London pride parade at public expense [Archive]

SeeArSee

28th May 2012, 21:02

Apparently in a DIN released today, serving military personnel are positively encouraged to take part in the London gay pride march in full uniform.

It is being classified as official duty and travelling costs etc are at public expense.

I can't think of any other circumstances, other than the obvious Rememberance / homecoming parade etc, where a parade is given this kind of official blessing.

Is it just me that thinks that such endorsement is a little ott?
(or that in this age of frontline cutbacks we employ a Lt Col as SO1 Diversity?)

ShyTorque

28th May 2012, 21:05

In the interests of equal opportunity, are they having a heterosexual pride march and can you claim for it?

ratty1

28th May 2012, 21:16

Oh goody, its the annual Military PPrune Gay bashing thread and the first two people have already started. Of course they will come back and say that they are not homophobes.

thing

28th May 2012, 21:22

Bit of drift but flew up to Sherburn yesterday for the Wings n Wheels (excellent by the way) and came across this group. GCCG | Gay Classic Car Group UK | for gay men and lesbians with an interest in classic cars (http://www.gccg.org.uk/) Thoroughly nice set of guys n gals. You don't even have to be gay to join.

Tankertrashnav

28th May 2012, 21:22

I can't think of any other circumstances, other than the obvious Rememberance / homecoming parade etc, where a parade is given this kind of official blessing.

I am sure that you could think of some if you tried - sporting events, demonstrations (not demos!) of various types, sundry civic events, etc, where uniform is worn and travelling costs met. Anything that puts the service in the public eye would seem to qualify. Personally I can't stand tennis, but over the years when Mrs TTN has been watching I've cheerfully put up with the sight of uniformed personnel at Wimbledon apparently endorsing what to me is a total waste of time.

Leben und leben lassen, I say ;)

Fox3WheresMyBanana

28th May 2012, 21:28

Ratty, I think the question was: Why Official Duty and public travel for anything other than Remembrance/homecoming?
This question is not gay-bashing, and deserves an answer. It does not help any minority to regard any questioning as xxxx-bashing.

OTOH, I would have thought anything less than a half Colonel (for Diversity) would be unable to get a hearing with the powers-that be, (same principle as ranks for Chaplains and Doctors) and so that seems appropriate.

Shack37

28th May 2012, 21:29

ratty1

Oh goody, its the annual Military PPRuNe Gay bashing thread and the first two people have already started. Of course they will come back and say that they are not homophobes.

You weren't a slouch in jumping in yourself but I don't see an answer to ShyTorque's question. Or is it a one sided PC debate?
S37, Not a homophobe.

TTN

I am sure that you could think of some if you tried - sporting events, demonstrations (not demos!)

What is the Gay Pride March if not a demo?

London Eye

28th May 2012, 21:45

To answer the OP's original point yes, it might appear a little ott. But maybe not, it is probably not the easiest thing in the world to be homosexual in the armed forces today, even though times are much more enlightened than one might expect. I am sure that we would all (OK, more realistically, most of us) wish to recruit the very best of the younger generation regardless of sexual orientation (ethnicity etc) and the DIN might just reflect an approach to increase the prospect of presenting us as an open minded and inclusive employer. With the amount of public money we are talking about (hardly a couple of unreceipted nights stay in London for the privileged few of Westminster) I would suggest it is certainly not worth worrying about, even as a point of principle.

Basil

28th May 2012, 22:31

Mr. Toad: As penance, I shall build you a new boat. An-and wear the washerwoman's dress to the end of my miserable day. Hello, where is it? I-I left it hanging right here.
Ratty: The dress? Oh, Mole took it out before.
Mr. Toad: Mole? Really? Hm, didn't think him the type.

;):p

Flight_Idle

28th May 2012, 23:57

Good job too, at least the services are not so far behind the times these days. Me? I like the Chinese style dress, but when I was in, I would never have got away with it.

AGS Man

29th May 2012, 08:52

When I've seen pictures of the Pride marches many people are in fancy dress. Now maybe the rules have changed since I left but as I remember Service Uniform may not be worn at fancy dress events. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Whenurhappy

29th May 2012, 09:02

Previous Parades have shown Service men and women marching in Service Dress with medals. Quite right, too. Helps break down many of the old stereotypes.

spectre150

29th May 2012, 09:02

London Pride? If you're buying ........

coat, taxi.

:)

Union Jack

29th May 2012, 09:27

You don't even have to be gay to join.

Perhaps not but, reading the title of the club literally, it seems to suggest that your car has to be so I wonder if anyone want to update the nominations at
Gay Car of the Year [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-360181.html)

Jack

Al Murdoch

29th May 2012, 09:52

Its quite pleasing to see that during the annual PPRUNE debate on this subject, the vileness seems to reduce a little bit every year.

timex

29th May 2012, 10:03

Surely if you want to go to an event like this then go, but its taken as a days leave and at your own expense?

Finningley Boy

29th May 2012, 10:17

Its quite pleasing to see that during the annual PPRuNe debate on this subject, the vileness seems to reduce a little bit every year.

And yet on any thread about Scottish Independence the vileness increases substantially!:suspect:

FB:)

Doctor Cruces

29th May 2012, 11:02

I wouldn't mind if there was equality.

I asked the council where I worked at the time, which was always promoting gay/bisexual/trans-gender/black/minority etc events at public expense if we could have a council promoted heterosexual white majority event? I was told in no uncertain terms that if I dared poke my white heterosexual majority head over the fence again I would have it shot off, in public.

So yes, I do object to these publicly funded minority events, especially as it's my council tax that pays for it at the same time as the majority of people can no longer have a public library because there just isn't the money to fund it.

That's not a homophobic rant but I feel that this issue has assumed the same malign life that the race issue has. Disagree with anything the gay community wants or says and they, and their do gooder allies, immediately cry "Homophobe" and any debate is stifled lest we "upset" someone.

Let's have sensible rights so as not to make a handle for true homophobes to grasp.

Right, that's that sorted. Anyone for benefit scroungers next??

Doc C

mymatetcm

29th May 2012, 11:11

If every member of the military attends this event as is their right to do so, this would probably be the last one due to the cost. If you want a free night out in London go for it! a few of us did last year for a free night out in London. The system is there to use just like the dole and benefits.

Torque Tonight

29th May 2012, 11:56

The suggestion that if you don't support this you are homophobic is a very weak argument. Whilst I couldn't care less what consenting adults get up to behind closed doors, I do not consider one's sexual proclivities, whatever they may be, to be a matter for public promotion. To have an employer taking such an enthusiastic interest in employees' sexual preferences (straight, gay, et al) is rather creepy and doesn't cover either in glory (so to speak). This is not very dignified subject matter for the Royal Air Force to be embracing, and I am sure many will be as uncomfortable with this event as they would be with the RAF officially attending a 'straight pride' if such a thing existed.

green granite

29th May 2012, 12:46

I'm with Doctor Cruces and Torque Tonight on this one, perhaps the answer is to wait 2 or 3 months after a council funded gay-pride march and apply for funding for a hetro-pride march, if it's turned down immediately report the council to the ombudsman for sexual discrimination. The worst that can happen is that you end up getting a grant.

ShyTorque

29th May 2012, 12:48

That's not a homophobic rant but I feel that this issue has assumed the same malign life that the race issue has. Disagree with anything the gay community wants or says and they, and their do gooder allies, immediately cry "Homophobe" and any debate is stifled lest we "upset" someone.
Let's have sensible rights so as not to make a handle for true homophobes to grasp.

Dr Cruces, Agreed. Is there such a word as "heterophobe"? If so, it appears that one has appeared on this thread.

TT, totally agree with your post.

langleybaston

29th May 2012, 12:55

I am old enough to be a homophobe.

Indeed i am a homophobe.

Time was when the disgusting practices were practised in private.

Don't ask, don't tell, and don't flaunt it.

Especially near me.

Indeed, how about 'bugger off'?

Haraka

29th May 2012, 13:09

Minorities tend to be vociferous, which they are allowed to be in a free society.
However, having made their point and got their way , surely it's time for this particular self-appointed church now to calm down and assimilate back in to the main stream of the nation's interests.
I would contend that there are far more important issues now at hand than those being endlessly trumpeted by those professing to champion a long obsolete cause.

Tankertrashnav

29th May 2012, 14:05

I tend to agree with you, Haraka, but these events are probably just a reaction to the years of oppression which (male ) homosexuals have been subject to. Dont forget, it's not that many years since homosexual acts even between consenting adults were illegal. I'm sure we dont need to be reminded of the shabby treatment of Alan Turing, probably the greatest mathematical brain of his time and a massive contributor to the allied victory, who committed suicide in the aftermath of a prosecution for a trivial offence. One could go on, but the point is that male homosexuality was a crime in our lifetimes, and it seems churlish to deny gay people a chance to rejoice in it for the time being. Once it becomes universally accepted I am sure these events will just fade away.

Personally I find gay pride marches rather silly, but as I posted above, I have similar feelings about Wimbledon but I don't want it banned.

airpolice

29th May 2012, 14:10

Do what you want, in the privacy of your own home, but out in the street you are frightening the horses!

Flight_Idle

29th May 2012, 14:33

Don't worry, horses totally ignore me, but the riders often cast admiring glances when I looking gorgeous in my Cheongsam dress.

My old SWO would have a bloody fit.

Airborne Aircrew

29th May 2012, 16:21

This Gay Pride march is an absolute CRIME!!!!

Think about all the poor folk with interior decorating jobs going on that will be delayed... The hardship of living in a building site makes another day one shudder... :}

Shack37

29th May 2012, 16:54

My old SWO would have a bloody fit.

Are you sure about that;)

Sloppy Link

29th May 2012, 17:47

I think the disappointing fact is the way that attendance at this event is met from the public purse where as others are not. To name a few, the Army/Navy rugby match, the Royal Tournament, Trooping the Colour (including rehearsals), Queens Royal Garden Party (Buckingham Palace and Holyrood House), Tri-service 20/20 (coming up soon, great fun, 19 Jun I think) and there are many others that the assembled e-audience can think of. Sad state of affairs.

SL

NutLoose

29th May 2012, 19:03

One thinks the reason it is counted as a duty hence the public purse is covering expenses is so they can pump it for all it is worth in the Services advertising campaigns to show how they are embracing the ethos.

I do hope they have a good parade and enjoy themselves, it does not float my boat, but everyone to their own.

Finningley Boy

29th May 2012, 19:51

Whatever, the moral questions about this parade, lets get one thing "straight" Military uniforms should not be worn, it is not a Military Parade it is a festival to promote Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Armed Forces should not expend any effort at all publicising any links with it at all.:*

FB:)

Willard Whyte

29th May 2012, 21:19

I hope it rains, and no bows.

Melchett01

29th May 2012, 21:31

Airborne,

It's not just the parade that's a crime - I had a look at the link to the classic car club mentioned earlier. Only because I appreciate a nice car you understand. I have to say I was disgusted by it.

I could swear I saw an Austin Allegro on there - since when has that been a classic car? Maybe only in the 70s series Terry and June. I'm sorry, but I don't have a problem with people being husband and husband, but anyone that thinks the Allegro is a classic car deserves all the abuse they get!

NutLoose

29th May 2012, 21:51

I did find the "you do not have to be Gay to join the GCCG classic car club".. But the the heck would?

I can imagine the conversations, nice car mate, seen the sticker, what club is the GCCG ?..... Oh it's the erm.... Ermmm Gloucestershire County Cricket ermmm Guild, yes that's it.. It the ermm Cricket Guild....

As for the other link for the gay car of the year.... Well I own an Audi TT 225 Quattro and the only shirt lifting I do is to get my wallet out of my back pocket to pay the stupid bills Audi come out with... The last one.... Ah Mr Nutloose, that is £149 for the fixed service and just short of £4500 for us to replace the discs, a spring and sort a four wheel drive fault, there was nearly an added £200 for the ambulance and oxygen I needed... Thank God I got a warranty with it, it was sorted elsewhere..

Airborne Aircrew

29th May 2012, 22:24

Melchett:

I'm not into cars... To me they are simply there to get me to where I wish to go. On the other hand, of all the cars I can think of that appeared during my youth a bloody Allegro could only ever be considered utter tat... :hmm:

NutLoose

29th May 2012, 22:27

So what was it that floated you boat? An Ambassador? A Princess? A Marina? Or an Avenger? :E

Scuttled

29th May 2012, 22:40

Sorry everyone, I'm a bit late to this, I only had time to quickly skim the thread but I think I've got the gist.

I too think it is an absolute disgrace that our poor gay servicemen are being forced to go to Wimbledon in Austin Allegros, instead of finishing Airborne Aircrew's drapes hanging before going to a well organised May Parade in London.

For shame.

Basil

29th May 2012, 22:40

the riders often cast admiring glances when I looking gorgeous in my Cheongsam dress.

Age: 59

Don't bet on it, sweetie ;)

Basil

29th May 2012, 22:44

NutLoose, Well I own an Audi TT 225 Quattro and the only shirt lifting I do is to get my wallet out of my back pocket to pay the stupid bills Audi come out with...
Farcanal! I'm considering buying an A6 Quattro and you've frightened me. :ooh:

NutLoose

29th May 2012, 23:08

I just find they have electric everything, if I have a bump and set off an airbag it senses it, turns off the fuel, unlocks the doors, turns the interior light on and the hazard warnings. It even detects under and oversteer and puts a single brake on to pull it back in!
My gearbox problem was an ECU getting water in it as it has a hydraulic clutch controlled by it, cost the dealer I bought it from £1080 so was a bit of a one off, I hope, all the discs, pads, one new caliper and one spring I got done for £350. Audi wanted more than that just for the front discs.
They really are a great car to drive, mine is 10 yrs old in its defence and has a 12 year internal rust guarantee, and I don't mean perforation, just rust. I get the the services done and stamped by Audi, all other work done by Audi Vag specialists.
Check out some of the Audi forums BTW

But back to subject :)

blimey

30th May 2012, 00:47

Allegro Equipe 1750 TC, not quite a Dolomite Sprint, but she went well. Halcyon days.

I should add that my present car will now outrun it it third, and my motorbike in second;
however, in its day............

(Edited for service writing.)

Harley Quinn

30th May 2012, 05:23

however, in its day............

(Edited for service writing.)

Back to skool for yuo blimey, it should read

however, in its day...

(Edited for service writing).

with only three period marks and a full stop outside the parenthesis as any fule kno!

(with thanks to my hero Nigel Molesworth);)

Green Flash

30th May 2012, 05:49

Dolomite Sprint

Ah, the Dolly Sprint! Went like a mental thing in a straight line but had the cornering properties of a supertanker .....:eek:

Happy days and mangled roadside trees ;)

Red Line Entry

30th May 2012, 08:07

Nutloose,

I hope you were not maligning the venerable Princess. My first car that was (thanks Dad).

The 2 best things about it:

a. If you screwed your eyes up when you looked at it, it looked ALMOST like a Lotus Esprit....

b. The seat back had a handle (not a wheel), and if you pulled it the seat would go back such that it was virtually flat... ah, happy courting days:p (but only when I could persuade a girl to actually get into the car!)

BTW, what was this thread about?

Pontius Navigator

30th May 2012, 09:05

You want stupid prices. Mercedes want £200 to update the SatNav. For £200 I can buy a new SatNav and quarterly updates for 2 years for that money.

Motleycallsign

30th May 2012, 10:44

Pontius, as a member of SODCAT's I'm suprised you should feel the need to purchase a SatNav.

Coat, hat, where's the door?

Airborne Aircrew

30th May 2012, 11:11

You want stupid prices. Mercedes want £200 to update the SatNav. For £200 I can buy a new SatNav and quarterly updates for 2 years for that money. That's nothing. When I leased my last Honda Pilot I asked what the upgrade to the built-in GPS would cost me. "Err.. hang on, let me run the figures" was the response. A minute later he brightly tells me it will be a mere $50 per month on the lease. A quick bit of maths tells me that over 3 years this will cost me $1800. "That's $1800 over the lease" sez me. "Well, if you put it that way" sez the Sales Slime dejectedly. "Bollox" sez I, "I have a cellphone and Google Maps thanks"...

BEagle

30th May 2012, 12:02

The cost of built-in SatNavs in modern cars is just plain daft. Upgrading them to include current mapping can cost £ lots!

Whereas a standalone SatNav can be bought with lifetime map upgrades for the same price - and you can also use it in any hire car, second car or whatever.

I have such a system, the only PITA (tenuous thread link...:suspect:) is that it has a 2Gb memory and full upgrades require more space - so every 3 months I have to spend a few hours defining the update mapping manually....:hmm:

The Austin Allegro was the car which marked the nadir of BMC design - it introduced the world to BMC's square wheel...or rather, 'quartic', as their optimistic advertisers described it.

Anyway, back to the thread. I can't imagine that prancing up Piccadilly in July in full uniform will be a whole barrel of fun for them - but it would be priceless to witness the atmosphere in the RAF Club if some of the participants were to drop in afterwards and explain the reason for their being in uniform to some aged old Airship.....:ooh:

Basil

30th May 2012, 12:39

if some of the participants were to drop in afterwards and explain the reason for their being in uniform to some aged old Airship
I suppose they may be directed to the Old Park Lane door :};)

I do feel suitably :O for saying that.

Old Fella

30th May 2012, 12:44

Melchett01

30th May 2012, 13:11

At the risk of having the shirt lifter's bellowing I think the parade serves as a great opportunity for London Fire Service to functionally check their fire hydrants and hoses. They could wash the whole show down the drain where they should be. As others have posted, we, the vast majority of hetro's have had enough of being gagged.

Might be a little harsh - and I'm not sure how it would fit in with the hosepipe ban. But from a personal perspective, I tend to take the whatever floats your boat perspective; life's short, why not be happy. Plus, taking a slightly opportunistic view on it, it does reduce the competition for the pretty girls, so in that sense, I think it should be encouraged :E

SOSL

30th May 2012, 13:37

Good post Melchett; subtle reference to hosepipe ban. Beags, I may be wrong, but I think you underestimate the freedom of thought that I have encountered amongst some of the oldest and most treasured members of the Royal Air Force Club.

Best wishes SOS

Red Line Entry

30th May 2012, 13:46

we, the vast majority of hetro's have had enough of being gagged.

I think you'll find it's a different march for people who like doing that...:p

anotherthing

30th May 2012, 13:52

Audi TT is a hairdressers car (although maybe the TTRS is an exception)... anything you want to tell us Nutloose? :p

Al Murdoch

30th May 2012, 14:08

The reason that many people reach flag/field/air rank is their ability to see people as assets to be used and managed to maximum effect, rather than worry themselves about things that are none of their business. The vast majority of the best Officers concern themselves with whether people are good at their jobs or not. Thank goodness the retards, generally, don't get much beyond OF3.
My advice to anyone who has a problem with these things is: chill out, enjoy life, don't worry about what other people are doing in their spare time if its not affecting you. If you feel that strongly about it, then have a good old think about whether you might be a big poof yourself. Many of the biggest haters, in my experience, love a bit of c*ck on the side.
I served my Queen, despite being one, and I'm quite proud of that. I don't think I'd be going on the Pride march as, tbh, I find the whole thing not to my taste, but I will fight to the death for people's right to do it. I think that's kind of the spirit of the armed forces in the UK - and we're a better country for it.

Red Line Entry

30th May 2012, 15:04

Well said Al.

:D:D:D

Pontius Navigator

30th May 2012, 15:30

Pontius, as a member of SODCAT's I'm suprised you should feel the need to purchase a SatNav.

Coat, hat, where's the door?

Motley, it is my BiL who is directionally challenged.

I admit to having a SatNav so that I can check the satellites are working and the map makers have the roads in the right place.:}

Doctor Cruces

30th May 2012, 15:42

Got a Garmin satnav for the car, purchased a lifetime update for about 75 quid.
Now, that's good value. I've updated it about four times since I bought it and a natty little app on my PC tells me when a new update is available to download.

Doc C

Dunky

30th May 2012, 15:58

taking a slightly opportunistic view on it, it does reduce the competition for the pretty girls, so in that sense, I think it should be encouraged http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Spot on, when I lived in London I used to go to mixed bars, there was plenty of (straight) girls there with virtually no competition. The gays knew you weren't that way inclined and left you alone. Also less trouble than many other places.

endplay

30th May 2012, 16:19

As thread drift seems to be obligatory I feel free to contribute to the Allegro strand. In 1973, on the day of its release, I was returning from a 1ACC det at Culdrose and came upon a head on collision betwen two factory fresh Allegros! I like to think they either waved to each other and lost control or simultaneously realised thier mistake and committed vehicular suicide.

To return to thread I think at least one of the drivers was gay.

NutLoose

30th May 2012, 16:51

anotherthing
Audi TT is a hairdressers car (although maybe the TTRS is an exception)... anything you want to tell us Nutloose?

That's fighting talk, keep that up and i'll be round with my curling tongs.

I have a GPS wide mirror fitted in my car that gives you verbal warnings of fixed speed cameras, the speed limit and tells you if you are speeding, it also let's you know when you have cleared the camera too, and it has a digital speed readout and can control mobile camera detectors.... Updates from a PC are free. Made by Cheetah, though they no longer make them.

The one thing my TT could do with is some decent sub woofters in the back, as the Bose system isn't that great.

Dunky

30th May 2012, 17:22

some decent sub woofters in the back

A freudian slip :ooh:

GeeWhizz

30th May 2012, 18:02

An interesting thread beginning with what seemed like a reasonable argument: why allow the public purse to afford servicemen/women a pride march in uniform? Meaning that essentially the government are to provide 20-30 homosexual Service members a free night in London surrounded by many other homosexual men and women for a two hour stroll. Is it a big deal? I'm swayed against the idea.

Several years ago I attended various committees and forums that organised, ran, and promoted these events; both tri-Service and MOD panels. Each time I came away with the thought that these people were pushing too hard for something that was never going to be an issue. OK so some group members were 'old school' and had old fashioned opinions. But does sexual orientation equality need promoting or an awareness campaign launched? Not since homosexuality was 'legalised' from a military standpoint in 2000, and certainly not after the dust had settled by about 2003.

The MOD group were the worst. Never before had I, a gay male serviceman, felt so uncomfortable and out of place! It seemed as though the civil servants wanted to shove fluffy pink wands and rainbow flags into every nook and cranny that could be found in every area of the MOD. It was self alienating.

The Service forums weren't so bad. 'Evolution not revolution' became the slogan for those in touch with the rest of society. With an emphasis on doing the job well; in doing so would naturally lead to less homophobia and ultimately total inclusion in every aspect of military life. Not tradition, homosexuality has never been 'traditional' for any military organisation. But inclusion is important.

As it happens I've led a very comfortable career thus far, have served in many places, and will continue to do so. My sexuality has never been cause for concern from any of my colleagues and neither will I allow it to do so. I don't need to go on pride marches because I feel that it's unnecessary gratuitous display of individuality. I'll never prevent those who wish to take part. Instead I'll support them in anyway possible. But if I continue to do my job well, lead by example, instil the ethos, camaraderie and trust in those I'm lucky enough work with, there is no reason why sexuality should have any bearing on anything at all from anyone.

And besides all this nonsense of cars (really chaps?), what about the aeroplanes? Pistons, turbines, and FJ's are flown by homosexuals too don't you know. How well do you know your co or nav, formation leader, or... fairy!?

airpolice

30th May 2012, 18:08

some decent sub woofters in the back

I thought they were all in the Navy.

airpolice

30th May 2012, 18:16

Just for a bit of balance, I should like to point out that I think the unfairness of all this is the worst bit.

If A calls B a shirtlifter, then A gets a "no coffee, no biscuits" interview.

If B calls A a Homophobe, he is then encouraged to take it further and get the Snowdrops involved.

Why is it only the deviants, rather than the majority, who are allowed to express an opinion?

This also applies in other areas. Can you imagine the uproar if anyone in the Met tried to start a "White Police Officers Association, with the stated aim of furthering the careers of White Police Officers?

Seldomfitforpurpose

30th May 2012, 18:20

This thread has been over complicated with gay is bad or gay is good nonsense when the OP's question was quite simplistic.

I work with a Flt Sgt who has just been questioned by the auditors with regards to the amount of sandwiches he purchased using and not exceeding his DS allowance. He is an RAF sportsman, fit as a bleedin fiddle but apparently buying 3 sandwiches for lunch was deemed excessive and not within the spirit of the allowance regs.

But its perfectly acceptable for a full set of Daily and Nightly subsistence to be issued to allow a minority to attend a Pride march.

Sadly this is what it's come to.

airpolice

30th May 2012, 18:25

Seldom, I think that's a bean counter thing.

My Mum tells folk I was the piano player in a Brothel, but I was actually a Manager with LloydsTSB. We had rules about travel where I could claim for a shuttle airfare from Edinburgh to London at £240 but not a first class ticket on GNER for £180 as only Senior Managers are allowed First Class travel.

FATTER GATOR

30th May 2012, 18:30

[YOUTUBE]Monty Python's Military Fairy - YouTube[YOUTUBE]

Aside from the leave/public expense debate, I'm sure all involved will have a nice day.

I'm off to polish my Allegro...

Pontius Navigator

30th May 2012, 19:43

Actually I thought the Allego looked rather sweet with a pretty read end.

airpolice

30th May 2012, 19:47

I'm off to polish my Allegro...

Is that a euphemism for some unspeakable act?

Melchett01

30th May 2012, 20:06

Is that a euphemism for some unspeakable act?

Not a euphemism, I think owning an Allegro undoubtedly constitutes an unspeakable act in its own right!

Doctor Cruces

30th May 2012, 20:48

Airpolice,

In one of my various incarnations, many years ago, I worked quite closely with the airport police at a major north west airport. (not Liverpool, I said major) One of them was quite incensed at the unfairness of all the black this and black that organisations springing up and he put forward the proposal for a white police association.

His experience was similar to mine (posted earlier) and he enjoyed a meeting with his Chief Superintendent (no tea OR biscuits I would add) where his Chief Super told him, in words of few syllables, that he was lucky still to have a job and if he dared mention it again the Super would personally tear his head off and shove it up his (the plod's) arse.

You are correct, discrimination is a one way street and that's what pees most people off, me included.

Doc C

500N

30th May 2012, 21:16

Is that a very young looking Frank Spencer is that Monty Python video clip ?

ShyTorque

30th May 2012, 21:17

And besides all this nonsense of cars (really chaps?), what about the aeroplanes? Pistons, turbines, and FJ's are flown by homosexuals too don't you know. How well do you know your co or nav, formation leader, or... fairy!?

My favourite aircraft was the Fairey Rotodyne - does that help? :E

Seldomfitforpurpose

30th May 2012, 21:32

My favourite aircraft was the Fairey Rotodyne - does that help? :E

Well it does confirm some suspicions :E

NutLoose

30th May 2012, 21:35

Several years ago I attended various committees and forums that organised, ran, and promoted these events; both tri-Service and MOD panels. Each time I came away with the thought that these people were pushing too hard for something that was never going to be an issue. OK so some group members were 'old school' and had old fashioned opinions. But does sexual orientation equality need promoting or an awareness campaign launched? Not since homosexuality was 'legalised' from a military standpoint in 2000, and certainly not after the dust had settled by about 2003.

GeeWhizz

Spot on, nothing alienates more than having it rammed down their throat, I for one couldn't care less if the person working next to me is gay, likes sheep, is a minority group or is a celibate monk..
What rankles is when it is shoved in your face by politicians supporting these, and i say it with no malice, minority groups... do I want to parade through London because I like women, No... Do I want to parade through London because I am white.... No... do I want to parade through London because I am right handed... No, so why should I be looked on as racially sexually left handedisimist.. Simply because I do not agree with all this crap being lofted on me by politicians, senior service members and the courts, simply because they wish to be seen as being PC and push it to the extreme, to make the point.

Gays in the Forces.... Not a problem at all, it was a long time coming and was totally justified in being allowed, I remember during my Service career how those that were " found out" we're hunted down and treated as if they we're lepers and treated disgracefully... That was totally wrong and abhorrent, BUT in these eyes the changes should have been Gays are now allowed and that should have been the end of it, if you wanted to tell folks I am gay, fine... But for the military PC to jump on the subject and then force it on everyone with the push to show how much they are embracing the gay community in the forces is just wrong.

ShyTorque

30th May 2012, 22:01

Well it does confirm some suspicions

Look, the cross-dressing thing was a one-off, just for a bet. Okay?

Anyway, you seemed up for it after I shaved my legs ;)

GeeWhizz

30th May 2012, 22:52

[...]nothing alienates more than having it rammed down their throat, I for one couldn't care less if the person working next to me is gay, likes sheep, is a minority group or is a celibate monk..

Nutloose I draw the line at celibate monks!

[...]I remember during my Service career how those that were " found out" we're hunted down and treated as if they we're lepers and treated disgracefully... That was totally wrong and abhorrent, BUT in these eyes the changes should have been Gays are now allowed and that should have been the end of it, if you wanted to tell folks I am gay, fine... But for the military PC to jump on the subject and then force it on everyone with the push to show how much they are embracing the gay community in the forces is just wrong.

A story told over and over again. Ironically I think globo-socially this is 'just a phase', it's fashionable at the moment to be all tree-huggy-save-the-whales-PC. Although there is a need to be accepting of all walk of life (not necessarily agree with them), hopefully the public push will fizzle into 'normal' nothingness soon enough. Minority differences should not be forced upon anyone; heck is that not half the reason why there are civil wars bubbling up all over the shop?

(Reflection: how hard is it to write something sensible with all the possible innuendos on this subject matter!)

Edit:

Had to do some research on the Fairey Rotodyne (youn'un here)... Looks 'gay' enough whichever way you view it! Whoever decided it would be clever to put disgusting rotors on an aeroplane must have been a gene short. It's common knowledge that helicopters do not fly, the ground simply repels them - FACT:E

ShyTorque

30th May 2012, 23:11

Nutloose, far too many innuendos in your post!

Seems to me the best way to integrate the "new acceptance" of all sexual preferences in the military is to make a point of NOT over egging the pudding, so to speak. After all, it's not an over-riding consideration of how well a person does their job, is it?

Equality is, equality makes. = , =.

BTW, one of the most professional people I worked with on my crew "came out" when it first became acceptable to do so. I most definitely am not of the same sexual preference, despite my banter with SFFP. We trusted our lives to each other and respected each other 100%, no issues there. Off duty he was a real gentleman, too. One of the few SNCOs I took as a guest into the Officers' Mess. I reckon he was too much of gentleman to go flaunting himself in uniform on a "Gay march" just to prove a point to satisfy someone else's sense of political correctness.

Whenurhappy

31st May 2012, 06:57

GeeWhiz - thanks for an interesting and balanced post. I think you had a few doubts 4-5 years ago about joining up because of Service perceptions of your sexuality. I’m pleased to read that you are in and clearly enjoying service life.

I was hauled in to various fora and focus groups to discuss the issue in the mid 1990s, when I was at Lyneham. There was a spectrum of views - predictably the 'dinosaur' view from the old and bold and a generally more enlightened view from the younger brethren. There were comments regarding the requirement for different toilet and shower blocks, the ‘what would happen in combat?’ discussions etc…almost exactly the same arguments I had heard in the 1980s concerning the employment of women aircrew.

Fast-forward a couple of years and I was at a dining in at a well-known helicopter unit and there was, in attendance, an equally well-known ’gender assignee’, who I had met some years before in her earlier persona. Emboldened by a few beers, I asked this officer what her experience, with respect to colleagues, had been. She said that most colleagues had been supportive; some congratulating her determination to serve, albeit couched with ‘not my bag’ sort of comments. However, the group that she said she had the greatest difficulty with was women officers. [Apologies if you think I have misquoted you].

For some of the older posters here, times have changed. Students joining the RAF now have much greater ‘exposure’ (no double-entendre meant) to gay people and issues and generally couldn’t give a flying fig about it. Perhaps more talented people – some of whom are gay – have been tempted to enlist? Perhaps a visible presence at a Gay Pride parade helps with this recruitment? I’m sure some research has been done in this area.

Tankertrashnav

31st May 2012, 08:15

Geewhiz - I was impressed with your initial post. Like you, none of my homosexual friends would want to attend gay pride events as they have long accepted their sexuality as just a normal part of their life. I'm very pleased to hear that you have been able to pursue your service career successfully without your sexual orientation being an issue.

Nutloose's post neatly reinforces the fact that being homosexual is no more a life-choice than being male, white or left handed - it is just something you are born with.

I am pleased that whenurhappy talks about some of the older posters here. Some of us are quite ashamed at the attitudes of those few dinosaurs who still seem unable to understand that they have no more to fear from a homosexual colleague than one with red hair.

(Mind you, a ginger co-pilot? Not so sure, come to think of it ;))

Airborne Aircrew

31st May 2012, 10:58

HEY!!!! Leave us gingers alone... We're people too you know... :{

Melchett01

31st May 2012, 11:53

HEY!!!! Leave us gingers alone... We're people too you know...

Maybe you need a parade to let people know that you have feelings too?

ShyTorque

31st May 2012, 12:00

Got a ginger bloke here working on the house today. When he arrived I asked if he was OK with dogs around (we have dogs). He asked if we had an Alsation because he says that every Alsation he's ever met goes for him, including the one he once owned!!

Now there's prejudice for you..... :}

Or is it just "good taste"?
(I've never tasted one).

Doctor Cruces

31st May 2012, 12:34

I'm very glad to see that as this thread ages, there are now some sensible comments appearing. I don't think I feel this because they tend to echo my own thoughts but rather because they are now less gay bashing and more in the nature of a debate.

My faith In PPRuNers has been restored.

:)

Doc C

Basil

31st May 2012, 13:04

[double entendre/]
We'd an obviously homosexual PE master, another engineer at my MoD employer resembled Benny Hill in appearance and inclination and then three years in the Merchant Navy completed my exposure. No-one made a big deal of it.
SO by the time I joined the RAF my personal view was 'Don't ask' and, had I known about someone, I doubt very much if I'd have told.

Anyway, re the march :zzz:

Recollect being in Anchorage when they had a winter parade. Amongst them was a bunch of 'nuns' most of them pretty rough. I remarked to a colleague: "That one at the back isn't too bad." He replied: "FFS Bas! They're all guys in drag!" Bas (adjusting specs) "Oh, er, yes." :O

NutLoose

31st May 2012, 19:07

Nutloose, far too many innuendos in your post!

My apologies it was not intended to infer anything of the sort, simply how I saw it.

Incidentally when I joined the RAF way back in 1976 when these things were frowned on to put it politely, our room senior man at Swinditz walked in on two new recruits in the lounge getting up to some things, he mentioned it to us all in our room, but would not say who they were, though later did, he reasoned that with the over subscription for places at the time, they had worked hard to get there as we all had, were probably homesick, and as fellow 16 year olds may just have been going through a phase, so we all kept it to ourselves and that was the end of the matter, we were not going to destroy the dreams and careers of a couple of fellow recruits over such a thing.

Willard Whyte

31st May 2012, 19:59

Or is it just "good taste"?
(I've never tasted one).

Nah, all dogs taste like chicken that's gone off.

I'd just put all the dogs down and burn 'em.

Willard Whyte

31st May 2012, 20:01

HEY!!!! Leave us gingers alone... We're people too you know... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

Better to be a ginger than a slaphead - there's far too many baldymen in the raf.

500N

31st May 2012, 20:04

" Nah, all dogs taste like chicken that's gone off."

That's because of what they are fed on.

Same as crocodiles taste like chicken, because that is all they are fed !

Willard Whyte

31st May 2012, 20:06

Actually I thought the Allego looked rather sweet with a pretty read end.

Which is why it was more aerodynamic in reverse than going forwards.

Not that anyone ever proved it, the gearbox would end up on the tarmac some time before terminal velocity was reached.

NutLoose

31st May 2012, 20:16

HEY!!!! Leave us gingers alone... We're people too you know...

Spoken like a true Stepkid.... :E

Wasn't the Allegro the one with the square wheel, but drove like it had five of them.

Melchett01

31st May 2012, 21:42

Better to be ginger than a slaphead ...

You keep on telling yourself that - or keep taking the medication. Either way, you might believe it but the rest of the world never will! After all, you see a slap head walking down the street, you take no notice. You see a ginger walking down the street and you automatically start to take the p!ss. It's Darwinism at it's most brutal and I'm afraid gingers have no place on God's great Earth. Next you'll be saying that Navigators have feelings too :E

And I bet you drive an Allegro!

Al-bert

31st May 2012, 21:47

Anyway, if you've never tried it don't knock it! Eh, what? Sorry, thought this was the RAF Club thread....:}

NutLoose

31st May 2012, 21:49

All a "slap head" means is one has grown up through ones hair, on the other hand ginger hair is The Mark of Cain.

.

Samuel

31st May 2012, 22:33

Whenurhappy:"For some of the older posters here, times have changed".

Well reluctant as I am to admit it, I am now officially "elderly" according to my GP and my Registered Nurse daughter [who somewhat unremarkably sounds very much like me at the same age!],and I like to think I've always looked upon alternative life-styles as being a matter of individual choice which was fine as long as it didn't, involve me! I was once complimented on my legs, but I suspect he'd only seen the back view!

I can even recall some official disapproval from a high level when an RNZAF Wg Cmdr was noted in SSOs to have resigned "due to the Air Board having lost confidence" in him. I can't say what official policy is now, but I somehow can't see Kiwis marching down Queen Street [not a pun, the main street in Auckland is Queen Street!] participating in Gay Pride, [which parades have incidentally been banned as being lewd!]

Willard Whyte

31st May 2012, 22:49

A slap head is just an ugly bloke that can't get laid. By a woman or a man.

Even a wig's better than a bone dome.

Tankertrashnav

1st Jun 2012, 08:50

Next you'll be saying that Navigators have feelings too http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

And I bet you drive an Allegro!

Hope there are no gay, red-headed, Allegro-driving navs on here!

TTN

(Straight, Ford driving slaphead ;))

Roland Pulfrew

1st Jun 2012, 09:35

Ford

Ford?? That's not an officer's car, is it? :}

blimey

1st Jun 2012, 11:03

Back to the topic:

The Austin Allegro was the car which marked the nadir of BMC design - it introduced the world to BMC's square wheel...or rather, 'quartic', as their optimistic advertisers described it.

It made driving in a straightish line using the knees only a breeze. Just think how much easier that would make texting - the design was years ahead of its time.

Dunky

1st Jun 2012, 11:40

My mother had an AllAggro, a 1500 in white with a black vinyl roof and quartic steering wheel. She didn't like it. I'm too young to really remember it, honest ;)

Melchett01

1st Jun 2012, 12:35

Rather a Ford than an Allegro. But then again I drive a VW. Great car, SATNAV is a bit limited, always seems to want to go east :E

But if you really do like the Allegro, all I can say is I've got to admire your balls. ;)

Whenurhappy

1st Jun 2012, 12:45

Samuel,

In the late 1980s there was an extremely talented Huey pilot in the RNZAF who came 'out' (the hint was he was living with a male cabin attendant) and expected - indeed hoped - to be chucked out. A pragmatic approach at the time - in spite of the usual dismissal - was to post him to be an Andover Captain, after the necessary conversion, as there was a shortage of aircrew. He stayed in for a couple more years, and occasionally brought his partner to informal mess events. No problems - the Flt Lt was a respected operator and a nice bloke and everyone at the time took his sexuality 'in their stride'.

The policy changed in teh early 1990s, if I recall correctly.

BEagle

1st Jun 2012, 16:17

The Allegro really was an awful POS - and usually in some horrible colour such as turd brown....:yuk: With a brown (hat?) vinyl roof....

Then there was the estate version which look and drove like a small hearse.

The least awful version was the 'Equipe':

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Austin_Allegro_Equipe.jpg

When it first came out, I was at a filling station of a BMC dealer's garage and asked in passing whether they'd had much interest in it. "Not a lot - they've only advertised it in 2 magazines. TV Times and Men Only. Funny how everyone said they saw the advert in the TV Times....!"

Mind you, I once borrowed the AEO's Austin Maxi to drive from the OM to the NAAFI shop to get some Branston pickle for my bar lunch cheese and pickle sarnie as the OM had run out. The Maxi had a 5-speed gearbox connected by saggy cables to the gearstick and I staggered up to the shop and back muttering "Give me a gear, God - anyone which goes forwards will do!". Much kangaroo-ing and burnt clutch later I made it back - sorry Thompo!

ShyTorque

1st Jun 2012, 16:52

But if you really do like the Allegro, all I can say is I've got to admire your balls.

OK, but you'll have to make an appointment, like all the rest. :E

Shell Management

1st Jun 2012, 19:09

I see nothing wrong wth pride in London in 2012.

And the Allegro is better than people remeber it.

Melchett01

1st Jun 2012, 19:23

ShyTorque,

If that's your idea of sweet talk, you might need to work on your technique:ok:

NutLoose

1st Jun 2012, 19:57

No, unlike the current advert that refers to a persistent cough possibly being the signs of lung cancer, in ShyTorque's case it is an attempt to get them to drop.. :E hence the need for an appointment to allow him time to prepare.

.

ShyTorque

1st Jun 2012, 20:02

At my age, it's more of a worry about them hitting the floor when I step off the pavement.... :ooh:

500N

1st Jun 2012, 20:22

Austin Maxi's weren't that bad. Never liked the Allegro.

How about the Morris Marina in that yuk mustard yellow ?

Pontius Navigator

1st Jun 2012, 21:41

Ford?? That's not an officer's car, is it? :}

Around 1966 I guess, when we were allowed to drink at lunchtime, mess tannoy went and announced that the car of our dreams the car we always wanted the car of the year

or some such blurb

was outside the mess, the brand new Ford Capri.

One or two, between beers, drifted out to see what the fuss was about and returned pdq to say that there was a 2-door Ford with a long bonnet outside and where's my pint.

Couple of years later, to some derision, our sqn ldr plotter bought a 3l version. His excuse was his brother worked a Ford dealership.

Samuel

1st Jun 2012, 22:21

Austin Maxi's weren't that bad. Never liked the Allegro.

How about the Morris Marina in that yuk mustard yellow ?

BMC products in the UK were all made on Mondays and Fridays and were rubbish whichever day they were assembled...I'm reluctant to say built! Possibly the best Marina was the taxi used in Singapore and converted to a Nissan diesel which added about a 1000-fold reliability factor.

To be fair, BMC in it's various forms not only built bad cars in the UK, but in Australia too, where British Leyland [Australia] built such monstrosities as the Leyland P76 and an even worse version of the Morris Marina called the Austin Freeway which had a 6-cylinder engine.

500N

1st Jun 2012, 22:25

Samuel

Agree.

My first introduction to the Marina was my Grand mother had one in the UK,
second intro was my brother purchased one over here in Aus. never seemed to go that well !!!

I went Ford Escort !

I must say that going from the UK to Australia, where my father had a Grenda Wagon which we thought was pretty powerful with it's engine then coming to Aust where most things had 3ltr+ 6 Cylinders, it was a real eye opener and that was before you got onto the V8's !!!

ShyTorque

1st Jun 2012, 22:27

Pal of mine was made to drive a brand new Marina as a company car. It lasted 100 miles then the back axle seized because no-one had bothered to put oil in it.

He was quite glad.

NutLoose

2nd Jun 2012, 03:01

Officers never bought Fords because they did not have the style that would look the part, however...

http://www.stmodelmakers.co.uk/images/noddy_01_lg.jpg

:E
There was one thing worse than an Allegro and that was the attempt to take it upmarket as the Vanden Plas with it's cheesy grill and naff interior.

Old Fella

2nd Jun 2012, 06:50

Samuel, I suspect that you, like many whom deride the P76, never owned one. I did, for five (5) years and it was one of the better cars I have owned. Maybe I was lucky, mine being one of the last 4.4 litre all alloy V8's built. More than a few Holden and Ford V8 drivers of the day were more than a little embarrassed to be "dusted off" by the P76. Comfort was far superior to either the Holden or Falcon, the boot was cavernous and it handled well. Fuel economy was more than reasonable in comparison to the "Big Two". Sure, panel fit and overall quality control was lacking. but I regretted for a long time having sold it to buy a Mitsubishi Sigma 2.6 litre 5 Speed which, as it turns out, was made "Car of the Year" by that well known motoring journalist and "cross-dresser" of the time, the late Peter Wherrett. The Sigma was the real lemon, not the P76.