Fellow Aviators

I have had my PPL for just under 2 years now and roughly 100hrs total i know theres been lots of posts before this but it seems the usual route of parachute dropping and glider tugging isn't happening here in the central belt of scotland :( I want to do something useful with my PPL the usual trips for lunch and jolly around the skies are great and all but seem to be going no where now :ugh: Im soon going down the commercial route and want to do something different and useful to work to flying deadlines etc any ideas or previous experience of what I could do to broaden my flying experience ?

FSG :)

Go do something different.

Go for a moose burger in the artic circle

Or go for a Tapas in the south of spain.

Aerobatics, gliding, microlights, ...

They all will give you an appreciation for various handling issues that may not be apparent from middle-in-the-envelop spamcan flying.

Unfortunately that sort of flying doesn't really add to a commercial pilots CV.

Come to the Fife fly-in on the 16th. Free landing. Spot landing competition. BBQ. Lots of entertainment.

Also there should be quite a few members/ex instructors who have gone done the commercial route, who would be happy to chat.

Hi Flying Scottish Guy,

I would suggest that you do things that will benefit you when you go towards commercial flying.

For example, why not do the IMC course and night qualification? That way you get a taste of this kind of flying and the IMC gives a small discount on the instrument flying you need to do for the IR.

You could also do a course in recovery from uncommanded excursions (unusual attitudes).

You could also do Ultimate High's advanced PPL (if they are still doing it).

Why not save up and take a flying holiday in somewhere like the USA, Canada or South Africa, where you fly in climatically very different conditions and can do cross country flights with legs of 500 miles or more?

Regards,

BP.

Unfortunately that sort of flying doesn't really add to a commercial pilots CV.

It doesn't add anything to the flight experience requirements that need to be met before entering the CPL course, or the CPL exam, indeed.

But to say it doesn't add anything to your CV is a step too far, AFAIC. Your CV is more than just the hours you flew to meet a legal requirement.

Pilot DAR put it nicely a while ago: You can fly the same hour a hundred times over, or you can fly a hundred different hours.

But to say it doesn't add anything to your CV is a step too far, AFAIC. Your CV is more than just the hours you flew to meet a legal requirement.

Yes it is, but apart from showing interest in aviation for say an application for a cadet scheme its not really something most look at.

To be honest most pad out there CV with that sort of stuff and when you speak to them they had a trial flight in a MC and 30mins with Ultimate High. The ones that stand out are the ones where someone has done something different in thier hour building.

I suspect that the glider people would like their tug pilots to have some glider experience, so getting some gliding may be a way in there.

I do know of one chap who literally knocked on the door of a parachuting club and got a position as a parachute drop pilot.

I could only suggest that you go along to places like Portmoak (gliding) and Strathallan or Fife (parachuting) and ask, if you haven't already done so.

I find a weekend's instructing hard work - I hate to think how much harder tug pilot or parachute flying might be;)

Its not as bad apprently, even though you might do 30-40 flights for tugging. And 10-20 dropping.

You don't realise how much you put into each student even if its a trial flight.

If I do "work" say 6 sectors hard IFR to mins flying 5 hours over a 9 hour day it is way less knackaring than doing 4 1 hour instructional flights.

Not much mileage in microlight or glider time, fun 'though both are, as the hours don't count towards your eventual CPL.

I would do IMC and night - you'll use those, and both will reduce the load on your CPL course. A few long IMC trips using non-GPS nav will also be great practice for your CPL.

You have too few hours to be ready to do an instructors course, or for a club to be overly keen on having you glider tugging or similar.

You have to be careful not to breach advertising rules, but for example might there be a local camera club with members interested in cost-sharing? Aerial photography is a rare opportunity for them, and achieving what they want - safely and consistently - would be a useful self-improvement exercise for you in your flying. I once spent a number of trips - in my case for the sheer fun of it - helping obtain photographs as a local archeological dig was unearthed, and got a lot out of that.

Needless to say, Hebridean Island hopping is also one of the most enjoyable things you can do in an aeroplane, and if you don't do some of that with your hour building, you're an idjit. Also take a trip to Ireland.

A quick tailwheel course will open up grass strip flying in a taildragger, which should inject both fun, and handling discipline into your flying.

What about entering some form of competition - RBR is microlights only (in a fortnight) and Top-Nav is passed, but you could do the course and enter some RAeC/RRRA air races?

G

Unfortunately that sort of flying doesn't really add to a commercial pilots CV
Actually, I had an interview with the chief pilot of an aviation company and he had my CV in front of him. He asked me about flying my Rallye into and out of small airfields and some of the adventures we have had in it, and then about the aerobatics I had done.

He then said "I like that, too many people come straight from the pilot factories and think they make a good pilot, I like people who have done different things"....and I got the job.

What type of aviation compnay was it?

He asked me about flying my Rallye into and out of small airfields and some of the adventures we have had in it

This is what stands out people going off on adventures.

I agree Jock, surely most employers would rather have people who are enthusiastic about the job they're being employed for, whether that's flying aeroplanes or cleaning windows.

If you're already getting bored at 100 hrs you may need to work on that OP !

I flew my 1,272nd to 1,275th hours this weekend, and still found it all a shedload of fun. If it's not fun, go and do something that pays better and has less antisocial hours!

G

Depends which part of he industry you are in G.

A large part just want you to turn up to work sober pass your checks every 6 months and not to say boo to a goose if someone elses incompetence completely screws with your life.

The adventure bit is only because it stands out compared to the other 100's and 100's of CV's which are exactly the same license and experence. Gives the interviewer something to talk about.

Lots of good ideas here , its not i'm getting bored of flying as such I just don't want to fall into the trap of bimbling round the local area and a few destinations I could fly to without a chart and instead use the flight time constructively ,

Genghis - the camera club is something I never thought about will be worth giving that a go :ok:

India mike - I tried the parachute route first off but they weren't keen on letting a less than 100 hr PPL fly their rather large planes compared to the spamcans and I think until i have at least 110 hrs and a IMC or IR the parachuting is a no go is the general reactions ive been getting from pilots and recruiters alike :*

Which part sits on the interview panels?

G

Every company is different G.

Sometimes you can bypass HR and just get a interview straight with the CP or fleet manager and other times you have to practise your acting skills and deal with the HR deptment first before your "flying" becomes of any interest.

They really don't like meat bombers for some reason though.

You could also do Ultimate High's advanced PPL (if they are still doing it).

Yes, still available and recommended.:ok:

My suggestion as follows.

Buy a share in a permit to fly tailwheel aircraft and go places in it. Get interested in the maintenance stuff that you need to do and then take your plane to all the places you said you wanted to go. I'm not sure I like shared planes much but I think that's more a reflection of me personally rather than groups, who are frequently run quite well.

The problem with renting is that it's very limiting, you can't take a tent and just go somewhere interesting with some friends and camp out for the weekend, or fly round the UK at 70kts. The upside of course is that you don't have any responsibilities but it's the responsibility of owning and operating a wee aircraft over a relatively large distance that will give you exceptional experience in terms of handling and airmanship that you would not otherwise have had renting and flying to Oban and back in a day. There's a few good groups around the central belt and quite often shares available.

Good luck :)

The problem with renting is that it's very limiting, you can't take a tent and just go somewhere interesting with some friends and camp out for the weekend, or fly round the UK at 70kts

Not quite true, in my experience. You need to know the inner workings of the rental agency/club and the rental patterns, and the people in the club. But if you make your request carefully, it is possible.

Remember that club income is exclusively from renting and instruction. If you take away a busy plane for a few days and let it sit idle on a remote grass strip for a weekend while you are on the beach, and during that same period the renter could have gotten eight hours or more of airtime from that airframe, they're not going to be pleased with you.

But if you ask for a midweek rental of an aircraft that's not going to be busy anyway, you might just get a good deal, with very minimal hours flying required.

People at my club have taken rental aircraft as far as the North Cape and Morocco, for instance.

But it's true, it's a matter of opportunity and negotiation. Having your own aircraft or a share in an aircraft makes things easier.

Our Glaswegian friend speaks a lot of sense.

Aircraft for sale (http://www.afors.com) or the Welcome to the Light Aircraft Association (http://www.laa.uk.com) are the two obvious places to look for cheap PtF aeroplanes or shares in same.

G

Backpacker, I know the Scottish rental places pretty well, they love the idea of renting for a few days so long as you fly it but when it comes to the day they can be a little reluctant to lose a plane for a few days.

Nonetheless the LAA struts are the first place I'd look. There's 3 in the centralish belt, West of Scotland, East of Scotland and Perth. Well worth a look and it's all about enjoying the planes and the flying :) Also go to Sywell this year, it's a great place to get a look at all kinds of different types that you would never imagine :).

Cross-posted from another thread, and having just looked it up...

E CPL modular course – Aeroplanes
GENERAL
1 The aim of the CPL(A) modular course is to train PPL(A) holders to the level of
proficiency necessary for the issue of a CPL(A).
2 Before commencing a CPL(A) modular course an applicant shall be the holder of a
PPL(A) issued in accordance with Annex 1 to the Chicago Convention.
3 Before commencing the flight training the applicant shall:
(a)have completed 150 hours flight time;
(b)have complied with the prerequisites for the issue of a class or type rating for
multi-engine aeroplanes in accordance with Subpart H, if a multi-engine
aeroplane is to be used on the skill test.
4 An applicant wishing to undertake a modular CPL(A) course shall complete all the
flight instructional stages in one continuous course of training as arranged by an
ATO. The theoretical knowledge instruction may be given at an ATO conducting
theoretical knowledge instruction only.

That was from CAP 804 Section 4 Part L Page 9, and the following page says:-

EXPERIENCE
12 The applicant for a CPL(A) shall have completed at least 200 hours flight time,
including at least:
(a)100 hours as PIC, of which 20 hours of cross-country flight as PIC, which shall
include a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540 km (300 NM), in the course of
which full stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of
departure shall be made;
(b)5 hours of flight time shall be completed at night, comprising 3 hours of dual
instruction, which shall include at least 1 hour of cross-country navigation and 5
solo take-offs and 5 solo full stop landings; and
(c)10 hours of instrument flight instruction, of which up to 5 hours may be
instrument ground time in an FNPT I, or FNPT II or FFS. An applicant holding a
course completion certificate for the Basic Instrument Flight Module shall be
credited with up to 10 hours towards the required instrument instruction time.
Hours done in a BITD shall not be credited;

(d)6 hours of flight time shall be completed in a multi-engine aeroplane.1
1. The reference contained in (d) only applies to pilots seeking to conduct a Skill Test in a Multiengine
aeroplane. The UK CAA issued a derogation under Article 14(6) of the Basic Regulation to
reflect this.

(e)Hours as PIC of other categories of aircraft may count towards the 200 hours
flight time, in the following cases:
(i) 30 hours in helicopter, if the applicant holds a PPL(H); or
(ii) 100 hours in helicopters, if the applicant holds a CPL(H); or
(iii)30 hours in TMGs or sailplanes; or
(iv)30 hours in airships, if the applicant holds a PPL(As); or
(v) 60 hours in airships, if the applicant holds a CPL(As).


So learning to fly gliders if you want, up to 30 hours will count towards your CPL. There's an excuse you should take advantage of!

G

...do one of our trips! :)

Or, do something similar but by yourself?

Both will give you useful experience in international touring - which will make your CV stand out from the crowd.

It's a lot of fun too!

Fly safe, Sam.

At the risk of being rude most PPL,s don't fly very well. They are safe but unable to accurately fly the aircraft.

Actually most brand new CPL,s do not fly much better either. Most of my flying instructing now is teaching for the flight instructor rating. The first couple of hours invariably will be used raising the students basic flying standard.

The standard I want see is altitude within 40 of planned altitude, airspeed no more than 2 knots from planned, ball centered airplane, trimmed. Any excursions from this should result in an immediate correction. You should be doing this with 90 % of your time looking out and only a maximum of 10 % of your time referencing your flight instruments .

Doing this initially is hard work but pretty soon flying accurately becomes habit. If you are aspiring to fly commercially I think you should start treating your PPL flying as work. One huge advantage of taking this approach to time building is that if you are following the modular route, bringing your "A" game to CPL and IR training will mean completing your training in the minimum hours which could save you big dollars.

Thanks for all the replys guys , I think the general reactions is I'm going to phone my local LAA strut in Glasgow see if they can help firstly

Also I should have probably said but I'm going to be doing an integrated course don't know if I'm allowed to say the name but they fly white and navy blue planes from kidlington :ok: and I just really wanted to do something constructive to show I'm not one of the "factory made" pilots people
Seem to refer to when I mention this :=

Hopefully by getting hold of an LAA plane for a few days and maybe even take along a flying partner soci can fly most of the way under the hood to touch up those instrument skills :O

Thanks again guys
FSG :)

If you're going on an integrated course there will be plenty of time to get your IF skills up to scratch, what you need is handling and airmanship experience which you can only get doing stuff :)

BPF isn't totally wrong but do the stuff that you enjoy the integrated course will get you to the standard required to join an airline.

If you want to get more accurate, and have a good instrument appreciation, the IMC is well worth it - smartens your flying up immensely.

It'll definitely make a future IR less onerous, and for when you want to get out of the UK, you can get up to a reasonable altitude, get a Traffic service, and get South without any of the tedious mucking about VFR under the wx.

Thanks for all the replys guys , I think the general reactions is I'm going to phone my local LAA strut in Glasgow see if they can help firstly

Also I should have probably said but I'm going to be doing an integrated course don't know if I'm allowed to say the name but they fly white and navy blue planes from kidlington :ok: and I just really wanted to do something constructive to show I'm not one of the "factory made" pilots people
Seem to refer to when I mention this :=

Hopefully by getting hold of an LAA plane for a few days and maybe even take along a flying partner soci can fly most of the way under the hood to touch up those instrument skills :O

Thanks again guys
FSG :)

If you are doing the integrated course, you don't need light aircraft hours.

So why not get your experience in gliders and microlights - cheaper, probably more fun, will teach you lots about yourself and about flying.

Have a look at the microlight club at Strathaven.

G

to say there is no parachute flying in Scotland is nonsence. There is three parchute centres in central Scotland. No glider tugging , again nonsence , as there are three glider centres in Scotland

You might also embed normal habits which will have to be trained out of you before you can join the magenta line borg.

BTW I am way pro you flying outside the syllabus but maybe gliding would be better to get your airborn fix or weight shift microlights. Thats just purely because they have a very set way of doing things and it can cause problems if you turn up as a mature pilot.

Personally if I saw a Intergrated CV with gliding and Microlight hours, it might actually not go straight in the bin.

Yes, I agree Jock.

Gliding and flexwing microlighting are quite different in many ways to light aeroplane flying, but still build good habits of lookout, airmanship, and just plain familiarity with the airborne environment.

Plus they're cheaper! I'm doing a lot of flexwing flying at the moment - it's working out at about £45/hr all-in, and I'm having lots of fun doing it. When I get out of that and back into a "Group A" I find I'm as sharp in that as I've ever been.

They will make for a better and more interesting pilot, without building habits that need to be unlearned to the same extent that unsupervised group-A PPLing might for somebody joining what you, largely accurately, call the "Magenta Line Borg".

G

cheers guys ill give strathaven a call been in there a few times in the 172 s may aswell try it in a microlight

stevenfyfe - I am not saying there is no Parachuting or gliding in central scotland im saying i dont fit what theyre looking for , around 100hrs now to fly the parachutists your talking about I would need to also have an IMC too which I do not have so that rules out all of the parachute places :ugh: , gliding they are looking for someone with gliding time which I have none of because they want to know the guy tugging knows what the gliders will react like and so he will know where to drop them

FSG, it was just a case of him not reading the thread properly ;). Not sure what the bold lettering was about.

Keep at it, I just saw a lovely Piper Vagabond on afors for about 16k with a new permit. If you know a couple of guys who are interested that would be a perfect share aircraft to own and very, very cheap to run. All you need is a hangar ;)

I would need to also have an IMC too which I do not have so that rules out all of the parachute places

Why on earth do they want you to have ain IMC rating for para dropping, very rare to drop through cloud?:confused:

Get yourself a share or some kind of ownership/control of an old reasonably cheap Cub, even if it looks like shit with knackered paint etc, as long as the engine/airframe are half decent, no fancy panel/interior or avionics, get it kitted out with Alaskan bushwheels and go use the Scottish wilderness for what is was designed for. In an oot o' fermers fields and toffs estates stayin oot of sight o the manse or ferm hoose.

Now THAT is flying !!!

I know of no cubs that are shared in Scotland :) that's not true, I know of one.

I also have never really considered the legalities of setting down in peoples back gardens, been tempted a few times mind :) but the thought of landing on an unprepared surface puts the willies right up me.

I'd also considered what kit I'd need fitted other than tundra tyres, definitely good brakes, flaps, 150 engine - which means a CofA cub £££ and all kinds of high lift devices. Tempting as hell but really there are plenty of wee strips about the place to keep one happy :).

get it kitted out with Alaskan bushwheels and go use the Scottish wilderness for what is was designed for. In an oot o' fermers fields and toffs estates stayin oot of sight o the manse or ferm hoose.


Daft suggestion. Scottish Law wasn't designed for this. In Alaska, this is done for hunting/fishing. What do you do after landing in Scotland? Take off immediately? You are likely to be seen by hillwalkers or stalkers, both likely to disapprove. Any mechanical problem will be a disaster. The guy who legally landed a Cessna on skis on Cairngorm in the 60s was unable to fly off.

What do you do after landing in Scotland? Take off immediately?

That is exactly what you do, nothing to hang around for, unless you need a piss.

As for the stalkers on estates, they work for the estate owners who generally fall into 2 categories.
1. Toffs, who usually have been in the services, and the ones I have met like aviation/boats etc. and as long as you don't make a habit of it don't mind a quick in and out.
2. Russian oligarchs, who I would imagine view a quick touch and go on the smaller end of the criminality scale based on the methods generally employed in acquiring the resources to buy the estate in the first place.

As MJ says the locals don't seem to mind, I do a lot of bouncing in and out of fields and have not had any trouble yet. As for the types of folks who get upset because they want their particular way of enjoying the outdoors practised to the exclusion of others its basically a big Foxtrot Oscar to them.

Why on earth do they want you to have ain IMC rating for para dropping, very rare to drop through cloud?

foxmoth- Yes it is rare to drop through clouds however we are in scotland and the clubs insist on having it because you would need one to do dropping in controlled airspace

piperboy84 - Think I may need to call the local farmer and test how smooth his grass really is :ok:

The standard I want see is altitude within 40 of planned altitude, airspeed no more than 2 knots from planned, ball centered airplane, trimmed. Any excursions from this should result in an immediate correction.

You are a hard man :)

Accurate altitude is obviously desriable, and trimmed. But airspeed is whatever you get when you have set the desired power settings. Who cares what the airspeed actually is, within 2kt? Engine management comes first. Also, the slightest up/downdraught while holding altitude will screw around with the IAS a lot more than 2kt.

I tend to agree with Peter.

I do a lot of syndicate checkouts and in those, for example, I am much much more interested in pilots ability to maintain situational awareness, handle emergencies, slot neatly into traffic patterns, understand their aeroplane and stay within limits.

If they also happen to fly accurately, that's great. But the level of accuracy I'm looking for is far less onerous than the quality of, for example, their lookout and handling of emergencies.

Realistically a VFR pilot who drifts up and down through 100ft does no real harm to anybody, whilst one not maintaining a decent lookout is a menace to himself and everybody else in the air.

G

Its a means to an end with the commercial students, if he flogs them with the tolerance it stresses them out and expands their capacity.

After they can do it you can back off because they will always have it and never stray outside the limits even when you get external effects such as themals etc.

I am sure he is flogging them for lookout at the same time. Its just a means of overloading them to expand there capacity. I have done the same with PPL students going onto commercial if they are up to it. Its a fine line of stress which is benificial and promotes learning and developes spare capacity and extreme stress which shuts the learning process down.

After they can do it you can back off because they will always have it and never stray outside the limits even when you get external effects such as themals etc.

What nonsense, MJ. You are a crazy instructor.

"Always have it"? :ugh:

In thermals??? :ugh: Maybe there aren't any "thermals" in Scotland?

Clearly you never see your students (whom I feel sorry for) more than a few weeks after you have "finished" with them.

You can make anybody really good, by intense flying. In my FAA IR, which was much harder in pure instrument flying intensity than the JAA IR, I was doing 2 flights a day, partial panel, timed turns, VOR approaches with 2nd VOR crosscuts using a single VOR receiver, etc. I was really good after 2 weeks of this, 2x a day, 6 days a week. The checkride on the 14th day was easily passed, of course.

It lasts a few weeks................

You MJ are either taking the micky in your outrageous elitist postings or you are behaving utterly inappropriately as an instructor.

I wonder if your FTO also runs the bogus 170A "flight test" scheme, where you get a couple of £k more out of every punter even after they are ready for the IRT? I wonder if your FTO's owner is also the sole authorised 170A examiner? :E

What brought that on Peter, Jock didn't even suggest not using GPS !

G:8

You are obviously not an instructor peter. Your instructor was more than likely do the same thing to yourself and you wouldn't have known. The progressive stepping up of work load is pretty standard to expand capacity.

I don't work for a FTO, line training Captain on TP's and just recently I posted on schools fleecing students for 170A flight test for CPL.

Even when we get new FO's into airline work we do the same. Initially everything is done slow time and well within the envelope then you progressively step it up giving them more of the envelope to play with getting them to deal with hot high and letting them get into tighter spots before pointing it out to them. If you don't as soon as ATC throws out a ringer they are just maxed out and it becomes single crew.

Quite quickly they start flying with the tolerance of the width of the zero. Then it takes quite a bit longer and many approaches before their capacity has expanded enough that they are up for having a half decent SA in the terminal enviroment. Then they can predict when they are about to get shafted and can set things up to deal with it. It always produces a smile when you hear "Were getting setup for a hot and high, can you ask for decent or 160 knts please"

And I only used thermals as an example but you get loads of them in Scotland hence all the cracking gliding that goes on. Also tons of ornagraphic effects. Think the gliding altitude record of 39,000 ft was a wave day in scotland. 1000ft/min wave isn't uncommon. And neither is gliding conversions being able to gain height while doing a PFL in a Tommy (had two of the buggers do that).

CPL training is also different to PPL training. You are teaching them to do a pro job with standards (never taught CPL though). If a PPL student has already said they they will be going pro and wants you to get them up to CPL standards thats there choice as the customer. The few I have taught like that had a very stress free progression through to becoming airline pilots. And the instructor de-brief after the PPL test is amusing, one examinor who is also a CPL examinor just joked he had to ask if it was a PPL test that they were doing.

One of the big problems with new instructors is that they want CPL standards of flying from PPL's because a couple of months previously thats what they were getting made to do.

I know your a busy man but why don't you go and get a CRI course done then you might understand where the instructors on the forum are coming from with what you call elitist postings.

I know Scotland has thermals; I was being ironic.

The problem with your blanket statements is that they are not informative. One cannot hold altitude if there are sufficient thermals, so why say it? In the FAA IR, Arizona, afternoon, +/-300ft is possible if you are really working like a one armed bandit. So there have to be allowances for the conditions.

And competence over time is only going to be as good as currency i.e. how often you fly and what kind of flying you do.

I can't recall ever seeing any test standards document, in any regime, that didn't require examiners to allow for conditions.

But, aspirational high standards remain a valuable training tool - I recall being required to routinely manage +/-50ft before being allowed to take my CPL skill test where the requirement was +/-100ft. Such practices are pretty normal I believe.

However, particularly at PPL level, I still think that there are much more important things a pilot needs to be getting right than ultra-accurate holding of heights and headings.

G

+- 300ft you are joking arn't you?

Do that in a hold and all hell will let loose with the TCAS machines.

And as you well know the limits are +-100ft the +-300ft is for enforcement action by ATC.

And if your competent you can keep within tolerances. I bet BPF students can and they will keep within the +-2 knts as well while they are at it.

These arn't elitist standards they are professional personal minimum standards. Some of the auld uns you think the instruments are knackard because they move to whats been assigned and don't move until another clearance is given and it doesn't matter what the wx is be it bouncing around in the rosun hold in and out of CU or wanging around low level doing survey runs which you have to be +-20ft and +-1m +-2 knts on a track for the 3D ground mapping to have a chance of building a decent model.

And you are correct G but if they can and do all the other good stuff there is no harm stretching them to perform to the best of there ability PPL being the foundations and all that, if they request it and can do it.

Do that in a hold and all hell will let loose with the TCAS machines.

And as you well know the limits are +-100ft the +-300ft is for enforcement action by ATC.

Sure but all those people are sitting there on autopilot ;)

It's easy then.

I haven't flown a autopilot equiped machine for something like 1000 hours and they have all had TCAS.

Also depending what type of aircraft your flying if the AP is US its a cat C MEL which is a 10 day fix. If for example you take the Flybe fleet I would expect every day there is at least one if not more will be flying around without an AP.

And your right it is easy even without an AP. You can get your divert plates out, have a cup of coffee, work out what your bin it fuel is.

The bottom line to this whole flying accurately debate is as follows -

The most accurate pilots are those who fly a few hours of stick time at least two or three times a week.

I've found flying is not like riding a bicycle, skills fade very, very quickly in the first few weeks, then it shallows off for the long run.

I used to fly 5-7 hours a day in 172s round and round in circles at 500 feet, with at least 90% of that time spent looking out of the window. This was in the middle of Summer, slap bang in the middle of the thermals. For 95% of the time, my alt was within +- 20 feet, heading within +- 1 degree, balance ball centred, speed varied a little but that was to be expected given the nature of the flying.

When I stopped that operation, I didn't fly for a month or so. Jumped into a PA28 for a jolly, and I would estimate the workload required of myself to maintain the same accuracy was possibly increased 4-5 fold compared to when I was doing it for ages, every day. It was no where near as fluid, either.

If you're worried that you don't seem to be flying as accurately as you'd like, strive to improve, but don't worry too much. It's only natural that those people who do it for a job (or fly as frequently as that) are the ones who fly the most accurately.

But even though it was more work you still managed it.

If you have never stepped up to that accuracy you won't be able to do it.

After you have done it you know you can and thats the reason why it takes 4-5 more effort because you know you can and for that matter you won't let yourself drop your personal standards. If you don't have personal standards you will never fly accurately.

the clubs insist on having it because you would need one to do dropping in controlled airspace
Hi FSG,
Why's that then? I guess they're free to insist on any experience and qualifications they wish for their drop pilots, but that's not the same as requiring one for dropping in CAS.

I'm guessing more that the clubs want the option of your being able to climb or descend through cloud, and keep going as long as possible then if essential divert into a bigger airport using an IAP.

Plus the IMC is further training and tends to deliver pilots with a bit more ability to fly accurately than the vanilla PPL.

G

Hi Genghis,
I agree with your very sensible suppositions, it's certainly not a bad thing to have, desirable even? Do they actually climb/descend/drop through a solid overcast, I'd be surprised if that's a regular occurrence, but stand to be corrected, as I don't know much about parachuting.
However, I was just particularly querying FSG's assertation, that in Scotland an IMCr is a requirement for dropping parachutists from inside CAS.
If there was a need to be IMC (thus IFR) in class D to G airspace, then yes an IMCr (or IR) would be required. I don't have a Scottish half-mil handy, so not sure how much of the CAS is D and how much is A. If they want to drop in VMC inside class A or above FL195 in C, then it would have to be an IR not an IMCr.

I live a couple of miles from Hibaldstow para centre. They drop through cloud every day it is suitable. I queried this with an experienced droplet from Langar and he said as long as the cloud base is high enough then dropping through cloud is no longer an issue.

this is what I have been hearing from most of the instructors at the airport they say enjoy the PPL and the less than CPL standards of flying because its gonna get hard pretty soon . They also said they weren't looking for CPL standards on a PPL doing a check out as long as I could reasonably hold altitude and heading and still keep control of the plane they were happy

mrmum - The parachute club explained it in a way of they don't want to be cancelling drops on a droppable day because of the freshly minted PPL with no IMC cant go above the clouds (Legally that is :E ) and have to turn some requests away to some drops in CAS above the cloud tops again because of the new guy which could also damage their reputation if they cancelled on everyone more often than flying which would more than likely be the case with the scottish weather :{

Accurate flying has nothing do with hours in the log book or licenses held. I think it reflects a personal desire to want to be a good pilot.

I think one should take pride in their flying and strive to make each flight as perfect as they can. This doesn't have to make flying the aeronautical equivalent of putting on a hair shirt, it is simply a desire to fly well reflected in spending that extra 15 seconds getting the trim set exactly right for the cruise, or making a point of getting the right rudder in as the power comes up to start a climb.

At the heart of accurate flying is pitch attiude recognition and control. That is the abillity to by looking out the windshield (Not at the instrument panel !:ugh:), being able to go to exactly the attitude which will give you the desired performance.

One of the things I see all the time that just drives me crazy is pilots who chase the airspeed indicator. For example they are going from cruise to climb. They pull the nose up until the airspeed needle is pointing at the climb airspeed. But of course inertia and instrument lag means that they have established a too high nose up pitch attitude. The airspeed now decays and we are climbing at a speed well below the desired value. When I point this out the response is to lower the nose until the airspeed needle is pointing at the right number with the inevitable result that the pitch attitude is now too low and the airspeed starts to increase....and the cycle starts all over again.:mad:

One of my favorite exercises is to cover the ASI and then get them to try again. It is amazing how quickly most students will be able to just nail the airspeed when they concentrate on going to and holding a constant climb attitude. The big pay off comes on the final approach where a steady attitude greatly improves airspeed control and results in better landings.

Toward the end of training I will get the student to do one circuit from take off to touch down with the ASI covered. It usually results in one off their better landings:ok:

As for altitude control it doesn't take very long for my students to get very tired of me telling them "it is just as easy to fly at 2000 feet as it is to fly at 2031 feet" :E

Do you really think accurate flying is the most important thing in a pilot BPA?

Compared, for example, to situational awareness, careful planning, aircraft knowledge, regular practice in handling emergencies....

Flying accurately is nice, but is it really the most important thing?

G

Do you really think accurate flying is the most important thing in a pilot BPA?

Compared, for example, to situational awareness, careful planning, aircraft knowledge, regular practice in handling emergencies....

Flying accurately is nice, but is it really the most important thing?

G

Yes. If you can unconsciously make the aircraft do what you want it to do with out fussing with it or taking a few tries before things settle down then:

- You have lots of time to look out

- You can devote more time and brain cells to keeping situational awareness

- You can handle emergencies better, both in terms of maximizing the aircrafts performance when it is degraded and in being able to get to the aircraft emergency procedures quickly.

The good news is if you make a real effort at flying accurately it becomes a habit and pretty soon, for instance, you realized you haven't checked the altitude for quite awhile because you where dealing with traffic, busy with the map etc etc, but when you look at it the altitude it is pretty much bang on. :ok:

This won't be an accident, it will be because you took that little extra effort to set the proper attitude and power setting and retrimmed the aircraft when it was properly stabilized at cruise airspeed.

The alternative is what I see all the time. The nose is lowered to "approximately" cruise attitude, the power is immediately reduced before the aircraft is stabilized at cruise and few token swipes are given to the trim wheel. A couple of distractions later the pilot looks at his altimeter and he is 3, 4, or 5 hundred feet high/low :rolleyes: