Historical RAF Uniform Question

[PeregrineW]

Starter for ten - Could anyone please tell me when Wedgwood Blue shirts were first introduced? Was it at the same time as the Hairy Marys went out (72/73)? And was the shirt that preceded it (for airming, not zobbits) the blue/grey with separate collar?

Bonus question - when did Staybrite cap badges first appear? My guess is around 1960. Did the rest of the bling change over from brass at the same time (thinking of medics' collar caduceus in particular)?

Thanking you!

[Pontius Navigator]

In the late '60s a pale blue (with tones of green) shirt was introduced and a short sleeve version could be bought at own expense.

The current dark blue shirt came in a little later than 72 IIRC, nearer 74.

[PeregrineW]

I seem to remember the dark blue shirt (v. similar to the fish head shirt) coming in a bit later than that, around 78 perhaps? I don't remember seeing them around in the very early stages of my "career" (joined Jan 76)

[It's Not Working]

Depending on neck size some of my entry got collar attached, others got detached; this was June 71. All in the entry 6 weeks earlier were issued collar detached.

[PeregrineW]

Were these collar detached shirts similar in colour to the Wedgwood ones?

[Fareastdriver]

Hard to desribe the colour. They were not Wedgewood; the material seemed to have blue and white threads crossing each other to give a light blue. The collars that were bought were of a lighter colour but they would hold their shape better than issue ones.

[PeregrineW]

Ah, that's what I wanted to know, thanks! I'm told that the correct term for that sort of cloth is "end on end weave". It would seem that they were very similar to officers' pattern shirts from the 1940s in that case...

Any idea when the ones you describe first came in to use?

[Ripline]

There are several groups that specialise in the minutea of WW2 and post-war RAF uniforms and they may be in a better position to say what is "correct" for any particular period, given the original wearers of such are getting fewer as time passes. Try

ww2rafgroup.org (http://www.ww2rafgroup.org/) and

ww2rafgroup.org.downloadsguidance1.html (http://www.ww2rafgroup.org/downloadsguidance1.html)

in particular for an overview. Having met a few members at various events I found them to be approachable and interested in such questions.

Ripline

[Shack37]

Starter for ten - Could anyone please tell me when Wedgwood Blue shirts were first introduced? Was it at the same time as the Hairy Marys went out (72/73)? And was the shirt that preceded it (for airming, not zobbits) the blue/grey with separate collar?


Demobbed in May71. Never heard of Wedgewood Blue shirts so they definitely appeared after that date. Only ever had separate collar arrangement ie three shirts and six collars. (and one set of collar studs) airming for the use off.

[ricardian]

I was demobbed in April 1973. Still using standard shirt with separate collar and those dreadful collar studs. About 2 years before demob we were allowed to buy our own collar-attached shirt but it had to be of a particular colour & pattern.
I handed in my greatcoat when I was demobbed - it was issued to me in Boy's service in 1960 when I was 6ft 3ins and 11 stone; when I was demobbed I was the same height but had added a further 5 stones!

[Vortex_Generator]

I went through Swinderby early 75 and ISTR having one shirt of the 'blue and white threads' variety, but with attached collar, which was the 'No1 shirt' and several 'No 2 shirts' in plain wedgewood blue. I was also issued a 'Hairy Mary' and 'wooly pully' though the HM was replaced with a 'Thunderbird Suit' soon after arrival at my first proper unit.

Of course this was some time ago so the memory is not what it was!

[Pontius Navigator]

The real 'sharp' operators had that end-on weave collar in PLASTIC. The appeared to be heavily starched but were allegedly more comfortable and could be cleaned with a damp cloth.

[taxydual]

Vortex, you are of my era (Swinderby '75). I concur with your memory. 1 x Blue/Gray for Best, 4 x Wedgewood for day to day.

Also the very dark blue workshirts (issued as a one-off) + 2 x Blue/Gray coveralls issued as 'workwear' for manky jobs. About '78ish?

As an aside, at Swinderby, I was duty 'gash shag' one day and detailed to 'hump and dump' in Clothing Stores. I was told to dispose of a large black poly sack. Having a peek inside, I discovered, all screwed up, 23 almost brand new Wedgewood blue shirts all my size. I disposed of them into my kitbag.

I never ran short of a clean shirt again.

[diginagain]

If it helps, our ATC Sqn cadets were getting issued serge BD, end-on-end weave shirts with collars, detached in 74, switching to SD trousers, dark-blue shirts & JHW in 77.

[dkh51250]

Joined in 1966, collar detached shirts were issue of the day. As an ex spacey I had acquired some Van Heusen collars, much more comfortable than those issued, and never ever to be entrusted to the service laundry system. During the early 60s as a cadet I had been issued with dark grey collar detached shirts that resembled sail cloth.

[stevef]

It was collar-detached for me when I joined in Jan 71. I was thrown off a pre-AOC's inspection parade in 1972 for wearing a brand-new collar with a well-worn shirt that was probably two shades lighter. :O
Seem to remember collar-attached shirts being available shortly afterwards. Oh, and having a pull-on, half-buttoned shirt from somewhere. The tail was nearly as long as a WRAF skirt!
I always liked the Hairy Mary No2 - at least it looked like a proper traditional uniform, as did the belted No1.
The raincoats were dreadful shapeless garments, as were the 'new' grey Velcro'd overalls (with blue pocket flaps, epaulettes and collars) that defied conforming to conventional body contours after a couple of washes.

[bspatz]

We went through a very confusing anarchic period in about 72/73 when a variety of shirts were being purchased and worn, particularly by officers. These ranged from a very pale duck egg blue through a vivid near turquoise greeny blue to the darker wedgewood style, often accompanied by the very fashionable knitted black tie. As a result few people looked alike in uniform and it was not until towards the end of the 70s when the wedgewood shirt appeared that 'uniformity' was once again established

[longer ron]

Ahhhh yes who could forget the green dot on ones throat from the front collar stud LOL :)
The best working 'uniform' of course was the old No1 jacket converted to a No2 jacket...very comfy :)

[Pontius Navigator]

Oh, and having a pull-on, half-buttoned shirt from somewhere. The tail was nearly as long as a WRAF skirt!.

Commando .

[stevef]

Commando! Blimey - can't think how I ended up with that. I was probably the most un-warlike airman on the station. :)

[Tankertrashnav]

Nothing to add to the shirt query but no-one seems to have commented on the introduction of staybrite/anodised badges and buttons. Later than 1960, certainly. I went to the far east in March 1967 and was certainly wearing brass buttons up to that point, as were my airmen. On return in January 1969 it was all staybrites and I remember getting a set of "high dome" staybrite buttons for my number one to replace the brass ones, which had gone an interesting shade of green in storage!

Interestingly, in my years of trading in militaria I have often come across RAF "king's crown" (ie pre 1953) anodised buttons, and have never yet had a satisfactory explanation for these - possibly a trial, as many army units, particularly the technical corps, were going over to staybrites at that time. I used to do a good trade in RAF queen's crown brass cap badges with airmen who wanted to replace the tatty anodised badge on their SD cap - but the introduction of the embroidered thing in the 90s put an end to that trade.

[NutLoose]

Was issued with the blue shirts collars attached and Thunderbird jacket in March 76 at Swinditz, however whilst training at St Athans post Swinditz, some of the WRAF'S trainies were still being issued and wearing hairy mary's, as they used to ask if anyone had spare pyjama bottoms to wear under them, we were still getting the old overalls with the rubber buttons to wear, but these were replaced with the Velcro grey with dark blue collar jobbies on qualifying. The dark blue workshirts, 2nd pair of No2 trousers and lightweight trousers came out a wee bit later than 78 I think, more like 79 to 80 ish.

As for coats, I liked my Harold Wilson Mac, I refused to exchange it for the Dell Boy Trotter version that came out later, trouble was when it rained you stood out like a sore thumb, but at least it kept me dry.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

When I signed on as a Boy Entrant in Jan 64 we were issued with 3 shirts and 6 collars. The reversable variety came much later. At some point during the next 18 months we were issued with one collar attached shirt with buttons that came only half way down and it had 2 breast pockets. It was said that they were originally meant for SNCOs but were very unpopular so it was decided to make a general issue of the item. The collar attached shirt could only be worn with No.2 uniform. We also purchased the plastic collars, which I found to be very uncomfortable but were very easy to clean. (3 shirts = 1 on, 1 off and 1 in the wash.

Clip-on ties were never permitted and if caught wearing one it was punishable by being bound up with barbed wire or sent to the tin room for a week. They were easy to spot because we were not allowed to have a Windsor knot.

As BEs our working dress was the old National Service Best Blue - ie Similar to the Best blue style but made of Hairy Mary material and with brass buttons. Stay-bright beret badges were permitted only in No.2 and were private purchase only. We were never allowed stay-bright buttons on our T63.


Aaron.

[BEagle]

Hi-dome staybrite - 1969?
Optional duck egg blue/green shirt - 1970?
Wedgewood blue shirt - 1973??
Thunderbird jacket - 1974
Wings on wooly pullies - 1978?
Beret - last worn in 1974. Never again!!

Windsor knots were forbidden at my school. But at RAFC they were mandatory.

Then there were the joys of the single-ended bow tie with Mess Kit - as well as the stiff-fronted shirt, white waistcoat and wing collar, which fortunately all disappeared in the early 1970s except for Royal occasions. I only had to wear that hideously uncomfortable 'formal' No 5 dress once, thank heavens!

[NutLoose]

78 must of been about the time they screwed a decent wooly pullie up by giving it a vneck.

[BEagle]

No, the V-neck prep school pullover came in a few years later. Ridiculous looking thing it was too.

[jindabyne]

In the mid-eighties, M&S did a shirt that was quite acceptable in colour-terms, and was as smart as an arse. No epaulettes though. Particularly good collar.

As for the cheese-cutter hat on a dfferent thread, I was the first to wear one at Muharraq in '70 (or thereabouts) - much to the annoyance of OC Eng, who asked me to report to OC Admin, with a reason. First time that I was able to tell a Senior Oficer that he was out of order, ignored him, and walked on. Plonk.

[Shack37]

Nothing to add to the shirt query but no-one seems to have commented on the introduction of staybrite/anodised badges and buttons. Later than 1960, certainly. I went to the far east in March 1967 and was certainly wearing brass buttons up to that point, as were my airmen.


As a B/E in 1960/61 I have a vague recollection of staybrite buttons being available for purchase with the cap badge coming later. Our uniforms were referred to as Best Blue (T63) or Working Blue (with jacket not battledress style). Battledress was issued later on leaving St. Athan IIRC. No one ever referred to them as No.1s or 2s. These numbers usually described ones intention when going to the bogs. The Best Blue, if memory serves, was of something called Barathea (Sp)

[Fareastdriver]

Around 1966/7 there was a trial with an aircrew No 2 that had zips in the jacket instead of flap pockets. OC 230, Dave Todd, knew somebody who was running this trial and when it stopped he purloined the unused ones and handed them out to our squadron. A few years later when I came back from the Far East mine had been superceded by the woolly pully.

[Avionker]

V-neck wolly pully was very early 90's, or very, very late 80's I'm sure. Lightweight No2 trousers about mid 80's.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, our No 1s were built with staybright flats in '61.

Aaron, I got my first clipon in '65 in the States. Game definitely when I saw the stn cdr at Waddo wearing one in '67.

Jindabyne, those M&S ones were also available, with epaulettes, in that awful blue-green in the late '60s too. Different shade from the NAAFI ones, now there's a surprise.

[EngAl]

Shack37

I agree we only referred to Best Blue and Working Blue. Battledress was coming in in early 62. In Jan 62 I was one of a handful of my apprentice entry who got an initial issue of battledress as they'd run out of our sizes in jackets. But stores didn't want to part with them if they could help it! Didn't call them Storemen for nothing!

[FantomZorbin]

The staybrite 'high domed' buttons came in '69 to '71 - for which one was issued with a bill from SCAF!! All uniforms including greatcoat had to be 'done' by a certain date; it was a DIY arrangement - the brand new Mrs FZ took a dim view of this :E

[Tankertrashnav]

Around 1966/7 there was a trial with an aircrew No 2 that had zips in the jacket instead of flap pockets.


Wasn't that a Bomber Command thing? Beagle or P-N will know. I remember a PO who was a chopped pilot turning up at Catterick to do the Regiment officers' course in one on those things, complete with Regiment flashes. I think it lasted till lunchtime when he was ordered back to the mess to change. Mind you he didn't last any longer as a potential rockape than he had as a pilot!

[Shack37]

Around 1966/7 there was a trial with an aircrew No 2 that had zips in the jacket instead of flap pockets.



Wasn't that a Bomber Command thing? Beagle or P-N will know.


TTN
Saw this at Ballykelly on Coastal Command too in 1968. Don't think it caught on though.

[Pontius Navigator]

The zuit suit was classed as a flying suit and intended that high altitude crews, all Mk 2 Vs and the Lightning force would wear it and it was designed with a hole in the trousers for your G-pants and AVS tubes. In parallel it had been decreed that the working dress would be your second No 1 so that we were then given an allowance to buy a second No 1.

It looked most odd the Mk 2 crews on the OCU in '64 all wearing the free zuit suit and the Mk 1 crews in No 1.

We never flew in just a zuit suit but used to carry them in a large valise in case of diversion. By 1969 stocks were exhausted but rumour had it that there were still some in Cyprus. On posting there I hot footed it to stores but they only had one for a 6 foot 4 gorilla weighing over 200lbs. Then only 5-10 and 168lbs I immediately said I'll have it. The Paki tailor did wonders and with KD in the summer that free uniform lasted me until the International Rescue zuit suit came in and that lasted until the woolly pully and the lightweight trousers when the latter came in in 1984.

I never did buy that 2nd No 1 and bought a second hand one from a retiree in 1975. My next one was a Burtons, also from a retiree when I took over his job 25 years later.

Only ever had two SD hats in all my time too.

[BEagle]

Although barathea battledress was an option in the late 1960s, there was indeed an 'aircrew' version which was discotniued before I joined the RAF. It was similar in style to barathea battledress, but had sewn-down epaulattes and zip front pockets, as well as an AVS zip aperture.

I understood that only V-force and Lightning aircrew were entitled to it; the reason for its existence being, so I was told, that the Soviets had said that they wouldn't recognise flying clothing as 'uniform'.

Both 'normal' and 'V-force' barathea battledress were much, much smarter than the awful, shapeless 1972-pattern 'Thunderbird' thing. But even that was better than a V-necked pullover and tie - the last time I'd worn something like that was at prep school!

Anyway - wedgewood blue shirt with proper tie (how appallingly working class it would be to wear a clip-on tie...:yuk: ), lightweight No 2 trousers with stable belt loops and stable belt, zipped flying boots and shortened aircrew leather jacket - plus a proper officer's SD cap. And to hell with the SWO's blood pressure!

[brakedwell]

Commando! Blimey - can't think how I ended up with that. I was probably the most un-warlike airman on the station.

Perhaps you were a loving airman :)

[D120A]

Ah P-N, the Burtons No. 1 brings back a memory from the peace-protesting times of the late 1960s. A friend of mine, as usual short of the readies and looking for an inexpensive solution to a looming problem, went into his local branch of Burtons for a new uniform:

"I'd like an RAF Officer's No. 1 uniform please."

"Certainly Sir. What colour would you like it?"


:sad:

[stevef]

Perhaps you were a loving airman :)
Didn't have much chance of that, Brakes - it was a non-WRAF unit and all the local village girls seemed to be otherwise engaged. :*

[brakedwell]

Same when I was at Swinderby (1956/7}, but there was plenty of talent available at the Co-op Ballroom in Lincoln!

[sisemen]

Here we go...1972 or thereabouts. Zipped "battledress", working No 1's and a hairy battledress to boot.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/GSU73.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

lightweight No 2 trousers with stable belt loops and stable belt

The latter being 'optional' at own expense but deemed an item for when in Stone Tropical rig.

And belt loops - essential if the belt was going to be smart and an embuggerence factor when it came to dropping one's drawers as the belt then was side buckled. The loops of course were not a standard part of the kit so you had to have them made at own expense.

[plasticAF]

Seems we're moving back to them

[Pontius Navigator]

Now KD is yet another area where some 3* or 4* must have had a deal with a cloth manufacturer.

My first 'set' bought in UK was a complete hotch potch. I remember buying the shorts at an outfitters in Sleaford - RE City? - which came below the knee and had cross over waist straps. The shirts were a different cloth and a different colour.

Then had a 'proper' set made in Aden. Of course the Malta uniform was different from the Cyprus and Cyprus from Aden and Aden from Singapore.

My next set was from Butterworth. The Australian CO had decreed that the RAF and RAAF would have different coloured KD. I managed to persuade the tailor to make me an Aussie set as it was the same colour as the RAF Singapore items.

Airmen were issued with an entirely different colour and pattern. Then that was declared obsolete and a new set came out without shoulder patches, Then not long after it went Stone.

Around 1972 we were given buckets of cash (in Akrotiri) for buy shirts, shorts, bush jackets, No 6s etc but of course there was no cloth. The enterprising Mess then sent to Hong Kong for bolts of cloth which were dropped off on the home bound trooper.

Not content with this revolutionary re-issue from KD to Stone there was another plot in 1984. I had had to buy a new set of Stone from Au Wai Lam that were delivered to me VAT-free in ASI and naturally a different pattern to the others :)

We were then visited by a WRAF Blunty Wg Cdr who told us that we were going to have blue tropical kit. We laughed, oh how we laughed. She assured us that the shelves in stores at Lyneham were groaning with the stuff.

I wonder what happened to that pipe dream?

Now, in Cyprus, the preferred rig seems to be desert combats and not shorts. We couldn't wait to get in to shorts in the summer.

[ricardian]

Now, in Cyprus, the preferred rig seems to be desert combats and not shorts. We couldn't wait to get in to shorts in the summer.
Akrotiri 1965-67. KD was to be worn from a particular date, regardless of what the weather was on that date. All the married, living out chaps arrived on site wearing KD shorts and that dreadful blue RAF raincoat. It looked like a convention of flashers

[Pontius Navigator]

Ricardian, agreed, I managed to aquire a KD raincoat.

Actually it was an RNZAF issue pac-a-mac style and absolutely perfect for those tropical downpours. I still had it in Ascension some years later. I used go to the mess in flip-flops, the mac, and a brolly with boots, socks, and a towel underneath.

[J.A.F.O.]

siseman

And that's at the Group "Standardisation" Unit.

[Wensleydale]

Ricardian, agreed, I managed to aquire a KD raincoat.




I remember the spoof orders for new personnel to report to stores for ridiculous items such as tartan cotton and DPM paint: one of these items was the "KD Greatcoat". After some preparation by the section practical joker, one young man was sent back to the squadron with a storeman's brown overall coat complete with sewn on brass buttons!

Another green-horn was sent to be issued with his KD NBC kit - the "type with shorts rather than trousers" as was explained by his flt sgt.

[Shack37]

All the married, living out chaps arrived on site wearing KD shorts and that dreadful blue RAF raincoat. It looked like a convention of flashers


Ricardian.......that was very, very nearly a coffee/keyboard moment.

[Samuel]

RNZAF uniforms were essentially similar to those of the RAF although KD, which was officially "stone Grey" wasn't issued to those in Singapore, rather we were given money to have it tailored by "No1 Jimmy". Given the different levels of cloth quality, there was a considerable variation in colour after washing a few times, with the result that the CO Tengah politely suggested to the CO 14 that 14Sqn were excused parades!

We also wore that ridiculous tropical blue cotton chip bag hat, which had even more variations. Look at the CO [ S/LGeoff Wallingford] in this photo and compare!

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/Shadblat/GovernorGeneralofNZ.jpg

[BEagle]

I used go to the mess in flip-flops, the mac, and a brolly with boots, socks, and a towel underneath.

Yup, sounds like a flasher to me.....:eek:

Who remembers the 'sweater cashmere' mess kit spoof of around 1980? This was the 'new mess kit' for officers and had 'moleskin facings', gold wire wings / brevet and gold rank badge shoulder boards....

I think it was organised by 115 Sqn around 1 Apr; they would sneak into the OM with a 'letter' for the noticeboard wherever they went for flight calibration duties. Detail was very good - even the visiting OM tailors' price lists were carefully amended to include 'sweater, cashmere, No. 5 dress'....:ok:

Caught out quite a few people!

[Pontius Navigator]

I loved those ankle socks. What started off as a small band of knee cap between the sock and the 'shorts' getting larger and larger. I remember not a few 'shorts' with the bottoms turned up and the pockets showing below and no socks at all in Ascension.

[goudie]

An old sweat told me that during the war, on arrival at Cape Town they had to go ashore wearing KD. The trousers were multi purpose, inasmuch one could convert them from 'longs' to 'shorts' by a series of folds, then securing them by buttons around one's thighs! The folded space between the buttons was used to carry one's personal items.
The RMAF wore jungle green, in the '60's, which looked very smart but for some reason we changed to kd which was of rather poor quality.

[langleybaston]

Fascinating and very informative. As MoD civilians attached RAF Nicosia 1961-64 we were sent to a Nicosia tailor for complete KD kits at own expence. The shirts, shorts and KD longs were of superb material, and lasted me well into the 1970s in UK. Socks were long and khaki wool, with white longs as a flashy alternative. No tie ever contemplated.
I remember Mick Martin, the staish [of 617 fame] asking where Met. got their gear.
This would be as he was cadging yet another fag whilst pretending he wanted a briefing. The office kept fags and matches handy, with him in mind.
The SWO changed his KD at least once and often twice each day.

[sisemen]

Samuel - What's that 7 foot bloke doing with a 4 foot bloke's uniform?

KD was to be worn from a particular date, regardless of what the weather was on that date

Back in the 'old' days that's exactly what used to happen in the UK as well. Summer would generally arrive unannounced and early some years and we sweated away in hairy battledress, and weren't allowed out of doors without the jacket.

Multitudes of complaints eventually, sometimes, got the Staish to relent and orders were issued to the SWO to get the SRO out pronto. Once the restrictions were relaxed to summer dress (hairy battledress, shirt sleeves neatly rolled to the elbow and tie tucked in somewhere mid chest) that was the cue for it to start snowing!

Flexibility is the key to airpower :{

And that's at the Group "Standardisation" Unit.

It was standardisation JAFO. The 2 navs are in zip ups, the 2 AEOs are in No 1s and, knowing my place, a very, very young Sisemen is in hairy blues (but once commissioned I tried to make sure that my "uniform" was as individual as possible!)

[Pontius Navigator]

Siseman, you forgot we had to wear ties.

Then the rules changed and you could remove ties outdoors but had to wear them indoors.

Then you could remove your jacket but had to roll your sleeves up.

We started to keep our sleeves down when jackets were removed. They then ordered us to roll our sleeves up but instituted a trial of sleeves worn down. This was at Akrotiri and the trial extended to just 3 people; the PA to the Stn Cdr, OC Ops Wing (Gp Capt Mike Beavis) and one other. It was deemed a success and we were all allowed sleeves up or down :)

Some years later on a particularly hot summer the staish at Waddo allowed the women (not WRAF) to forego tights. 'Advisor Airwomen' said this was not permitted and they had to wear tights again.

Remember also in the Cornish Riviera the groundcrew used to go in to KD.

[Dan Gerous]

I went through Swinditz in 76 and we were issued 4 shirts with collars attached, a thunderbird jacket and a wooly pully. As has been mentioned a dark blue shirt came in around 78, for engineering trades, but you had to change 2 of your normal blue shirts for 2 dark blue ones. A fiddle we used to work, when somebody was leaving the airforce, they got to keep the shirts, along with other stuff, and if they didn't want to keep them we'd scrounge them and change them for new ones. I think I ended with 4 of each. I seem to recall we called the dark blue shirts, "Navy" shirts, as they looked the same as the Navy's shirt. Also at the same time they changed the colour of the safety wellies from black, to the light brown that the Navy also used. We suspected that this was to stop us wearing the black ones with uniform outside the work area. The SWO at Lossie was forever nabbing guys for wearing the safety wellies with their No.2's. I left in 85 and there was a new style of shirt coming in with a larger collar that looked horrible, and I called this the "Elvis" shirt. It was about this time that the V neck wooly started to appear, which again I didn't think much of, and this may have tempted me to start wearing the Thunderbird jacket, if I had stayed in any longer. The Thunderbird jacket was a horrible looking thing and I avoided wearing it unless ordered to. Later on as a Cpl, I would sometimes wear it if I was on some duty or other outside of my normal work area. I think there were a lot of people who didn't like the Thunderbird jacket, but strangely after the Falklands war it started to become popular with a certain faction who had never worn it before. Of course it couldn't possibly be anything to do with the fact that you had medal ribbons on your No2 jacket!

[sisemen]

Siseman, you forgot we had to wear ties.

Oh no I didn't :}

(hairy battledress, shirt sleeves neatly rolled to the elbow and tie tucked in somewhere mid chest

[Halton Brat]

I am considering launching a law suit against MOD in respect of the scarring suffered by my 16yr-old body (Halton 1971) due to:

a) Permanent collar-stud indentations to my neck.
b) Severe chafing to the inside of my tender thighs due to the highly abrasive Hairy Mary trousers, even though I shaved them (the trousers, not my thighs).
c) Major bruising to my head inflicted by FS K-- D-w-b-ry (RAF Regt), using the cap-badge end of my beret as a weapon. We youths had drawn SLR's from the armoury for the first time, & the good FS (who had been fired from the SS for cruelty) demonstrated how to 'clear & make safe' the weapon upon receipt. I duly pulled back the cocking handle & looked inside, and could see nothing at all (working parts now to the rear). I approached FS
K-- & said stupidly "excuse me Flight, there are no bits in my gun".
Well, my memories of the next 30secs are a blur of shouting & pain, as FS K-- used his well-honed martial arts skills on my head with my beret.

I am truly a damaged individual.......

HB

[teeteringhead]

very fashionable knitted black tie a Sqn Cdr of mine (early 70s) had a good line in knitted ties which looked vaguely familiar. Turned out he had connections in the Rag trade, and had "obtained" a reel of officers' SD cap ribbon - the woven black hatband stuff.

He would cut off a length and use it as a tie. When quizzed as to its longevity (not much) he's say: "When it wears out, I bit in and cut off another one from the reel."

Another sartorial eccentricity of his was the 3-piece No 1. He always wore a Number 1 when not flying, and in those pre-wooly pully days obviously found the bosses' office a tad draughty for shirtsleeves nad the jacket a bit constricting for desk work. Solution: he had a matching vest/waistcoat made (full length; not like a No 5 one), complete with little brass buttons (probably from No5, never got that close) which he would don in the office having doffed his No1 jacket. Perhaps if VERY cold he could even wear it under the jacket!

And he retired as a 2-star ......... ;)

[Sinker]

The waistcoat was an approved option with No 1 at one time, though I never saw one.

I went to the OCTU in June 1972 and was issued with collar attached cotton shirts of the end on end kind. They were nearly identical in colour to the ones worn by officers, but the more expensive officers' shirts had curious curved corners - or lack of corners - to their cuffs. I continued wearing mine until well into the 1970s, possibly early 1980s, gradually replacing them with wedgewood blue polycotton from the clothing store.

Great coats were on the way out - courses earlier in 1972 had been given deficiency chits - we didn't even get that.

When I was doing my basic nav training in 1973, one of my course mates appeared in a pullover - the first one any of us had seen. The V neck was definitely in service by 1987 because I remember OC 30 wearing one when he was PMC and I was Mess Treasurer.

[PeregrineW]

Blimey, I go away for a weekend and come back to a veritable cornucopia of information in reply! Excellent stuff, thanks chaps, I think my questions have been thoroughly answered!

Have to say, the picture of the aircrew types standing next to the "Standardisation Unit" sign made me laugh out loud! :)

[teeteringhead]

Have to say, the picture of the aircrew types standing next to the "Standardisation Unit" sign made me laugh out loud! It was (and probably still is!) a chargeable offence in the SH Force for any 2 crew members in a group to be dressed identically, unless and until (IIRC) the total number in the group exceeds 30. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Sinker, re-officers shirts, when the new colour came in in '74 an enterprising Irishman visited all the messes offering us then new pattern shirts the same as the MOD was ordering in bulk for stores.

What we didn't know was that he was front-loading his production line. He met our orders and true to his word we got them, at higher cost, before they arrived in stores. We simply got the first batch off the production line.

As for cuffs being different that could be down to the MOD placing more than one contract and not ensuring the details were properly sorted.

An example of MOD contracts, or rather Air Ministry ones, was the cold weather gloves much prized by tanker drivers (not airframe ones). They were soft leather with the liner sewn in to the leather but different colours. For some reason they had been separately procured as gaunlets, left and gaunlets, right.

Little wonder that the RAF never, in all my time, had a uniform the same between two or more individuals.

[PeregrineW]

Makes me laugh to hear certain factions of the re-enactment community go on about how WW2 Service Dress was exactly that shade of blue, and SD caps were all exactly that tall...:ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

PW, it is a tribute to our cloth manufacturers that they use natural materials and a different dye for each batch.

Always impressed with the USAF uniforms, until they put those epaulettes on, with every top and bottom matching and blending with the shirts, and every man the same. Shoes OTOH is yet another story!

[PeregrineW]

I suppose our American colleagues have, for once, interpreted an English word (uniform) better than we ourselves do!

[sisemen]

Long shot ... but I don't suppose anybody remembers what happened to that 1 GSU sign??

Took me 'kin ages to design, cut, and polish the metal bits and then paint the sign.

[philrigger]

It appears that a lot of pruners think that the round neck wooly-pulley was the first sweater to be issued - not so. We used to get issued with a very light weight long sleeved, V-necked jumper for use in cold weather. I seem to recall that it could not be worn without a jacket and the tie was worn outside of the jumper. I found it to be very comfortable.

Also the old woolen gloves as issued to erks could not be worn unless the wearer was also wearing a raincoat or greatcoat.


Phil.

[Madbob]

Close to my planned exit I had the misfortune to "mislay" my well-worn SD hat in the gents at Manston when on a brief visit, and very soon therafter a new puppy decided to take a fancy to my No.1 "Sunday best" Bates' hat. Result, no servicable SD hat and being close to my exit I was understandably not keen on shelling out for replacements......

My only hat was my trusty chip bag which was fine for working wear but no good for parades or SDO! Hence the question...."when did the practice of wearing side caps and No.1 cease?"

I ended up borrowing a SD hat for my last day in uniform as I cleared and said goodbye to the execs and my children who used to use remnants of my uniform for fancy dress parties always complained that they needed a hat to complete the outfit!

Still got my helmet though, not that it's much use without one of Aunt Betty's best to plug it into... :ok:

MB

[NutLoose]

Ok I cannot resist this one... Sorry


Still got my helmet though

Of course you have, you couldn't have become an officer if you were not a complete pr....


:p ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Madbob, and bush jacket and shorts.

The Stone bush jacket could be either long sleeved, short sleeved, or long sleeved rolled up. Uniform!

You ask when did Forage caps and No 1s stop? You might also ask when did berets and No 2s stop. I have a picture on my uncle in his barathea No 2s and beret.

No so much traditions more a question of habits.

[NutLoose]

It is a bit like when did Civi pilots stop wearing their ribbons on their uniforms. I suppose it just died out.

[Impiger]

Madbob

Sir Peter Squire when CAS around the turn of the century was still wearing a forage cap with his No1 on non-parade occasions. Saw him hosting foreign air chiefs at Farnborough in that rig.:ok:

[Old Bricks]

Slight thread drift, but the stories of crew-neck vs v-neck sweaters, brought to mind how rules on clothing changed fairly arbitrarily. In 1970, as a senior entry flight cadet at Cranwell, we were used to the rule that you either wore a suit in the Mess or a jacket and tie at weekends. With the advent of the first GEs, there was severe whinging by them, as unreformed student-types, that a jacket and tie at weekends was definitely OTT. A notice appeared from the PMC that from the following Saturday, a v-neck sweater over shirt and tie would be acceptable at weekends until 1900 hrs. Overwhelmed with excitement, and with Trenchard doing barrel-rolls in his grave, I made a special trip to M&S in Grantham to buy a sweater. Come Sat lunchtime, resplendent in the new kit, I strolled down to the dining room, only to be stopped at the door by the FS who said "Where do you think you are going dressed like that?" Me: "It's OK, FS, the rules have changed." FS: "The new rules only apply to officers (ie GEs), and you ain't one, so f*** off and get changed into a jacket". End of democracy. SNAFU.

[Tankertrashnav]

You ask when did Forage caps and No 1s stop? You might also ask when did berets and No 2s stop. I have a picture on my uncle in his barathea No 2s and beret.



I'm hazarding a guess I'm younger than your uncle P-N. Certainly this was still seen at Catterick c 1965 when I was a newly commissioned Rockape. Had to be an officers' beret (usually from Gieves), an airmen's beret with an officers' pattern badge wouldn't do. Also when I was in Aden we wore DMS boots with Fox's officers' puttees with our KD socks and shorts, much to the amusement of just about everyone else who sensibly wore desert boots with theirs.

[Shack37]

Multitudes of complaints eventually, sometimes, got the Staish to relent and orders were issued to the SWO to get the SRO out pronto. Once the restrictions were relaxed to summer dress (hairy battledress, shirt sleeves neatly rolled to the elbow and tie tucked in somewhere mid chest) that was the cue for it to start snowing!


And those wonderful Indian summers with greatcoat over full kit.

(hairy battledress, shirt sleeves neatly rolled to the elbow and tie tucked in somewhere mid chest (hairy battledress, shirt sleeves neatly rolled to the elbow and tie tucked in somewhere mid chest

Tween 2nd and 3rd buttons if memory serves.

[Pontius Navigator]

Sorry TTN, I meant real Air Force :E

[Dengue_Dude]

Talk of uniform is funny . . . my best blue is an exhibit at Doncaster Aviation Museum and one of the Varsitys that I'd flown as a stude.

[Tankertrashnav]

Well P-N - as I have explained before we didnt actually regard aircrew as "real" officers, just mere drivers airframe, etc. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

And then you crossed from the dark side . . .

[Pontius Navigator]

DD, and my No 5s are at Manston.

[Exascot]

I am working on smart phone and can't go all the way through this thread. When was KD phased out in the Royal Air Force? Also I never wore shorts. Were officers always allowed to wear shorts? Big argument with 'her who thinks that she is always right':confused:

[oxenos]

I am sure I have seen a photo somewhere of a very attractive young lady modelling an R.A.F. shirt and not a lot else.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I can recall wearing KD in 1988 just prior to demob.

Officers were wearing shorts in Singapore in 1958.


Aaron.

[Pontius Navigator]

KD actually went out in 1972 to be replaced by Stone.

I saw Stone being worn in Cyprus only a couple of years ago. There was a mix of stone, CS95 and Desert. What you wore seemed to be up to you.

One reason for combats replacing Stone (or Blues) is practically the same reason that aircrew wear onesies :} - they are free whereas blues and stone have to be paid for if you are an officer.

I think the Army goes the same way with officers avoiding barrack dress on the slightest pretext. I know my colonel had combats several sizes larger than his No 2 dress uniform. I am sure his blues would not have fitted at all. :)

[Tankertrashnav]

Exascot I spent about two and a half years altogether in Aden and the Far East in the late 60s. We always wore shorts in the daytime and long trousers in the evening (anti malaria precaution, sleeves rolled down at night as well). Shame the bush jacket went out, it was smart and much more comfortable than the No 6 which required a shirt and tie.

[A2QFI]

"I understood that only V-force and Lightning aircrew were entitled to it" Because we wore the same flying kit as V force (Taylor helmet and pressure jerkin) PR9 crews were also issued with the "Breast Feeders" and got the pre and post flight meals too. A useful add-on for the under 25s on minimal allowances. In Kenya the Eastleigh mess couldn't provide the meals so we ate in the Embakasi airport restaurant which was very tasty, and they did our in flight sarnies too!

[NutLoose]

We were issued "KD" in the late 80's for Deci..... shorts and all, though thankfully not the underwear which apparently were longer in length than the shorts that went over them, by a good inch from what I was told.

[Danny42C]

Exascot,

All ranks wore shorts in India (and all the rest of the tropics) when I was there ('42-'46). Stores issue was 'orrible - get the dherzi to run them up for next to nothing.

Americans sweated in their KD slacks and greatly envied us !

Danny

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

PN

KD actually went out in 1972 to be replaced by Stone.


Quite correct. I was in Cyprus 71-73. I did not get issued with the new 'stone' uniform on my tour. We did get a loan of one pair of trousers and one long sleeved shirt to take part in a Squadron Standard presentation.

While on detachment at Akrotiri in the winter/Spring of 1984 we were required to stay an extra two months because of the 'do' that was going on in Beirut at that time. With only blues to wear we were issued with the old style KD (Big buckles etc) which at that time only issued for working on aircraft. It was very scruffy and we did look out of place and received lots of comments from certain quarters, especially in the Sgts' Mess.


Aaron.

[RAFEngO74to09]

All the Stone items ("safari" jacket, long trousers, shorts, long sleeve shirt and short sleeve shirt) were issued to those who were sent to AHQ Riyadh during GW1 in 1990-91. Most of us wore the "Part Worn Serviceable" (ie multiple previous loaners) Tropical DPMs the whole time - at least I managed to get a couple of sets with shirt / trouser colours that matched and without holes in them by being allowed to rummage behind the counter at Innsworth by appointment instead of trusting to luck with whatever was sent to Uxbridge.

For those of us that volunteered to do a double tour + for the duration, the ill-fitting Desert DPMs arrived just in time to go home in !

How times have changed for the better with the way CS95 and PCS was / is available.

[Milo Minderbinder]

The GWI reference is interesting

When that happened, Survival Aids (of Morland, Cumbria) got a massive UOR to supply desert clothing to replace what in many cases was preserved WWII kit!
Of course, they never got paid by the MOD so went bust......thats why the shops at Euston and Colchester suddenly closed, stopping you getting the bespoke combat gear.

But....the really strange thing is, that clothing was only ordered at the very last minute when someone realised how crap the stored clothing was. Yet Angus Fire Armour (of High Bentham) got MOD orders for fuel and water hoses for desert use for a major war three years before GWI kicked off.....one suspects a lack of information supply in planning
Of course Angus never got paid either, meaning they had to sell out to Kidde of the USA after the war ended

[Mickj3]

I was issued the "new" stone tropical dress in August 1970 when posted to Singapore.

[500N]

Milo

Why did the MOD not pay two companies ?

Or is that the way the UK Gov't does business ?

[Pontius Navigator]

When Stone came in in 1971-72 the Officers' Mess at Akrotiri placed an order for a number of bolts of material so that we could have uniforms made up. We had a very generous allowance for the new issue No 6 and also shorts, shirts, trousers and jackets. It was very welcome.

Naturally a number of us, looking at tourex dates during the winter season of 72-73 decided to avoid buying No 6s.

OC Admin Wing, knowing this, decided the Station would parade for AOCs in the last week of summer 1972 which saw a flurry of officers rushing to get No 6s made up for a one-off. With a bit of forward planning I ensured we were the ferry crew to take an aircraft back to UK.

When I next wore tropical rig 12 years later I found it had all shrunk and Au Wai Lam came to the rescue.

My 5a jacket, run up by the Paki tailor still fitted but was now in disruptive white and orange. The spousal dhobi walla got it more or less white and the laundry in Aberdeen did a good job of final restoration. It had to be returned however for a liberal application of starch. The starched jacket was looking very much the worse for wear after 6 or 7 dining in nights on my rigorous tour - Red Sea rig became the norm during that period but I didn't have the right shirt and Mrs PN couldn't find a suitable one in the UK winter.

[ICM]

Mid-October 1965, and it's our Nav Course's overseas trip (by Varsity) to Gib, where they are still in KD. Stores at Stradishall issue us students a set of KD for our day off down there - shirt and shorts crammed into a plastic wallet, of a type that I'm sure I later knew as a headset bag. What it would have looked like in use we never knew, as our Dep Course Commander went immediately after arrival to the Station Commander to request permission for us to stay in Blue. And happily, that was granted.

Later I recall the 1971 and 72 get-togethers of those on Exchange with the USAF at the Air University in Alabama, during the RAF Staff College's annual visits there. At the first night Reception, we all look pretty much identically kitted in our new Stone-coloured No 6s. However, on the next morning as we show up for the day's lectures etc, the full panoply of KD shades available at the time, from ivory to yellow, depending on place of origin, is on display. Uniformity, indeed!

Edited to add: It wasn't just the different colours, but different kit - Bush Jackets, shirts with long or short sleeves, different weave patterns in the cloth and, no doubt, the odd Stable Belt thrown in just to add to the variety to the whole.

[ricardian]

On posting to RAF Sharjah in 1963 all my KD was dated 1947 or earlier. I also received a pair of sandals which were worn with socks in the winter and without socks in the summer; also a pair of sunglasses with NHS-style frames. The ridiculous thing was that we had to take ALL our kit (including greatcoat) to Sharjah. It was stored on station and returned to us on tourex.
And in response to an earlier question - yes, everybody from Air Rank down wore shorts during the daytime in the Persian Gulf, Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar, El Adem.

[Whenurhappy]

Milo,

I echo 500N's comments. if a contract was awarded, why were the companies not paid?

On a separate issue (and I've asked elsewhere) if anyone has a set of No 6s and a Tropical Mess jacket that they wish to part with, (44 inch chest 34-36 inch waist) let me know. I am in the market for a second lot and can't afford the ludicrous prices that are proffered for a new set.

NZWP

[Basil]

we didnt actually regard aircrew as "real" officers
As an ex MN engineer officer, I was well accustomed to that concept.
As I said to a colleague yesterday: "As a Flt Lt I'd have made a good Sergeant!"
NCOs, please don't take offence ;)

[NutLoose]

Well if you saw Gibralter Britain in the Sun tonight on Channel 5 the Flight Sgt in charge of the Radar dome renewal was wearing Stone, so I take it is still issued.

[Q-RTF-X]

Anyway - wedgewood blue shirt with proper tie (how appallingly working class it would be to wear a clip-on tie... ),

I don't think we working class OR's could afford a proper clip on. More than a few however made their own variation with an issue tie, a piece of elastic and a pair of scissors ;)

[Whenurhappy]

Stone grey is most definitely still issued. Gibraltar, Italy, Cyprus, plus personnel assigned to the Middle East and to Defence Sections are issued it, although PCS is more often worn these days in Cyprus and smaller, permanent dets in the Middle East.

[Milo Minderbinder]

500N / Whenurhappy

Sorry, I missed your questions yesterday, went to bed early: shattered.

I don't know the full details - I got them second-hand from work colleagues who had been employed by both companies.
It may have been more accurate I had I said "not paid on time" so causing cash flow / liquidity problems which made the companies insolvent.
Its a favourite past-time for large companies, and government departments are no different. They'll spin payment out for as long as possible - in some cases hoping the company will fold so they can avoid paying.
Theres a whole business discipline devoted to the art: its humorously known as post-contract negotiation. Basically the buyers purchase ledger team pull every trick under the sun to avoid payment, and if they have the QC/QA team on side as well then you can block payment almost indefinitely. Certain training companies will even teach you how to maximise your skills in the art....its essential knowledge in any high value engineering contract.

But to get back on track.....as relayed to me, both companies suffered from post-delivery payment delay, partially over fake claims of quality irregularities in the goods delivered. All government does it. I used to have real problems getting cash for chemicals.....

[goudie]

On a trip to the States in '59 with 617 Sqdn. we were all coached to Innsworth for the day to be issued with a barathea? khaki No1 uniform. A storeman sized us up, chucked a jacket and trousers at us and then a group of ladies adjusted the length, tacking as required, in record time. Unfortunately we had to wear the normal airtex khaki shirt and black tie with them,which looked ghastly. Fortunately our USAF friends came to our rescue and lent us their smart poplin shirts, when we had to attend any formal reception.
As an aside, I saw two airmen on the tv the other day and I must say they looked very smart in their ( I assume) working dress. Certainly looked better than the old hairy job I wore!

[500N]

Milo

I met some guys over the in the US in the UK firearms industry who did
a fair bit with the Brit Mil. Anyway, we were talking about night Vision
gear etc and he said the Brit Mil had this device.

He also said they had been issued a request for quote, which he binned and a while late someone called asking where the quote was, to be told they were not putting one in !

When asked why, he just told them flat out, "you'll want a demo unit at no cost for 6 months or more, you'll screw us on the price so no profit in it and
then you'll take bloody ages to pay" ! They were stunned because they
were not the only one's not to submit a quote !.