Cessna 172 IFR training screens

[steve3]

Has anybody got any screens they no longer use that woud fit a C172 or would be willing to let me use them as a template to make my own?

Thanks in advance

[sevenstrokeroll]

what do you mean by IFR training screens? Mind you, I'm a CFIIMEIATP.

[S-Works]

sevenstrokeroll - Mind you, I'm a CFIIMEIATP.

What's that got to do with it?

Steve3, I have a set in the hanger. Pm me and you are welcome to borrow them.

[steve3]

Hi Bose

You have a PM - thanks

[Treadstone1]

Hi

Same question but regarding a PA28 Warrior.

Thanks.

[Tinstaafl]

Sevenstroke..,

In the UK, slatted screens (much like vertical window blinds, but fixed and not flexible) are used to simulate IMC. They're placed over the side windows & windscreen to prevent the student from seeing outside. The slats are oriented to prevent the student from seeing out while letting the instructor see through the slots. The ones I've seen have to be fitted before flight.

For take-off & landing there's a small window in the screen that can be removed or opened, giving a somewhat similar view to looking through a windscreen that's deiced with a hotplate.

[Ralis]

We all use the hoods and they work fine, cost bugger all and not to mention can be removed with a flick of the wrist which I would consider safer.

[Centaurus]

We all use the hoods and they work fine,
Meaning of course one can occasionally sneak a furtive glance outside to see the horizon and thus make `instrument` flying easier?

[FOUR REDS]

The (UK) IR test requires an Approved Aircraft with Approved Instrument Screen installation. Once approved this removable screen set can then be re-used on further occassions.

[Tinstaafl]

I wonder that two stage screens aren't used. They used to be mentioned in the Oz rules as one way meet the view limiting requirements. A transparent yellow coating or screen on the windows + transparent blue glasses for the student. The combination is difficult to see through but is relatively transparent individually. The instructor can see outside & inside, but the student can only see inside.

[A37575]

I wonder that two stage screens aren't used.

First time I have heard about these screens for years and years and years!. We used them in Wirraways and Dakotas in the RAAF and they were called Two-Stage Amber. Best simulated instrument flying I have ever used. You can't cheat unless you lifted your blue tinted goggles and then the instructor would quickly catch you. In the Wirraway, we did spinning on limited panel using these two stage amber screens. I have often wondered why someone never got around to designing similar devices for flying school types.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I seldom post on these forums anymore, but every once and a while there is a subject so important I just feel I should comment.

For decades I have asked the same question here in Canada.

" Why is two stage amber no longer used in instrument flight training? "

Never ever received any useful answer except maybe I am from the cave man era of flying and the industry has improved immensely since the days two stage amber was used.

One of the brighter lights in flight training did say Transport Canada won't allow it because the amber film in the windshield and side windows interferes with the instructor seeing outside.

Why do snow skiers use amber lenses for better visibility?

[Whopity]

Two stage screens polarize light and with the possibility of reducing the visibility of the instructor/safety pilot so their use was prohibited in the UK.

[A37575]

Two stage screens polarize light and with the possibility of reducing the visibility of the instructor/safety pilot so their use was prohibited in the UK.

Never heard of that one before. The two stage amber screens were used in Australia during and after the war and were universal in flying schools before gradually being replaced by other sorts of simulation. I am not sure what is meant by polarising light though. After all the instructor didn't wear the blue goggles and he could easily see though the amber screens that were clipped to the inside of the front and side windows.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Interesting.

Several things come to mind when remembering how amber lenses or amber film changed what I was looking at.

With amber Ray Ban sunglasses objects became clearer in reduced visibility such as cloudy dull days and misty days....I found the same to be true when using two stage amber when riding as instructor pilot for IFR training.

[puthukeril]

Hi,

Can anyone tell me, if additional aircraft instrument requirements such as an auto pilot, chart reader and a push to talk button as per CARS is mandatory for IFR training flight in IMC for non commercial purposes ? Can the same be used for a guy who is IFR group 1 rated fly a rental C-172 into IMC without the autopilot or chart reader ? I know pTT is a must apart from all the other basic instrument requirements mentioned in CARS part 6.
An answer would be great !!! thanks

[Whopity]

I am not sure what is meant by polarising light though.Polarisation describes the direction that the light wave is vibrating. An undisturbed light wave will be vibrating in random, constantly changing, but different mediums and filters can polarise light in different ways, by restricting the directions which it can vibrate in. This means that the light coming out the other side will be different than that which went in.

Colour filters are essentially cross polarising the light to create no vision. The safety pilot is looking through a polarising filter.

It is recommended that pilots do not wear Polarising sunglasses(From the FAA regarding polarized glasses)
Polarized lenses are not recommended for use in the aviation environment. While useful for blocking reflected light from horizontal surfaces such as water or snow, polarization can reduce or eliminate the visibility of instruments that incorporate anti-glare filters. Polarized lenses may also interfere with visibility through an aircraft windscreen by enhancing striations in laminated materials and mask the sparkle of light that reflects off shiny surfaces such as another aircraft’s wing or windscreen, which can reduce the time a pilot has to react in a “see-and-avoid” traffic situation. (Airliners.net, 2009)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I typed the wrong words whopity.

I am not sure what is meant by polarizing light though.

I understand the meaning of polarizing, the problem I have is I do not remember any " polarizing " effects from the amber film we used in the Cessna 140's we did the instrument training in.

Then that is no surprise as it was over fifty years ago. :E

I guess it must have been a risk using that method or the " authorities " would never have banned it.

Remember how much safer you are in today's world of aviation when walking on an airport as long as you have the " hi-vis " safety vest " on thanks to the vigilance of the " authorities ". :rolleyes:

I was on of the lucky ones to have survived so many years having never worn one. :ok:

[sevenstrokeroll]

tinstaffl

thanks for explaining the screen stuff to me. and to BOSE...my certificates are expressed so that those answering the question will know my level in aviation.

Quite frankly those screens sound awful in terms of safety. The instructor must have a clear view to avoid other traffic. A small ''hood'' worn on the head of a pilot is just fine. I didn't ''cheat'' and when I was instructing could easily tell if someone was ''cheating''. Why should someone cheat? You want to learn how to fly and not how to ''cheat''.

The inventors of ''blind flying'' Jimmy Doolittle, had a giant hood over the entire cockpit of his plane...his ''safety" pilot had his own cockpit completely uncovered.

I laughed at the idea of having a view the size of a hotplate melted area on the windshield. When we do ''instrument takeoffs" we line up on the runway, set the DG, and its hood down, off we go into the wild gray yonder. No looking out a hotplate sized area on the windscreen.

For the checkride, its hood down at 100'.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Note:

The following are my own personal thoughts on flight training and I may be completely wrong in my thought process....so cut me some slack in your replies if any. ;)

The wearing of a " hood " is unorthodox for the simple reason it changes ones total picture of your surroundings which is the inside of the aircraft you are flying.

If wearing a hood is the best method of flying by reference to only the instruments why is it not mandatory to wear a hood in IMC during all IFR flights?

Personally I refused to put one on during my check rides when I was renewing my IFR rating, only one inspector ever insisted I wear one , so I just cancelled the flight test and requested another inspector.

When I explained my reason for cancelling the test to the head of the instrument flight testing department there was no problem at all getting an inspector who could examine my ability to fly IFR without me being forced to wear a device that to me was unorthodox.

[sevenstrokeroll]

a hood is an imperfect device to simulate the IMC environment in a controlled situation...it is cheap, effective and allows the safety pilot/instructor to keep an eye out for traffic.

I know some people who have put a pillow in the front windshield and deem it satisfactory to limit the view of the pilot being tested.

I actually took a great portion of my IFR checkride in actual cloud, but I was under the hood too, as , in real world flying you may break in and out of cloud.

It isn't perfect, but it is adequate. My biggest concern was constantly checking my whiskey compass with the DG. the compass being in plain view of the horizon...so I would simply ask instructor or examiner: compass check?

DG's were not that good then.

[Tinstaafl]

Seven, the instructor would have a great view. It's just a transparent, non-polarised yellow tint, much like yellow sunglasses. The student, however, has to wear blue tinted glasses (something like 'foggles' but a transparent blue instead of stranslucent white). It's the combination of both tints that stops the wearer from seeing out. Each can see just fine through a single colour but not through both.

If you think a transparent screen is bad, try the slatted screens in common use in the UK!

[Aware]

I was under the impression that screens were to be done away with under EASA ? In mainland Europe ie FIS Spain etc they do not use them, even for an initial IR test, not sure if that happens here yet. I see you do not need ac approved for the a test in UK anymore.

[Sillert,V.I.]

For the checkride, its hood down at 100'.

Once during training for my IMCr, my instructor had me perform a simulated 0/0 takeoff - the hood was down as soon as I'd got comfortably lined up.

It was easily the most challenging exercise I've ever done in a PA38. I was concentrating so hard to maintain runway heading on the ground that the transition to flight had me wobbling all over the place in both pitch & roll. I'd got it nailed by 200' but I certainly learned a lesson about the dangers of losing visual reference before establishing the initial climb.