Is London the new Afghanistan??

[peppermint_jam]

The rates are better...

Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151386/10-000-police-climb-Olympic-gravy-train--30-hardship-cash-sharing-loo-50-night-away.html)

[airborne_artist]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/29/article-2151386-1357E839000005DC-560_233x324.jpg

[Two's in]

How unlike the Daily Mail to focus on some divisive aspect of society to fuel a sense of bitterness, entitlement and vitriol in their readers, must be a new owner...

[Chicken Leg]

Like most people, I fully support our emergency services. However, the Rozzers are really pushing my support at the moment. Be it their resistance to reform, pensions, their treatment of a Home Secretary invited as a guest to their conference and now this.

I've never said it before, but I find myself thinking 'F**k em' on increasingly regular intervals recently.

[Chicken Leg]

How unlike the Daily Mail to focus on some divisive aspect of society to fuel a sense of bitterness, entitlement and vitriol in their readers, must be a new owner...
I'm big enough to form my own opinion. If it's true, it flagrant opportunism by an increasingly out of touch police force.

[Torque Tonight]

Excellent, I look forward to receiving my cheque for having to s--t alfresco in a hole in the ground in the God-forsaken wastelands of southern Iraq, or at best in a plastic box full of effluent gently simmering in the desert sun. Sharing a bathroom in a hotel... luxury!

[cokecan]

CL, i find myself sharing your view - the sight of a fat rozzer wobbling around Ludlow, wearing belt-kit that wouldn't look out of place in South-Central Helmand Province, and knowing that his 'allowences' would make a significant proportion of a young soldiers salary, do not make charitably disposed towards them...

[Tashengurt]

That's right chicken leg, we're all raking it in. Never mind the freeze on pay increments, below inflation annual rises, overtime rates cut (and noone ever hot paid for a phone call) and pension contributions up to 14% plus a raft of policies which are obviously aimed at culling expensive experienced officers. No wonder the home secretary got a poor reception. We'll take our share of cuts but we're being hit again and again.

[airborne_artist]

Reminds me of the old Hard Lying Allowance that we received for nights aboard HMS Sabre, a Fast Training Boat. I don't think it was more than 30p/day in 1979. (30p ~ about the price of a pint).

[Training Risky]

I don't know, is it?

The following combat indicators may help us to decide:

1. Full of Islamic terrorists able to operate with impunity?
2. Pretensions to a multi-ethnic society, but more sectarian bile coming out of the most 'diverse' districts?
3. Ruled by an incompetent jirga of district councils, squabbling along tribal/party political lines?
4. Armed security forces clattering around in armoured police vehicles and helicopters to create a ring of steel for the fighting season/Jubilympics?
5. Endemic corruption at all levels of the industrial/military complex, from contractors to mayoral candidates?

Answers on a postcard please!

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Tashengurt,

We are in a similar boat. Pay freeze. No overtime pay. Pension cuts. Redundancies. Etc. I suspect that we are just a little bit jealous that we have to take this on the chin - without so much as a by your leave - whereas police officers are permitted to vent their frustrations in public.

Don't take it personally. If I took the sh!te written on any of the Scottish threads, I'd never be back. (Some might say 'good riddance')

Duncs:ok:

[zedder]

I think you've hit a few nails firmly on the head there TR!

Went to see the 'Hammers' at Upton Park for the first time in a while last year, and walking down West Ham High St after the game I felt like I'd been transported to Ruwi High St:(

[skydiver69]

FFS the allowances highlighted by the Mail were introduced by the GOVERNMENT following their so called independent report into police reform pay and conditions by Tom Winsor. Winsor recommended changes to allowances when working away from home so don't blame the police for being paid what he recommended.

As another poster has already said the police (along with countless other workers I might add) have been subject to a pay freeze and pension increases so every pound earnt in o/t or allowance during the olympics will only go to make up for something we have already lost. If you really want to kick the police then don't forget that every PC left working in their own areas during the summer will also probably be expected to work a lot of extra o/t in order to make up for the constables being sent to London...or do you think we should work their duties for free?

As for barracking the home secretary has anyone heard how the house of commons normally acts during PMQ's particularly when whips try to drum up support to drown out the opposition. A few hundred disgruntled bobbies at the fed conference were just making their feelings known in a similar way.

[mlc]

I don't know what's worse. The crap that the DM publishes as 'news', or supposedly intelligent people actually believing this sort of nonsense.

As for the rest.

Pensions- Contributions rising to 14.2% of gross wage. Working till 60 (chasing 18 year old feral scum..that'll work). Pension is worth half what is was. When I was in the mob, how much did I pay into my pension...not a lot!

Resistence to change- Cameron is privatising the Police. Look at the jobs currently on G4S website. Look at the roles West Mids are putting out to tender.

Fat, lazy Police- Right! 70% of the people I work with are ex-Forces. During my dark blue career, I saw plenty of fat, lazy wasters. I don't condem every one in a uniform as such.

I've been shot at, attacked with knives and screwdrivers, had ribs broken twice....never got some much as a stubbed toe in the mob and I had a damn site more time off as well. Let's stop pretending that everyone is stuck in a **** hole in Afghanistan.

The Armed Forces and the Police are fair game for Cameron, because neither can do anything about it. It's pretty disappointing to see some of the inane comments on here. And from a Daily Mail story (it's certainly not journalism)

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I wonder if the troops (and sailors and airmen) seconded to the Olympics will get the same allowances.

Duncs:ok:

[Motleycallsign]

A pig just went past my window at an altitude of 100 feet Duncs. Nail on head hit just right I fear.

[mlc]

Cameron is planning on divide and conquer. It seems to be working.

Perhaps all those of us giving up our weekend in a few weeks for a Help for heroes event should think again. Then again, we clearly are not as petty and pathetic as some on here.

[Doctor Cruces]

Civil Servants and Local Government Officers are in the same boat but without the chance to claw some of it back.
Local Government Officers also had their pensions screwed in the last years of Bliars reign, work longer, pay more, get less and two years later Mr call me Dave Millionaire Camoron wants to do it all again.

However, I suspect my for the the Police is much like most posters experience of public servants: -
A little truth mixed with a load of horsesh1t that becomes folklore.

Doc C

[Chicken Leg]

I don't disagree that a bobby's job is demanding, potentially dangerous and at times, very frustrating. What I do object to, is the suggestion that they have it any worse than many other public sector workers, including those that typify the clientele on these pages. I also object to what appears to be an increasingly militant attitude fron the Police Association's.

And like I said in my second post, I don't need the DM to shape my political and society views.

I don't believe any public sector workers should receive extra pay for the Olympic period, whether they be TFL workers, emergency service workers or the Amed Forces. If you expect extra money for when you have to work extra hard, I assume you will be happy to give some back during quieter days, weeks or months of the year?

If you want performance related pay, join the private sector or start a business.

[skydiver69]

I don't believe any public sector workers should receive extra pay for the Olympic period, whether they be TFL workers, emergency service workers or the Amed Forces. If you expect extra money for when you have to work extra hard, I assume you will be happy to give some back during quieter days, weeks or months of the year?

If you want performance related pay, join the private sector or start a business.

Its not extra pay for the Olympics, its pay that the government has implemented following Tom Winsor's review into police pay and conditions. It is pay which would be paid for any operation which means staying away from home whether its a riot, football world cup, political party conference or even a royal wedding. It is not performance related pay in any way.

It is also very difficult for the police federation to do anything remotely close to being militant because a) we don't have the right to strike b) the fed is a completely useless organisation which thinks a strongly worded letter of protest is enough to influence government policy.

[Tashengurt]

I don't really know why people insist on comparing Police conditions with those in the military. It's apples and oranges.

[Lonewolf_50]

Police tend to have far more stringent RoE than military. ;)

[Shropshire Lad]

I don't believe any public sector workers should receive extra pay for the Olympic period, whether they be TFL workers, emergency service workers or the Amed Forces. If you expect extra money for when you have to work extra hard, I assume you will be happy to give some back during quieter days, weeks or months of the year?

Because that is exactly the same for every private sector company I've worked for - Oh sorry no it isn't!

I think an analogy would help - Supposing I have several plumbing jobs around the house that need doing. What you seem to be suggesting is that if I employ a private sector plumber, I should be able to lure him/her round with a request to fix the toilet and then get him/her to unblock the drains and install a new water tank for no additional cost??? And get all this by simply telling him/her that he shouldn't receive extra pay for working hard? Is that how the private sector works now... Who knew??

If you want performance related pay, join the private sector or start a business.

I suppose you could turn this on its head - if you want the pay and conditions that the police are rumored to get then join the police. I'm assuming there is a reason you didn't? I suspect your knowledge of the police and the work they are involved in is a little limited if you are trying to compare it with the private sector...

[ratty1]

Supposing I have several plumbing jobs around the house that need doing.

I know somebody who can do those jobs for you. Great rates if you pay cash. Know what I mean;);) Course you'll have to supply the tea and chocolate hobnobs.

[mlc]

Well Mr Chicken Leg. you might find that Police Officers are a touched miffed because Cameron has launched four reviews in two years, all detrimental to Police Pay and conditions. Worse than that, he's on a mission to privatise the Police. The following list is what West Mids have just put out to tender. Care to suugest what is left for actual Police to do. You might feel differently when G4S are carrying out all Police functions, for profit and for the benefit of their shareholders.

— Assure service – manage performance, maintain professional standards, assure compliance, manage risk, provide legal services,
— Bring offenders to justice – investigate crimes, detain suspects, non-judicial disposal, develop cases, support prosecution,
— Deal with incidents – respond to incidents, manage scenes of incidents, investigate incidents, manage major incidents, support victims and witnesses,
— Lead service – supports the Leadership of the organisation to develop strategy, policy and plans, manage change, and manage partnerships,
— Manage public engagement – patrol neighbourhoods, manage public relations, manage customer relationships, report on performance, manage contact,
— Manage resources – manage suppliers, manage finance, manage people, manage ICT, manage fleet and livestock, manage equipment, manage facilities,
— Protect the public – manage high risk individuals, improve communities, protect vulnerable people, disrupt criminal networks, manage planned operations, protect vulnerable places, manage licensing, manage road safety,
— Support operational services – manage duty and tasking, manage forensics, provide specialist services, gather police information, manage property and evidence, manage intelligence.
This list of services is not exhaustive and consideration may be given to inclusion of additional services or options for additional services of a similar nature to be provided on an incremental basis, which will assist in delivering the forces objectives.
The lot 1 supplier will be expected to work closely with the lot 2 supplier in order to deliver integrated transformation across services with the forces.

Yes, ALL the above to be done by PRIVATE comapnies. They will have access to all Police databases. They will have access to your DNA, the Police National Computer etc etc.

Perhaps now YOU will get a little miffed and demand to know from your MP why this is happening. You might also ask why the oedius little man who introduced this, a certain Mr Winsor, is a partner in a firm that advises....G4S....in bidding for privatised Police work. Corruption of the highest order.

[dagenham]

Pc plod should come back from the edge and join the real world


They get overtime, how many jobs these days get overtime... Very few especially on plods basic! At sargeant and above they will only ones in the country to get o.t.

14% pension! Bloodyhell i don't know anyone outside of Brenda's employment who gets that.

Above inflation pay rises! Plenty of private sector guys have not got this for a few years too!

The behaviour seen at conferences etc really does not do them any favours! The amount on unresolved petty crime ditto!


Must resist urge to buy daily mail....must resist urge......

[Chicken Leg]

The problem with the police force is the same as for the NHS as far as criticism is concerned. In other words, it's political suicide to publicly criticise them as a body, whether that criticism is justified or not.

All sections of the public sector need to realise that the music has stopped and life is very different. They need to be more efficient, accept that they can't retire on a full (and pretty generous) pension at as young as 38 or so, and accept the overall principle for change. That goes for rozzers, NHS staff, teachers and yes, the Armed Forces too.

[skydiver69]

They get overtime, how many jobs these days get overtime... Very few especially on plods basic! At sargeant and above they will only ones in the country to get o.t.

14% pension! Bloodyhell i don't know anyone outside of Brenda's employment who gets that.

Above inflation pay rises! Plenty of private sector guys have not got this for a few years too!

The behaviour seen at conferences etc really does not do them any favours! The amount on unresolved petty crime ditto!

Plenty of jobs still pay overtime even nowadays. As it happens it is only PC's and sergeants who get paid o/t in the police as Inspectors o/t stopped a couple of years ago.

We pay 14% into our pension and now have to serve 35 years before receiving it. There are a lot of people who pay less in and get more our than the police including MP's and judges. We still get a good deal even taking into account the higher contributions but the majority of us work hard dealing with the scum bags most MOP would rather keep away from. No one retires from the police at 38 on a full pension. Even the very few who joined at 18 on the old scheme would have to work until 48 before retiring and they really are the exception to the rule. Current pensions start to pay out at 55 and following new government guidelines the age will be moving to 60 very soon.

What above inflation pay rises? We are now subject to a pay freeze followed by a maximum of 1% pay rises for two years. I don't think we had above inflation pay rises even before the pay freeze.

We have very few ways of making our feelings know as we can't strike. That leaves us making the occasional march in our own time, lobbying MP's or barracking the home secretary on one of the very few occasions we see her face to face. I thought the reception at the conference was quite mild in comparison to how MP's normally act during a regular parliamentary debate or even PMQ's.

Police are realistic. We know that cuts have to be made and we are happy to accept our share. We are also happy with reform as the way we work is continuously being subjected to change whether its the introduction of something like PACE or new entry requirements and training. We are also subject to a massive amount of criticism such as the Daily Mail article and a tirade of negative briefings from the government. Right now though too much is being thrown at us in a haphazard way with privatisation being brought in by the back door.

[barnstormer1968]

I think that although it is easy to pompare the police with the army etc, it does not really help here.
We already know the army get paid less, have much harder living conditions while on operations, have much less chance to deal with opposition who can literally kill them at will. We also know that although the army have many times fewer members on ops they have a much higher death rate while doing their job. The case of Keith Blakelock was an outrage in the UK, but a squaddie suffering the same (or probably much worse) fate in Afgan would easily be second to any of the TV talent shows in the press IMHO.

The fact is that most of us knew the pay and conditions we would meet when we signed on. I for one could never be a copper in modern times as I could not cope with the level of 'lip' and abuse from a large section of the public.
I do however feel the police have been their own worst enemy and have chosen the wrong battles to fight (as a body of people). Thirty years ago many crimes and individuals could be dealt with by one officer, whereas today the same offence may take six officers! The officers are better trained today, have better comms and quicker backup, but the law is weaker (or more in favour of offenders) now IMHO.
In my teenage years I remember lots of incidents where lip to an officer was quashed with a truncheon, whereas now it may just bring on two more officers to support the initial one or two. Did this technique work? I can say that the police receive more abuse now than then.
Talk to the average airman/soldier/sailor and ask them how they deal with civilian v military police! If our police had more 'on the street power' and didn't have 'political powers' foisted on them I feel that we would have better policing, and more spare officers to do the job they joined to do.
I have worked with police on many occasions and have always got on well with them, but sometimes feel that they are now a shadow of the officers I knew as a child, despite them having a lot more power.
If the police had fought battles over various laws in earlier decades they may not be in the overworked crisis they are now.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Divide and conquer with the fools buying it every time. Out thought by politicians that I wouldn't trust to run a corner shop.

[Agaricus bisporus]

I don't suppose the cuts and privatization could have anything to do with frustration at perpetuated neanderthal working practices (like overtime and banging on about index linked pensions) , grievous inefficiency at all levels and insanely bureaucratic multi-duplicated admin (ie multiple local constabularies) that the police chiefs resolutely refuse to address?

Not to mention the breathtaking uselessness of the force in general as far as the public (victims) are concerned?

That's not to say that the same approach shouldn't be taken in Council and Whitehall land but then turkeys don't vote for Christmas, do they?

Privatization isn't the answer, it will be a disaster, but then if the dinosaur refuses to evolve what else can they do?

[davejb]

I think the problem is that the police have evolved - they've evolved into the coppers that those who make laws (giovernment, last time I checked) insisted on passing - the police don't write the laws, they enforce them... so don't balme the cops if they are now far less effective than they used to be. You could even argue that it's all our own fualt for voting in the folk who made the changes.

The divide and conquer operation is running very well in the Uk - having lost a shedload of money in the banking crisis, backed up by lending money to foreign halfwits (I flowered it up a bit there, did you notice?) we ended up deep in the financial poo - government can't cut pay and conditions for private companies, but they can do so for public servants, so they did. Who's getting shafted next then? Which set of public servants is going to be demonised next week I wonder.

[A2QFI]

Maybe stringent but widely ignored in UK at least!

[Chicken Leg]

I think the problem is that the police have evolved - they've evolved into the coppers that those who make laws (giovernment, last time I checked) insisted on passing - the police don't write the laws, they enforce them... so don't balme the cops if they are now far less effective than they used to be. You could even argue that it's all our own fualt for voting in the folk who made the changes.
Maybe you misunderstand me. I'm not blaming the police for being ineffective or unfit for purpose; I fully support the good old bobby on the beat and sympathise with them for having to behave in a far too PC world with far too many lazy, disrespectful scrotes.

However, I do criticise their reluctance to modernise and accept that change is needed. We had it with the fire fighters a few years ago and we're going through it with the NHS now as well.

I see today that doctors have also agreed on industrial action. Wake up, for f**ks sake. This Government (albeit a coalition) was elected on a manifest of austerity. Now the austerity is coming, the public sector are all saying that they accept it, as long as it doesn't affect us.

[Shropshire Lad]

However, I do criticise their reluctance to modernise and accept that change is needed. We had it with the fire fighters a few years ago and we're going through it with the NHS now as well.

Just a minor point for the sake of accuracy. The NHS was first "modernised" in 1974. It was modernised again around about 1984. Then again in 1992-04. It was modernised again in 2002. This evolved through further modernisation until it became indistinguishable from its 2002 incarnation around about 2006. At which point it was decided to "modernise" it again. This time everything seemed to be working well so it was deemed in 2010 to be in need of "modernisation". Of all the public services, the NHS is the one that has been modernised the most. And with alarming regularity.

But never let the facts get in the way of a bit of ideology...

And surely the reason we ended up with a coalition was precisely because no government was elected on a manifesto of austerity??

[Lonewolf_50]

Is London the new Afghanistan??

To answer the exam question, first answer the following: can one get a decent curry in Afghanistan?

If not, then one cannot consider London the new Afghanistan, as the old Afghanistan lacks certain Londonian characteristics, rendering such comparisons akin to the one between kabobs and crescent wrenches. :cool:

In Herat's fields the poppies grow ...

[dagenham]

I still don't see the hardship......most private jobs have similar issues.....except the average plod does not face any real prospects of redundancy. Pension still sounds magic at any of the ages you quote.....:ok:

As for meeting the ****ty end of the stick of life...well you should of thought of that before signing up. As my elders and betters said some time ago to a worried colleague on the way down south..... If you didn't want to be shot at why the f&@k join the army, the uniform is not that nice, the pay is **** and the food is terrible.

It just a choice, and we all knew the deal when we signed up. This mess was predictable for anyone who can remember sunny jim, operation countryman and the days of multicoloured swap shop. Everyone was out on strike, even dustybin. :ugh: after labour spend all the money, it all goes to the wall for a couple of years....it will be bad hair, bone clothes and wine bars again by 2017;)

Don't get me wrong i have some sympathy...but some times you have to see how lucky you are even when things seem crap. Just remember, a dole queue has a similar level of client and is a lot tougher place to be! . I found out the hard way...

[Chicken Leg]

Shropshire: it seems that we agree; modernisation is a continual process, not a one off event.

How does the saying go? 'The only constant is change' or something like that?

[skydiver69]

I appreciate that I've got a job and I really enjoy what I do. I've been unemployed and I've worked in rubbish warehouses to make ends meet and to pay the mortgage. I've also had personal pension and can see how good the police pension is in comparison to it. Lastly I went into the job with open eyes in regards to the type of work I would be doing and the customers I would be dealing with. However when people spout completely inaccurate rubbish about the police then I have to try to answer them.

The DM article which started this thread is biased rubbish which tried to make out that the police were intent on milking the gravy train and being greedy which is patently not the case. The government wants to reform the police. They employed Tom Winsor to make recommendations and then accepted most of them. The overnight allowance quoted is one of the things Winsor recommended and which the government accepted and now the Mail is trying to blame us for being paid it!

As far as police wanting to stand up against the government's changes, is that really wrong. Surely any employee no matter what the circumstances should have the ability or opportunity to put their own point of view as and when it suits. I can't think of one of my colleagues who thinks we should be exempt form reform or cut backs, however none of us think the government is going around it in the right way. The Fed for what its worth, have looked at alternative ways of saving money but the government ignored their ideas. Given that most of Winsor's ideas were accepted whilst ours were ignored and given that we question the effectiveness of his ideas as well as the back door privatisation of core police services, then we have to make our opposition known in the limited ways available to us. We don't have the right to strike and we are led by a largely ineffective Federation, whilst at the same time we are subject to an obligation to follow lawful orders.

Lastly none of this thread should have anything to do with how we as police feel in comparison to the armed forces. The two professions are completely different with vastly different demands and expectations so I don't know why some posters insist on talking about how easy the police have it in comparison to the forces.