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LVL_CHG
5th Jun 2012, 11:52
Hi all

I graduated from an FTO at the end of last year. I did my IR on a PA34 multi-eng.

I'm wanting to stay current however hiring a PA34 is considerably more than say a PA28. So I need to obtain my SEP.

I've tried a few local clubs websites about how I go about getting the SEP and can't find much.

Do I need to fly a certain amount of hours with an instructor and then do a skills test?

I'm just concerned at how much its going to cost right now!

Thanks in advance!

BackPacker
5th Jun 2012, 12:01
Check LASORS sections F0 and F1. That should contain all the information you need.

mrmum
5th Jun 2012, 20:26
So you throw the thick end of £100k or so at OAA (or CTC or FTE or Cabair or whoever?) and they can't even include a SEP(L) class rating :eek:
I suspect you'll have the minimum experience requirements in a SEP(L) from your CPL course, do you?
Was the flying done in the UK? Not an insurmountable obstacle if not.
So really, it's just some revision if you think it's needed, LST and application & fee to the CAA.

172driver
6th Jun 2012, 10:07
Did you not do any hours in an SEP ??? Didn't think that was possible...

Genghis the Engineer
6th Jun 2012, 10:42
Presumably SEP hours were flown on the integrated course leading to MEP flying, an MEP CPL skill test and MEP/IR skill test, but no SEP skill test?

Anyhow, it's straightforward enough - training as required with an FI or CRI, then an SEP class rating test. Pretty much any school can do that, probably in something rather cheaper and simpler than you've formerly flown. Hopefully an opportunity to discover the fun in flying that you may not have observed much of to date. Just remember that recreational GA flying is a very different place to the airline training you've done to date, so be prepared to do some completely new learning - including learning how to be truly independent in an aeroplane, and learning how to enjoy yourself in the air.

Where in the UK are you? The odds are that somebody on Pprune can sort you out.

I'd be surprised given your training and qualifications if the whole thing costs you more than £500. Quick SEP refresher, type & local brief with an instructor, then a class rating skill test and whatever CAA charge to amend your licence. 2 hours flying and a test fee probably, maybe a little more if you've not flown for a year or so or have never done anything resembling private flying.

G

BackPacker
6th Jun 2012, 10:52
including learning how to be truly independent in an aeroplane

Good point. Most "professional" FTOs put their students into a quasi-multi crew environment straight from the start. Learning to be truly independent, and even having spare mental capacity to deal with a non-flying passenger next to you, is something that's sometimes lacking in CPLs fresh out of the FTO.

(Oh, and in private flying there's no requirement for pilots uniforms...;))

Genghis the Engineer
6th Jun 2012, 10:58
(Oh, and in private flying there's no requirement for pilots uniforms...)

I got bollocked by my CPL instructor for turning up to my CPL skill test in cotton mountain trousers and a polo neck (my normal flying "uniform", albeit usually supplemented by either a flying jacket or a flight-suit).

I still passed. ;)

Interestingly, said FI is now his school CFI and last I bumped into him there, he had turned up in jeans and a rugby shirt :E

We all have a personal rate of learning and progression!

G

mad_jock
6th Jun 2012, 11:05
You would have thought so G but some of these kids have alot of work to do to get them up to standard.

Everything they have done is airline ops. And there SEP flying has been an extremely long time ago.

I you walk into a school with out all those crap (For GA) checklists you were provided with on your course.

Then never mention anything that you have been taught to do previously just do as your told by the local instructor even if you think you know better. Then you might be able to get it out the way in as G describes.

You could off course go and do it at your old school and have less potential hassels, it might turn out cheaper.

Genghis the Engineer
6th Jun 2012, 11:11
There's a business opportunity there Jock!

Do you fancy starting "Jock and Genghis' pilot school" where we teach integrated graduates how to have safe fun in small aeroplanes? Syllabus includes not using printed checklists, flying non-radio, landing at uncontrolled grass strips, refuelling aeroplanes from jerry cans, and mandatory microlight and tailwheel differences training.

G

mad_jock
6th Jun 2012, 11:22
No ta, its like :ugh:

I have had to before had to extract a couple of them from the magenta line borg. Main thing is to sperate them from there checklists and only let them use the normal ones and get the PAPI's turned off or use a runway that doesn't have them. Covering up all the instruments helps as well.

They don't want to be in a light aircraft, they have zero interest in flying it properly.

Genghis the Engineer
6th Jun 2012, 11:29
Sometimes it's not even in your own cockpit!

I was teaching in a CT recently out of an airfield where finals is over a large town. I know the place well.

My philosophy is straightforward - there's only one engine, it has potential to stop, however small a chance, so we come in high, and only start descending when quite sure we can make the runway, or at-least something large flat and green.

I had three PA28s in an hour of circuits do a panicked go-around because the local commercial students couldn't cope with the idea that this aeroplane that had been doing the same speed as them downwind was now doing a 50kn steep glide approach every time. Eventually the tower told me to ignore the noise avoids and fly a much tighter circuit than they publish because of the trouble I was causing by insisting on flying so that if the engine stopped I'd make the runway :ugh:

G

MIKECR
6th Jun 2012, 11:34
Training as required and a skill's test is all thats needed. Had 2 guys last year in very scenario. Both from integrated courses with MEP rating etc but no SEP. Did an hour and a bit at most with both of them before they went for test. Both were excellent, sailed through no problem at all. Total cost was was less than £500 to each of them.

mad_jock
6th Jun 2012, 11:36
Yep

4-6 mile 3 degree glide approaches in a SEP without a thought about whats underneith them.

But they will argue for hours that its "industry standard and best practise" pull the power on them at three miles and they ****e themselves. Be warned if you do that to them they will try and stretch the glide with the better ones getting rid of the flap. Which is of course all the way in at 4 miles because apprently you need to be stabilised by 1000 ft, again industry standard and best practise. It usually ends up they stall in at 2 miles trying to keep the 3 degree glideslope.

And Mike there must be some good ones out there, but alot of it I think depends on who thier instructors are in the US and also there attitude to approaching training outside there training course. As a matter of interest did they turn up with that "book" of a checklist for the PA28? I takes 15 mins to just get up to the point that your ready for departure.

Genghis the Engineer
6th Jun 2012, 11:48
As a matter of interest did they turn up with that "book" of a checklist for the PA28? I takes 15 mins to just get up to the point that your ready for departure.

I have a small collection of those from my modular school as well.

It tells me to turn the Pitot heat on three times before I take off in perfect VMC!

The worst I ever saw however was an otherwise thoroughly well adjusted place that I rented a C172 from in Canada whose checklist was twice the length of the one here at my CPL school. Even the instructor checking me out at-least had the good grace to act embarrassed about it and we both knew it was going in the back the moment the instructor got out.

G

BackPacker
6th Jun 2012, 12:53
Even the instructor checking me out at-least had the good grace to act embarrassed about it

Last year I was being checked out to fly a DR400 at a different airfield, even though I fly DR400s a lot at my home base. But okay, it's their train set, so fair enough.

When I got in I asked "is there an authorized checklist or do we just use common sense here?". "We use common sense here" was the reply.

Sure enough, that aircraft flew just fine without a checklist weighing it down.

FlyingStone
6th Jun 2012, 14:45
100 k€ and you can't even fly a SEP solo? Sounds like a big waste of money to me... I doubt there are many owners/flight school that will allow MEP solo rent to a pilot who has completed integrated training course - so basically, NO solo flying. Really good investment I must say.

mad_jock it's very funny and sad at the same time reading this. Have you seen those guys (modular or integrated who were trained to fly IFR in SEP/MEP as it is done in airliners) fly IFR? Gear down with flaps 25° on Arrow overhead the VOR for a 3 min outbound baseturn :E - "you have to fly it constant speed, otherwise we're not stabilised" and crap like that. Or going around when reaching MDA 2 NM before MAPt, just because it's dangerous to do "dive and drive" - on a 737 perhaps, but on Seneca? := Or stuff like you have to read landing checklist (8+ item for simplicity of course) on final (VFR traffic patterns included) when flying complex aircraft so that you don't forget gear down. I don't know why just simple gear - prop - mixture - flaps works for me - I must be too stupid, since I'm looking outside on final and not reading mandatory checklist. They of course do retract landing gear in SEP/MEP as soon as they have positive rate of climb - regardless of those 2km of runway ahead of them. By the way, did you know you have to use standard 2-minute turns in traffic pattern, since steep turns are prohibited below 3000ft AGL? :ugh:

etc. etc. etc.

BEagle
6th Jun 2012, 17:16
If there's no notional glideslope mandate and you descend at the maximum rate assumed by the procedure design to level at MDA/H, what's the big deal if you're in decent flying practice?

It was good fun doing that on Brize RW26 LCTR approach (no DME) on 3-engines at night on the VC10 as it gave me a good excuse to do a full power go-around overhead the beacon a few hundred yards from the Stn Cdr's bedroom.....:E

Until they banned such things....:uhoh:

mad_jock
6th Jun 2012, 19:17
You see I can't understand that gear down over the top of the beacon going outbound. Its not standard airline practise to fly the outbound that dirty. We have maybe the first stage of flap down or clean and the gear comes down with 1 mile to TOD after the base turn. If you have been sold a stinker by ATC and you at FL100 over the beacon and its not icing, yes get dirty to get the height off. But normally you wouldn't and I wouldn't expect an FO to do it either and wouldn't comment if they wanted a couple of turns around the hold to get the height off. But if they asked if they could they would be allowed to if they had set up the speed to make it possible.

Is there any Jet pilots about to confirm what you do in swept wing aircraft?

Wing_Bound_Vortex
7th Jun 2012, 13:17
Beacon clean or at the most flap 1, keeping that for the base turn, maybe flap 2 just before TOD after the turn, depending on how close in you are to the runway, gear and the rest of the flap at about 4 miles wind depending.

None of this drag it in crap. That's not normal for us ( large European Lo Co )

WBV

Genghis the Engineer
8th Jun 2012, 23:02
Surely any airline will follow whatever procedure burns the least fuel, so long as it's safe, and surely that means gear and flaps as late, not early, as possible.

G

Cobalt
9th Jun 2012, 10:41
And flying schools probably train what gives the highest chances at a skill test pass... if they teach to do stuff too early, it is more likely driven by trying to reduce student workload on the approach (slow --> easy) than any alleged airline operation. But fully configured beacon outbound in an Arrow is silly, that thing cruises slower than its gear limiting speed... other than on the approach, you cannot be too fast in an Arrow.

For my private flying, I try to keep it simple after the FAF, so I aim to be fully configured there to avoid gear/flap changes on the glideslope - unless I am asked to fly faster on the final approach. No point in slowing down too early, it just costs time and money.

mad_jock
9th Jun 2012, 12:15
You don't get a FAF on a ILS glideslope but I know what you mean.

ILS's your normally expect folk to do 210 then 180 on base and 160 to 4 in bigger things.

None precision is very dependent of the person flying it. Those with more capacity will do the same speeds others its better to get configured and do as you say run it in without unstabilising things. I am the same as you if we will be going down to near mins. Might as well get your hand loaded with all the high cards and your just going to have to do it again if you make a pigs ear of it.

Cobalt
10th Jun 2012, 19:48
You don't get a FAF on a ILS glideslope but I know what you mean.

I shall wash out my mouth for using FAA terminology and resolve to call it the Final Approach Point in ICAO-speak from now on... :} but yes, for ILS I actually mean neither, but the GS intercept.

Interesting that you use 160kt on final - that explains why Brussels wants us little'uns to maintain 160kt until the OM... which is good fun, but only if you have speedbrakes or can put the gear down at these speeds...

mad_jock
10th Jun 2012, 20:10
Those speeds are pretty standard to be honest.

If you have a look at most large airports they are in the AIP plates.

If you do those speeds you hardly ever get speed controlled.

160knts is our gear extension limit.

Its still FAF in ICAO and JAR speak as well its just you only get them for NPA's If you look at say a ILS only plate or a CAT II ILS plate you won't have the little star at the top of decent or somewhere else. That star when it is there is for the LOC approach.

Cobalt
10th Jun 2012, 20:41
The US use the term FAF for precision approaches as well, but they mark them with a little flash symbol [instead of the cross for the NPA, and other than Jepp which do not have that flash]. Their definition is that it is the GS intercept at the lowest published platform altitude for the approach.

And the only reason I remember this useless detail is that I did my JAR IR first and only ever used Jepp plates. For the FAA checkride some time later, I was examined on the FAA plates, and that was one of the things I did not know in the oral...

mad_jock
10th Jun 2012, 20:48
:D never heard of it before.