no LJ60 jobs anymore?

[aviatn]

Hello fellow colleagues,
Where have the LJ60 jobs disappeared to? I am PIC rated on a JAA license with over 5000h TT but can’t find new employment. Is it just me or were more jobs available just about one year ago?

[No RYR for me]

Most 45s have or will be gone out of Europe in the next few years and the 60 is not doing much better... Last operator I worked for that had them was unable to fly them profitably compared to the XLS.. So went all Cessna. I think the 85 is the only hope in Lear country...

[Cyberdragon]

What about TAG, Vista or Perfect?

[aviatn]

I updated my CV with TAG and Vista and received either no or a negative reply.

[epsum]

Simplejets in RIX (Look "looking for work thread"), Classic 60.
Rusjet in VKO searched month or so ago crew for classic 60.
ABS Jet(?) in PRG searched 60XR Captain.
Avies in TLL has lately searched classic 60 captain.

Since 60 fits perfectly up to 5 hours flights for couple of pax it fits perfectly for flights between Eastern Europe to West.

[Captain Kaboom]

Hi Epsum,

Those companies you mentioned have been advertising forever.

They are searching for a capt working 20/10 willing to fly for a 4000 euros per month.
The one in RIX wants you even to move.

The opportunity in Warsaw is advertised about everywhere, I have been approached several times for this position but they never had the decency to reply after I stated my (modest) salary expectations.

And other companies searching, well, if you don't even pay your pilots the promised minimum you need pilots every 2 months or so.

It is absolutely disturbing to experience so many operators that simply don't pay.

So yes, there are 60 jobs but you don't get paid.

[lear60fellow]

FYI and how to avoid these ridiculous companies, this is the info I have for a captain position.

Rusline: 3000€/net, roster 20/10, share an apartment in Moscow in the middle of nowhere.

Flyjet Poland: 5000€/net, you have to invoice them as a limited company with VAT (so they avoid any problems if you have a problem). roster 20/10. Apartment in Warsaw. Fly till you fall to the ground

Vistajet: 6000€/net, roster 17/13, ****ty 3 star hotels, no breakfast, no internet, no onboard food, nothing at all, fly as hell.

Simplejet. Avoid them at all

Estonian companies: stay away...

And also the private LR60´s with IOM or VP registration, they don´t even pay peanuts.

[wondering]

Vistajet: 6000€/net - 6k is certainly gros, not net.

[lear60fellow]

sorry, all salaries above are gross, not net, bit confused...

[lear60fellow]

Forgot to say, avoid latest jobs for ACASS, one in Lybia (still shootings in the city) and the other in Nigeria (want to spend 2 weeks in jail?)..

[mutt]

Just read an ad on 350.com for Lj60 crew in UAE.....

Mutt

[wondering]

Think that´s the same on flightdeckrecruitment.com. Based in Sharjah, 5000 total, 1500PIC on LR60, max age 58.

BTW, don´t use websites which require a fee. := Dunno why employers still use those 'services'. :confused: There are plenty of free job websites.

[Bizflight]

Try out this.....

Job Description

Our international VIP aviation client require Learjet 60XR PIC & SIC's for their operation.

Operational Duties
Responsible for the safety of the airplane, its clients, the crew, and any cargo on board
Examine the aircraft's control equipment
Determine the weather and flight conditions
Chart the airplane's route and compute the flying time
Report to air-route control stations by radio
Report problems as they arise
After landing, file a flight report

Personal Duties
Display a high degree of professionalism and integrity
Promote goodwill by being courteous, friendly and helpful to clients, managers and fellow employees


POSITION REQUIREMENTS
Interpersonal Skills
Excellent interpersonal skills evidenced by the ability to work and communicate effectively with all levels of management and employees
Demonstrate leadership and management skills and ability to work as part of an integrated management team
Strong ethical standards and an appropriate professional image
Advanced ability to problem-solve and react positively to all types of difficult situations
Excellent command of English language

You will be home based and on duty for your relevant rosters which will be 16 days on and 14 days off, included in your 14 days off will be medicals, visas, training etc.

There is no base as such for pilots, you just need to be near a gateway airport and they would report into Munich where the post-holders are based.

If interested, please send your CV and the following documents: Valid Pilot Licence, Valid Medical Certificate, Passport, Recent logbook pages
Contact : [email protected]
Website : Ashton Consulting - Homepage (http://www.ashton-consulting.co.uk)

I cross the fingers for you.

And if you know any job on Challenger 300 (preferable PIC) do not hesitate to contact me :-)

Kind regards,

BF

[lear60fellow]

This last one is Imperial Jet...

By the way, look at the T&C´s from Vistajet

.- 3 months contract
.- Captain 6000 euros gross (+/- 3.700 net)
.- Per diem 40€
.- Hotel 3*, no breakfast included, no internet, no laundry...
.- No meals on board even if you are flying the whole day, get your own sandwich from the supermarket
.- Trainning, recurrent, meetings...all in off days
.- Roster 17/13, 13 include positioning, trainning, meetings, medical...
.- Expect China as base for long range fleets.

BUT WE HAVE NEW AIRCRAFTS!!!!!

Seriously, you will make more money working at McDonals.

[aviatn]

Thank you for all replies!!! I truly appreciate your advice and tips! :D

[CaptainProp]

I belong to what some would call the "vocal" group of pilots, and I always did. I am all for speaking up, defending and working against the erosion of the T&Cs in our business, and on one occasion I paid a very high price for trying to stop the BS that was going on.....

Having said that, should we all try to be a bit realistic around here?

First of all, I am still surprised when people ask questions / make statements like "6k is certainly gross, not net."

When comparing salaries using anything else than gross salary is just wrong as each and every one of us have a different tax status, depending on social status (married, not married, children, no children etc), possible deductions for house loans, double residency, country of residency etc etc.

What do you guys consider a "fair" salary, never mind market situation, financial melt down etc, just a "fair" salary for a L60 Captain?

Because as far as I see it the €5000-€6000 stated here by some of you seems pretty much right were its "supposed" to be for a regular L60 line Captain....

Before someone shoots me down, and possibly comes up with fantasy numbers, just have a look at these numbers ok?

From 2011 Pro Pilot Salary survey:

US corporate L60 CPT per month :
Av - €6.1K
Low - €4.9K
High - €7.7K

US biz charter/fractional:
Av - €5.5K
Low - €4.5K
High - €7K

International corporate / charter is quoted as being just below the numbers for US corporate.

€5-6000 seems to be average to just above average.....?

Highest L60 pay I have heard of personally so far comes out to about €7K / month.

No internet included? This is standard for most companies today. Most hotels have complimentary IT anyway, if not, as soon as you reach gold/platinum (or whatever) status its for free anyway.

No laundry? Again, not saying its right or wrong, but I think this is pretty much industry standard....

Not flying L60, nor am I working for Vista, but per diem of €40 is not true for any company using DE/AT government "standard" per diem. They vary depending on the country you are night stopping in. France, UK and the Scandinavian countries are between €40 and €60, with the exception for Norway where it's €72. Hong Kong for example is also around €70. Lots of countries below €40 as well though.....

Again, not great, but that's the way it is.....if they paid more you would have to pay tax on your per diem anyway as far as I understand...?

Seriously, you will make more money working at McDonalds.

No you wouldn't. At McDonalds you would be on about €7 per hour....in other words - If you worked 8 hr days, 20 days per month you would get €1100 + 15-something % over time pay for weekends....

Keep it real guys and gals. :ok:

CP

[Globalstream]

True regarding gross vs net salaries, tax status can dramatically alter the financial picture.

Nevertheless, I`ve consistently found US wages weaker than their European counterparts and therefore Pro Pilot survey to be unhelpful. Mid-size, Lear 60 I would have said would be closer to 8-10 gross.

Laundry- If your trip exceeds a reasonably sized bag`s capacity, the company should pay. That would run about 5 days imo. Of course the difficulty might be finding 24 hours to turn it around!

Internet- Build it into the per-diem or pay it with the room. Such a small expense to keep pilots in touch with home, especially on long range aircraft. By my estimate 0.03% of an annual budget at the top end.

Personally, I`ve yet to work for a company that didn`t require me to access the internet frequently on my trips.

[lear60fellow]

6.000€ gross is the lowest salary I´ve seen on the LJ60, low range is 7.000, Personally I´ve never been below 9.000€ gross in 6 years. Per diems is 40€, yes, 40€ at Vistajet, lowest I´ve seen in my life, normal is 70€ to 100€.

Hotels always 4* or better, no ****ty holiday xpress in the middle of nowhere and yes, I´ve been in bad hotels in many places but those were the best in town.

When you claim you are the best in the business, when you claim you have orders for 30 new aircrafts, when I know they charge double per flight hour that others in the business you can not come and say " We are going to pay you ****, we are going to exploit you, we have to pay these new aircrafts".

I´ve been too long in this business to know who is lier and who is a ghost, it´s too much for me.

[RFGN]

@lear60fellow

Hello, is this for 20/10 or 15/15?

R

[wondering]

Obviously some ppl aren´t clear about gros vs net or just made a translation error. I was just hinting that there must be a gros/net error. Whatever the case, it only makes sense to compare gros salaries including any form of additional benefits as is often the case in the US.

That brings me to the Pro Pilot salary survey. US salary comparison is just that. The salary itself does not include the monetary benefits like 401K, health insurance, company car, stock options, lol or what ever else is offered; if offered at all. Big differences for sure. And big differences between corporate and charter. There is no such differentiation in the international part.

Besides, the international part of the salary comparison includes all foreign countries combined and not just Western Europe. With the limited number of foreign respondents, I suspect second and third world countries drag the average down. Imho, it would make more sense to split the international part into regions with similar purchasing power. Just because the Euro has appreciated the last ten years vs the US dollar doesn´t mean Europeans are now better of. I remember when a Euro bought less than one US dollar. Were Americans so much better paid than Europeans back then? I don´t think so.

And even within Western Europe are big differences. Just compare Switzerland vs Germany. And that´s not only true for pilot salaries. Statistics, like the Pro Pilot salary survey, always has it´s limitations.

[CaptainProp]

@ Globalstream and l60f - I have to say that if the salaries you are quoting are correct I believe you have been lucky getting in to some very good gigs and that's great for you guys. Having said that, I don't think that's a "standard" L60 salary in Europe....

As I have stated on another thread here on PPRuNe the "never been below 9.000€ gross", as l60f is talking about, is a Falcon 900 / CL605 minimum pay in my book. Just my opinion, but I think I have a fairly good feeling of what the going rates are.

@ Globalstream - Yes, the salaries in EU are usually a bit higher than in the US that's why I stated the International pay as well....

International corporate / charter is quoted as being just below the numbers for US corporate.


....and as you can see that's not the case here... Not my numbers, its all according to Pro Pilot Salary Survey.

CP

[CaptainProp]

That brings me to the Pro Pilot salary survey. US salary comparison is just that. The salary itself does not include the monetary benefits like 401K, health insurance, company car, stock options, lol or what ever else is offered; if offered at all. Big differences for sure. And big differences between corporate and charter. There is no such differentiation in the international part.


Corporate and charter are separated in the survey.

How many companies today (in EU) are offering any of those benefits? With the exception of health insurance, very few I would say.

And even within Western Europe are big differences. Just compare Switzerland vs Germany. And that´s not only true for pilot salaries. Statistics, like the Pro Pilot salary survey, always has it´s limitations.

Correct, but it gives an indication at least, the truth is probably somewhere in between....

I still stand by my opinion that €9.000-€10.000 for a L60 Captain is not realistic in Europe today.

CP

[wondering]

Corporate and charter are separated in the survey.


Oops, missed the differentiation.


How many companies today (in EU) are offering any of those benefits? With the exception of health insurance, very few I would say.

Exactly my point. That makes it difficult to compare US vs Europe 1:1.

I still stand by my opinion that €9.000-€10.000 for a L60 Captain is not realistic in Europe today.

I reckon it´s on the high side as well. Heard CHF 11-12K in Switzerland plus 100-120 per diems. That´s around EUR 9-10K plus per diems. But, I can´t image many other European operators being close unless one flies for a private flight department which holds its pilots in high regard.

[Thanos1970]

Just saw this today, good luck

Learjet 60XR PIC & SIC Opportunities-Latest Pilot Jobs-Latest Pilot Jobs (http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/1574.html)

[aviatn]

Thank you for your replies guys!!
I too think a gross salary of 9000 - 10000 Euros is not very realistic in Europe,
considering the current environment.
A friend and colleague used to earn this, but years ago, before this international financial mess developed we seem to be in.
Happy landings!!

[jtr]

PM'd you........................

[Black Sheep]

Any info on FAI (Nuernberg)- Lear 55/60; FO/cpt?

tnx

[Denim and leather]

Hello,

Do you have any infos regarding; Unijet RU ?
You may PM me.


Cheers.

[aviatn]

I haven't been in contact with FAI for quite some time.
Sorry, can't help you in this regard.