Hawker Hunter (called Kermit?) crash

[Rhino power]

I hope someone can shed some light on this, many years a go there was a programme on the BBC about a pilot who was almost killed (sadly his co-pilot was) on take-off in a Hunter which I'm sure the pilot said was nicknamed 'Kermit' because of its green colour. The Hunter was a test aircraft and I think the programme was called 'Five minutes at a time'. I'd really like to know what became of the pilot and if possible more info on the actual aircraft and accident.

-RP

A quick dig around on UKSerials suggests it was XE531 Photo Search Results | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?regsearch=XE531)

Any further info greatly apprciated

[Dan Winterland]

Kermit was the only Hunter T12 built. Thr T12 was destined to be a trainer for the TSR2 - hence only one. It crashed on a takeoff from Boscome in about 1982 after the engine blew up. Both pilots ejected, but were injured. I wasn't aware one had died.

[Dan Winterland]

Addenda: From the Martin Baker website. It crashed on takeoff from Farnborough on 17 Mar 82. The crew were Flt Lt Rod Sean and Mr John Leng and it appears both survived.

[Rhino power]

Thanks for that Dan, I could've sworn the programme mentioned one of the crew had died in the accident, although I'm very pleased to be corrected!

-RP

[Sir George Cayley]

Didn't John Leng fly a/c at the Shuttleworth Trust?

SGC

[Wyvernfan]

Have to say thats a gorgeous colour scheme. Its suits the Hunters shape really well :ok:.


Rob

[Fokkerwokker]

Stunning colour scheme!

[bonajet]

That will be Rod Sears.

[lightningmate]

A very smooth aircraft to fly and a sad loss. CofG was a tad forward, so rounding out from a real forced landing in manual was anticipated as likely to be 'tricky' http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif. The much increased aileron activity with the FBW Mode active led to the aileron bearings being changed very frequently.

Officer Sears was awarded a Green Endorsement for his handling of the event, which occurred at just about the worst possible moment but with both guys getting out alive.

Notwithstanding the colour scheme, I have no recall of the aircraft being referred to as 'Kermit'.

lm

[chevvron]

I was ATC supervisor at Farnborough on the morning of the crash. John Leng phoned from Brough asking about the weather as the Green Hunter, being fitted with an early 'fly by wire' control system, (and not called Kermit as far as I'm aware) wasn't cleared to fly if lightning was forecast; I told him there was CB activity forecast but not lightning.
I was just going off duty about 2 pm when they taxied out, unusually it was kept in 'A' Shed near the tower rather than in west or south area, but having seen Hunter takeoffs before (and experienced one in XF321 with Terry Adcock who I now know to have been lightningmate RIP) I didn't bother to stay and watch. The tower controller remarked afterwards that he thought it was unusual to see the flame of reheat in a Hunter, (the tower then being at one end of the runway) then twigged that reheat wasn't installed!
I only found out about it when I saw BBC 'South Today' that evening.
COEF gave us a rundown at morning briefing about the incident. Apparently Rod Sears had detected a lack of power just after he rotated and not knowing there'd been a catastrophic turbine disc failure almost severing the fuselage, tried to relight no less than 3 times before he gave the order to eject. The two pilots came down in the pool of burning fuel behind the wreckage and both had a case of 'sunburn' on their faces, which were the only exposed skin areas, but certainly neither was killed.
The aircraft was featured in an early '60s spy film starring that bloke who used to do DFS Furniture adverts - can't remember his name or the name of the film.

[wrecker]

I seem to remember that there was an audio note book on board which was switched on at the time. I think the tape was worked on by Ray Davies of the AAIB who was able to determine the rpm of the turbine disc when it broke up.
Ray had just set up a new audio lab for work on cockpit voice recorders etc.

[John corps]

Not only the aileron bearings had to be changed often, but also the flight control PFCU's, I was working in the Hydraulic Bay at RAE "F" so was getting lots of work from XE531.
I was transfered to "A" Shed at the time of the engine failure, in charge of 2nd year apprentices and was detailed to take the lads out and map the runway and locate,identify and collect bits of the aircraft. This was too much of a job for one man and 10 apprentices.

[Dr Illitout]

News from the "It's a small world" department!!!!
I was one of the apprentices doing the mapping with the esteemed Mr Corps!!! (PM sent John)
I was doing some homework in a briefing room in A shed when I heard the Hunter start up. I didn't go and watch it's take off because Hunter take offs were two a penny those days. I went out when I heard the crash claxon go off.
In a further development in the "It's a small world" department, I bumped into one of the pilots thirteen years later when he was a 767 P2 for BA.
I don't recall the Hunter being called Kermit either.
I do remember a certain John Farley turning up to fly it once as well. Some of us apprentices were in awe that this god of aviation was turning up in our hangar. I say some as one of our number said "Who the hell is he?"! We put him right!

Rgds Dr I

[Andy Parker]

Late into this one but, I'm currently staying with Rod Sear's son.
WE were talking earlier about something unrelated & this subject came up.
He told me about the incident in the same detail as Chevvron & he said his dad called it Kermit.

Both of them were in a bad way, John Leng managed to eject vertically but his dad went horizontally & ended up in a bad way.

[kenparry]

To be a little pedantic: XE 531 was not a "T12" , just Mk12. This airframe had no training role, but was used for the development of some avionics for the TSR2. This included a HUD for the TFR system, and there was also a vertical camera in the nose. There was also, as noted above, a FBW system. Had TSR2 gone ahead, there would allegedly have been some more built as T12 - yes, for training this time - as part of the TSR2 conversion course.

[Loose rivets]

Empire of the Clouds was still lying on my desk from earlier and I casually looked in the index for John Farley. I wasn't disappointed, though I was in for some surprises when it came to TSR2. Think of a much loved uncle telling you why that girl you're so in love with is not for you.

[chevvron]

Not only the aileron bearings had to be changed often, but also the flight control PFCU's, I was working in the Hydraulic Bay at RAE "F" so was getting lots of work from XE531.
I was transfered to "A" Shed at the time of the engine failure, in charge of 2nd year apprentices and was detailed to take the lads out and map the runway and locate,identify and collect bits of the aircraft. This was too much of a job for one man and 10 apprentices.
After '531 was recovered and before it was trucked away, it stayed in 'A' Shed for a while and during this stay, a party of ATC cadets from my squadron were taken on a conducted tour and I remember the person in charge (obviously John corps) offering his 'second year apprentices' as subjects to be shown what was going on. To say the least I was highly impressed by their knowledge and their abilty to explain things to the cadets in a way they would understand.
Also in a back room of 'A' Shed at that time was G-ACSS, the Comet racer, which was undergoing restoration.

[BEagle]

Yes, I recall having a spirited professional discussion with JF about TSR-2 during a lecture at White Waltham. My conclusion was that he was thinking of it as a 'big fighter bomber' with all the manouevrability that implied, whereas I thought of it more as a low-level bomber to replace the Vulcan.

He was 100% right about P-1154 and HS681 though!

[Loose rivets]

BEagle, can you lay hands on James Hamilton Paterson's Empire of the Clouds? The quotes and declined quotes* are very well laid out and I'd love to know how you interpreted John Farley's opinions from the quotes vs your personal contact. I of course have no first hand knowledge at all.

I'm loathe to quote the book without J H-P's approval though I'm sure I can say John Farley did not approve of TSR2 primarily because "It didn't have enough wing".

I'll read it again tomorrow.

*implying he wouldn't quote without permission.

[Jhieminga]

BEagle, can you lay hands on James Hamilton Paterson's Empire of the Clouds? The quotes and declined quotes* are very well laid out and I'd love to know how you interpreted John Farley's opinions from the quotes vs your personal contact. I of course have no first hand knowledge at all.

I'm loathe to quote the book without J H-P's approval though I'm sure I can say John Farley did not approve of TSR2 primarily because "It didn't have enough wing".
The whole quote goes into a bit more detail about the cancellation and touches on some other issues as well, but it boils down to its small wing and the consequences of this design choice.
The trouble with a negligible wing is your take-off and landing performance becomes appalling. And if you look at the films of the one TSR2 that flew - and that was flying at light flight-test weights, not operational weights - you see the large angle of attack needed and the long ground run and the very poor landing performance.
Even if they had accommodated that, the aircraft was still going to have very poor manoeuvring capability.
John Farley as quoted on page 313 of the paperback version of 'Empire of the Clouds', J. Hamilton-Paterson (2010).

[DHfan]

Far be it for me to argue with John Farley but it sounds like he completely missed the point of TSR2 as BEagle suggested.

There was never any question of it being a fighter bomber as it wasn't part of the design brief. It was supposed to be supersonic at very low level using terrain following radar and the small wing was to cope with what I think was called gust response or something along those lines.
I read one report where the Lightning chase pilot said he had to climb to get out of turbulence and the TSR2 pilot said what turbulence? Job done.

[Loose rivets]

My memory of general chatter was exactly that, and mumblings about the electronics not being up to the job of terrain hugging.

[Brewster Buffalo]

......
There was never any question of it being a fighter bomber as it wasn't part of the design brief.........
Surprisingly it was! under armament there was a requirement for the internal carriage of 24 x 3" rockets...."to be employed in shallow dive attacks."
I suspect this requirement might have been there to get Army support for the project rather than a serious intent for a secondary fighter-bomber role.

[DHfan]

I don't think I'd ever heard that before but, to me, it reinforces the stupidity of Operational Requirements to suggest that a Mach 2+ bomber could be used in a secondary role for ground support.
Still nothing to do with maneuverability though...