.....In May, just days before the last election, police detained a group of HIV-positive women for allegedly working as prostitutes and trying to inflict serious harm on clients. Twelve of the women, from Greece, eastern Europe and Russia, had their photographs and identities released to the media. The affair outraged human rights groups.

The above is from The Guardian in an article about government cuts, affecting public health.

My beef is with the last line: if the authorities had proof that the women were continuing to practice their trade whilst knowing they were HIV positive , I think it is completely right to publicise their photos. Whether condoms or not, I imagine a lot of punters would want to be informed about the HIV status of their potential sex-partner.

It would interest me to know if the protests are about the publicising of the photos per se or whether it is felt that the ability to make a living will be affected and that takes precedent over the customers' right to know.

If anybody has read any more detailed reports, I would be glad to hear about that point.

Dear AlpineSkier, there were quite a few elections in May, including important ones in both France and Greece. So far as "government cuts, affecting public health" are concerned, take your pick from most of the 193 member states of the UN. So please post a link to the original Guardian article for clarification... :}

Whether condoms or not, I imagine a lot of punters would want to be informed about the HIV status of their potential sex-partner. You appear to be posting from a stand-point that the 'punters' are all males, and that their 'potential sex-partners' are all 'females' and prostitutes. It's been at least 20 years since I was last considered a 'customer'. So I'm not overly concerned.

So far as I'm aware, there are no 'online databases', updated on at least a daily-basis, which 'punters' might consult for more information on their 'potential sex-partners', whether or not prostitutes. Excuse my ignorance, but I've always had the impression that it can take several weeks before someone 'newly-infected' with HIV actually tests positive...?! So far as more normal 'non-prostitutional encounters' (sorry, couldn't find a better term) are concerned, one is hardly better-off or more informed. So all precautions necessary should be taken (until Apple, Facebook, Google and whatever perhaps manage to put together an 'app') that somehow assures the average 'punter' in the pub that the 'bird' he's got an eye on is probably 90% safe... :rolleyes:

IMHO, if known HIV-positive prostitutes are going to be 'named and shamed', with their photos and identities published online, then I would not be opposed to past, existing or potential customers also being obliged to appear. In the interests of public safety and non-discrimination etc.

Of course, if airship was employed by government or NGO, I would do my best to rehabilitate these girls, so as to avoid further contamination. You can argue about prostitution until the cows come home, but you won't stop it from happening, today or in 250 years' time in the future...?! The costs of rehabilitation if 'someone' was actually funding and responsable for it would probably be far less than the actual and continuing costs to societies in other forms.

No, let's all continue to allow our elected politicians the wherewithal to build duck-ponds at public expense, and duck the real issues... :uhoh:

Thanks airship. Your reply was as useful as always.

Je vous en prie. Are you going to clarify / make a point concerning your original post? :bored:

objective discussion and thread killed in one post ?

airship

I really don't understand why you are posing your question - are you being serious that you can't see what it is about in my initial post ?

To precis : Human rights activists are protesting* about publicising the details of HIV-positive prostitutes (*for unspecified reasons ).

I find their point of view ridiculous when it may prevent some infections.

Hmm. Heres an idea.

A world wide publicly accessible database giving the identity of every person with HIV/Aids. Shame for those infected innocently considering the response some sections of the public are likely to have, but hay, one step less than a big red "A" tattooed on their foreheads. (And a big "J" for the Jewden, and an "H" for the Hologrames.....).

That may be even more effective preventing some infections. :eek:




Just a thought like...........

if the authorities had proof that the women were continuing to practice their trade whilst knowing they were HIV positive , I think it is completely right to publicise their photos.

I disagree. If they are HIV+ and selling some boinky-boinky without telling their "customers", they should be jailed for putting lives in danger. After all, this isn't something that can be cured with a course of penicillin.

It happened here, the person was charged and IIRC he was found guilty.
HIV-positive circus acrobat Godfrey Zaburoni slips through Queensland Health net | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/hiv-positive-circus-acrobat-godfrey-zaburoni-slips-through-queensland-health-net/story-e6freon6-1225872951046)
At the time it was seen as an unusual case, because most people here who are HIV or Hep positive are very careful not to infect others. I've known people with both diseases, and they would have walked over broken glass rather than see other people infected. If there are people out there who don't give a toss, that's what the law is there for.

Alpine Skier,

Don't worry, some people understand exactly what your post was about.

If they were guilty, then too bloody right they should be named and shamed (and photos published), as well as being given a custodial sentence.

Not only are they dangerous criminals, but the publicity would help past partners to find out, and maybe they will in turn get checked out fir HIV.

In the UK, men who are accused of rape get named and shamed and photos splashed on the news, before any trial is concluded. A friend of mine who is a detective in the Met whose job it is is to investigate rapes reckons that well over 60% of accusations are malicious and spends a large majority of her time disproving accusations. The accuser gets away with it, despite the accused having been put through hell, and despite valuable resources (that could be better employed investigating genuine rape) having been sidelined.

Wrongly accused men have been known to take their own life because they cannot shake the stigma. Where are the bleeding heart liberals when it comes to these cases?

Why allow diseased people into the country in the first place?:uhoh:

In the UK, men who are accused of rape get named and shamed and photos splashed on the news, before any trial is concluded.IMO this is why the committal process should remain and why people shouldn't be named in the media before they are committed to stand trial, whatever the offence. It's an added expense, but at least it reduces the 'trial by Facebook' effect. :yuk:

Why allow diseased people into the country in the first place?

@<hidden>

Because they likely don't have checks. Many countries used to ( I was tested for TB and VD in Germany in the 70's and for TB in Switzerland in the 90's ) but these checks have been done away with because they were thought no longer necessary.

Think I read the other day that UK is thinking of re-introducing TB tests for visitors from certain countries.

Human Rights or Public Health?

I'm all for pubic health :D

And from who they got their HIV from those hookers???
"clients"? The same ones you want to defend with your human rights?
"rapes"?

They are from eastern Europe, Russia, Greece?
Not only their "clients" gave them HIV, but those girls are also victims of some mafia related human slavery shady group.

It almost look like you want to burn some whitches here. Back in middle age on internet?

If any body desagree with this post, so let's show the same willing to put down the ones who without shame gave those girls HIV in addition to use their body against some money given to some mafia group, and they will perhaps get some credibility to my eyes.

KAG

If someone knows they are HIV+ and they go out there boinking anything that moves with no thought of the potential consequences, and/or without telling whoever they are getting it on with so that person can CHOOSE to either continue with the humping or decline a jump, they should be charged, convicted and punished like the various people in the UK, USA, Finland, Germany, France, Switzerland have, and in Canada you can face far more serious charges up to Murder IF the person(s) you infect die as a consequence.

Doesn't matter if you are a hooker or not, you are a lethal weapon. That is the issue at hand here, not what the women are but what they are doing. You also have to remember that by publicising their pictures you WILL make the "clients" at least think of getting tested so there is a lower risk of them passing the virus onto others if they are actually infected. The rights of the public at large come before the rights of the few when it comes to an incurable disease like HIV. Preventing the spread of the virus where possible is the number one priority, and that is a far higher priority than some whores' ability to make money.

KAG, as always, more often than not, you're the voice of reason. :ok:

Unlike hellsbrink perhaps: Doesn't matter if you are a hooker or not, you are a lethal weapon. Presumably therefore, hellsbrink would be the first to subscribe to some form of International database (after being suitably tested for HIV and then regularly tested, perhaps once every 2-3 weeks) in order to maintain his own "non-lethality"...?!

KAG, briefly mentions some sources of prostitution, HIV etc. emanating from the mafia and the newer EU countries. It's a complete disgrace to the EU that today, certain eastern European countries are attempting to join the EU whilst doing little to combat these mafias indulging in modern slavery. And voices in the EU prefer to ignore all that...?!

For what it's worth (and info for prospective visitors to the Cote d'Azur in summer 2012), the only French prostitutes I ever see around La Croisette these days tend to be in their 40s or 50s...?! Presumably there are also numerous and much younger eastern Europeans engaged in the industry here, but who invariably keep a very low profile and are only known to their town-hall supporters together with their pimps (even if pimps are illegal here).

Well, at least we agree on one point hellsbrink, HIV is a disaster and giving it to somebody is a crime.

Most hookers from Russia and eastern Europe working in western Europe don't have their destiny in hands, most of them are slaves. When they are infected by their clients they don't even know it until they die.
Your effort to delete all the cr@<hidden> around them (rapists, clients who force them to do it without condom, mafia) to turn them into murderer stinks big time.

Right now the only victims in this story are the hookers who have been infected, and we cannot see it?

Those girls are loosers and slave in the real life, they will most likely die young after a shitty life, and you want to make them to be the bad ones on this thread?

The ones who infected them are to be punished, they are most likely men, with money/and/or power, so let's forget about it, let's attack the victims!

You can turn this story in any direction you want, I will always be on the side of the victims of slavery, HIV, mafia, and the of victims of people who believes they can buy anything, today those victims in this story are the hookers mentioned.

End of rant.

airship

Instead of extrapolating everything back and forward, why not address the basic reality for once.

The situation is that HIV pos. whores are continuing to work ( apparently without informing their clients )

1)Immediate action can be taken to minimise the risk by publishing their condition.

2) Other actions including international databases, testing customers, making it illegal to be a HIV pos. customer take much longer.


Are you saying that the actions in 1) shouldn't be undertaken because it is unfair that 2) cannot be enacted in the same time-frame.

Even if they are the victims of Mafia slave-trading, what rights does this confer on them KAG to be able to infect (many) other people ?? Doesn't have a lot to do with rescuing them from the business , does it ?

Think you must be very tired. Contribution ( the first one that is ) doesn't have your usual style.

Presumably therefore, hellsbrink would be the first to subscribe to some form of International database (after being suitably tested for HIV and then regularly tested, perhaps once every 2-3 weeks) in order to maintain his own "non-lethality"...?!

Unlike some, dear boy, I would not be the type who would do something to spread such a disease IF I contracted it, and since it would be on my Global Medical Dossier, as well as being on some sort of ID stating I had HIV (my choice, not mandatory) in case of any emergency, such a register would not be necessary for ME. Some of us do have enough brain cells to realise the potential consequences and would act accordingly to ensure that said potential consequences do not turn into reality.

If you, on the other hand, would see the need for such measures as you suggest for yourself should you actually come down with such a disease, then it says everything.

Well, thanks airship.

Alpineskier:Even if they are the victims of Mafia slave-trading, what rights does this confer on them KAG to be able to infect (many) other people ??
Who said that? Rights to kill??? Are you getting afraid they'll catch you in your bedroom while you sleep?
They have the rights to be considered as victims, because that precisely what they are, and helped out of their shitty life.
Of course they shouldn't be slave anymore, but no government in Europe have the balls to put down this mafia. Wonder why... Well, maybe because that's easier to attck the weak infected victim that is already almost dead? Maybe some other reasons in addition???

I just didn't like the tone in this thread, pointing the hookers whilst we all know here that they are the only proven victims as we speak.

Well, old man, it appears that our roles are now reversed (you were my boy the last time)?! Never heard of this Global Medical Dossier you speak of before now. [Spit]

At the end of the day, I think that the only real solution (if there is one) is to allow any bounty-hunters here to go after all the miscreants. That would mean that the governments should put a bounty on the heads of all those posing a problem. All we need to know then is how much (and in what currency) these folks are worth, and whether or not they're required to be delivered 'dead or alive' when collecting...?!

Everything else is somewhat superfluous. At this time, I'd usually insert a link to one of the old Clint Eastwood starring Spaghetti westerns, but I'm tired, and I reckon that everyone else here is by now also bored with watching those You Tube clips.

KAG

You are deliberately dragging this thread away from the original point.

Leaving aside the victim business, if the girls are HIV positive and still working, do you agree that their health status should be made public ?

Leaving aside the victim business, if the girls are HIV positive and still working, do you agree that their health status should be made public ? I'm not KAG but...

Generally-speaking, and if it helps identify any prostitutes most at risk allowing governments to help 'them out', then why not? Provided that their previous/past and current clients are also similarly identified and made public...?! After all, their clients probably represent an equal if not greater risk to 'public health' as they could infect their wives or girl-friends just as easily. Another noteworthy factor is that 80% of those who sexually abuse children commit these offences in a 'family environment' - an environment where the abuser is either a direct or close blood relative or at least very well known to the family and/or child. I don't know if there is any correlation between those who practise high-risk sexual activities and those who also abuse children. But it would not surprise me if there were...

Alright alpineskier, let's take it right to the point, here is a quote from you at the top of the thread, directly from the original point:
Alpineskier: My beef is with the last line: if the authorities had proof that the women were continuing to practice their trade whilst knowing they were HIV positive , I think it is completely right to publicise their photos. Whether condoms or not, I imagine a lot of punters would want to be informed about the HIV status of their potential sex-partner.

Well, that's a good point, as this is a public health issue here as you noted.
Even though HIV is not as deadly as before thanks to modern and efficient medecine (not the one the hookers will have access to though, not sure about the healthcare system in mafia land from eastern Europe), the potential "clients" (I don't like this word here, that's unapropiate when it involves slavery and mafia from eastern Europe) might infect in turn their wife, other hookers, other partners...

So you have a point here, and those hookers shouldn't be allowed to have any affair with anybody, I agree on that point.
Nobody wants HIV to touch more people than it already has.

However a question remains, why we think it is okay to point at those hookers, put their pic, but we don't even care to search and publish the pictures of the ones who infected them at the first place, will continue to infect other hookers, and the picture of the one forcing them to into this deadly "business"?
Is that because our society tells us those human being condamned, infected, victim, 100 times humiliated don't have any value?

It looks like because the mafia put them down, so we gave up on them.

They are not murderer, they are victims. When this notion is understood and kept in mind, then we can go ahead with the public health issue and prevent further infection.

Is that because our society tells us those human human being condamned, infected, victim, don't have any value?

As you know the answer is split and the variation of the split will depend somewhat on how wealthy the country is.

Not possible to know who infected them, but I would also accept photos of infected punters being given to prostitutes and, better than simply photos of the slave-masters, is their photo being taken by police when imprisoned.

Tricking/forcing women into prostitution is foul and disgusting and I would be happy to have heavier penalties for it ( but then I would be happier locking all criminals away for much longer :E than is usual for today's judges . )

Yes, dealing with mafia and modern slavery is part of the issue.
Because one has to be really naive to believe that when it involves Eastern Europe women coming to western Europe for basic prositution it's mafia free.

Not possible to know who infected them
I desagree.
That's possible, the motivation isn't there in Europe that's all.

Today we are only sure of 2 things:
-Those hookers have been infected, are victims, and they are going to die,
-The ones who infected them are free and will infect other women/hookers.

However a question remains, why we think it is okay to point at those hookers, put their pic, but we don't even care to search and publish the pictures of the ones who infected them at the first place, will continue to infect other hookers, and the picture of the one forcing them to into this deadly "business"?
Is that because our society tells us those human being condamned, infected, victim, 100 times humiliated don't have any value?

No, KAG, it's because these hookers are KNOWN to be carrying out their "business" DESPITE being HIV+ and are therefore KNOWINGLY putting others at risk. The person or persons who infected them may NOT know that they are infected so anything that can get these people to get themselves tested, etc, as well as anyone who has been possibly infected, has to be a good thing.

And if the person(s) who infected the hookers knew they were carrying AIDS/HIV, then they should face the same as the hookers, they should be named, their photos should be published, they should face their day in court. That is, of course, unless the source is unknown because these whores contracted HIV due to sharing hypodermics with others when they had a regular heroin fix so it was maybe passed on by some junkie who didn't know he/she was infected. You just ASSUMED that they caught HIV via sex, you forgot about the other, major, way HIV is spread and also why you see so many junkies selling themselves so they can get another fix. The actual source of their infection is unlikely to be found but at least the chances of them spreading the disease to others can be minimised.

But you are ignoring the point made at the start of this thread, the one that asks why should the "rights" of these women, their "right" to make money out of boinking any man who wishes to boink anyone, be of a greater value than the "rights" of society at large when it means more people are at risk because of these women potentially spreading HIV. That is the issue, why is warning others that these women are HIV+ a breach of these women's "human rights" and why does that supercede the "rights" of others who would not know that they could catch such a lethal disease from said hookers.

because these whores

Hellsbrink, don't you even realise your post stinks?

And yes I obviously agree and wish those prostitutes being stopped immediately by any means, don't pretend I think the opposite to justify any weird theories of yours like they got HIV without help from their "clients" and mafia happy to use them as slave.

Those women from eastern Europe controlled by mafia in western Europe don't make money killing people, they are being killed by powerfull mafia paid by infected clients who don't want to know the age of the prostitute (minor?), and their real condition (slave?).

Don't twist it around.




From Greece, eastern Europe, Russia? What a coincidence...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Map3.3Trafficking_compressed.jpg/800px-Map3.3Trafficking_compressed.jpg

KAG.

The terminology used is proper English. When used in other ways, then it is something else. So why call a spade a "manual excavation device"?


But you are still doing the same thing. You are ignoring the original point regarding the "rights" of these women whilst banging on about "mafia" and "slavery" whilst ignoring the real possibility they contracted HIV via sharing needles with other junkies. "Trafficking", "sexual slavery" and "East European mafias" may not be involved at all and, in the context of the thread, irrelevant. The point being made is that some human rights groups are putting the "rights" of these women on a higher level than the "rights" of the community at large and that is what is disturbing. After all, we are talking about something that still has no known cure so preventing the spread of it should be the priority, not protecting the identity of those with the disease who can then continue to ply their trade and potentially infect others. That is the issue, not why they became hookers, not who pimps them out, not how they contracted HIV, it is purely "why are human rights groups more concerned about the rights of these women over the rights of the community at large".

Hellsbrink:That is the issue, not why they became hookers, not who pimps them out, not how they contracted HIV

Interestingly enough you care more about clients getting HIV from prostitutes than how those prostitutes got HIV. It doesn't suprise me, that's what I felt since the begining, at least you say it frankly, we know what to expect with you. I am so sorry for you.



they contracted HIV via sharing needles with other junkies.
So convenient! Now the "clients" can only be victims and prostitute only murderer while mafia doesn't exist in your wonderfull world! Brilliant!
Russian prostitutes getting HIV because of needles but not because of what they do all day (night) long? It makes so much sense, we all believe you, we are all convinced.



There maybe a few things you seem to forget. You call a prostitute a whore, and you say this is the appropriate term to call them. You break the pprunes rules, because this word is an insult to women, even when they practice prostitution. I sometimes wonder in which world you live.
I ve got news for you: they are in fact human beings.
And there is not less shame to be a "client" than to be a prostitute.

What about the Greek ones, KAG? And how can you ASSUME they got HIV via their "mafia" bosses when the last thing these people need is someone who LOSES them money and not via some other way? After all, the actual report does state that the biggest rise in HIV cases in Greece in 2011 was through drug use and that they are linking the illegal brothels with drug use, so how can you sit there and claim that it's all the Russian Mafia's fault when any link to organised crime is not actually mentioned in the report (which you obviously did not read. :ugh:). It's also stated that the rise in cases of HIV has been 1450% in ONE YEAR in Athens alone due to the suspension of a hypo exchange scheme, meaning more junkies are sharing needles. So how can you sit there and say that sharing needles cannot possibly be the cause of these women contracting HIV when all reports, including Médicins Sans Frontières, are saying that the rise in the HIV cases has been greatest in intravenous drug users.

I am concerned about the disease being spread, and so are the Greek Government and the disease control people there. The fact that the raids on various brothels have resulted in over 1500 people calling up the authorities to ask about HIV testing shows that the publicity is doing it's job. That can only be a good thing, as well as using every and all reasonable methods to ensure that Greek prostitutes are legal and clean of disease and narcotic abuse. These women already have HIV, and can be treated for that as much as modern medicine allows. The priority is to prevent them from spreading the disease further. And since they did not stop "working" when they found out they had HIV, then they have lost their "right to privacy" as they continued to "work" illegally knowing they were HIV+. Simple as that.

What about the Greek ones, KAG? And how can you ASSUME they got HIV via their "mafia" bosses

And how about from their "clients" like most of the health studies on this matter confirms?

Ooops, sorry, I forgot, they are the good ones in your magic world, they cannot be guilty of anything, they can only be infected, cannot infect, because in the Alice wonderfull world sexually transmitted diseases can only go in one direction.
Biology is being rewritten as we speak my friends, this is marvellous.

KAG, try reading the thread again. Especially the bits where I said ANYBODY who KNOWINGLY infects someone with HIV, whether a hooker or a client, should face the same penalty. Arrest, charge, trial, conviction.

After all, it has been said more than once, in posts 16 and 28, so there is either a serious comprehension problem at your end or you are deliberately trying to goad people into saying something that means they will face the wrath of the mods as you know you cannot actually argue the point being made.

I'll settle for it being a problem with the language since English is not your "mother tongue", but you are trying to put words in my mouth despite there being more than one post stating the opposite. That kinda blows your argument out of the water.

Kag Old bean,

I have a suspicion that you and Hellsbrink actually are agreeing on much of way you write. Irrespective of whether prostitution is right or wrong, that is another topic altogether. I would like to ask you a few questions.

Would you agree that the deliberate infection of people with HIV is a bad thing - irrespective of whether the person be client, or customer?

You are aware that it is possible to become HIV positive through actions that preclude sex?

If people are deliberately infecting others should they not be stopped, or are you of the opinion that those that use prostitutes deserve to be infected?

Prostitution will never be stopped nor can it be stopped. Do you agree with that one? if not, why not?

If you agree that positive infection of other is a bad thing, how would you prevent it? I include both customers and clients in this statement.

If someone deliberately infects someone, do you feel that the person doing the infecting should be punished? If yes, how do you punish them?

Answering these might clear the air slightly.

AIDS is not a notifiable disease in the UK.

HPA - List of notifiable diseases (http://www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/InfectiousDiseases/InfectionsAZ/NotificationsOfInfectiousDiseases/ListOfNotifiableDiseases/)

Were it so then presumably a death caused by exposure to the disease on the part of another could be indictable as either murder or manslaughter?
Perhaps there should be a 100,000 signature petition requesting a parliamentary debate on the introduction of legislation to make AIDS notifiable?
That might seriously upset certain MPs at Westminster to say nothing of Peter's rainbow warriors?

Well, CC, as I said earlier there has been cases of people being jailed in the UK for not telling a potential sexual partner that they had HIV before they "made the beast with two backs", never mind taking it further to "murder" when the partner dies like they do in Canada.

UK law allows it to go through as "GBH", amongst other things like "recklessly injuring" in Scots Law, so the case for penalising someone for knowingly infecting someone, or infecting someone due to your being in a "high risk" category and therefore being likely to have HIV although you have not been diagnosed as such, has been made in the UK and you can be prosecuted and jailed for that.

Shame for those infected innocently

:ugh::ugh:

You are aware that it is possible to become HIV positive through actions that preclude sex?



indeed. many girls who resort to low grade paid for sex do so out of necessity, more often down to supporting ugly drug habits; heroin, crack, meth and trade sexual activity with anyone for money for the next fix.

this is not just third world mafia led societies but also in urban and sub-urban communities, in places like the UK too. this was very evident with the serial killing of many street girls in the east of england a couple of years back.

the higher class working girls, that work independently have a choice of who they see as clients drug dependency is less common as is violence and sexual health is more common.

the presentation that street prositution is driven by eastern european street gangs is misleading. yes, there is a significant problem with human trade and traffiking and what is in effect human slavery, but the girls and in many cases boys who are subject to this vicious trade are often the most vulnerable.

but notwithstanding, those who are fully aware of being HIV+ and deliberately and knowing engage in, not just sexual activity, but also cross contamination (sharing of needles etc) without disclosing it to to sex or drug partners are engaging in an act that is tantamount to handing someone a death sentence, and of course to those that person will come into contact with.

of course pimiping should be illegal and prostitution made legal giving the girls the choice to make their own choices without being criminalised for doing so.

what is the difference between a female that takes money from a 'punter' for a sexual act or a girlfriend that does x or y becuase her boyfriend bought her a pair of Jimmy Choo's ?

when it is legalised then sexual health choices are handed to the girls themselves and the recovery and prevention of hard drug dependency can be fought openly and with the medical support that is available rather than be driven underground and to charitable outreach units.

and of course the human traffikers.. a tarriff sentance of life with hard labour and solitary confinement, something close to what they impart on their victims.

of course, the huggy fluffs wont like it.

but notwithstanding, those who are fully aware of being HIV+ and deliberately and knowing engage in, not just sexual activity, but also cross contamination (sharing of needles etc) without disclosing it to to sex or drug partners are engaging in an act that is tantamount to handing someone a death sentence, and of course to those that person will come into contact with.Agreed, though HIV is no longer a death sentence, just a sentence to a life of ill health and expensive drugs. :(

Some countries have a legal sex trade. In every case it struggles to thrive against the illegal trade which offers better prices, flexible conditions and unprotected activity. A legal sex provider has to comply with government regulations with respect to protection and provision of services. How can they ever compete with the illegal providers that offer anything, anywhere, anytime? :( Also, they have to pay tax. :sad:

Any person who has unprotected sex with another person they don't know (and sometimes do know) is leaving themselves open to infection. Not just HIV, but hepatitis, syphilis (it's still around) and a number of other nasty diseases. Anyone who lives in the civilised world and owns a television knows this, so why the angst? You pay your money and you take your chance. :sad: Don't bleat if you engaged in an illegal or ill advised activity (compared to the more expensive and restrictive legal alternative) and came out in spots.

Have unprotected sex with someone you've just met (whether for money or Love :})? That's the risk. Catch something nasty? You were warned.
Grim Reaper [1987] - YouTube
Spread it to unwitting pesons who think you're just great and got held up at work? Pick the true victims in this story. :sad:

That said, a person who continues to engage in unsafe activities when they know they have a transferrable disease is wilfully causing harm to others. I believe that's illegal in most places, whether as GBH or otherwise. It's not right, and whatever unfortunate circumstances exist in their life doesn't make it otherwise, any more than having a hard childhood excuses driving a car drunk and injuring someone.
and of course the human traffikers.. a tarriff sentance of life with hard labour and solitary confinement, something close to what they impart on their victims.The unpalatable truth is that many girls are happy to work for easy cash. Beats grubbing up rice for a living. :sad: I see Australia was listed in the diagram as having a potential sex trade problem; while there are anecdotal stories about forced labour, nothing's been proven. What has been proven time and time again is that girls are happy to relocate from Asia to Australia (usually on student visas) and work off their bond.

It's a mutually beneficial agreement except that because they work illegally public health standards aren't enforced and the shonks who orgnanize their migration get a big wad of illegal cash. It's not a slave trade because the girls are happy to work; but it is illegal because they're working in contravention of their visas and no-one's subject to any regulations. They also steal trade from the legal brothels who frequently find themselves drowning in a sea of paperwork and government requirements.

The sex trade is often more complex than the basic historical slave trade where people were kidnapped against their will and forced to work. Looking at it in a black/white fashion does nothing to solve the problem, and it is a problem. It's a health problem and a social problem, but shouting moral values from the rooftops won't solve it. Might make people feel better, but the '8DDD Sexy Japanese Babes' will still be using their Korean student visas to capitalise on it, and the people who organized their migration will still be raking in the cash. Meanwhile, the State prostitution regulators will be doing their best to ensure that 10% of the trade comforms with basic health protection regulations and enforcing ridiculous rules devised by people who have reluctant sex twice a year.

There's an impressive knowledge of working girls being displayed on here !

Interesting map on post #29 - one of the Baltic States appears dark green.....

There's an impressive knowledge of working girls being displayed on here !

I do declare, there were times when I was so lonesome, I took some comfort there...
(Lyrics Simon & Garfunkel)

I shall always remember Daisy (a Filipino, Larnaca, Cyprus 1991). And the last of my 'adventures' with 'working girls'. Even at the age of 30 back then, too ignorant to question or be concerned about why a very pretty young girl found herself working as a hostess in a small night-club half-way across the globe? If I could go back in time, I should have taken her away from it all and married her...

not a squeek out of Slasher or me.!

I've watched this for a couple of days without saying anything, but the same thought has been going through my mind as others :

what is the difference between a female that takes money from a 'punter' for a sexual act or a girlfriend that does x or y becuase her boyfriend bought her a pair of Jimmy Choo's ?The only difference is that the 'professional' is more likely to be careful about her own health and by extension (oh sorry for the pun) that of her clients. She probably has regular checks and screenings and is probably far more aware of the risks and the warning signs. Of course at the lower end of the scale, the crackheads and so on, that doesn't apply. They neither know nor care what their HIV or other disease status is.

Which is why sleeping with crackheads is never a terribly good idea, whether for payment or otherwise.
There's an impressive knowledge of working girls being displayed on here !
Hookers have friends, same as most people do. It's just another industry.

Unfortunately though, ridiculous regulations and government apathy (and sometimes outright hostility when they're trying to score the Wowser vote :rolleyes:) means that in most places the unregulated illegal trade is far bigger and far more profitable. This leads to an increased disease risk to the community, increased risk of violence to the girls and a greater chance that workers (and sometimes customers) will be exploited; all so the government can pat itself on the back, be sure of the Family Value vote and hope that the problem magically goes away. :hmm:

I should have taken her away from it all and married her...


Might look a bit rough by now though, airship?!;)

Germany used to have it about right, regular, compulsory medical checks, fail a medical and lose your licence, no 'House' allowed to employ you. (They also have to pay tax!).

Do they have parallel black market industry as well?

No, I'll check it out. Thanks.

Of course they do Worrals. Ever seen Nightshift? Now THAT'S
the way to run a good underground black market bonk shop!

p2sjC37Vmbo

I sincerely don't wish to come across as arrogant, but I've never been attracted to, nor have I ever forked over to the girls for sale I have come across in my worldwide travels.

Proud, as I am, of my achievements, personna, personality, kindness, virtue, and many other attractives, I have met my share of beautiful women and ultimately secured the hand of the most beautiful, and kindest, I ever met - a hand which I continue to firmly hold today, 17 years later. I may have helped her along, but she SAVED me, and blessed I am.

Love and trust shared, treasured, respected, honored and valued - by both in the partnership - is the greatest treasure we can have in life. Of this I am quite certain.

Lemme guess BA its her birthday or your anniversary and you
forgot to give her a prezzy, so you're going to show your post
to her in the slim hope of regaining some brownie points! ;)

crippen wrote: not a squeek out of Slasher or me.! I believe I know what you're saying, 'where you're coming from' etc. Can't / won't go into it now, perhaps another time. Meanwhile, 'long life and happiness' to you... :ok: