HKAOA Out of control..

[777300ER]

What is the point of paying membership dues when the organisation is slicing itself into pieces? Without unity, a union/association is worthless...

Although I don't like it, I think it may be time to face the reality and capitulate. I've paid for nothing for long enough...

[geh065]

Maybe "nothing" is a good thing. Perhaps without the AOA, things would descend into a very rapid decline. That isn't a risk I am willing to take, quite frankly. The insurance is also pretty attractive.

[cxorcist]

777-300ER,

So we have one, perhaps temporary, setback and you are ready to cut bait and run. I'm not sure you are the type of member we need anyhow. Hope you can get that Canadian base sometime soon so you can join those making the same decision you are. Make sure you turn in your lanyard when you resign and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Yet another spineless CX pilot!!! When will we ever learn?

[777300ER]

777-300ER,

So we have one, perhaps temporary, setback and you are ready to cut bait and run. I'm not sure you are the type of member we need anyhow. Hope you can get that Canadian base sometime soon so you can join those making the same decision you are. Make sure you turn in your lanyard when you resign and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Yet another spineless CX pilot!!! When will we ever learn?

I had a feeling I would get this type of reply. Let me start by saying that I have been through far more than "one" setback since I became a member. I am fully aware that its a game of ups and downs, however this setback is different.

One of the primary issues among the membership over the years has been unity, or lack thereof. Different members have different agendas. This is somewhat normal, however in our case we have allowed these differences to divide us from a collective bargaining standpoint. Because of this weakness (which is engineered by the company to some extent), our ability to band together and make significant achievements has been weak at best. This latest development takes the problem one step further by expanding the divide to include our leadership. Not only that, but it is apparent from the latest updates that these divisions have been ongoing for some time now which means that resources which could have been used productively have been wasted. Anyone that isn't deeply concerned by this needs to give their head a shake.

Now with that all said, NO I'm not actually going to quit. I'm just venting my frustration. I've felt this way a few times over the years, but ultimately I agree with you. Things may not get better any time soon, but leaving the AOA certainly won't help the situation.

[nitpicker330]

Seems to me that you should ask your Canadian mates why they decided to leave the AOA umbrella, unlike AOAAUS. :cool:

HKAOA didn't kick them out.

[bellcrank88]

So how is the setting terms and conditions that you know are unacceptable any different than kicking someone out?

The Canadians cannot accept that the collective agreement isn't closed until all global issues are settled. Period. Full Stop.

HKAOA pulls a big hissy fit, := takes their toys and goes home. Dennis told them that is how the game works. No compromise.

[Frogman1484]

No mate it is the canadian aoa that has caused this...not the HKAOA:ugh:

[Westcoastcapt]

I think Mr Frogman, you will find that you are wrong. It was the HKAOA that delivered an ultimatum. The Canadian base requires closure on their negotiations for a variety of reasons. Full stop. The HKAOA didn't want that.

I, and many of my colleagues, support this decision. In fact, many of us were growing tired of the HKAOA not properly representing those of us on the base.

[boxjockey]

WCC,

Best of luck, and such a shame. Like children in a daycare.....

box

[cxorcist]

Why does the AOA Canada require finishing the CBA ASAP? Do they think this will secure the base from closure? Will it? Are there other reasons?

[Westcoastcapt]

I will answer your questions. It is rather simple, really.

The contract offered to us in no way meets the requisite Canadian standard. It is vague and makes fleeting references to the Canadian Labour Code. Probably of more importance there are a number of issues detailed in the revised contract that must be clarified sooner rather than later. That is all, nothing sinister. And, no, the team are not negotiating one off benefits for the Canadian Based pilots.

We on the Canadian base need closure, not a run on vague contract that is dependent on the HKAOA resolving many of their own issues. Many, that will take years to resolve.

So there you have it. And no, the base is not going to close.

[cxorcist]

WCC,

So the next logical question is... What happens when the HKAOA does negotiate different "Global Issues" rules to the ones in the Canadian CBA? Will the company be required to administer two different sets of rules? We have already seen what happens when base administration becomes overly "complex" - a la AMS. Does this increase the security of the base or decrease it?

I think the assumption that the two Canadian bases cannot and will not close is foolhardy. The company will play the Canadian based pilots against the rest of the group as much as possible. Do you really think the threat of base closure will not be part of this?

[airplaneridesrfun]

SK is behind all of this. It is his greatest achievement yet. Nobody has to wonder why he got permission to move back to Canada; the truth is slowly coming out now!

[Bob Hawke]

Jizz, that's interesting, because if AOAC have signed off on things like the freighter Pxing and they come to HKG; if they do, then those guys will be the one's doing the Pxing. I can just see the company saying they agreed to that during on shoring agreement, therefor it still applies.

Actually an agreement made under the Canadian Labor laws would be invalid here anyway, unless of course they agreed whilst based in Canada, or any OTHER base within the CX network, then perhaps they may have to live with freighter PXing forever?

In any case, we should just continue to resolve the PXing issue as if they weren't part of it.

[cxorcist]

Bob H,

They (Canadians) are not a part of it, not anymore. This was what they chose. Let them work their own deal. If they want to end up doing all the DAC/HAN freighter patterns and similar crap, so be it. They want to save the YVR freighter captain base, this might just be the cost.

No ill-will, but they get what they ask for... Being separated from the whole will definitely cost them in more ways than we/they can imagine. I think a time will come when they come crawling back to the HKAOA table.

[Westcoastcapt]

For cxorcist,
I do enjoy a meaty discussion, but admit I miss poking the anonymous name callers.

Ah, Global Issues. It is naive to think that CX will not negotiate different terms for the various groups. There are already countless contracts and conditions so CX is getting good at it. Just add a few more clerks at HKD 6000 a month. Easy. Remember, the Canadian base has the benefit of much stricter labour laws than that of HKG. And an employer is required by law to negotiate in good faith. None of this take it or leave it nonsense. Now that we are a separate entity, we are free to negotiate whatever we feel is in the best interest of our members. Your leadership has seen to that. As a cohesive group, CX had an obligation to treat each group the same, but again the recent HKAOA decision put an end to that. Imagine how the HKG membership will feel about their esteemed committee when our benefits surpass yours. What better way to undermine the HKG union than offer something better to the Canadian base. What will you do, go on strike. Ha ha

AMS is a very poor example as there were very few members there. Shut down the base, in fact I would be disappointed if CX didn't suggest that. It is CX negotiating 101. I know that many of you find comprehensive thought a challenge but imagine this if you will. After reaching a fairly negotiated contract, bargained in good faith by both parties, CX decides to shut the base on Jan 01 as Jizz baby as suggested. Imagine the severance package, I love it. 365 G days, yeah baby! Where are the keys to the boat, I 'm outta here.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

[cxorcist]

WCC,

Please understand, I wish no ill-will towards the Canadians post break-away. In fact, I hope you see all kinds of improvements both for yourselves and to provide pressure for our own. That said, I think there is a fair amount of naïveté in this decision that will become obvious over time.

[BuzzBox]

It's all very well having better labor laws, better conditions and iron clad contracts, etc, but just remember this: bases will continue to exist only if the company sees a long term benefit for the business.

Closing the bases will obviously cause some short term pain, but if the company decides (rightly or wrongly) that the long term benefits are greater, then guess what???

[grind king]

This has nothing to do with base closure, but more to do with Canadian CBA negotiation rules. When the CBA is as close to being closed as the Canadian one and then the AOAC decide to pull back to deal with "Global Issues" for our Federation brothers on other bases it can be seen as not bargaining in good faith. In which case it COULD lead to a worst case scenario of a lock out of Canadian pilots. Would our HK brothers stand with their Canadian colleagues if this were to happen? Would 888 and 838 still be manned? This is a process of Canadianizing our current COS and ensuring we have the labour protections available to us that come with having a ratified CBA, this does not mean that "Global Issues" will not still be addressed at he appropriate time.

The reason the OZ bases are not in the same position as the Canadians is that there negotiations are far behind the Canadians. It will be interesting to see how things pan out for them when they catch up.

I do hope in due time that cooler heads may prevail or possibly a change in leadership that will result in a new more balanced federation that will benefit all the pilots regardless of base.

[iceman50]

A question, Does Canadian Labour Law allow furlough?

[Blogsey]

I am constantly amazed and disappointed with my colleagues that they would discuss internal issues in a public forum.
:ugh:

[AnAmusedReader]

Are you saying that DD is behind this? Some others are saying this. Apparently he spat his dummy and resigned as gensec of AOAC a few months ago after falling out with the Canadian negotiating team.

[Liam Gallagher]

I know, well you have told me, that you are a superior intellectual life form to us "anonymous name callers", but you float the idea of Canadian Strike.

Using your super-computer-like intellect, how do think a Canadian strike would play out? Would the company not roster the other 2000 pilots to cover your 200 rosters? We have no loyality to you as you are not an affiliated union. Who do think is going to blink first? Cathay faced with an overtime bill or a CanadIan faced with a mortgage foreclosure.

You have thought this through,...... right?

[Mr. Bloggs]

Sorry Liam, affiliated or not there is no loyalty within the Cathay Pacific Pilot Group. I learned this the hard way back in 1999 and 2001.

Many pilots say one thing in public but when it comes time to vote, it goes the other way. Funny thing how that works.

If any based got locked out or went on strike other bases will do the flying into that base. If they refused, CX will fire them individually or en masse. We then know what happens next. I think the Canadians or any other base realize this.

[cxorcist]

Bloggs,

I would like to think that this group has learned from its past failures and would do the right thing given the opportunity again. That said, it would be very difficult to put my job on the line for a group that chose to cut itself away from the whole, regardless their grievance. For now, they stand alone...

[Liam Gallagher]

Point well missed.

I am referring to Westcoastcapt's comment, "what will you do, go on strike ha ha."

Westcoastcapt is again thumbing his nose at others, talking up the value of Canadian labour law, when the reality is clearly different. His self-proclaimed superior intellect prevents him from realizing this.

[Westcoastcapt]

Mr Liam,

Like many of your posts, I'm not sure what you are talking about. Seems like others don't either. Thanks for the compliment regarding my supposed intellect.

No one in this organization will ever go on strike, nor will the pilot group stand up as a whole to defend each other. We learned that lesson very well a number of years ago. I guess you missed my subtle humor.

That has been the thrust of my argument from the start. There is always much bravado in anonymous posts but the reality is somewhat different.

Relatively new here?

[Cumguzzler]

Westcoastcapt,

Since you seem to have some inside info about the whole process, maybe you could share with rest of us how you will handle PX'ng on the freighters?

I heard you will agree to it (with no changes to the current credit time) just to save YVR as freighter base...

[Steve the Pirate]

Mr Westcoastcapt

In your posts you often refer to the anonymous name-calling which is a feature of this site and, I agree, it's puerile. What you seem to overlook, however, is that the impact of your posts is lessened by your often condescending tone - name-calling in another guise. This is unfortunate as I'm sure you have some valid arguments but these will be disregarded if they are interspersed with barely concealed contempt for those you are trying to persuade that your point of view has some validity worthy of their consideration.

I have a question: will the Canadians still be wearing their lanyards and, assuming the answer is yes, what effect, if any, do you think that this will have on the cockpit working environment should the other pilot be wearing a different lanyard?

STP

[Benny Hill]

...as I said before, you will be sold out.....

Ding Ding Ding!!! CX Management: 49+(and counting); CX Pilot Unity: ZERO

The third floor is probably reading this, smoking cigars, laughing their ass off, counting their bonusi'.

You lot are a bunch of numptys. Though it doesn't benefit me, im glad to see AOAC looking out for their best interest, the HKAOA sure wouldn't be..

[Hedo Rick]

Air Hong Kong
Hong Kong Airlines
Hong Kong Express
Dragon Air
Cathay Pacific
Corporate Pilots

Should all be part of one union - PERIOD :ugh:

[Five Green]

What I want to I know is how such a fundamental change in our organization could come about without any input from members. Canadians or HKAOA members.

FG

[Liam Gallagher]

I think you need to re-boot your superior intellect. I cannot understand how you, or anyone else, could have interpreted my post as promoting the idea of any loyality within the Cathay workforce.

When I wrote, "We have no loyality to you.." what do you think I meant?

I am acutely aware of the history of the AOA and the pretend loyality that exists. The poor relationship between AOA Canada and the rest of the AOA now means that no one will even bother to pretend.

Your confusion appears to extend to your belief that the company's obligation to negotiate equates to an obligation to agree. The company don't have to agree to your demands, so when negotiations fail, what are you going to do? Beg.....

[FERetd]

Could this be the reincarnation of Canadian Pacific?

[Good Business Sense]

Pilots are thick !!!

Who do you think manufactured this scenario ?

[Frogman1484]

So let me get this right.

If AOA Canada goes on strike, we in hkg do not or cannot support them. Do we then have to man the flights to Vancouver and Toronto as per Cx orders.:D

This sounds silly but im sure that is what Cx has in mind in the future. :ugh:

What about future court cases. If the Canadians need to take Cx to court, who is going to pay for it...sounds expensive concidering the limited numbers on the base. :{

[cxorcist]

That's taking things a little too far, Jizz. I hope you were kidding???

[Iron Skillet]

HKG-based crew always operate flight to YYZ/YVR and that will continue regardless of AOAC members' actions and inactions. Other than refusing to PX on freighters (as per COS), nobody will ever refuse to fly anywhere, anytime, and everyone knows it - unless everyone refused together - we know that's never going to happen either.

[Westcoastcapt]

Chaps,

AOA Canada just wants to settle their contract negotiations and you already are talking about contingencies in the event of a strike. Who is going to fly and who won't. Amazing! I love it. You all should get out more.

[Frogman1484]

Did the AOA canada actually think this through. It sounds like there where very short sighted in pushing for this!

[raven11]

West Coast Captain

I have agreed with many of your posts in the past......most of which were well thought out and informative. However, your posts on this thread have taken on a different tone. Please have a re-read of your posts on this thread. Is the triumphalism, sarcasm and insulting tone really necessary?

I suggest you may be driving away your natural allies......people whose support you might need should your bargaining with Cathay start to resemble what has happened recently with bargaining at Air Canada.

You are obviously a senior Captain and probably in a position to happily accept a generous severance package and go "boating" (as you claim on page one of this thread). But do the junior members of your Union feel the same way?

Think about it.....

[AnAmusedReader]

No problem. Any legal cases would be undertaken using Canadian law not HK's. Under Canadian labor law the process would be quicker and, most importantly, quite inexpensive.

[Westcoastcapt]

Raven 11,

Hard to believe that someone was actually listening to what I was saying. Nice change. When logic and common sense is continuously rebutted with acrimonious name calling and predictions of dire gloom it is difficult not to return in kind.

Let's not lose sight that this is a rumour forum so much of it cannot be taken too seriously. Unfortunately, there are those who hang on every word.

[Steve the Pirate]

Mr Westcoastcapt

I'm curious; did you read beyond the first sentence of Raven's post? I did and I think he's stating that, in his opinion, your posts on this thread have an unnecessary edge to them (as was I).

Any chance of hearing your thoughts on the question I posed earlier?

STP

[Liam Gallagher]

The possibility of a "lockout" (think Alan Joyce) has already been flagged up by the Canadians.

Taking a leaf out of the Joyce's playbook, the company will talk with Canadians, but if agreement cannot be reached the ultimate sanction is for the company to lock out the Canadian employees (a reverse strike if you will). For any other Canadian company, this would be a disaster as operations would cease. However, in Cathay's case they would just roster the HKG crews to man the flights.

As WCC said, no more of this take it or leave nonsense.........

[Dragon69]

However, in Cathay's case they would just roster the HKG crews to man the flights.

You speak as though we have excess crews...we can't even man certain flights out of HKG, how on earth makes you think cx will be able to man the YVR/YYZ flights without any adverse impact.:\:\

[s11max]

Can someone in the know please inform the readers of the Freighter PX "plan" for AOAC pilots.

There is a nasty rumour spreading that AOAC pilots will Freighter PX. The second aspect of same rumour pertains to those members who did the negotiating and their own interests, but I won't mention that here.

[Liam Gallagher]

I think the threat of a lookout is all that is required. However, if anyone wished to call the company's bluff reliant on a lack of crew, they should remember that any such lockout would be at a time of choosing by the company.

As was the case with QF, I suggest any such lockout would be measured in days rather than weeks. It would come down to who had more cash, the company for overtime or the Canadians to pay their mortgages, mooring fees, Ferrari repair bills:O

S11max, log onto the AOA website and you will find the answer you seek.

[freightdog188]

turnandburn hit the nail right on the head.

severance package, most unlikely ...
Come to HK on COS08 (without housing as an inofficial punishment), your basing in Canada is not required anymore. End of story.
And there is nothing in any labour law anywhere to stop them from doing this.

good luck, Canada.

[Bob Hawke]

O Canada!

How disappointing are thee!

[cxorcist]

My thoughts exactly, Freightdog. I'm not sure how Canadians are truly protected if the company decides to close the basing area. I do think they would get HKG housing however, except the freighter captains without passenger command seniority who would either be downgraded or receive the 24K only. This reality will hang over every CBA negotiation for the foreseeable future.

In time, AOAC will recognize the foolishness of separating from the group and will beg to return...

[Hedo Rick]

bOR38552MJA&feature

:E

[Freehills]

Hedo Rick! You still a rippin' and a tearin'?