Jack shit when your out of a job. No one cares and you wont get another job no matter how many hours you have got on a 145 or how many hours you have got as command. No one cares. All that matters is how many hours on what aircraft and a 320 is 100 times better rating to have than a 145. Search for jobs and you will see.

PS, its not as bad as you think here

...will get me, bu if it's the EK route how do I get back if after a fe years I hav had enough?
You are right.
The seniority trap has really got you.
Once you are upgraded to Captain in a company like EK, it's very hard to get back home to a comparable job. Some try it. Some accept the lesser job, having filled their buckets. Some regret it. Some even return to EK again.

If you make the big step to EK, or similar, you have to think in terms of, no going back.
That's the downside risk.

(remember, there are no guarantees on upgrade time in EK. 3250 youngish pilots today. 3% attrition rate. Airline needs to nearly double in size for a new joiner to get a quick command)

At the end of the day, whatever is written on an annoymous bulletin board is just so much hot air.

On saying that, given that your current employer (na names, no pack drill), have been less than forthcoming on their plans, add to that the entire fleet has allegedly been transferred into an Isle of Man holding company and they seem hell bent on resurecting the British Midland brand and having dual HQs I would be running for the door. In fact....

The 145 is a dying type and if the opportunity to fly an A320 exists, I see it as a no brainer.

Just my tuppenceworth.

Or..........

Take the command, get an instant £20K pay rise, stay living where you are or at least in the UK, in the process keep your marriage and sanity intact.

Then in 12/24 or however long it lasts see where the industry is and start applying for DEC in the UK on a medium jet (can think of at least 2 places EMB145 Captains have gone to recently).

DOHA and several others will still be there if that doesn't work.

Would your ultimate plan be to get back to the UK? How many actual A320 jobs are there for A320 F/O's in the UK? Don't they just want 200 hr CTC D.B.I.'s?

Whilst E145 command time may be rubbished it has helped several people I know go direct left seat 737 and A320 and in my experience jet command time get's you an interview on a bigger better type as an F/O when others you fly with don't even get a call. It also may well put you up for command at a bigger airline much more quickly than others without command experience.

Finally and just to be totally certifiable, don't forget Reg are getting big embraers for the Scotland-LHR route, so that would be enjoyable from a left seat wouldn't it?

Just for a balanced view to counter all the electronic plane lovers.

Don't quote me on any of this if it all implodes within 6 months!:{

Don't know about Europe but here in USA, Captain (PIC) time is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL in getting hired onto bigger/better gigs.

Turning down an E145 CA slot for more SIC time (even in an Airbus) would be considered a lateral, or even downward, move here.

I would say stick with the CA upgrade, but then again I'm not sure if Europe has the same adherence to PIC time when looking to move on.

With respect, this thread is anything but hot air and if the OP is not at least swayed one way or the other by the arguments, I'd be surprised.
Whatever opportunity you have to progress to bigger/better airplanes/airlines take them now, you could easily start another thread about missed opportunities and that would be really long. As someone said above, domestic circumstances not withstanding, take the flipping Airbus rating!

aa73,

Respectfully, you yanks clearly don't understand European aviation. In the States, you no longer have ab initio flight training where it is possible to get hired into an A320 at 400 flight hours. Looks like your new laws will require 1500 hours and an ATP to get hired onto a Beech 1900D or a CRJ. Different context here in Europe.

So, if you are an E145 driver and you aspire to flying for an Airbus operator, you will go to the right-hand seat whether you have 10,000 hours as a Captain on the E145 or you are hired from the right-hand seat. Super unlikely that you will go from left seat to left seat. So, why not get the type rating and move directly into the Airbus and start gaining "valued" experience in a very popular type sooner than later? That is the point. This is not the United States - ab initio pilots with 500 total hours and a type rating are competing for the available A320/19/21 and 737NG slots out there. Plus, having an Airbus type and as much flight time on type (better to build that time sooner than later) could be viewed as decent career insurance in case more European airlines tank financially. Although less appealing, you can find Airbus jobs in the Middle East, Asia and even wild Africa if your Euro carrier collapses. An E145 type is not as popular or likely to pay as well unless you want to fly a Legacy bizjet abroad. If you want to fly an E145 for your career - good for you - upgrade and enjoy your career (and hope your airline does not fail or downsize).

Why not get the more valuable and marketable type on the A320 sooner? My preference might differ from others and that is fine. We may all have different opinions and we will all be lucky to have jobs in a few years if the economy continues to decline. :eek::mad:

So, if you are an E145 driver and you aspire to flying for an Airbus operator, you will go to the right-hand seat whether you have 10,000 hours as a Captain on the E145 or you are hired from the right-hand seat.

Not quite correct for all operators. Think a few went DEC in DOHA and one even went to Easy DEC A320. A few went DEC 737 at Jet 2 also.

However the point people are making about the most useful rating for long term employment being the A320 is correct. If you can hack living in a totally different culture and are willing to risk finding it extremely difficult to get back to the UK then the Qatar or Dragonair job whichever it is is best.

Thanks Iver,

I suspected it was a tad different over there. Our hope here is that the new Mins will have the effect of maybe raising pilot pay, especially at the regional level (since they will be attracting higher time folks who have been in the industry longer.)

Unfortunately, P2F cadetships have destroyed the civil aviation career structure in Europe. The same pattern is now being replicated in Asia.
This is NOT a pop a those who choose to undertake p2f as if you can finance it, over a 10 year view, it makes good financial sense for the cadet, assuming all goes well and the training is of good quality. I would have done the same myself.
So now we have loads of trapped TP/Regional pilots who can't get career progression in their own country, which is patently unfair.
The only hope of change comes from the airframe insurers who are nervous about the situation and hopefully will lead to more structured cadetship courses which includes a couple of years in a TP operator.
This, of course, does not help anyone still trying to claw their way out of the TP scene. There can even be an argument made for leaving a TP and paying AGAIN to go thru a CTC type scheme so you can get into ESY or similar, if you do the sums over 10 years, you do work out ahead!

Finally and just to be totally certifiable, don't forget Reg are getting big embraers for the Scotland-LHR route, so that would be enjoyable from a left seat wouldn't it?Do you mean that bmi Regional are getting Embraer 175/190s?

''seniority is king, unions are strong, corps spirit is alive, good rostering rules..'' well in that case you can put EK in the same bag as QR, in world 3 :mad: ... the middle east count for itself :E

I agree with ''my NOW, not my MIGHT BE in 5 years''

Comand experience is, well, command experience, a bigger type is just another type rating.

Don't forget the Legacy is a very popular and capable aircraft that is selling well !

Take the command whilst it is offered.

Once you have some command time of EFIS jets, you are employable for both left and right seats down the track. If things go pear shaped - all of a sudden you have double the jobs available as opposed to just the right side of the plane. Demonstrated ability in addition to the requirements for applying for other jobs should you need to move on - along with the responsibility and job satisfaction of actually doing the job in command.

You can have my job if you like - been sitting as an FO for 13 years with my airline - patiently waiting for the first opportunity for a command, whilst continually trying to improve myself. Looks like it might be another 10-20 years or even possibly out of a job soon depending on which way the company turns.

So - swap? You have my 747-400 right seat......I'll do the "Bambi Jet" left seat......even throw a box of chocolates in for you?

In any case - whatever you do - make the best decision you can at the time and do not look back. Keep going - no regrets and make what you are doing enjoyable in the good times and the bad.

Good luck

Have you actually been offered the command?

Have you been offered the A320?

I suspect the former hasn't happened yet. Could be a case of passing up opportunities based on a promise. How much do you trust your current employer to deliver?

Never ever turn down a command. You might wait 20 years for the chance come round again.

I would love to have your dilemma. 17 years in the right hand seat, two redundancies and several recessions mean I have never had the opportunity to even have a go and I'm now looking at the prospect of retirement as an FO due to advanced age, economic mayhem buggering the whole business up and rapid onset of dribbling and failing eyesight.

Take it, tick the box, scratch the itch. You can always go and fly an Airbus video game later on if you don't like the pressure of signing the tech log.

Lucky person.

Do you mean that bmi Regional are getting Embraer 175/190s?

Thought that outrageous rumour slipped under the radar a bit too easily! I heard 170's for the EDI/ABZ-LHR slots that BA has to sell. :ok:

Bigger embraers for regional? I wouldn't hold your breath. Maybe a secondment from cityflyer.

I upgraded on the legacy recently and although I really like my job, I can't help thinking that if I had to look for another, the 145 rating would open very few doors. The worldwide corporate ops may help though.

For me in your place, I would bite the bullit and go for the airbus if you can make it work with your personal life.

Good luck

D and f

Bigger embraers for regional? I wouldn't hold your breath.

Really? Oh no! I genuinely believed we were getting a fleet of brand new big E-Jets but now I feel all disappointed. Thanks for letting us all know, this changes everything. :{