Airbus 320 type rating & 500 hours of Line training Rate of success??

[joaocastro]

Dear colleagues,

I would like to know if there is someone on this forum, that has applied or knows someone that applied for the the Airbus 320 Type rating and line training.

What I really want to know is the rate of success for candidates that have less than 1000 hours or even 1500 hours, that are know working in an airline company.

In my case for example I graduated as a pilot last year, and currently I have 240 hours total time. I also know that after completing this program my chances increase a lot. Believe me, I'm completely against paying to fly, but without spending more money I will never start flying.

I know some people that had less hours than me that after completing the Airbus program were able to get a job.

I want to know in general if it is a safe bet, the risk is always present, but this will be my last chance of financing a type rating. I'm afraid if I invest in a turbo prop I may not get the chance to pay a jet qualification later.

All comments are welcome.

Regards, and the best of luck to all of us.

[joaocastro]

Cowhorse,

It's ok I was expecting that kind of reply. As long as they are useful I don´t mind at all.
Guarantees today, well I guess today nothing is guaranteed.

But of course that I'm not going to invest in something this big based in a few comments. I started my research more intensely 6 months ago, Boeing, Airbus and turbo props I have seen all there is for these types of aircraft. I made that question because I really would like to know the rate of success of those applicacants for the A320.

Well I guess that waiting for a job contract to fall on my lap with my current experience will be harder to find. Or to pay for a flight instructor rating so I can fly a Cessna 150, I'm pretty sure that I wont be flying commercially very soon.

[joaocastro]

Zondaracer,

If you have better ideas for people with my current experience please share, we would appreciate.

Regards

[dudubrdx]

Hi Joao,

Just as I pointed out to you in an earlier pm, this situation IS NOT YOUR FAULT.
It is happening to a lot of us out there, and we are not the only ones, I have lawyer friends who have been incapable of getting a job in 3-4 years.

The market is this way, you are not to blame. Don't think you are a bad pilot, bad CV writer or don't have the right mind set-up. It's just not the moment. Look at all the other comments which sound like this one: " Get a job, any job, and stay current...."

[The Lead Sparrow]

Here is the deal as I have been informed.
After you have spent your hard earned £60'000 to get your CPL/IR you hand over another £25'000 to a middle man for the A320 TR, then another
£30'000 for you line training. This line training is done by some dubious airline which could be anywhere in Europe. Don't worry they will put you up in a hotel, wait for it, breakfast is included. Hopefully you will get this all done within six months as there isn't any salary during this time. Now you see why the breakfast is important! You then get passed onto an agency if nothing goes wrong, volcanos, oil price spikes etc. The agency then place you with the low cost carrier. Any questions class?

[redsnail]

Bom Dia Joao,
A quick question, what have you done to find employment? I'm not having a go, just want to know where you have looked, who've you spoken to etc.
Do you have the ability to change locations?

[zondaracer]

Joao,

I don't know many guys who have paid for a type rating and paid for line training. Of the guys who I know who have done it, the ones who got jobs were the ones who did it back in 2007, and those airlines were hiring guys without time on type anyway.

I know some guys who got jobs recently (as in within the past 9 months) without a type rating before applying. For some of them, the type rating was paid for by the employer, and some of them they had to self sponsor a type rating after getting hired. None of them paid for a type rating + line training. They got the jobs because who they know. They were also all active flight instructors with the exception of one, and even he had previously been a flight instructor.

[SloppyJoe]

What is wrong with people. One guy who replied used his mate getting into Wizzair as an example of success. The starting salary as an FO with them is about Euro 1000 a month. Why are people accepting this s***t, have some self respect.

[_mazz_]

Cause 1000E/month is better than P2F :}

[joaocastro]

Does anyone knows how is the market for pilots with the Airbus 320 type rating + 500 hours on type, and less than 1000 hours total time is??

[eaglesnest1972]

with a type on the 320 and 700hrs TT (500hrs on the 320) you can get good opportunities but only outside Europe (far east/asia). Too many rated drivers waiting on the line in EU.
All the best.

[mutt]

with a type on the 320 and 700hrs TT (500hrs on the 320) you can get good opportunities but only outside Europe (far east/asia). I'm curious as I haven't seen any jobs posted with that low level of experience, can you tell me which company airline you are talking about?

[joaocastro]

If I had to spend a few years outside Europe building up my total time I wouldn´t mind at all. The problem is that I don´t have any guarantees except if I have a program like eagle jet has for the Boeing pilots, and even that is not guaranteed.

I realy need some good advises on this topic,

regards

[eaglesnest1972]

As far as i know there is a number of carriers accepting low timers on the 320 in Asia right now.
With 500 hrs on type you can also have access to the hold pool of Easy with flexy crew, for example...
Btw, nothing is really guaranteed in this industry right now and i think that occasions are to be found by yourself (i.e. do the type and take your CV personally to the HR guys).
If you want to do it go for it.
Organize yourself for the worst case scenario and see what comes up after you're done. Now you can only make assumptions...

Mutt, just an example, take it as it is:

Opportunity: Asiana Airlines A320 First Officers - Rishworth Aviation (http://www.rishworthaviation.com/Opportunity/725/asiana-airlines-a320-first-officers.aspx)

just my 2 cents.

[joaocastro]

Eagle,

Fist of all I want to tank you for your comment.

I've seen that many companies ( I risk to say 90%) only request 500h on type, but my main concern is my total time. After the line training I will have 740 hours more or less.

I have also been told that the companies pay more attention to the hours on type than the total time, and they hire pilots with this amount of experience (Less than 1000h).

Do you know if this is true?

If it would I guess that they wouldn't ask for 1000 hours or 1500 hours total time.

[eaglesnest1972]

Hello Joao,

i am more or less in your situation.
I am not used to tell to others what they would like to hear so i will be straight forward, take it as it is please.
If you want to fly, do everything it is in your possibilities to achieve your goals.
Do it. period.
Do not look for answers inside forums. A forum is good for a general assessment but the final decision is yours.
If you have doubts stop before making a mistake.
If you look for a job that gives you money and stability look somewhere else.
Do not question yourself about hours, age, money etc.
Things in aviation change very quickly.
Flying remains first of all a passion, if you have to suffer its not worth.
I saw 300 hrs TT guys jumping on a 767 as first assignment, i see everyday pilots with 5000 TT on the MD80 looking for a job in Africa because no one is interested to them because of the type they fly (maximum respect for these fellow pilots).
So...
Prepare yourself in the way you think its better for you, make yourself competitive into this jungle and play your cards, possibly with a plan B ready to be put in force.
Forget to work in Europe (unless you know someone) for the next years.
You have to pack your stuff and move east, this is my opinion and probably what i will do in the very next future.
Play your cards. But with a wise approach.

Best:ok:

[joaocastro]

Eagle, once again tank you for the advise. It's always good to have new ideas and perspectives.

Wish you the best, and I hope we can all meet when cruising the skies.

Regards

[AlexanderH]

There are a number of carriers in Asia who, although they might ask for 1000TT and 500 on type, will consider an application with under 1000TT as long as you have the 500 on type.

It is a risk to just hope to get something with 750TT and 500 on type but then again, this industry is just one big gamble.

[Ronand]

I can only speak from experience, I personally know a lot of people who did the p2f scheme with Lionair on the 737ng and also some on Airbus in Tunesia.
Despite of a lot of people saying how stupid they are for paying to work in 3rd world countries..... All of them now have airline jobs some of them are even flying the 777 now and making serious bucks.
Now the situation is a bit worse then lets say 2 years ago, as currently most airlines want 1500TT and 500 hrs on type for F/O jobs but I would say if you are going for the Linetraining your chances of getting a job afterwards will be arround 70%, depending on luck mainly....

[eaglesnest1972]

Exactly...its a matter of luck and being in the right place at the right moment...70% its a fair percentage anyway.
If you move east chances increase of course, even with less than 1000TT (but always rated with time on type).
Thats the market...

[Balticsea]

Thanks for a good conversation here, guys! I'm in the very same boat as Joao, almost exactly the same hours too, and currently seriously thinking of that same package, but probably on Boeing. I wouldn't mind relocating either! Hope to see you in the skies, Joao! :ok:

[Robindevlieger]

perhaps this is something for guys with a rating and hours on type.

Citilink A320 Captain / First Officer (rated with zero hours accepted)-Latest Pilot Jobs-Latest Pilot Jobs (http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/1706.html)

[amaj9090]

Hi everyone, I already have my CPL and IR type rating with 281 flying hours. Am looking for an airlineswhich can give me a line training with type rating
Now days most of the Airlines requests between 300-500 jet flying hours. So please if anyonecan give me the best information I’ll be appreciated
Tanks

Best regards and good luck everyone

[mutt]

amaj9090, just wait a month until GACA announce which airlines are being granted Saudi operating licenses, they will be required to satisfy saudiization quotas, so they should have opportunities for saudi nationals. You could also approach emirairlines.com as they should be the first one in the air :ok:

[AlexanderH]

Citilink will charge a fee for those 0 hour A320 rated pilots to start their line training.

[syukri]

Any idea how much it might be? Because I am genuinely considering it..

[AlexanderH]

The final amount has not been decided just yet. I would expect current rates such as the EJ programme.

[IRS ALIGN]

Apparently they have already had well over a thousand applications.

[moejazz]

Dear Eagle nest I just want to take your advise,i will soon go to get my training for the CPL license in USA at DELTAQUALIFLIGHT ACDEMY and i will be glad to get your guidance.
what do you suggest after completing and getting my license.
what are the steps to take,please advise me with more information.
and i am interested to do the A320 or B737.
THANK YOU.

[Sad11]

just one question ,if i do type rating on Airbus320,can i work on any other type of Airbus or i must do the same type that airlines have?
Please reply

[screwit]

delta will take all your money...
you will be unemployed.

Buy line rating and line training..... ah ah.... still no job.

[screwit]

A320 cover 318 to 321

[737RIDE]

Now days most of the Airlines requests between 300-500 jet flying hours


Im sorry mate but are talking about 3 years ago... i can tell you about people with 2500 737 time and no interviews anywere....

perhaps this is something for guys with a rating and hours on type.


Pt Avia training ... P2F they are hiring only P2F pilots and you have to buy the TR from them as well... good dela for The TRTO and for the provider... scam for you ..

[Phenom100]

Citilink currently have 4 slots available, but you will need to part with $45k.

[prg737]

Stop p2f! This is killing your own future!

There is not enough job for rated and experienced pilots on the market right now!

If you pay for flying, you will take away a pilot's job and assure that the airline will not hire anybody but get the money of more and more daydreamer's. Right hand seat changes from cost to revenue generator.
Think and Stop!

You say there is no other opportunity? Do something else.

[IRS ALIGN]

Seriously?!?! :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :D

Very well done. Never seen a post like yours before.

[joaocastro]

IRS.. Do you have any magic solutions???

I've spend 60K (Bank loan) in my Pilot's license, because I live in a :mad: Country that has no vacancies for the Air force. I wasn´t even able to apply, because all of sudden they decided to suspend all of the available slots they had.

Before that I've spent two years of my life studding math so I could get a good grade.

During the time I was in my flight school, I had to move to the main land and that implied extra costs (House rent, meals and transportation) for almost two and a half years.

This has not been an easy walk so far, and I graduated a year and half ago.

Should I quit??? Yea right..

Do you think I like to pay in order to get a job??

Should I just sit and wait for an opportunity, without making any kind of research???

Well if you think that you don´t deserve to be pilot..

Time is clicking, the proficiency is going away..

By the time that the airlines will accept low hour pilots again, with no Type rating and no hours on type, I should be wearing a Cain. And this, if they will ever do..

If you are not going to help, don't waist my :mad:.. time.

I hate the idea of P2F, I also know the effort it takes, and I am not here to spend more $$ to just fly 500 hours.

My purpose here, is to gather information so I can make a wise decision.

Stopping is dying..

[Bealzebub]

A word of caution.

I cannot tell you how all airlines carry out their screening and recruitment, but I can tell you that with many companies there are certain "names" that raise a "red flag"! There are plenty of people with 500 hours of type experience (give or take a bit,) and it is not so much the quantity of that experience at this level, rather than the quality of it.

If an applicant with minimum time on type is coming from an established "quality" operator, it may well be because they have been laid off, or are looking for a more stable career path. There are plenty of such applicants, and coupled with the supply from other sources, quality airlines can very easily be selective in the background requirements of such applicants.

There is no price premium to the airline, and the quality of the applicants background training will almost always be a prime factor in shortlisting for interview. Few airlines are likely to be interested in buying in potential problems, or recruiting relatively inexperienced pilots with "dubious" or unrecognised backgrounds.

500 hours is often (with a degree of flexibility,) a minimum level of relevant experience, rather than a magic number. In these types of aircraft it is often acquired in less than a year of employment. It always needs to be obvious to the recruitment team why an applicant is presenting themselves with less than a year with another employer. Sometimes the reasons are obvious and understandable. Other times it may be because the employer wasn't an employer at all, or because of some other problem that is unlikely to warrant wasting any further time on.

It is a buyers market. The quality buyers are looking for quality applicants. They have a number of sources of supply, and nearly all of them are overstocked. The CV therefore needs to look attractive and desirable. "Red flags" to be avoided.

As I stated at the start of this post, I cannot tell you how each and every company sets their own standards, so there may be some mileage in this route, however I would be very cautious.

[dudubrdx]

Joao what you just wrote reminds me so much of what I told you 6 months or more ago, when you were looking at the possibility of going for P2F with Farnair.
Yes, you've been waiting for a break for 18 months now, yes you have a 60K bank loan, yes instructing doesn't pay well, yes you want to be on an Airbus-boeing, and YES, nobody reply's to the hundred of CVs you've sent, but it's not your FAULT, it's nothing personal. It's jst how the market is right now. Nobody get's a break in Europe, except the Ryanair/Easyjet cadets, who btw are killing it for the others.
There's not much to do but to wait, stay current, try different local companies and see if you can get a break there.

[joaocastro]

Bealzebub and dudubrdx Tanks for the reply. Believe me what I want is to to start my career, Airbus, Boeing, turbo prop that's not the most important to me right now. Like I said before, my purpose is to gather information.
Once again tanks for the Info.

[CY333]

I love it when you apply somewhere and they return your email saying they have no places but are more than happy to offer you line training :D

[mavrik777]

well citilink has o hrs 500hrs line trainning u have to pay about 50k usd for that

[Tekor Bali]

Still with pay to fly? Just stop it and try a normal job.
That's all

[CGaviator]

Capricious is what I call to these rich dady kids that wants to fly a shiny jet whatever the cost!
I would say more .. lack of intelligence and common sense to see that the Pilot Market jobs are full and there´s no jobs on globe for low timers, but P2F guys insist like babies crying!
Guys like you are destroing this profession and make me vomit!

[737RIDE]

Dear jaocastro

I'm not going to tell you do it or not, i'm going to tell you that if you're looking for an answer this forum or any other it's really the wrong place to look for it .... i did find my answer in this way and i did the biggest mistake of my life immediately after... here you will find a discrete number of people (TRTO, Agencies, flying schools) direcly interested in getting people like you and me involved in their scam , they will feed your your burning dream with plenty of gasoline talking about " THE GREAT PILOT SHORTAGE " , great working opportunities after 500LT, 777 employed after 500LT, maybe true or maybe you will end up like me and many other Pilots ( i personally know) the don't even have the courage to loose their face comeing here to tell the ugly truth...

I'm currently empolyed in asia from 3 years in a very expensive 737 Line training program , i've direct experience , please feel free to ask anything but don't post me in private like many others are doing , ask me here where anybody can read .....

I'm personally trying to convince some of my collegues to come here at least 20 minutes aevery day ( not easy to find 20 minutes when you fly 110 hours a month ) and write about their experience, so it can become an even fight against this scammy no soul Liars !!

[cgwhitemonk11]

I applaud the post above trying to lift the lid on the reality of line training programs. I made a BIG mistake 3 years ago by going and getting a jet rating without any gaurantee's of a job... I was naive and stupid and fully regret it.

But I am ok now, why? Because I realized my mistake. Alot of people throw good money after bad money and feel 'but I've just wasted money on a rating! If I don't throw another 50,000 euro at it then its useless!!'

But it is already useless, unless things change, throwing away the rest of your money won't change that. People will always know you are one of the guys who helped destroy the T&C's for this profession and it will follow you like a bad smell for the rest of your career.

And another thing does anyone actually realize how much money 50,000 euro is? Living a normal lifestyle it will take years to pay that off, even if you do get the 777 job they promise you.... :E

Personally I know several people who disagree with me and are currently in the middle of line training programs, mostly unhappy, but will defend there decisions to the end...

[joaocastro]

737 Ride,

First of all tank you for the reply, it's good to have an honest comment like yours. I know that this is a very competitive profession, and hardly we see someone sharing the experiences they had.

I am aware of the 737 program in Asia, and actually there are a few questions I would like to ask you if you don´t mind.

The first one has to do with the agency that you have made contact to provide you with this program.

Have you applied trough Eagle Jet or Falcon aviation?

What do you think it would be the best solution?

I have read some information about these two agencies, but establishing contact with some one that currently is in the program it's different.


A few other questions I would like to ask you, has to do with the living costs in Jakarta. This includes rent, meals and transportation.

Did the company helped you finding an apartment or house before you arrived at Jakarta, or you had to do everything by yourself?

How much is an average rent in Jakarta?

I know that it will vary on weather it is a house or an apartment and the place where it is located. But in a situation like mine, I need to stay close to the airport or the airline company location.

Can you tell me what is your approximate cost in rent?

How have you solved the transportation issue? The airline company provides transportation for it's pilots?

I would like to ask you one more thing, that has to do with the "waiting period" some people say that they have spent a few months to complete the ground school and getting they're licenses ready.

Do you know what is the average waiting time? I know that every case is different, but some people wait less than others.

I am asking you all of these questions, so I can make a good judgement of how much money I will need.


If you have the time, I would appreciate your help with these questions.

[kolob666]

No real professionals start at the apex of their chosen field. Why should aviation be any different? 200 hr pilots should not start out their careers so close to the highest level attainable in their career path.
One should start a career in aviation knowing it will require some hard work in some poor conditions for a considerable amount of time before attaining the required level of experience and COMPETENCE, to reach the final goal.
People that circumvent the process cheapen the industry as a whole and bring only disdain on themselves.
There are plenty of turboprop jobs around where they will actually pay you to fly. Now you might have to move out of mum and dads house, maybe even to another country, but at least it will be a respectable job you are doing not an expensive hobby that in the long run will ensure you get payed less. Don't be so short sighted.
I've recently heard or companies that are implementing pay to upgrade to captain. Pathetic.
My days flying small planes were the most fun and provided the best learning experiences of my career. P2F is not looked on favorably by me nor any of my peers. Eventually many of us who came up the old way will be in management positions and I don't think those with P2F backgrounds will fare too well.

[737RIDE]

Dear, cgwhitemonk11

Yes you lost your money but you've been smarter than any of us , i spent almost twice the money you lost hopeing in a better future that did not came, after the last pay cut and after i heard my son calling my father Daddy ( my family is leeving with my parents becouse i can not affort the rent for them ) i've realized that i'm loosing my life so , don't be shy my friend , you did the right thing screwing up this BS.



Personally I know several people who disagree with me and are currently in
the middle of line training programs, mostly unhappy, but will defend there
decisions to the end...


Yes, it's a kind of Psycological reaction, kind of stoccolma sindrome where you love your kidnapper !! I was like that as well but now... after 3 years that banks are continously knocking my door as they want money back, my father feeding my family, i'm a pubblic failure , i can not hide anymore.... so here i am....

[737RIDE]

Dear joaocastro



I have read some information about these two agencies, but establishing
contact with some one that currently is in the program it's different


Sorry but i can not help you here, i see lots of cadets comeing from indian MSD as well but i don't know how to contact any agency.



Did the company helped you finding an apartment or house before you arrived
at Jakarta, or you had to do everything by yourself?


you will deal everithing by yourself, local agencies speak english



How much is an average rent in Jakarta?


Good solution is Serpong, one hour motorway south the airport, 3 bedroom house fully furnished in a good cluster is about 12000 euros a year ( contract are not less than 1 year in serpong ) , best solution is Central Park complex in west Jakarta, 30 minutes from the airport (no traffic of course), 3 beedrom is approx 17000 euros a year but very nice place and you can get a six months contract with some agencies, Thamrin city in Jakarta Centre is a little bit cheaper but crazy traffic to go there, sometimes 2 hours stuck in the traffic when you come back from the AIRPORT !!
I personally share an apartament with another Pilot, all inclusive ( electricity, water, paytv and crapy internet) we share about 1000 euros a month but is really a decent place.

you can find a lot of cheaper accomodations in jakarta but you really have to be carefull where you go to live , this place can be dirty far over your expectations ....

How have you solved the transportation issue? The airline company provides
transportation for it's pilots?


Transport is not a total crap, 40% is ok, 30% is late , 30% does not come at all so you take the taxy to go work.
when you finish working you have to wait for a driver ( captains, local FO and sometimes even Flight attendands get trasport before expats of course ) but usually i wait no more than 40 minutes....

From January with the new contract no transport anymore :mad:, all the expat FO (not the locals of course) will have to moove in Ballaraja !! (a complex about 1 hour and 30 minutes east of the airport ) the complex is massive, divided in male and female area, will take all The expats FO, Flight attendands , manteniance, ramp and office workers, busses every hour day and night for the airport, you'll have to sign every time you go out or you get in so they will know exattly witch door to knock to wake you up and send you at work when they need....
Sounds really in the chinese Lionair owner stile, work 25 hours per day....



Do you know what is the average waiting time? I know that every case is
different, but some people wait less than others.



I don't know exatly about time after application, i heardis about 6 months to come in jakarta, after you're in jakarta it can vary a lot, you could start after 5 months or after 8, everyone ha different problems and different storyes (i was Grounded more than one month waiting for my yearly license verification as the demand was very high ), last bathc did not start ground school after 2 months, every line training captain has 2 trainee in the cockpit, now i see the sistem is really saturated of wannable FO , it will be better maybe next year, and anyway when the glass is so full they cut a lot on the simulator , i heard a lot of them don't pass the checkride as the standards are now very high !!

What do you think it would be the best solution?


I really have no idea my friend, i wish i could answer this question to myself as well, i think the autorities have to stop this, FAA in America has now a kind of protection against agencies an flight schools speculations, 1500 for the atp and for passenger transport, so you estabilish again the natural order of things, i heard o lot in US going for regional after beeing flight instructors an upgrade for a major airline after some experience without pay anithing !! not even the type rating, i'm not sure about this , but i think once again the Americans are doing the right thing.... i hope JAA will copy and paste as well....

Please feel free to ask more...

[737RIDE]

Dear Kolo666



No real professionals start at the apex of their chosen field. Why should
aviation be any different? 200 hr pilots should not start out their careers so
close to the highest level attainable in their career path.

Icame to this LT program after some years of instruction in US, mainly MEP and more than 1000 hours, the only way to upgrade was to pay or being lucky enough to get in RyanAir, but apparently i was to experienced for them.... as i'm now too experienced for them and many other airlines....



I've recently heard or companies that are implementing pay to upgrade to
captain. Pathetic.


i'm afraid is true, many Capatains pay EagleJet to get a job, they don't talk on PPRUNE , i met them here, some wants to upgrade , other out from the market for couple of years for any reason so no current anymore and you have to pay again....

The only good deal is for LT captains , they get good money and there is shortage at the moment, so again , the ones that get the better deal are those that didn't pay any training or any agency, they did get everithing for free and still they make money over us.....

There are plenty of turboprop jobs around where they will actually pay you to fly.


This is actually true, i'm invited for an interview in europe for a position to fly Jetstream , looks ok, salary and conditions are better that what i have now, i'm seriously considering to giveup the 737 , the problem is if i don't fly it for 6 months there will be no way in the future to get in the 737 again unless i pay again.... and anyway i can not find the time to go for the interview, next time i'm in europe i would really like to see my kids again....

[cgwhitemonk11]

contact us (http://www.flyjetstream.co.za/contact_us2)

737 are these guys the ones you were talking about? I cant seem to find another Jetstream...

I would love a turbo-prop job but I don't think they are as easy to get as people make out, with only 850tt anyway, im banking on my options improving once im over the 1000 mark next year.

Aside from the morals and rights are wrongs of the whole thing, if im not mistaken you will have at least 1500 hrs with 500 on type by the time you are finished, surely more doors will open for you then?

Also if it is of interest to anyone I know Wizz air have many open days scheduled in London soon for A320 TR guys with no hours on type but over 1000tt.

[Captain-Random]

Maybe he means... British Aerospace Jetstream 41 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_Jetstream_41)

[billboard]

I have enjoyed reading your posts bud. Nice work!:ok:

Sorry but i can not help you here, i see lots of cadets comeing from indian MSD as well but i don't know how to contact any agency.

Really?? A lot of cadets eh? I have heard of a lot of these guys not making it past the sim checks. I am not surprised though. The two guys i know who went for gigs at Lion and Sriwijaya would any day struggle to make it past an airline sim check.

No offence but when i think about the quality of guys going for these schemes, i wonder if flying a jet requires much skill at all. Or maybe an accident is waiting to happen?! Anyways, till a couple of months back, the people from MSD and Glorietta were contacting me regularly, offering a "job" in Indonesia. All they got in reply was a stiff middle finger. "Passion for flying" and all those delusions sound good but i need to make money and not keep spending it, especially the money that i did not earn or do not have.

Yes, it's a kind of Psycological reaction, kind of stoccolma sindrome where you love your kidnapper !! I was like that as well but now... after 3 years that banks are continously knocking my door as they want money back, my father feeding my family, i'm a pubblic failure , i can not hide anymore.... so here i am....

From what i have observed, it is just an itch. Got a license but no job......got to do something..........can't think straight...........insecure about what the people around you will think if you quit. And whats worse is that the more money in your pocket, the more itchy it gets:E After you give in to this itch and spend more(good money after bad) to get a T/R, the itch turns into pain.

Just wanted to think aloud. Thank you for bearing with me.:)

[kolob666]

Entry prop jobs, look in Asia Africa and the Caribbean.
Entry level jet jobs look in Asia
There are still decent companies out there that won't turn you into a whore.
I know a handful of guys that just recently went from small turboprops onto heavy jets, they got their asses bonded heavily but they didn't go out of pocket for it. They did it right and put in their time.
Simple as that, if there aren't any jobs when you are looking stay in the job you have and wait it out.
Don't cheat your peers and take money out of your own pocket.
There is no other possible outcome from P2F than the lowering of terms and conditions across the board, it will come back to bite you, and all of us for that matter.

[737RIDE]

737 are these guys the ones you were talking about? I cant seem to find
another Jetstream...




I'm sorry my friend , i had the info from a guy that told to keep it for myself .

I have enjoyed reading your posts bud. Nice work!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Tanks buddy , yes , actually those from msd are those that have the biggest problems , basically they do a FAA type rating that is much more less than the JAA one

just few days agò i guy i know didn't manage to renew the contract with Lionair , they told him ( via e-mail ) " we are not interested to extend your contract "
so he went personally to ask why and the answer was :
" becouse we are not interested !!! "
so he told him :
" how is it possible? if you are still recruiting FO from the Agencies and there are plenty of FO waiting for company check or to start line training means you need FO !!!!"
After this question he became really pissed and he asked him to live the office ....

Jesus ... what's appening in this world...

[330airbus]

Personally this is what I think.
Aviation today is not what it used to be back then, so for everyone that keeps saying "it shouldn't be any different than any other job", or it shouldn't be done that way, what not, is total bull.
Aviation is a game of luck, OR a rich man's game, that is all.
The number of times I've seen guys that have very poor knowledge and don't deserve the right hand seat is countless, yet they still sit there, and it is what it is.

I know so many guys that went through p2f schemes and now are working regular jobs, what's the problem?
Some of you speak of bush flying, Or ATRs, etc. as if the jobs in Africa are all stacked up. Friend of mine couldn't land a job in Africa in 4 years so far.

If your dream job is to fly, and you have the money, p2F now, fly as a job later.
I'd do it if I had to. Else you won't have a job, and don't forget many others ARE willing to p2f anyway.
Soon there won't be enough p2f opportunities either.

Good Luck

[air camper]

330airbus

you are right I see many people which they have no idea how the aircraft is fly ..and the job it self she still waiting for them right now ...

aviation is the function of cantacts just cantacts :\:\:\:\

No fair in aviation

but please tell me about those guys wihch they done p2f schemes ...and they still no jobs right now why ???

[TMReed]

Good thread, Certainly reinforced my belief that I should not spend money on line-training without a promise of an actual job.

Finished my Pilot training almost a year ago and have been unable to get any pilot related work.

[Wolf_luk]

Hi Guys

Very good thread.
I'm in same position as most of you, I have my CPL IR, and what now?
My advantage (I think) is work in aviation as mechanic, and next step will be AML, just to have some other option to pay the bills, as the market in not really good for us.
Other think is get work with airlines, any kind of it, cabin crew, ground staff, check in, etc. and from time to time airlines do internal recruitment for flight crews, like easy jet recently, basic CPL was enough plus £5000 for rest of the training and of course bond for few years, but it is still decent job and not really p2f.
Just if somebody is interested BA will be doing recruiting for mechanics next year, no experience was necessary, at least it wasn't this year.
Best of luck, and hope we all find our dream jobs.

[Skydive007]

Hello Guys

I don't believe in paying for flying that'd absurd. I notice most of the people here are with or without jet rating and hours of type looking to work right away in a reputed company with high salary,of course that's every pilots dream. But the truth is its not possible, and now civil ink is charging 50K for a job. What's a joke.

Why do people look for jet right away why not a TP build your hours earn money and look for opportunity. I know there are plenty of companies looking for TP pilots like dash, ATR etc with very good pay. With the latest Q400 and ATR 600 out in the market it's almost in fact pays higher in certain company than jets. I know lot of short haul companies have ordered these turbo props and canceling their A320/737 for shot hops, fuel pricing high European crisis, end of the day it's all about money.

My point is there are lot of opportunity around the world but expand your search don't only focus on A320 A320 737 737 or A320 with Zero hours. Take anything Thats offered and climb the ladder.

Stop paying for line training. At the rate tourism and business is heading save what you have and more..

Good luck

[Aerodramaticist]

I would fly a :mad: motor glider or drop prachute jumpers if someone would pay me for it. The local sight seeing companies don´t even take me for free so that i can at least sit in a cockpit scratching my balls. :ugh:

[Superpilot]

I know there are plenty of companies looking for TP pilots like dash, ATR etc with very good pay.

Oh yeah? Where?

Skydive I'm afraid you know very little about the industry. There are and will always be 10 x more jet (A320, 737, E-Jet) jobs than Turboprop jobs. Stop telling people what we would all like to be true and tell them the reality of it. The market has changed, the new norm is for people to pay for ratings and in extreme cases hours on type. Unless you're an airline selected cadet, that is the best way to get a job these days and it applies for the few turboprop jobs out there too. Trust me, I know as I was a wannabe for 12 years (since PPL) and 4 years (since CPL). I found that out the hard way like hundreds of others.

[Journey Man]

The market has changed, the new norm is for people to pay for ratings and in extreme cases hours on type.

That was the "new norm", now any airline wanting to survive will want the revenue stream. Speculative SSTRs always were a risk, now they're toxic.

[truckflyer]

Yes the market has changed, because there are too many fools with more money than brain (mostly not even their own money, but mummies and daddies money)

Now the airlines have seen this, and thought let's just screw them all! If all refused to follow the airlines mantra, they airlines would need re-consider their recruitment and TC's!

It all ends up becoming "The Prisoners Dilemma!" which is an example of a game analysed in game theory that shows why two individuals might not cooperate, even if it appears that it is in their best interests to do so.

The truth today, is that most of you will not do what is best for you / us as a group, but go for achieving the best possible result for yourself! However this attitude means everybody looses, well everybody except the airlines!

[IXUXU]

Market forces? yeah sure...:rolleyes:

That´s why the Qatar minimum requirements went down. And I´m not saying that such thing as "market forces" doesn´t exist... offer and demand...that´s true.
If I wanna sell a bag of apples for, let´s say, 1000 $, and there are people willing and eager to buy...I will maintain the price or even try to increase it...
But if no one buys my stock....I´m pretty sure you know what I´m going to do, right? It happens all the time...but in the pilot´s market. Plenty of people willing to pay in order to find a shortcut...

If nobody pays, the airlines will hire anyway. No options but letting aircrafts grounded, period.

[veetwo]

To be honest, the only way to stop the rot is to convince people never to embark on the ATPL training in the first place. Once you've spent the £100,000 you're unlikely to stop spending.

I still can't quite get over the fact that with terms and conditions on the slide so rapidly, herds and herds of people are still committing to pilot training. I'll readily admit I was very very lucky and got a jet job pretty much straight away on decent terms, type rating paid for etc and am now in a stable job on a good contract. However 7 years later I am still saddled with a huge debt and hopelessly unable to get a mortgage because of it, as I will be for several years yet. Did I really appreciate just how much debt I was taking on and the consequences? Probably not.

There needs to be greater education about the state of the industry and how it will eventually affect your chances of a mortgage/decent retirement income/decent lifestyle. These are the big issues which linger long after the thrill of setting TOGA for the first time has faded.

There's a temptation to think that you can just "do your time" in some crappy outfit before moving on to the bigger airlines. There are two problems with this. First, not everyone can possibly get a job with a 'proper' outfit - there are too many people trying. Some will continue to be shafted long term. Second, by "doing your time" you are effectively contributing to the downfall of your preferred future employer. P2F is just an extension of this and will eventually result in unpaid internships or worse.

There are plenty of people screaming about how great it is to be an airline pilot - namely the flying schools and the airlines themselves. Both keen to sell the profession to enthusiastic young boys and girls who they know will pay a fortune and work for very little. There are not nearly enough dissenting voices telling the true story - outside of these hallowed walls that is.

[truckflyer]

veetwo -

Very true what you say, now I have avoided getting into debts for the flying, but it really does not add up anymore.

However if you do try to tell people another story than the one they have been told in those glossy flight brochures, the dream they are still holding on to, is being shot to pieces, by the money they are themselves willing to spend, to try to get an advantage and a job!

Let's get it straight, many pilot's who already have the golden-lifestyle have themselves jumped on the gravy train, so for them it is in their self-interest to continue feeding the dream!

When I look at guys at my company, with the level of experience they have on type, I ask myself, how come they still here?
The reason my friends is blowing in the wind, it's cash from mummies/daddies making sure some wannabes rather get the slave contract instead of the people with the experience!

Here is the nature of business, when they know you are willing to accept bad TC's from the start, this does not stop, of course a few will manage to escape to some of the better companies, but most who do manage to get in, will be working their A's off for peanuts, because that's what you get, monkey's, when you pay peanuts!

[truckflyer]

Superpilot - "if an individual doesn't follow this herd mentality then he gets left behind as is the case for so many today"

This is the problem today, most will be left behind, that market can nowhere sustain the number of pilots trained versus pilot employed!

If you P2F, how are you able to feed any of your own families mouths?
During my training with my company, there was 2 guys who had over 300 hours on type, both of them had done P2F - personally I would have felt extremely embarrassed to have to admit this fact in front of seasoned and new crew, yes they had the jobs, but no doubt, there will follow a stigma over these hours!

I recall one of the training captains asking them if they where doing PF and PM, and both of them said they had flown all 300 hours with safety pilot! Did this give them any competitive edge to get the job, maybe a little, all in all I think not, because even if they had this amount of hours on type, they still had to go trough the same training program as me with the company! Who had 0 hours on type!

I know of many guys last year, who had been instructing for many years, had several thousand hours SEP and hundreds of MEP hours, they got jobs, a least 4 guys I know 3 on TP and one on the A320 - so it does work, but it is much harder work, and it means you have be able to accept the hard work to get there, but you might not get there, who knows!

I know of P2F guy, who got kicked out because he was not good enough, there are so many factors, which could leave you in a much worse situation than you are in today! Btw he did not get his money refunded!

So it is a high gamble! Believe me, it has not been easy for anybody of us, and the irony is, that it does not easier, even though you want to believe once you have this and that it will!

It won't! But what can you say, stuck in more debts, even harder to get out of, you need to work / fly to just pay this, and most likely it will not even cover your debts to give you a good lifestyle, which you thought the flying career would!

Catch 22- - impatience is the killer for all TC's!

[axelFR]

Ok guys,

I will try to be as objective as possible without defending any point of views here:

I am currently living in Africa.

Some people here on the forum will tell you: go to Africa, do some bush flying and come back in europe with a bit of experience....

Ok, nice idea BUT be careful, bear in mind that africa is full of South African pilots camping on the airports and waiting to have jobs. In Namibia for example, it is being harder and harder to obtain the work permit! Same in Tanzania! A lot of countries here clearly don't want any more foreigners.

It was not the case a couple of years back!

FACT: a friend of mine went for an interview in Kenya recently, to fly a C206; they have asked him for 1000 hours ON TYPE!!!

Here the pilots on the caravan have thousands of hours....

So the market is really bad. Nobody is hiring, so people stay in those bush jobs, and that's why nowadays, they are asking for such stupid requirements!

So the point is: just don't think it's that easy to just go and have a job here. It's not!

In Europe, if you don't have anybody to help you out finding a job like paradropping or stuff like that, again the minimum hours they ask is totally crazy!

So when you get ouf of flight school.... what are the options nowadays???

Well you'd better pray for ryanair to call you because it's one of the only airline in europe hiring people with 200 hours TT and only requiring to speak english an not an other language!

And if you don't get called by them... well you have to think at the other options which may be to pay a Type Rating and a line Training. Again be careful, because the people involved in this business are crooks, so you can't trust them at all.

But once you have 500 hours on type, the war is not over!!!
Because beleive me there is a lot of us with more than 500 hours on type out there. (you will realize once you will have them).

And it's not because there are adds saying "we are recruiting with 500hrs on type" that means that they will call you for an interview.

But after all if you hang on, if you are willing to go in Asia or Africa you could make descent money, enjoy beautiful sceneries, have quite an unstable private life but do the job of your dreams!

Make up your mind!

Happy flying everyone ;)

[truckflyer]

This thing of go flying in Africa, is also an utopia!

First, going to Africa does not work for everybody, fair enough trying to live the dream, but making insane decisions to achieve this is also another part of it!

Friend of mine works with insurance within aviation, and told me there are jobs there, but you do it on your own risk, as safety, bad maintained aircraft etc. claims many lives every year!

The only positive with bush flying that it might give you some long term connections, however short term - it is not going to give you to much.

To be honest heard better things about people who worked for Susi Air than!

[TheBigD]

How about flight instructing? Is that not an option? Your knowledge of aviation will be amazing after you've instructed for a while. You get to build PIC time and you truly get to work with some great people. You are a professional and you can make contacts. Flight instructors are aviation professionals, P2F FO's, sorry guys, you are not aviation professionals. A professional is someone that is paid for their service amongst other things.

Yes, FI pay sucks and it's not "glorious flying" as wearing a nice new uniform sitting in the cockpit of a shiny new jet. But guess what, they are paying their dues, and FI's will get the job. It may take a few years and yes seniority in this industry is everything. But guys that don't pay for expensive PFT schemes will not be burdened by debt til they are 50 and will be able to afford such things as a mortage, a new car every few years etc.

And guess what the other advantage of obtaining your CFI opposed to paying $50K for P2F is? If you do get a gig with an airline, and when you do get furloughed (which you will in this industry), you can flight instruct part or full time. It will supplement the income with the part time job at WalMart. And guess what, while others are sitting at home, waiting for the call, you are flying, staying current and making some $$$.

[cgwhitemonk11]

I can tell you first hand that I decided against P2F and it has worked for me.

I made the very foolish mistake of paying for a rating years ago but when all my friends rushed off to buy 500 hrs on type (in most cases this takes more than a year so add your living costs on top of the initial outlay for the hours),
I however refused. Of them only a few got jobs and mostly in places they hate.

My road was much harder and involved taking risks and traveling across the world to build hours over a period of 2 years, holding down bar jobs as I went along.

Then I landed a skydive job back home, completed a season, learned how to actually fly an aircraft and what true decision making is, build some PIC time and managed not to kill anyone or myself.

I just got a job with a TP operator who is paying for my rating, and paying me a reasonable but not rich salary while i go to the gym and wait for the winds to die down... No bond either.

And truckflyer before you open your ignorant mouth I do have a family to support and am doing a damn fine job of it.

Also the poster above is correct, of the people who were hired alongside me most came from instructing or skydive backgrounds like myself. We wont get rich here, but we will have fun and when I make it to a major airline in a few years I will just shake my head at the P2F guys. :=

[cgwhitemonk11]

Also to make the point, when companies recruit in the traditional manner like this it has just created 2 skydiving positions and 2 instructing positions across the UK for other guys to step into, natural progression not basterdized one-up-man-ship

[truckflyer]

cgwhitemonk11 :

What is the reason for your bullish behaviour? What you have done is good, so why attack me in your success story?

You are 24, good for you! Some of us have different expectations in life, some have different backgrounds, different goals!

If this makes you happy, good for you, topic here is about TR and paying for line training, and think we both agree on paying for line training is cancer of the industry!

Maybe I am not willing to give up a good lifestyle for my family and myself for my own selfish gratification!
That's why I do not give up my business, as flying alone can not support my families and my expected lifestyle!

It's not all about me, me and me! When you hae family, the picture becomes more complex, but I also know few guys who puts priority in themselves !

[truckflyer]

cgwhitemonk11, Aren't you quite the hypocrite, having P2F the C208!


Copy of your old post:

Did it
Came back from Belize myself in November after spending 3 amazing months there, don't slam something you have never tried guys. Unfortunately I think they have upped the price dramatically and its now not really worthwhile.

PM me if you want anymore details but this is the link

Hour Building : vendita pacchetti ore di volo. and Llovis is all legit. Anybody got a good contact in Susi?

[cgwhitemonk11]

truckflyer, i think paying 2000 dollars to visit some friends and to get some experience on a C208b is not quite the same league as paying 50,000+, you also fly alongside the locals and they are quite happy to have you. I am proud of that experience. Would I be incorrect to say you didnt get your CPL for free?

You are the most ridiculous poster on this forum so if you really want to go down the road of bringing up old posts you will fall flat on your face.

And truckflyer I am merely giving my opinion to encourage guys who may be in this horrible position, that you can succeed by saying no to P2F.

Unlike you who merely comes on here to complain about how boring your life is

[truckflyer]

$2000 for 3 months, on a SEP aircraft, not many hours you did there?

Did you log the hours? I mean their AOC was for single pilot ops I assume!

Seems like you got a steel!

[cgwhitemonk11]

yes i did get a steal as i had several friends there at the time, then your P2f buddies came along and they realized they could charge whatever they liked and i suitably left. Yes I did log the hours as relative experience and no i wont be using them to apply for my ATPL, but they have helped me get jobs because unlike you, I do my research.

This will be my last response to you in this or any thread but let me be clear on something, I am trying to give people advice based on my own experience, they can take it or leave it and i hope it helps some.

You on the other hand are a 44 year old FO with RYR who i am fairly confident has never had any other flying job, little to no GA experience and a terrible attitude towards your chosen profession, what possible advice can you give anyone? :D

Hence why you got blasted in your own 'feeling sorry for myself thread', and suitably called a 'bell-end'.

That is all.

[cgwhitemonk11]

A C208b is not a SEP either, but I would hardly expect you to know that...

[truckflyer]

cgwhitemonk11

First you get very heated and personal in your attack, you are 24, with relative little life / work experience, so wait!

What you know about my GA experience, I started flying and had my PPL before you was born!

I did loads of Club flying non logged for free!

I was offered to do skydiving in UK, the club wanted £5000 for the C208 training, which would be refunded after 12 months free work for them!

So I said no thanks, I will try different way!

My research was good, but even with 1500 hours on type, there are no golden gates that will open, one of the reasons are the P2F and schools like CTC cornering the market!

There is little will to stop P2F because TRI and SFI's making great money on people taking a TR without job offers, it's a vicious circle!

When I get my 1500 hours I will do it myself, get SFI and do it as extra work, why not?

The other thread did not have you as the target group, I could not just leave may family and go working for bananas and coconuts, as I don't have other people to help!

The clear message is, do P2F, and watch the job you wish for soon will not exist!
There are FO's and Captains with thousands of hours on type, working trough crappy TC's, not getting a job with a proper company!
The rot will stay longer than you expect, not everybody wants to move to China for this job!

Get a realistic view of what you are getting into, and stop destroying your own futures, if this what you want to do!

I think the main point is, that even with 500 hours on type, your chances are marginal to improve your chances of getting a job, as example in 3 months I will have 500 hours on type, and so on, but many others will have even much more, and keep building, so it leaves you with little hope of success, unless you stay working for very bad TC's! Which will not help yourself in the long run, specially considering the debts you will have to repay!

[cirrus_]

it was mentioned in this thread you are a RYR 1st officer, because of our constant battle with each other this put a smile on my face as I would never work for RYR I think they are the scum of the industry, on par with Lion.

FYI I wont give up my day job on the 737 thanks:)

[truckflyer]

cirrus_

You must be either the biggest fantasist or biggest liar of them all here!

Do you have no integrity?
Some kind of moral compass that guides you? Are you just full of BS?

Few days ago you are searching for jobs in Africa flying a 727, and in October 2012 you claim to have failed the Line Training program with Falcon for Lion Air!

"cirrus_

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 37
ah good luck to all those who go for this, I self funded a TR to go on this with Falcon, but failed the sim assesment, and there are no second chances.

if your not up to scratch they take no pitty on you, nor do they care about the money you have spent to get this far.

they really do put you through your paces in the sim, be prepared.

despite what you read on here, Lion do have very high standards and its not a job you can just walk in to."

"yes pretty much straight after type rating, this was the intial sim assesment in Jakarta, I had got past the JAA check ride in Miami but only after 3 extra sessions.

in Jakarta the instruction was poor and I personally felt things were very unclear which led to mistake after mistake, I left the sim furious."

So for you P2F with Lion Air is better for the industry than RYR? Seriously, you need to get a grip of reality!

You posted a video of your first solo from 2009 in Piper Warrior, yet on 24.th of September you claim you have a TR on the 777 and in process of doing 737NG - not bad progress, going from wide-body to narrow body jet! Did you fail to mention your TR is on MS FSX PMDG, computer flight simulator!

"cirrus_

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Australia
Posts: 37
The 14 ATPL subjects in the UK are renowned to be a real bitch, and this was even agreed by a Check and training captain I spoke to at Cathay.

a couple of options for you, FAA ATP is just 1 exam, or CASA is 7 so if you fancy a bit of travel and are prepared to obtain the nessasary visas this would cut down the volume a bit.

on the more negative side, when you get to TR, interviews etc the amount of paperwork and knowledge requried is massive compared to ATPL subjects.

I have a TR on the 777 and am currently in the process of doing the 737NG and there must be something like 50,000 pages to read, its endless!! "

Excuse me, think your opinion about RYR and bitter twisted double standards about P2F - seriously - when I did my TR I passed within required hours/limits/sessions!

Line training the same, minimum required time!

And yet I do not have any grey hairs as you had in 2009!

Btw I have never mentioned that I worked for RYR, not that I would have had any issues working for them!

Have a good flight tonight on your MS FSX PMDG 737NG, it is a very good model, don't worry about the landing if it is hard, nobody will feel it! :ok: :E


You say RYR is the scum of the industry, on par with Lion.
Yet you tried to buy yourself into Lion, and failed, you was actually a P2F failure, I mean you was not even good enough to get a flying job when you was willing to pay for it? How does that feel? :D

[WeMadeYou]

aaoouchh. That last message from truckflyer was like seeing Rocky Balboa getting hit in the ring, over and over again.

Well we all have our issues. I'm flying for RYR aswell.
To be honest some things are good and i actually enjoy my life. And comparing RYR to Lion? Come on thats just ridiculous.
We earn between 65-83 euros/hr not paying for it!

RYR could be really good, the potential is there. So everyone working for RYR: Sign up and vote at Ryanair pilot group! (http://www.ryanairpilotgroup.com/index2.php)

[Wirbelsturm]

Some great 'on the fly' moderating going on. Nicely done sir!

cirrus_, I think you need to calm it down and stop playing the person and concentrate on playing the ball. If you have an argument to put across it is pointless doing it in the way you are doing it as the posts are meaningless and get deleted.

Unfortunately you have tarnished your own name by claiming previous posts were 'made up' hence you can no longer post without others contemplating what is and what isn't true.

Just for clarification RYR doesn't, the last time I looked, fly the A320. :E

Wirbelsturm (S61N, Squirrel, Jet Ranger, A109, A320, B777 and a few others,real world only none of which are on MSFS!!!! :} :ok:)

[truckflyer]

I think a few of you considerings these P2F schemes, should have a read at this thread a little bit first before you wander into Cuckco - Cuckco land and waste more money!

are 3000 jet hours not enough for interview?

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/508028-3000-jet-hours-not-enough-interview.html